BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...

Subject: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:04 PM

updated 10:13 a.m. EDT, Fri May 16, 2008


Iran's arrest of Baha'is condemned
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Six Baha'i leaders arrested in raids on their homes, Baha'i news service says
"Their only crime is practice of their faith," says Baha'i representative to U.N.
No comment from Iranian government; arrests not reported in Iran's state-run media
U.S. government panel calls arrests a sign of vanishing religious freedom in Iran
Next Article in World »




(CNN) -- Six Baha'i leaders in Iran were seized and imprisoned this week, the religious group said. The act prompted condemnation and concern from the movement and a top American religious freedom panel.


A U.S. panel says attacks on Iran's Baha'is have increased since Mahmoud Ahmadinejad became president.

Iranian intelligence agents searched the homes of the six on Wednesday and then whisked them away, according to the Baha'i's World News Service. The report said the six are in Evin prison and that the arrests follow the detention in March of another Baha'i leader.

The Iranian Foreign Ministry could not immediately be reached for comment, and the incident has not been mentioned in Iran's state-run media.

"Their only crime is their practice of the Baha'i faith," said Bani Dugal, the principal representative of the Baha'i international community to the United Nations.

The U.S. State Department issued a statement Friday "strongly" condeming the arrests, which it said were "a clear violation of the Iranian regime's international commitments and obligations to respect international religious freedom norms.

"We urge the authorities to release all Baha'is currently in detention and cease their ongoing harassment of the Iranian Baha'i community," the U.S. statement said.

The group -- regarded as the largest non-Muslim religious minority in Iran -- says the arrests are reminiscent of roundups and killings of Baha'is that took place in Iran two decades ago.

"Especially disturbing is how this latest sweep recalls the wholesale arrest or abduction of the members of two national Iranian Baha'i governing councils in the early 1980s -- which led to the disappearance or execution of 17 individuals," Dugal said.

"The early morning raids on the homes of these prominent Baha'is were well-coordinated, and it is clear they represent a high-level effort to strike again at the Baha'is and to intimidate the Iranian Baha'i community at large," she added.

The United States Commission on International Religious Freedom -- a government panel that advises the president and Congress -- condemned the Wednesday arrests, as well as another in March. The commission chairman called the acts the "latest sign of the rapidly deteriorating status of religious freedom and other human rights in Iran."

The commission said the seven were members of an informal Baha'i group that tended to the needs of the community after the Iranian government banned all formal Baha'i activity in 1983.

The commission chairman, Michael Cromartie, echoed the fears that the "development signals a return to the darkest days of repression in Iran in the 1980s when Baha'is were routinely arrested, imprisoned, and executed."

The Baha'is are regarded as "apostates" in Iran and have been persecuted there for years.

"Since 1979, Iranian authorities have killed more than 200 Baha'i leaders, thousands have been arrested and imprisoned, and more than 10,000 have been dismissed from government and university jobs," the commission said.

The commission said that since President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad came to power a few years ago, Baha'is "have been harassed, physically attacked, arrested, and imprisoned."

"During the past year, young Baha'i schoolchildren in primary and secondary schools increasingly have been attacked, vilified, pressured to convert to Islam, and in some cases, expelled on account of their religion."

The commission said other groups in the predominantly Shiite Muslim country of Iran, such Sufis and Christians, are subject to intimidation and harassment. Ahmadinejad's inflammatory statements about Israel have "created a climate of fear" among the country's Jews.

The Baha'is say they have 5 million members across the globe, and about 300,000 in Iran.

The Baha'is say their faith "is the youngest of the world's independent religions" and that its basic theme is that "humanity is one single race and that the day has come for its unification in one global society."

They say their founder, Baha'u'llah (1817-1892), is regarded by Baha'is as "the most recent in the line of Messengers of God that stretches back beyond recorded time and that includes Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Christ and Muhammad."

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:18 PM

Hmm. Well, I'll have to see what I can find out about this from the local Bahai community around here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:20 PM

Please do! There is a major shortage of information about this out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: Amos
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:25 PM

The Baha'is say their faith "is the youngest of the world's independent religions" and that its basic theme is that "humanity is one single race and that the day has come for its unification in one global society."

