BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome

Subject: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:03 PM

Well, so many things got me thinking of it this weekend. The Obama cult & the political idol worship of people like him, the Kennedys, and other politician charismatics.

My sister's obsession with American Idol and Dancing With the Stars.

Now, I can enjoy a mindless show or two of Dancing With the Stars. Can't go there regarding American Idol, though.

My daughter and I had an "annual tradition" of watching the Academy Awards together to see what the women were wearing (she is now in school to get her BFA in Tech Theatre in Wig & Makeup Design, so it always seemed natural for us, even though I'm not very into the whole glamor thing).

And of course, when you don't have cable and your only after work choices are Entertainment Tonight and Access Hollywood while you are doing your exercycle...yeah, I watch when the Lehrer report is too dull to be tolerable--which is quite often.

It is said by psychologists (which makes me immediately suspicious) that 1/3 of the planet's population suffers from some level of what they call "celebrity worship". Here are the "3 phases" in current circulation among the pop psych types:

    * Entertainment-social. Fans are attracted to a favorite celebrity because of their perceived ability to entertain and to become a source of social interaction and gossip. Items include 'My friends and I like to discuss what my favorite celebrity has done' and 'Learning the life story of my favorite celebrity is a lot of fun'.

    * Intense-personal. The intense-personal aspect of celebrity worship reflects intensive and compulsive feelings about the celebrity, akin to the obsession tendencies of fans often referred to in the literature. Items include 'My favorite celebrity is practically perfect in every way' and 'I consider my favorite celebrity to by my soul mate'.

    * Borderline-pathological. This dimension is typified by uncontrollable behaviors and fantasies about their celebrities. Items include 'I would gladly die in order to save the life of my favorite celebrity' and 'If I walked through the door of my favorite celebrity's house she or he would be happy to see me'.

Now, I think in our adolescence we've all done a bit of light stalking of someone we had a crush on--calling on the phone just to hear them answer, driving by their house, keeping tabs on their whereabouts and with whomabouts through friends, that sort of thing.

That sort of obsessive-compulsive thing I can appreciate and have tremendous empathy for, as it is really hard to grow and mature out of that stage in life where heterosexual romantic love is perceived as the high water mark of human achievement.

The wedding industry and celebrity tv don't help this.

Politician idolatry is, of course, far less common but does still happen, as we've seen with Obama.

Knowing the tendency of the pop psychology movement to make everything a "syndrome" I can't help but wonder: why is it some people never seem to mature and outgrow this sort of thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:59 PM

Now I've just come across this older article from ABC News (2003), that talks about a "sliding scale" of celebrity obsession:

The responses cast doubt on the conventional view that celebrity worship is categorised into pathological and non-pathological cases - in other words, harmless fun and obsession.

Instead, the replies pointed to a "sliding scale" in which the celebrity devotee becomes progressively more fascinated with his or her idol.

In addition, celebrity fans are significantly likelier to suffer from anxiety, depression and social dysfunction than non-worshippers.

About 20 per cent of respondents closely followed celebrities in the media for "entertainment-social" reasons, according to the report.

They tend to be extroverts: social, lively, active and adventurous.

The next stage, affecting about 10 per cent, is when the devotee develops an "intense-personal" attitude towards an idol, such as the belief that he or she had a special bond with the star.

At this point, celebrity worship is becoming an addiction.

Those in this category are often neurotic, tense, emotional and moody.

At its most intense, celebrity worship is "borderline-pathological," a condition found in 1 per cent of interviewees.

These include celebrity stalkers and people who are willing to hurt themselves or others in the name of their idol.

They correlate with symptoms of psychosis, such as impulsive, antisocial and egocentric behaviour.

"Just worshipping a celebrity does not make you dysfunctional," New Scientist quoted Mr Houran as saying.

"But it does put you at risk of being so.

"There is this progression of behaviours, and if you start, we don't know what's going to stop you."

People tend to get interested in celebrities at times when they are looking for direction in life, as in their teenage years.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:14 PM

Hmmmm You may have something there. Science is amazing. I'm sure it has a term for the pathological need to continually set oneself above people whom one will never know.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:23 PM

And it isn't exactly a new idea. I'm thinking Milton's 'Readie and Easie Ways' here when it comes to the replacing of religious idols with political idols, be they the king or the president.

It also makes me wish there were a Will Rogers for our day. Daily Show just leaves one wanting, by comparison to our once "Unofficial President of the United States".

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:32 PM

I think it's a social behavior that humans (and other primates) come by honestly, though. They did some studies on chimps and found that they would rather look at a picture of the higher ranking members of the social group than eat their favorite foods (if given a choice between the two). It probably was a very important survival tool back when the social cohesiveness of a small grouping of humans or other primates meant the difference between surviving or not surviving.

