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Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it
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Subject: Why and how we age From: Ed T Date: 02 May 08 - 06:44 PM Why do we age, and is there anything we can do about it? Do we have a "best before date" in our genes, and can we just reach this age with good lifestyle choices? Or, are good lifestyle choices a major factor in extending life significantly? http://www.thetech.org/genetics/news.php?id=10 |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: Ed T Date: 02 May 08 - 06:46 PM Sorry, intended this for non music thread. Maybe my age is showing:) |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 02 May 08 - 07:07 PM Here's a partial answer. have you seen the recent publicity about the female twins separated at birth and reunited at 35? One is a smoker and looks ten years older than her sister. Their picture should be posted in girls' room everywhere. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: Little Hawk Date: 02 May 08 - 07:47 PM There are plenty of things you can do to lengthen your life. Exercise. Don't smoke. Drink little or no alcohol. Avoid stress. Take as few drugs as possible (and I mean the prescription type in particular). Eat a good diet. Don't overeat. Keep your sugar intake low. Keep your mental attitude positive and happy. After they're all done, though, you're still gonna die. So the question, I guess, is what you want your life to be like between now and then, isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp Date: 02 May 08 - 07:56 PM Most people age too soon because they ain't tough enough, that's why. You gotta drink heavy and smoke good cigars so as to toughen up yer system. You gotta swear, get in fights, and raise hell to stay young. You gotta bust chairs over people's heads and paint the town red to keep yer joints limber. You gotta go out with fast dames and drive fast cars. You gotta break some of the rules. I know. I done it all. I still feel young and I got started at this game when Bogart was still a hot feature and movies cost 25 cents or less. I can't figure why Bogart got old, come to think of it, cos he was basically pretty much on the right track. Bacall too. Geez. Maybe humans just ain't made tough enough. It helps to be a mean bastard too. Most of the really mean bastards I've ever known just seem to go on forever if they don't happen to die by violence... |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: bobad Date: 02 May 08 - 07:58 PM "Drink little or no alcohol." Studies have shown that men who drink alcohol in moderation live longer than those who abstain. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: Art Thieme Date: 02 May 08 - 09:01 PM It's all about time! As I'm fond of saying, "If it wasn't for time, we'd have to do everything all at once!!" Be thankful for what you get. Art |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: Ed T Date: 02 May 08 - 09:02 PM http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=4385601&page=1 |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: Ed T Date: 02 May 08 - 09:10 PM And some life advice from Sir Walter Raleigh: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3525449.ece |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: JohnInKansas Date: 02 May 08 - 09:10 PM Studies have shown that the best way to assure a good probability of a long and healthy life is to have parents whose grandparents are still alive and healthy at your birth. Several genetic markers have been found that appear to produce a tendency toward more rapid aging. One or two markers have been found that appear to do the opposite, retarding the aging process up to a point, but even those fortunate enough to have inherited those "good genes" may have also inherited several of the less wanted kind in the mix. Laboratory tests, primarily with rats, have shown that a very low calorie diet can produce reductions in the rate of aging; but the necessary reductions in food intake are pretty extreme, and easily can lead to inadequate nutrition (which can kill you long before your time). A few well-known "researchers" are attempting to live forever by this method, but we won't know if it really works until they finally die to give us an end-point for the experiment. Extreme starvation - or close to it - seems to be necessary to significantly slow the aging process, but keeping the diet moderate and weight within low-normal range does provide some protection against "bulk-related" ailments such as diabetes and some cardiac burdens in later life. While exposure to infectious agents can do you in at any time, studies have shown that not being exposed to common "diseases" in early childhood can leave you with an undeveloped immune system that makes you very much more susceptible to diseases later in life. Children raised in homes where there are pets (dogs were specifically recommended in a couple of studies) have been found to have a significantly reduced susceptiblity to asthma and related respiratory diseases. A recent study has found evidence for the conclusion that chidren in day-care or "play groups" prior to age 2 to 5 may have a significantly reduced susceptibility to forms of leukemia common in pre-adolescents. (More study required on this last one.) Moderate alcohol intake has been suggested as something that will reduce the likelihood of some kinds of cardiac failures, but there's a fine line between the "dose" that helps the heart, and the dose that destroys the liver. (I've had several friends who went just slightly over the line, and "had" is the operative word.) Enjoying life as you find it actually does seem to help prolong life, although much of the purported "reasearch" published on this aspect of longevity and aging is pure bullshit. Despite the hype, some legitimate research does suggest that there's something of merit in a good attitude; and you'll have a lot more fun if you avoid being overly bitter about the tricks She plays on you. John |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: