BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia

Subject: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 May 08 - 02:54 PM

A white tavern owner in Marietta Georgia is selling a T Shirt with the image of Curious George (a monkey character) eating a banana. The caption on the shirt under the image reads "Obama in'08".

The local black residents are picketing the tavern and claiming ouright racism. The white tavern owner does not see it that way. He says the shirts are selling like hot cakes and he is donating all the proceed to charity.

Having seen a video of the shirt I would have to agree with the protestors that the message is blatantly racist.

The sad thing is that this portends a racist and divisive presidential campaign that America does not need when the message is supposed to be one of healing and bringing America together.

                                                    SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:04 PM

It could be interpreted as racist, certainly.

Now...would a chimp or monkey caricature of George Bush be considered racist? No. Such caricatures of George Bush are very common and no one calls them "racist".

So whether people interpret such a caricature AS racist appears to be determined primarily by which specific race (of the person in question) it is directed at rather than by the intent or the content of the caricature itself. Isn't that a little bit odd?

Does it tell you anything about what is fashionably acceptable at the moment and what is not?

What I am saying is that some forms of implicit racism in our societr draw no comment at all from people while others cause them to be up in arms. The mass media have done much to exacerbate that situation by pandering to certain fears or prejudices and totally ignoring others.

This is unjust, as it is unequal treatment of people.

I am not, by the way, approving of the T-shirt. I'm just commenting on the larger situation all around us as regards people's perceptions of "racism".

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:33 PM

I have a considerable number of old postcards from family albums and such. Some, from the period 1890-1910, present Irish as monkeys.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:43 PM

If this country is libertine, then every person will be exposed to a certain amount of material that they think is offensive. Live with it. It means that you also have the right to express yourself and not be censored. Just two sides of the same coin.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:43 PM

It is naive to believe that racism is not a major factor in this election as it still remains so in the United States. It doesn't need any stirring, it will surface all by its hideous self. Its an insidious kind of racism often in hiding and never spoken, but believe me it is there. With no help from anyone else, racism is more than capable of holding its own and defeating Obama without so much as the slightest remark from any of his opponents.

Yep, its a racist shirt but as Hawk points out above, do we say the same type of things about ugly shirts pointed at Bush? Of course not......he's white and a jackass and deserves it---LOL.......Its a shame it still goes on even in a nice suburb of Atlanta, although all of May-retta isn't so nice......and MARTA, the transit (bus/rail) system in Atlanta is said by seemingly nice folks as "Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta."

Its out there folks.....it may not be here in our discussions and at the Obama rallies but at the morning coffee clatches across America's "heartland" it still grows and divides.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:56 PM

A part of me wants to say "Let him get away with it". The man who printed the shirts is probably loving the attention he is getting. Remove the audience of offended protesters and all of the joy he's having will be eliminated. I've found the best way to handle someone who tells an offensive joke is to look at them and ask "You really think that joke is funny?" and then just walk away.....

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:39 PM

Living in Canada, little racism is seen; it is out there, but not to the extent seen in much of the U. S. Some of the emails I receive from the south and southwest would be actionable in courts in Canada. Catspaw is correct, unfortunately.

I wish there was a site designated on a blog I received a couple of days ago, or I could give it as an example.
It denegrates every member of Obama's family. They are extreme Muslims, radical leftists, cultural Marxists, fellow travelers, communist symphathizers and atheists, etc. Did you know that the Unitarians are left-wing? The Unitarian Church is known as 'the little Red Church'). That Mercer Island High School, WA, was a hotbed of pro-Marxism, and was discussed by the House Un-American Activities Subcommittee? Etc. etc. Perhaps most damning, his mother worked for the Ford Foundation and promoted microlending.
A rather peculiar assertion is that there is no proof that Obama Sr. and Barack's mother were ever married (a peculiar assertion, because there is proof of the divorce, thus marriage was there to be dissolved).
It also impugns the people of Indonesia among others.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:15 PM

Spaw is right: racism is a giant, albeit unspoken, issue that's not going to go away. An Obama presidency would go a long way towards healing this national cancer, but even that hugely significant event wouldn't completely resolve the psychic residue of century upon century of nasty history.