I can't think of any celebrities that I would consider worthy of being "worshiped", though. I actually don't understand the concept of worship, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:47 PM

I don't understand the concept either, exactly. I was a Beatlemaniac when I was 10-11 years old, and beyond that, I can't recall any sort of hero worship or rock star idolatry I ever engaged in, once I passed puberty and became able to evaluate the music of Beatles as music by musicians, and not my idols. I'm not a religious believer, but a secularist. So I can't say as I can relate there either.

I was "over there" when Princess Di went into the wall, and was--as they say that side of the pond--absolutely gobsmacked at the reaction.

I do think much of the Obama stuff is political celebrity worship. Then, when I read yesterday morning that Kennedy had gone into the hospital, I had flash backs of when John John went into the drink, and THAT looked just the same as the Princess Di shit.

Do you see the pattern I'm getting at here? There are politician/political celebrities involved in the Princess Di, the Kennedys, the Clintons, the Obamas (especially now that I am hearing Michelle Obama being declared the new Jackie O).

That's the thing I'm so baffled by here.

American Idol, yeah whatever. Same with boy bands, and all that sort of teen fandom stuff. Star Trek, a bit more disturbing still. Anna Nicole Smith and Brittany Spears, misogynist and REALLY disturbing.

But the political thing is really a throw back to what Milton was talking about...so it feels a bit more ancient, this political idolatry thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:04 PM

Well, it's useful for the 'bread and circuses' part of the distraction and subjugation of the masses, isn't it? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:14 PM

Indeed it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:14 PM

Which is precisely why I don't watch the news, don't get a newspaper and have a huge library.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:12 PM

Ruichard Thompson's Galway to Graceland is the only song I can think of about this:

Oh she dressed in the dark and she whispered amen
She was pretty in pink like a young girl again
Twenty years married and she never thought twice
She sneaked out the door and walked into the night
And silver wings carried her over the sea
From the west coast of Ireland to West Tennessee
To be with her sweetheart, oh she left everything
From Galway to Graceland to be with the king

She was humming Suspicion, that's the song she liked best
She had Elvis I Love You tattooed on her breast
When they landed in Memphis, well her heart beat so fast
She'd dreamed for so long, now she'd see him at last
She was down by his graveside day after day
Come closing time they would pull her away
Ah to be with her sweetheart, oh she'd left everything
From Galway to Graceland to be with the king

Ah, they came in their thousands from the whole human race
To pay their respects at his last resting place
But blindly she knelt there and she told him her dreams
And she thought that he answered or that's how it seems
Then they dragged her away it was handcuffs this time
She said my good man are you out of your mind.
Don't you know that we're married? See, I'm wearing his ring.
From Galway to Graceland to be with the king.
I come From Galway to Graceland to be with the king.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:54 PM

I confess to having a few 'heroes' - favourite authors mainly. But I don't particularly want to meet any of them - what would I say to them?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Slag
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:17 PM

What a relief! I once thought I was antisocial but discovered I was only anti-celebrity!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:27 PM

I can understand the political side of things. Kennedy, like Ghandi and Martin Luther King (and others) was a leader trying to make things better (at least in public view) and was very charismatic. Or as it's been described, a cult of personality. He was leading the way! Jackie was the penultimate first lady. It was a new day and a new age (I wasn't even around to see it, that's how I've heard it described by people and in print).

Brittany and her ilk just make me sick! They are not news! Perhaps if they were making a positive difference (like some others) instead of being in a selfish, vain, downward spiral I might even be interested in a humane way.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 May 08 - 07:08 PM

On the one hand, it's something that just naturally happens. People like to have a role model that they can be inspired by, and I think that's a healthy thing.

On the other hand, it's a powerful marketing technique...and it can get way out of hand.

Now what would you say about a person who talks constantly about William Shatner, for example, and whose house is full of Shatner memorabilia? When you ring their doorbell you hear a recording of Captain Kirk saying, "Beam me in, Mr Scott." When you enter the front hall you are confronted by a lifesize statue of William Shatner clad in a speedo, and the statue is gilded. Its eyes follow you as you walk by nervously, and if you are female it pinches your butt when you're not looking and then winks roguishly at you when you turn around! If you're male it says, "Look sharp, mister! And pull in that gut."

You enter the library to find hundreds of books about Shatner and Star Trek. The kitchen is a replica of the Bridge of the Enterprise.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture...

Now would this be a really unhealthy case of CWS? Or just a harmless hobby? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 08 - 07:18 PM

"Ghandi" rides again.

Gorge Wasington, Abaram Linclon and Runnold Raygun could fittingly accompany him.

The name's Gandhi!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:04 PM

LH, we knew you were a Shatner nut!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:21 AM

The kitchen that looks like the bridge of The Enterprise sounds fun.

You could microwave your lunch at warp factor 10.

If someone came in and said, you don't cook it like that - you got the recipe wrong: you could put the phaser on stun, and say oh yes I do!

And you could run around a bit, like it was meteorite storm while you wait for the kettle to boil.......

....not that I ever used to watch it much.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:22 AM

Now you are getting some real insight into the joys of my daily lifestyle, weelittledrummer...