Art Thieme Date: 02 May 08 - 09:13 PM Anyone who gets 101 years, ought to know that there are better things to do with their time than run marathons! Many of my good friends get all the exercise they need being pall bearers for people who run marathons. Art |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: Ed T Date: 02 May 08 - 09:28 PM Maybe this guy is onto something, but would life be worth it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYQcZyB1tBY |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 02 May 08 - 09:34 PM "why do we age?" good grief. Now, back to whatever I was doing. as I pour myself another shot of B&B and light up another Number 7. biLL |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: bobad Date: 02 May 08 - 09:44 PM "Moderate alcohol intake has been suggested as something that will reduce the likelihood of some kinds of cardiac failures" It appears to have somewhat more benefits than that: From: http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Controversies/1088441583.html Alcohol reduces heart attacks, ichemic strokes and circulatory problems through a number of identified ways. They include: 1. Improving blood lipid profile by increasing HDL ("good") cholesterol and decreasing LDL ("bad") cholesterol. 2. Decreasing thrombosis (blood clotting) by reducing platelet aggregation, reducing fibrinogen (a blood clotter) and increasing fibrinolysis (the process by which clots dissolve). 3. Other ways such as increasing coronary blood flow, reducing blood pressure, and reducing blood insulin level. The moderate consumption of alcohol appears to be more effective than most other lifestyle changes that are used to lower the risk of heart and other diseases. For example, the average person would need to follow a very strict low-fat diet, exercise vigorously on a regular basis, eliminate salt from the diet, lose a substantial amount of weight, and probably begin medication in order to lower cholesterol by 30 points or blood pressure by 20 points. But medical research suggests that alcohol can have a greater impact on heart disease than even these hard-won reductions in cholesterol levels or blood pressure. Only cessation of smoking is more effective. Additionally, other medical research suggests that adding alcohol to a healthful diet is more effective than just following the diet alone. After reviewing the research on heart diseases and stroke, Dr. David Whitten reported that "we don't have any drugs that are as good as alcohol and noted investigator Dr. Curtis Ellison asserted that "abstinence from alcohol is a major risk factor for coronary heart disease." The moderate consumption of alcohol appears to be beneficial in reducing or preventing even more diseases and health problems including angina pectoris bone fractures and osteoporosis, diabetes, digestive ailments, duodenal ulcer, erectile dysfunction (ED), essential tremors, gallstones, hearing loss, hepatitis A, kidney stones, liver disease, macular degeneration (a major cause of blindness), pancreatic cancer, Parkinson's disease, poor cognition and memory, poor physical condition in elderly, rheumatoid arthritis, stress and depression, and type B gastritis. It's not surprising that the science-based Harvard Healthy Eating Pyramid recommends the regular moderate consumption of alcohol (beer, wine, or spirits) unless contraindicated. It's clear that the moderate consumption of alcohol improves health and increases longevity. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age is there anything we c From: Ed T Date: 02 May 08 - 10:20 PM Random quotes: "I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them." - Ian L. Fleming "Maybe this world is another planet's Hell." - Aldous Huxley "We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time." - Vince Lombardi "Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome." - Isaac Asimov "I'll sleep when I'm dead." - Warren Zevon "Fill what's empty, empty what's full, and scratch where it itches." - the Duchess of Windsor, when asked what is the secret of a long and happy life "Luck is the residue of design." - Branch Rickey "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Albert Einstein "Everything has been figured out, except how to live." - Jean-Paul Sartre "The graveyards are full of indispensable men." - Charles de Gaulle "If women didn't exist, all the money in the world would have no meaning."- Aristotle Onassis "The cynics are right nine times out of ten." - Henry Louis Mencken Attention to health is life's greatest hindrance." - Plato "I don't feel good." - The last words of Luther Burbank (1849-1926) "I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying." - Woody Allen Being on the tightrope is living; everything else is waiting." - Karl Wallenda "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC, AKA Marcus Porcius Cato) "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." - last words of Pancho Villa I'd like to end the book a lot of ways. Except I don't have any answers. Use your common sense. Be nice. This is the best I can do. All the trouble in the world is human trouble. Well, that's not true. But when cancer cells run amok and burst out of the prostate and take over the liver and lymph glands and end up killing everything in the body including themselves, they certainly are acting like some humans we know. PJ O'Rourke "I would have made a good Pope." - Richard M. Nixon |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Little Hawk Date: 02 May 08 - 10:29 PM "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Albert Einstein Yeah!!! I love that. Way to go, Albert! That's exactly how I see it. I don't believe this place is the real thing, I honestly don't. It simply couldn't be. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Little Hawk Date: 02 May 08 - 10:50 PM The best way to stop the aging process is to die. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: Amos Date: 02 May 08 - 11:01 PM Ed: I believe that first quote belongs not to Ian Fleming, but to Jack London (1876-1916).