The whole business is so screwy, our common national psyche is so confused, that multiple injustices to both black and white public personalities are unavoidable.

For example: it is perfectly acceptable, and considered unavoidable and no-big-deal, for Obama to court black voters. But Hillary can't speak of making a parallel appeal to white voters without being understood and interpreted as somehow racist.

Now, I don't say this out of excessive sympathy for Ms Clinton ~ actually, I support for Obama and indeed voted for him my state's primary. I'm just pointing out an inconsistency that seems to be unavoidable and is difficult for anyone to live with.

Of course, the t-shirt in question certainly seems to be offensive. Nonetheless, for some folks (however unenlightened) to wear it in public and inspire reactions might not be so terrible a thing, if it prompts people to honestly voice their agreement or disagreement, etc., and bring some of this huge unspoken concern out into the light.

For the record, I really like Curious George. It's really a shame that his cute little innocent image should be dragged into this.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: GUEST, - godless in Seattle
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:35 PM

"They are extreme Muslims, radical leftists, cultural Marxists, fellow travelers, communist symphathizers and atheists, etc."

This says a great deal about American politics. No one bats an eyelid at the inclusion of atheists in such a list.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:55 PM

Racism hasn't been eradicated from the US. It has only gone underground. Most racists now know that they can no longer express their opinions openly without attracting heaps of scorn on themselves, at the very least.

Also, it's easy for people to pretend they are not racist as long as they are safe and prosperous. Put them under stress, get them feeling scared or angry, and the racism (and lots of other ugly stuff) comes to the surface.

Hurricane Katrina provided enough stress to show us how much racism is just below the surface.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Jeri
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:12 PM

I honestly don't know what was in the guy's heart. I saw an interview with him in which the interviewer was acting like a complete asshole, acting as if he were SURE the guy meant it as racist even if he said it was based mostly on Curious George's ears and hairline and smile.

The picture I saw of Curious George looked like his face was white,

The guy might have meant it in a racist way, but I had a bit of a reaction to the surety of the news guy and others who are so sure: what sort of a racist assumes if it's a monkey it HAS to be aimed at a black person? Who is it associating a monkey with black people? The guy with the shirt or everyone with their knickers in a twist? It's racist... I'm just not sure who the racists are.

Another question I have is what is this stupid shit supposed to be distracting people from?

Listen, I think Obama isn't perfect, but he's needed right now and I'm very likely going to vote for him. I'm also, as a white woman over 50, not in his demographic. The more Hillary talks, the less I can stand listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: meself
Date: 14 May 08 - 08:35 PM

Some of you might find it enlightening to read this review. Don't be put off by the obvious inaccuracy of the opening phrase:   "Crude historical depictions of African Americans as ape-like may have disappeared from mainstream U.S. culture ... "

And why would anyone think this: '"Despite widespread opposition to racism, bias remains with us ... African Americans are still dehumanized; we're still associated with apes in this country. ... "?

And I don't suppose this image
has any racist implications either - after all, it's science ...

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: heric
Date: 14 May 08 - 10:26 PM

The marginalized dregs who would find humour in such activities are marginalized for a reason, and they do not warrant any attention. Do we expect a 100% non-racist society, where it is impossible to find such people and put them in a newspaper article? Of course not. Any publicity they receive is degrading to the rest of us. Look upward. Look forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 May 08 - 10:27 PM

"If this country is libertine..."pdq

Libertine:

a person who is morally or sexually unrestrained, esp. a dissolute man; a profligate; rake.
2. a freethinker in religious matters.
3. a person freed from slavery in ancient Rome.
–adjective 4. free of moral, esp. sexual, restraint; dissolute; licentious.
5. freethinking in religious matters.
6. Archaic. unrestrained; uncontrolled.