A good theme, that! Not sure about the age thing, though. Younger than Jehovah's witnesses, Christian Science, Sun Yung Moon's outfit, and Scientology?

ANyway, that's a quibble. Neither Iran nor the US should be engaging in this sort of faith-driven executive boneheadedness.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:34 PM

Yep, looks like more of the same old sorry persecution that Bahais have been suffering in Iran ever since the religion began there in the 1800s as a new offshoot from Islam with a new prophet. The persecutions at that time were intense, and they have continued off and on to the present day. Many people have been imprisoned and executed not only by the present Iranian regime but by most of its predecessors, including the Shah. The Bahais are regarded as apostates or infidels by the Muslim religion because they don't believe Mohammed was the last prophet. They believe he was one of the important and true prophets of God, but not the last one. This is sacrilege to hardline Muslims, and the Bahais have been persecuted for it again and again.

I've known Bahais for many years and I have a very good opinion of them. As religions go, theirs is one of the kindest and most tolerant.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:40 PM

LH,


"I've known Bahais for many years and I have a very good opinion of them. "

I agree ( in general) they are very tolerant of those seeking knowledge, without any requirement to believe as they do in order to discuss religion.

"As religions go, theirs is one of the kindest and most tolerant."

As above, I agree , with one exception. They are NOT tolerant of apostates, since there was a schism in the early days that almost destroyed the group. One who accepts their religion, and becomes a member, is NOT permitted to change the doctrine or faith.

However, the individuals I know have all been the type of people most of us admire. ( re moral action and tolerance)

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:49 PM

Oh, is that right? I didn't know they had a big problem with apostates. It's kind of ironical that they would, because that's why the Muslims have a big problem with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 08 - 09:58 PM

The Bahá'í Faith is a religion that was founded by Bahá'u'lláh in Persia in the nineteenth century.[1] There are an estimated five to six million Bahá'ís around the world in more than 200 countries and territories.[2][3]
Bahá'í teachings emphasize the spiritual oneness of humanity and the underlying unity of the major world religions. Religious history is seen to have unfolded through the influence of a series of divinely-sent messengers, each of whom established a religion that was suited to the needs of the time. These messengers have included Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, the Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad and, most recently, the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. In Bahá'í belief, each messenger is stated to have taught that other messengers would follow and that Bahá'u'lláh's claims and teachings fulfil the eschatological promises of previous scriptures. Humanity is understood to be involved in a process of collective evolution, and the need of the present time is for the gradual establishment of peace, justice and unity on a global scale.[4]

more at wiki-

"According to a US panel, attacks on Bahá'ís in Iran have increased since Mahmoud Ahmadinejad became president.[70] The United Nations Commission on Human Rights revealed an October 2005 confidential letter from Command Headquarters of the Armed Forces of Iran to identify Bahá'ís and to monitor their activities.[71] Due to these actions, the Special Rapporteur of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights stated on March 20, 2006, that she "also expresses concern that the information gained as a result of such monitoring will be used as a basis for the increased persecution of, and discrimination against, members of the Bahá'í faith, in violation of international standards… The Special Rapporteur is concerned that this latest development indicates that the situation with regard to religious minorities in Iran is, in fact, deteriorating."[71] On May 14, 2008, members of an informal body known as the Friends that oversaw the needs of the Bahá'í community in Iran were arrested and taken to Evin prison.[70]"


Not sure if this is another source, or the same one...

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:32 PM

I remember way back...early '60's perhaps? when I first heard about Baha'i...I thought then it was something a bit 'weird' and I still do. A hippie thing if you will.....somehow not quite a 'cult' but close.

I still have a difficult time believing anybody has the True Way...but perhaps Baha'i comes close. At least they admit there is no One True Prophet. That could be progress, of a sort.

Just My Opinion of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:45 PM

Sorcha, I know quite a few Bahais and they are about the least weird people I've ever encountered. They tend to be quite intelligent, quite modern-minded, very broad-minded, and intensely idealistic and progressive in regards to society. It's not a hippy thing anymore at all, although it attracted a lot of quasi-hippies in the late 60s and early 70s. Now it tends to attract upper middle class people of the more intellectual sort, I think.