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: Ed T Date: 03 May 08 - 12:43 AM Maybe so Amos? Strange, but different internet quotation sites attribute it to either one or the other? Curiously, both of these folks seemed to also have been accused of plagiarism. However, London's accusations are broad, and he seemed to even admitted to such: "I, in the course of making my living by turning journalism into literature, used material from various sources which had been collected and narrated by men who made their living by turning the facts of life into journalism." |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Jeanie Date: 03 May 08 - 04:50 AM It rather depends on what you mean by "ageing" and being "old". I have come across perfectly healthy people who have become so preoccupied with their fear of death - premature or otherwise - that much of their time is spent thinking and talking about cholesterol, blood pressure, aches, exercise, etc., etc., to the exclusion of pretty much everything else. Boy, oh, boy, are these people self-centered, boring and *OLD* (no matter what their chronological age may be) ! Living ceases to be an exciting and enjoyable process for them. Lively, positive people tend to avoid their company and they end up leading isolated lives or keeping company only with other people just like themselves, in a downward spiral. All this negativity may lead to their actually *becoming* ill and to premature ageing. Then there are people who are the opposite (again, no matter what their chronological age). The other day, I was watching on You Tube a couple of interviews that Michael Parkinson had with that great (and then chronologically old) actress Edith Evans. She's well worth watching. I don't suppose for one moment that that lady ever gave a thought to how "old" she was. For me, she's an example of how having your own inner spirit (the "real" you, if you like) to the fore throughout your life makes physical or negative or chronological constraints pale into insignificance. That lady never grew old. Here's one of her pieces of advice: "Don't worry. Just do your best. That's all you can do. If you do your best, good things will come." When I don't grow old, I want to be like Edith Evans ! - jeanie |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: Amos Date: 03 May 08 - 11:05 AM Ed, I hear ya. The Internet is riddled with quotes being attributed to people who hadn't been born when they were first published. It annpys me. A |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: gnu Date: 03 May 08 - 11:13 AM LH... "There are plenty of things you can do to lengthen your life. Exercise. Don't smoke. Drink little or no alcohol. Avoid stress. Take as few drugs as possible (and I mean the prescription type in particular). Eat a good diet. Don't overeat. Keep your sugar intake low. Keep your mental attitude positive and happy." I'm SCREWED! |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: gnu Date: 03 May 08 - 11:17 AM Hmmm... I suppose the only reason I am still alive is that I gave up smokin dope a long, long time ago. Otherwise, I would still enjoy eating sweets and that low sugar intake is my only hope. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Little Hawk Date: 03 May 08 - 02:02 PM Well....I guess you could just throw caution to the winds, gnu, do EVERYTHING that I advised you not to do, do them all to extreme excess, and go out in a blaze of hedonistic glory! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: Bat Goddess Date: 03 May 08 - 02:08 PM Some years ago there was a book published entitled "One Hundred Over One Hundred" or something like that. It profiled 100 people who were 100 years old. They tried to find the common thread, but some smoked and some did not, some drank alcohol and some did not, some were vegetarians, others omnivores, etcet etcet. The ONLY thing they all had in common was that most had no children and no one had more than one child. Linn |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Little Hawk Date: 03 May 08 - 02:10 PM Ah hah! I have no children! Dang. This means I may be around a good deal longer in this world than I had planned on. Crap. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: Ed T Date: 03 May 08 - 03:01 PM "Hmmm... I suppose the only reason I am still alive is that I gave up smokin dope a long, long time ago" But, though it may be longer, does your life now seem shorter...than with the dope? |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: Victor in Mapperton Date: 03 May 08 - 04:09 PM Eat less, I know twins, one is a hell of a lot heavier than the other due to a diet of McDonald's and every product Cadbury's has on the market. Watching your diet helps in a lot of ways, your less likely to suffer diabetes,stroke or heart disease and clothing obviously looks better adding to improved self esteem and attitude. So much flack heads towards the smoker and drinker these days, those that grow a second arse tend to get the pardon. Loose weight, look younger. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Little Hawk Date: 03 May 08 - 04:22 PM Yeah, there's a fella here in town name of Hugh Jass who didn't follow your advice on that. Me, I've been "underweight" all my life. I did notice I was developing a wee potbelly in the last couple of years....but doing 50 situps a day seems to have fairly much cured that. It wasn't fat, it was lack of muscle tone in the stomach muscles. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: gnu Date: 04 May 08 - 04:55 AM I don't have any children either... so, I gotta put up with another fifty years of LH's questions? Pass me a bong. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: BK Lick Date: 04 May 08 - 05:34 AM The physicist John Wheeler, known for having coined the terms black hole and wormhole, famously said "Time is what keeps things from happening all at once." He died two weeks ago at the age of 96. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: GUEST,Ed T Date: 04 May 08 - 12:22 PM Sorry did not put my name on the last post. This guy claims to have the secret to long life. Maybe someone should check back with him in a few years? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPCkZaJvMjc |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Little Hawk Date: 04 May 08 - 03:38 PM Jeezus FLIP! And I thought Shane was dumb. My gawd. That guy is Shane, cleaned up, modernized, and on steroids or something. gnu. I did not pose the question that launched this thread, okay? ;-) Someone else did. Anyway, you won't have to put up with listening to my questions for another 50 years, because I will be long gone long, long before that. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: gnu Date: 04 May 08 - 05:14 PM Okay. But, you do ask a lot of questions, LH. And some good ones too. ;-) I just don't know if I can handle them in your old age. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 May 08 - 05:35 PM Maybe there's a pointer here... BS: OBIT: Albert Hoffman, father of LSD, 102 |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: John O'L Date: 04 May 08 - 08:01 PM Aubrey de Grey doesn't think we need to age. He spins a very interesting yarn here about why we need not. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: GRex Date: 05 May 08 - 04:59 AM As a 'wrinkly' of some years standing, I have found that in addition to diet, exercise and relaxation it's important to 'Use it or Lose it'. This applies to muscle, brain and voice. GRex |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Little Hawk Date: 05 May 08 - 08:26 AM That Aubrey de Grey is intriguing. ;-) He certainly is sure of himself isn't he? I don't necessarily buy it, but he's interesting. His beard looks like a relic from the (USA) Civil War era. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Bill D Date: 05 May 08 - 11:54 AM Many years ago, publisher J. I. Rodale, an advocate of organic farming, died of a heart attack during taping of the Dick Cavette show. Shortly before he suffered the heart attack he had predicted, "I'm planning to live to be 100." |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Little Hawk Date: 05 May 08 - 05:17 PM Oh? So how old was he when he died, Bill? |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: autolycus Date: 05 May 08 - 05:31 PM 72 according to wiki. In answer to the thread question, tell me of one single organism that is immortal? Or one animal that doesn't age. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Little Hawk Date: 05 May 08 - 05:37 PM Everything in our time-space continuum seems to age. Even suns and planets. I think it's written into the program. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: gnu Date: 05 May 08 - 05:43 PM That's what I need... a program. Where can I get one? Are they complimentary in the loge? |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 06 May 08 - 01:01 PM Autolycus, I think one could consider MOST (if not all, just to be safe here) single-cell animals immortal. They divide or separate, and each one of the successors has all of the parent's characteristics. Now there's two of "him", but no one died. And so ad infinitum. Of course an antibiotic like penicillin can prevent cell division of bacteria, say, or drastically slow the rate at which it occurs, but it doesn't kill them off. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: gnu Date: 06 May 08 - 01:36 PM Would that be long division? sub... sorry |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: GUEST,Ed.T Date: 06 May 08 - 03:28 PM Etienne-Emile Beaulieu on aging. http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2007/01/04/2/a-conversation-about-aging-and-longevity |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: autolycus Date: 06 May 08 - 05:09 PM Thanks Uncle Dave. Well that's the answer to can we do anything about it. YES. BECOME SINGLE CELL ORGANISMS What could ne easier? ck! Next? Ivor |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Liz the Squeak Date: 06 May 08 - 05:45 PM Everybody ages... the trick is to do it as disreputably as possible. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 May 08 - 05:47 PM That Aubrey de Grey certainly looks all of 45 - and then some... |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: skarpi Date: 06 May 08 - 05:57 PM Why do we age and is there anything we can do about it? why should we do anything about it ??? why should we try to change mother nature ? ATB Skarpi |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: Victor in Mapperton Date: 06 May 08 - 06:24 PM For a man in the evening of his life such as myself a smile from a young lady is as good as a tonic ! |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: gnu Date: 06 May 08 - 06:31 PM Ain't that the best? A smile. And, yes, before all the negative comments.... a smile from a young lady can make us old lads feel grand for days, if only from the memmories. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Little Hawk Date: 06 May 08 - 06:58 PM He claims to be 158, McGrath, but I'm not quite sure if he was serious or not when he said that. It's a little hard to tell. He has a beard which looks like something you'd have seen in the mid to late 1800s. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: john f weldon Date: 06 May 08 - 08:49 PM We age in order to die, and we die to allow novelty into the universe. This was written for the film "To Be" to be The last verse went: "A simple fact, sad but true Nothing's fun unless it's new. That's why we takes turns to see What it's like... ...to Be." |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: autolycus Date: 07 May 08 - 02:07 AM CK!! I've only been here 62 years and already this youthful, gadget-loving universe wants novelty. Hasn't the universe compared how long it's been here with how lng I have. If we want novelty, WHAT ABOUT A NEW UNIVERSE,hm? Ivor |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: Wyrd Sister Date: 07 May 08 - 01:45 PM "Youth is a gift of Nature: age is a work of art" Fridge magnet so don't know attribution. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: GUEST,PMB Date: 08 May 08 - 07:12 AM The way I see it, it's pretty obvious. We have evolved to last long enough to reproduce and set up the next generation in working order. For some animals, like salmon, that's as soon as the eggs are laid. In some spiders the males don't even last beyond the mating. For us, it's long enough to supply the brats with the information to get going. So anything beyond when the kids hit 20 or so is superfluous from a genetic point of view. Our genes aren't designed (by selection) to keep us healthy thereafter. Because we have also developed memetic transmission, there are some advantages in longer life, but these haven't had time or selective pressure to translate back into genes yet- and in any case, the memetic value might be greater if transmitted by an obviously older person. As far as the ecosystem is concerned, once we've done our job, the sooner the carbon is recycled the better. So we're Breaking the Rules by being here at all. Hands up all those who like breaking rules! |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Zen Date: 08 May 08 - 08:06 AM Then there is telomere shortening and cell senescence but no strong consensus on whether this is a cause, or consequence, of the ageing process. Zen |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Mr Red Date: 08 May 08 - 08:07 AM Lie I do. thirty ten since you ask. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: autolycus Date: 08 May 08 - 05:17 PM Ivor |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: gnu Date: 08 May 08 - 05:30 PM Wise indeed. I agree. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: Midchuck Date: 08 May 08 - 10:07 PM We are created by sperms and ova as a means of making more sperms and ova. Once that's done, we're of no further use - except, as has been pointed out above, to nurture the next generation until they're old enough to manage on their own. Accepting this gives one a remarkable sense of freedom, once the children have moved out. If you're one of the lucky ones whose children do move out, at the appropriate time. Peter |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: bobad Date: 08 May 08 - 10:26 PM Apoptosis. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do abou From: Paul Burke Date: 09 May 08 - 04:04 AM Apoptosis is ever with us. |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: theleveller Date: 09 May 08 - 08:43 AM As George Burns pointed out - "getting old isn't so bad when you consider the alternative". |
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Subject: RE: Why do we age-is there anything we can do about it From: Mr Red Date: 09 May 08 - 08:51 AM He and Maurice Chevalier. |
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