Libertarian:

a person who advocates liberty, esp. with regard to thought or conduct.
2. a person who maintains the doctrine of free will (distinguished from necessitarian).
–adjective 3. advocating liberty or conforming to principles of liberty.
4. maintaining the doctrine of free will.

Which one did you have in mind, pdq? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: meself
Date: 14 May 08 - 10:28 PM

Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: meself
Date: 14 May 08 - 10:29 PM

{Cross-posting alert: my previous was responding to heric's).

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 08 - 10:53 PM

Ebbie,

I don't like the term "libertarian" because it has been corrupted by the Libertarian Party whom I consider a cofused lot. The founding fathers would propably appreciate the use of the term "libertine", but modern times suggest that "libertarian" is better. But note, "small l".

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 May 08 - 11:59 PM

A friend of mine sent me this when we were discussing the t-shirt. He;'s referring to an email he recieved:

One I received from a total ChristoNazi moron showed a picture of Obama with the title Planet of Apes over it. It was at the end of a stupid screed about flag pins.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:27 AM

Racism hasn't been eradicated from the US. It has only gone underground. Most racists now know that they can no longer express their opinions openly without attracting heaps of scorn on themselves, at the very least.

Nor from the rest of the world!
Passing a law that openly espousing racism is illegal does not change an individuals outlook.
It merely stops them expressing it.
If I encounter someone who is openly racist I ask them why & try to encourage debate which MAY change their outlook. In most cases, the misconceptions are so ingrained that they will not change but there is always that chance ...
Depicting politicians as monkeys has always been fashionable regardless of race so I agree with Jeri - some times, racism is in the eye of the beholder!

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:51 AM

This George the monkey doesn't support Obama. The image might offend Chongo though. If people's only objection to Obama is that he's sort of brownish, he must be winning on all other fronts.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 May 08 - 05:52 AM

I knew the Republicans would win the 2008 elections when I heard the Democrats had a woman and a black man running. This country is too racist to elect Obama and too sexist to elect Hillary. McCain skates in to an easy win and we suffer the ill effects. Those elephants must be laughing in their martinis.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 08 - 12:39 PM

NO way, Naes. We weren't ready for a moron in 2000, but we got one. Same could be applied for a woman or mixed race man!

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:04 PM

Regarding the t-shirt that some folks wouldn't find offensive and feel shouldn't be perceived as offensive to Black people. Here's a little litmus test for y'all.

I would wear this t-shirt to an all-Black bar in Harlem and everyone would enjoy my sense of humour.

Y             N

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:22 PM

Curious George? Isn't that copyright infringement?

Besides that, Curious George is not such a bad comparison. He's inquisitive and lovable (maybe a bit impulsive) but heh, its better to be innocent and curious than apathetic or aggressive.

Yes, racism is still around but why give it life by breathing into it. Let the racists dig their own graves. Ignorance does not deserve so much attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 08 - 01:57 PM

I cannot stand Curious George! They show him on PBS-kids...stupid monkey chitters with the stupidest voicing...it's revolting. My grandson really likes him, though, so sometimes I stomach the show.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:15 PM

I resent the fact that once again my given name, a name which once had dignity and respect in society, has been foisted onto some ridiculous cartoon or comic book character!

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 May 08 - 02:22 PM

I was introduced to Curious George through his books, which we discovered when our kids were young (1977-90). I think the books date back even further, perhaps even as far as my own childhood, but I didn't see them when I was a kid.

Encountering the animated George much more recently (in the company of a 3-year-old granddaughter, and in the feature-length movie before the TV series) was a pleasant-enough reintroduction.

However, I can see that meeting the onscreen PBS George first, before encountering the books (wherein he speaks with my voice when read aloud), might well produce a negative reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 15 May 08 - 03:00 PM

"Curious George" has been in book form since 1941. First editions are scarce, about $500 in good condition, and around $5000 for a very fine copy.
The REY cards, much later, are worth $300 or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:36 PM

Hmmm...wonder why I never had them for my kids? Maybe it's because they heard more of the Jungle Books, James Herriot, Mother Goose, and Childcraft books and Dr. Seuss, etc.