The one point about Bahais that bothers me is that they are so sure they've found the True Way, as you say... ;-) I think there are many True Ways, different ones suited to different people, that's all.

But they do honor all the great prophets and all the world religions, and they consider all the great prophets to have been genuine messengers of God, each one a separate incarnation of the Christ, as it were, come into a different time to again teach humanity basic spiritual knowledge.

That's a very wise way to look at a series of great prophets from different religions, and it's pretty much how I've always looked at it.

They think that Baha'Ullah and the Bab were the LAST of those prophets (no more to come). In that respect, I think they are most likely very much in error. I'm pretty sure there are further such yet to come...and there always will be as long as human beings exist on this planet. I don't take any revelation as "the final one".

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:06 PM

"I don't take any revelation as "the final one"."

Wspecially should you believe that "all religions are man made".

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:09 PM

One who accepts their religion, and becomes a member, is NOT permitted to change the doctrine or faith.

So what happens to them? Do they get eliminated? Or is it that they are regarded by their co-religionists as provisionally lapsed members rather than as ex members, in the same way Catholics are?

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:14 PM

We have all kind of good and useful things that are manmade, Foolestroupe, including every form of beneficial philosophy that we know of. Perhaps you are short-selling humanity's creative abilities, and the benefits that can accrue thereof. ;-)

McGrath - No, they don't get eliminated. ;-) They simply get ostracized by their former religious peer group, as can happen with "lapsed catholics" too or in a variety of other religions. This is a big emotional problem for some individuals, no problem at all for others, depends on how badly you want the continued approval and company of your former religious peer group.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:48 PM

True enough, whether it's a matter of being ostracized, or not being taken seriously ("you'll be back"), that can't be easy.

But "is NOT permitted to change the doctrine or faith" seemed to suggest a more directly threatening response by true-believers ro members who drop away. And that wouldn't be consistent with any Bahai I've ever come across, any more that it would be with Quakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:59 PM

It doesn't sound right to me, either. Like I said above, I've known a lot of Bahais and they seem to me like about the most reasonable, intelligent, and harmless people one could possibly hope to meet.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: open mike
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:10 PM

http://www.bahai.org/
http://news.google.com/news?q=bahai&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=news_group&resnum=4&ct=title
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2008/05/iran-bahais-rou.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 May 08 - 01:35 PM

I've been hearing about the Bahai Faith for years, and have always found it to be very interesting and (at least in theory) admirable. I have also seen their very beautiful and impressive temple building near Chicago.

But I have never met an individual member. I'm especially curious as to whether Bahai adherents in North America tend to be mostly folks of Iranian descent born into their tradition, mostly Euro- and Afro- America "converts," or a mixture. Those of you with personal knowledge: anythng you can tell me?

I'm a little disappointed to learn that they are less tolerant of "apostacy" than I would have thought, and that they are so insistant that their prophet be regarded as not only the most recent, but the absolute final, Messenger of God.

I had considered that the Bahai teachings, as much as I was aware, seemed uniquely reasonable, open, and tolerant. Not quite so. Makes me wonder if it's absolutely necessary to insist upon at least a little bit of dogma in order to evolve into, and survive as, a functioning religion.

In other words: If Bahai believers could concede that "the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh" might not have the Last Word, that human history may indeed continue for untold millenita, and that future ages will surely require prophets of their own ~ would such "liberal" thinking make it any less possible for the Faith to exist as an institution, with buildings, an ongoing succession of clergy, etc.? I'd like to think not, to believe in the possibility of ever-more-enlightened religious institutions. But maybe complete open-mindedness demands independence, and formation of a community of belief requires at least a modicum of irratonal insistence upon some element of dogma.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:39 PM

My thoughts exactly, PG. ;-) I guess it's part of the disease of exclusivity that attaches itself to any "group" identity, whether it be a religion, a nation, a club, a race, a party, a profession...