I can't remember when I first was aware of CG, possibly when my kids were in preschool or at a babysitter's. I guess I wasn't that impressed, nor did they seem to be.:-)

LH, you and Geo. Washington, both!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:17 AM

Peace - I would wear this t-shirt to an all-Black bar in Harlem and everyone would enjoy my sense of humour.

Y             N

I may be obtuse or maybe its because I live in the UK but that makes no sense at all to me. (am I missing something or is it a US thing?)

But because it means nothing to me I would have no reason to be offended by it which strengthens my last statement - sometimes, racism is in the eye of the beholder!

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:13 AM

Black Hawk, I'm going to take the liberty to respond to the question you asked Peace.

Harlem is a neighborhood in the New York City borough of Manhattan, long known as a major African-American cultural and business center. Here's my
friendly amendment to Bruce's statement:

I would wear this t-shirt to any bar in Harlem, or any church in Harlem, or walking down any street in Harlem, and everyone would enjoy my sense of humour [humor].

Y       N

-snip-

The word "everyone" in Peace's statement and my amendment to his statement has two built in assumptions:

1. that the person is White or at least non-Black or non-Brown who is wearing the Curious George eating a banana image with "Obama 08" written underneath that image

2. that people are Black {meaning African American or of African descent and/or the people are non-Black and non-Brown [in this context, "Brown" meaning Puerto Rican or of some other Hispanic [Latino] descent}

-snip-

The obvious answer is "N".
It would be rare for a Black or Brown person to wear such a
tee-shirt because we understand that such a depiction is meant to denigrate all Black and Brown people and not just Senator Barack Obama. However, "everyone" is probably too high a bar to cross.

After all, we Black people still have our Uncle Toms and our Aunt Jemimas who attempt to ingratiate themselves to White folks and who act in other ways that are detrimental to their individual best interest and to their racial group's best interest.

Also, I would assume that a good many White people in Harlem and elsewhere would also recognize the cultural tropes that are built into such a tee-shirt, and also take offense the attempt to equate that image with Senator Barack Obama.

For more on the pejorative term "Uncle Tom" and it's female equivalent, "Aunt Jemina", click http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:27 AM

There are significant differences to using Curious George or any monkey or chimp as a reference to Barack Obama and a depiction of George W. Bush as Curious George or any other monkey or chimp.

When George W. Bush is referred to as "Curious George", there is a play on the words "George" and well as on the words "curious" [Since GWB appears to be incurious, meaning "lacking in intelligence".

Also, some people believe that George Bush's facial features and body stance {the way he holds his arms} resemble a monkey.

However, these are put downs of an individual, and not of an entire race.

Senator Obama is highly intelligent. No sane, non-racist person could consider him to be incurious.

To call Senator Obama a monkey {Curious George} is highly offensive for the same reasons that former Senator George Allen's referring to an American of East Indian descent "macaca" was so offensive. To use such terms and depictions are denigations of entire races of Black and Brown people since those depictions and those references are built upon the racist beliefs that Black and Brown people are still on the evolutionary level of monkeys, chimps, or apes and that we are not fully human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:56 AM

Unfortunately, over the last 20 or so years I have lived in areas aith large numbers of people who if you had a million years to deprogram would still find nothin' wrong with this t-whirt as they find nothing wrong with the word "nigger" when referring to black people...

I believe it was correct in 1997 for Bill Clinton to suggest that we, as a nation, need to have a discussion on race... I belivee that some 10 years later it was correct for Barak Obama to make that very same discussion...

With that said, it is no wonder that these discussions are occuring here in cyber-world and this is perhaps the best place to have such a discussion...