You asked about the ethnic or cultural origin of Bahais. The ones I've met in North America are about maybe 1/3 to 50% of Iranian-Middle Eastern descent and the rest are North American converts from our white average mainstream. A lot of them seem to be teachers or people in the humanities-type professions...mostly quite well educated.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: meself
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:14 PM

In another time and place, I had some good friends who were Ba'hais. They had all come to Canada as a result of religious persecution in Egypt and Sudan. As I understood it, part of the reason for persecution was the fact that they have their headquarters in Israel. On the other hand, I suppose that was and is the only safe place in the Mid-east for them TO have their headquarters ...

Anyway, they seemed to me as fine a bunch of people as you'd ever want to meet, and we had a lot of good times together. I admired the principles of their religion, and often thought that if I felt any need to take on a new religion, that would be the most likely candidate.

This is the first I've heard about the attitude toward apostasy - it seems inconsistent with the generally liberal beliefs of Ba'hai. In fact, I can't imagine the Ba'hais I knew having it in them to be hateful toward anybody ...

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:20 PM

Their central temple and administrative site is located in (or near) Haifa, Israel.

As apostates from Islam...essentially a reform sect of Islam...they have endured great persecution in Islamic societies from their inception.

Most such people are fine people. Most Muslims I've ever met are fine people. You know, it only takes a few rabble-rousers and unscrupulous leaders to make life hell for a lot of ordinary people. How many bullies does it take to ruin things in a school for most of the students? A mere handful.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:42 PM

meself:

I think that members of a belief-group can reject or exclude folks for lack of conformity to the group's principles without being "hateful." They can be very nice and polite, but just say, "What you believe is inconsistent with what the rest of us all agree to believe. We're still friends, but you don't belong to this church."

Still in all, I had assumed that Bahai would be more open to a degree of ambiguity. What little I had learned about the faith was that it is said to view all religions as equally right in recognizing a "Higher Power" and a spiritual dimension, and equally wrong in the more specific aspects of their teachings. It seems, however, that Bahai itself is exempt from the "equally wrong" clause. Perhaps that is to be expected; as individuals, every one of us sincerely believes that whatever we believe is right and correct ~ otherwise, we wouldn't believe it! I suppose the same kind of self-certainty is going to be characteristic of belief groups as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: meself
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:57 PM

Re: apostasy. The trouble is, we're just speculating over whether or not there are any consequences to leaving the faith - which beardedbruce tells us is verboten - , and if so, what those consequences might or might not be ... Surely there's someone around here who actually KNOWS something about the matter ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:01 PM

They did not mention any consequences- just that no deviation from the central headquarters view was permitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: open mike
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:14 PM

I have been active in the Baha'i Faith. In the groups that I have attended there are people from all nationalities and backgrounds.
There are a few buildings called Houses of Worship but for the most part they meet in each
other's homes and in other public buildings. There is not a "clergy"
as such, but "independant investigation of the truth" is encouraged
and their meetings are called "Feasts" and they meet every 19 days.
This is based on the Bahai calendar, where year "1" was in 1844.
Bahaullah (whose name means The Glory of God) was imprisoned for
much of his life where he created many of the wrtings of the faith
by dictating ideas to a secretary (emmenuensis?) who was in jail
with him. Many of the prayers and stories are very poetic in the
style of Persian writings. see http://www.bahaullah.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:48 PM

Okay - so what if anything happens if you announce that you no longer believe in the tenets of Ba'hai, or if you just quietly stop attending Feasts? (Or do you know?)

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:51 PM

Absolutely nothing happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:26 PM

Hmmm ... yesterday you would only go so far as to say, "It doesn't sound right to me", now you state that "Absolutely nothing happens." Have you found out something since yesterday - or were you just being more diplomatic yesterday?

I'm just a little curious about this business ...

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:50 PM

I meant that the attitude didn't sound right to me. It didn't fit any Bahais I have ever met.

When I say that "absolutely nothing happens" I am referring to people I have know who have been Bahais for awhile...then left it behind...and absolutely nothing happened to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bahai in Iran? Not anymore...
From: meself
Date: 19 May 08 - 07:56 PM

Okay - gotcha! Thanks for the clarification.