A good place to start is with "Uncle Tom" because "Uncle Tom" symbolizes treasonous behavior because he used his status to perpetuate the abuses of slavery... But "Uncle Tom's" behavior can be unwrapped and understood... I mean, given the choices of working in the fields where the work was very hard and grueling or working in the "house" many white people would have made the same choices had it been white people who were the slaves...

The hard part about having a discussion about race is that there is no way to avoid having a discussion about slavery and Jim Crow and the effects of both on our society... And a secondary question is what a "just" society founded on "equality" is held to do to "repair" itself... Yes, "itself"... That what scares alot of white people... Alot of white people just don't wnat to go there because alot of white people aren't doing very well either and for these people and those who are doing well use scarely rhetoric about things such as Affirmative Action as a wedge to keep doing well... I understand this...

But understanding the ramifications is no reason to not have these discussions and whether ot not Obama become president or not there is no denying that his rise has brought about these discussions... And as we see it isn't a discussion soley between white and blacks but whites and whites and blacks and blacks... Jeremiah Wright pointed that out quite forcefully...

Well, folks, I have rambled enough for now...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 08 - 11:36 AM

Let me write #2 of my 7:13 AM post again for clarity's sake:

2. that people are Black {meaning African American or of African descent} and/or of some other racial population which is considered Black and/or that people are "Brown" {including Puerto Ricans or Latinos/Hispanics}.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Amergin
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:59 PM

Porch monkey has long been a derogatory term for a black person....

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 08 - 03:02 PM

Thanks, Azizi. You are aware I lived in Harlem back in the 1960s, so I DO appreciate you covering that base for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Jeri
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:11 PM

At some point, enforcing a feeling of offense at things like that is indistinguishable from teaching people how to be racist.

Those who in this day and age can believe black people are closer to monkeys than white people are complete idiots and not worth the adrenaline it takes to get honked off IMO.

Either the guy was completely ignorant of the fact that monkeys are intended to be a representation of black people only and he needs some education on how to be a proper racist, or he did it to get up people's noses. Either way, it certainly took the spotlight off more serious matters for a while.

'News' these days consist too often of what stories will piss people off the most and otherwise manipulate their emotions.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:11 PM

here is a picture that nicely sums up the whole issue ...

... and how to deal with it.

(for those who need a caption, the picture is of John Barnes, a football player who played for liverpool in the 80's, backheeling a banana off the pitch after it has been thrown at him while the crowd shouts "monkey" at him. Suffice to say it didn't stop him playing in his usual sublime and skillful way.)

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 May 08 - 04:56 PM

Is anyone else old enough (and American enough, and enough of a sports fan) to remember how Jimmy the Greek lost his job as a TV sports commentator?

Jimmy, a renowned football handicapper (i.e., a notoriously successful gambler), was hired to talk on TV about NFL football games. (It may have been Monday Night Football, or maybe the "regular" Sunday games ~ whichever, I think his appearances were limited to participating in halftime/postgame "discussions" with fellow sportscasters.)

A certain player, who "happened to be" African-American ~ and also happened to be very small for a football player, and very fleet-footed ~ had just turned in an outstanding performance. Jimmy used the phrase "that little monkey" while gushing with praise for this young man. He didn't mean to be insulting or degrading; quite the contrary. The player's outstanding day must have helped Jimmy make a lot of money; Jimmy got so excited that he forgot to watch his tongue. My impression is that he was just such an unreconstructed old-school white guy that he could actually utter a phrase guaranteed to be heard as offensive without the slightest hesitation or consciousness that anyone would misinterpret his intent, which was really to be complimentary and almost affectionate ~ at worst, nothing more than overly-familiar.

I'm not trying to justify what what he said, but rather to point out how there was misunderstanding from every angle. The media storm that immediately erupted cost Jimmy his network job, and people who learned of the incident only in hindsight undoubtedly were given the impression that Jimmy the Greek was some kind of meanspirited racist. Nothing could be farther from the truth ~ he revealed himself to be an unintentional and perhaps paternalistic racist, but not mean or nasty, and not a "hater" by any means. Just clueless ~ of course, that alone may well have been reason enough to remove him from his high-profile job

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: heric
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:17 PM

(You mean Howard.)

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:05 PM

No, he doesn't, heric. 'Twas Jimmy.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 16 May 08 - 07:09 PM

Both of them, actually.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:26 AM

Jimmy "The Greek" Snyder (aka Dimetrios Georgios Synodinos), commenting to (a) reporter... in a Washington, D.C. restaurant:

"The black is a better athlete to begin with because he's been bred to be that way -- because of his high thighs and big thighs that goes up into his back, and they can jump higher and run faster because of their bigger thighs. This goes back all the way to the Civil War when during the slave trading, the owner -- the slave owner would breed his big black to his big woman so that he could have a big black kid."


Howard Cosell (aka Howard Cohen) said on a live TV broadcast, Monday Night Football:

"look at that little monkey go" when he referred to a play by black receiver Alvin Garrett of the Washington Redskins regarding a run after a reception.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:42 AM

I remember both of those statements... Jimmy the Greek should have been busted on his hypothesis... It was not an offhanded thjoughtless momenbt but something he given some thought to...

I never thought that Howard Cosell meant anything racial on either a conscious or subconscious level... Especially given Cosell's relationship with a multitude of black athletes, including the one with Mohammed Ali... IMHO, it was just a bad choice of terms that he used to describe the athleticism of Alvin Garrette... I could see that Howard might have used the same term if the reciever had been white...

That's MO...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:29 AM

Yup! the "New South"- the Klan in business suits instead of robes & hoods.

Kinda makes ya proud to be an American, don't it? Best country in the goddamn world.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:36 AM

Yup, Greg F, that's about it 'cept the Klan has moved into other states, as well...

"Ya gotta keep 'um seperated..."

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: frogprince
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:39 AM

I never knew,until just a few years ago, that the Klan had substantial clout in Michigan for some years. (I'm not Michigan raised, but have been here 25 years now.)
Racism is indeed a complex mess. My father never avoided or slighted another person for color, for mental limitation, or for any other reason I can think of. But I remember him noting that black men fared better as boxers "because their skulls are thicker".

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:55 AM

Move over T shirts here comes HUCKABEE. this trumps "normal" racism.

At a NRA rally a chair fell back stage with a bang...
Huckabee said while miked... Thats Obama hitting the floor after a gun was pointed at him!   HAR HAR HAR

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: GUEST,Huckabee
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:10 AM

those are my true colors y'all

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: frogprince
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:44 AM

You know, that Huckabee line just stumps me; It's incredibly stupid, tasteless, and I can't see any point to it as even bad humor. But at the same time, does it have any racist implications? Is it supposed to mean that a white guy would have stood there, bravely, with a gun pointed at him? It could just imply that Obama is "the enemy", politically. Then again, I would bet that, somewhere out there, some redneck heard that and thought "Yeah, wouldn't it be nice to get a shot at one of "them".

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:03 AM

Did Huckabee's comment have any racist implications?

Yes   No


My vote is Yes.

That said, I understand that Huckabee has apologized for his incredible tasteless, dumb, and dangerous comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 May 08 - 12:40 PM

It is not only not funny, it is graceles and, I have no doubt, unmistakably racist; the man knew that he was invoking the thought what could happen to a Black candidate.   It blows me away (no pun intended) that a guy who could joke like this could have been our president. Here is an actual quote:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Former Republican presidential contender Mike Huckabee, interrupted on Friday by a loud crash as he spoke to the National Rifle Association, joked that the noise was Democratic candidate Barack Obama falling off a chair as he dodged a gun aimed at him.

"That was Barack Obama. He just tripped off a chair. He was getting ready to speak and somebody aimed a gun at him, and he dove for the floor," Huckabee told the NRA convention in Louisville, Kentucky, in comments that aired on CNN.

"Democratic front-runner Obama, who if elected in November would be the first black U.S. president, was campaigning in South Dakota on Friday as he tried to wrap up the party's nomination.

"The memory of the assassination of civil rights leader Martin Luther King 40 years ago, and the risks Obama could face in his run for the presidency, have been a concern of many voters during this presidential campaign."

Bruited about for Vice President

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 08 - 01:27 PM

'Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Bobert - PM
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:36 AM

Yup, Greg F, that's about it 'cept the Klan has moved into other states, as well...

"Ya gotta keep 'um seperated..."'

Take a crowbar to do that!

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 01:50 PM

I don't think it's racist at all, I think it has to do specifically with a certain feeling a lot of people have had that Obama may be in some real danger. Huckabee made the error of voicing out loud a thought that lurks nervously in the back of a great many people's minds...not necessarily because Obama is Black...but merely because it looks as though he could win the election now. (I know this because I have heard a number of people say privately that they were worried about it. I have not heard anyone worrying about Hillary or McCain getting shot. Huckabee slipped, and he publicly voiced that thought out loud.)

Bobby Kennedy did not get shot in '68 because he was White. He got shot because he was on his way to winning the Democratic nomination and the presidency...and there were some very powerful people who didn't want him there.

Get it?

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 17 May 08 - 02:04 PM

Bobby Kennedy was shot by an angry young man who was taught to hate Jews by his father, a Palestinian immigrant.

Sirhan Sirhan was very mad about the US support for Israel in the 1967 war. The shooting was less than a year after it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 02:28 PM

Yes, I know that. How do you know that Sirhan acted entirely alone, however, and was not a small pawn in a much larger game? It's always characerized as "a lone gunman" in the official story when these things happen. Very convenient, because it leaves no loose ends to follow anywhere.

The official story might be the whole truth. And it might not. Do you think the people at the top of our system want the public to know the whole truth about anything? I certainly don't. No, they want the public to know exactly what will keep them compliant, passive, helpless, and easily controllable.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 17 May 08 - 02:35 PM

I have no idea wherther or not Sirhan Sirhan had help. He probably did, but that is not the point.

He wanted to kill a prominent American politician which is what he did. Sirhan's father was so mad about the 1967 war that he denounced the US and moved back the the area around Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 02:59 PM

I don't particularly care about Sirhan's private motivations for the act. What concerns me is that he may have been a pawn for larger interests who used him to. It is the business of such interests to find unstable individuals who can be influenced, controlled, and put in place to carry out such attacks...and I doubt that they care much what those individual's motivations are...unless it would serve a useful propaganda purpose after the event.

Lee Harvey Oswald was a perfect example of that sort of thing. He was heavily involved in various forms of espionage and undercover work for years, and he was connected with all kinds of strange stuff on both sides of the Cold War. He was almost certainly a double agent, someone who appeared to work for one side while working for the other. His ties to Cuba and Russia and the Communists were all handy possibilities for use in a propaganda sense after the fact, should such propaganda prove useful. They doubly secured the matter by making sure HE got killed by another operative before he could say anything that might prove embarrassing.

That apparently wasn't necessary in Sirhan's case, probably because he knew very little.

I'm simply speculating. These are possibilities. They strike me as more likely than the "lone gunman who acted alone" theories.

I'm not saying I know. Nobody here knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: frogprince
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:53 PM

As to Huckabee; I really had just heard what I got here about him and the quote; one basic thing that slipped by me until just now was that this was said in the context of an NRA convention. Now I feel like I have more of a sense of why it would "play" as "humor", and of how appalling bad an excuse for "humor" it was. Very Christian of you, Mr. Huckabee....like hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Susan of DT
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:13 AM

I contend that Huckabee knew full well the specter he was raising. And of course, I am aware of the dangers Obama faces; we all are. I prefer not to voice it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racist T Shirt In Georgia
From: Susan of DT
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:49 AM

That last post was mine, not Susan's.

Ebbie