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:42 AM

Kevin, here's another - my favourite - from the pen of Clive James, as set to music by Pete Atkin:

APPARITION IN LAS VEGAS

When the King of Rock and Roll sang in the desert
He didn't seem to age like other men
To Vegas came the ladies with pink rinses
Agog to see the dreamboat sail again

To Vegas came the shipwrecked and the broken
Their long regrets, their searing midnight rages
Their disappointment seldom left unspoken
In marriages that turned to rows of cages
He wrote and bound the book of which their early aspirations were the pages

When the King of Rock and Roll sang in the desert
With a ring of confidence around his smile
He sparkled like the frosting on a drumkit
He was supple as the serpent of the Nile

To Vegas came the ladies with pink rinses
With all their ills and all their soured karma
With all their pills and all their tics and winces
To feel again the liberating drama
Of a shining silver buckskin suit against a solid purple cyclorama

When the King of Rock and Roll sang in the desert
He broke no hearts that hadn't burst before
The ladies with pink rinses all were veterans
It was they and never he that knew the score
And knowing that they only loved him more

To Vegas came the debris of an era
For the promise that no longer could deceive them
Their eyes grew misty as their sight grew clearer
With a drum roll the past began to leave them
And it all drew further from them as the spotlight caught the King and brought him nearer

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 08 - 01:10 PM

Well, well, well...

So Obama supporters aren't supporters at all but worshipers??? No, not worshipers but downright cultists???

Hmmmmm???

How about folks who support McCain and Hillary, Fantz??? Any of them fall in that category??? And if so, why was Obama used as "The Celebrity"???

Nevermind, I know... If you were to start a thread entitled "Tomato Biscqe Soup Recipes" I'm sure you would somehow weave your displeasure with Obama and/or his "worshipers" into it...

...lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:03 PM

I think that response to "charisma" in a political leader is quite a different thing from obsession with pop stars and "famous-only-for-being-famous" characters like Paris Hilton. To find oneself caught up in a political movement, whether or not it is linked with an individual's personality, is to function as a citizen in the public arena, not something than many of do with any regularity.

A politician's JOB is to inspire the population, and all of them do so to a greater or lesser extent. It is necessary to capture the public imagination in order to get elected in the first place, of course, and once in office ~ especially, in an executive office like Presidency, or even a Governorship ~ it is necessary to mobilize the public in order to achieve anything new and different.

Washington and Lincoln were charismatic leaders, as were both Roosevelts, JFK, and Reagan. Now, only the latter two held office during my living memory, and I felt closely aligned with one and not at all with the other. But regardless of whether you or I agree with an individual leader's agenda, we can recognize when he is able to connect with large numbers of people ~ and we should be able to recognize that the ability to do so is the most important aspect of political leadership, far more critical than legislative savvy, organization experience, or any number of other skills that can be delegated to others. Only the officeholder himself (or herself, of course) can capture the public's imagination and inspire them to press for, and/or to accept, anything really new.

Not at all to be compared with fan-magazine-type hero worship.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:14 PM

As fir me, I really ain't fot any worship in me fir any motal being... I rubbed elbows with alot of so-called famous rock stars an' they is just people like the rest of us... Okay, Doctor John was a wierdo... But Bruce Springstien was a quite and somewhat shy guy when I hung with him a little back in the late 60's...

Respect and suppprt now???? Different concepts and, yeah, I support Obama and I respect Obama... Worship??? Nah...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:24 PM

Oh, come on, Bobert, you know you want to have his baby...or, have P-Vine have it, or something just as fantastical!**bg**

Poppagator, exactly. Well-put.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:27 PM

I was mostly talking about the celebrity worship syndrome in regards to the deaths of Princess Di & JFK Jr, not his president father.

Really over the top and screwed up reactions to both occurred, IMO.

I, of course, am not exactly the first person on the planet to note the cult of personality surrounding Obama. He just pulled in 65,000-75,000 people in Oregon, according to what I just read.

Something going on there, but I don't think it has anything to do with politics or our democracy. When a politician starts pulling in those numbers at political rallies you are looking at something a tad more messianic than just rock star status.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:29 PM

I wonder if the same psychological events are at play for the outright hatred that was shown for people like Bill Clinton and JFK.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:45 PM

That would be interesting to find out, wouldn't it? Because despite JFK Sr's charisma, he was hated by LOTS of people.

The most disturbing aspect of the Obama cult, to me, is his & his supporters use of Christian messianic language in their political rhetoric. I find that deeply, deeply disturbing considering the money he has piled up & who gave it to him.

I'm not in favor of evangelical political populism, thanks.

We've seen this sort of Protestant political crusading before--in a rapid rise and fall during the Gilded Age. They were notoriously anti-socialism and anti-labor radicalism, and ended up being a flash in the pan.

Lots of the same themes are resonating around today that were in the zeitgeist back then too. Back then, it was Primitive Baptists, Disciples of Christ, Methodists, and other evangelical Protestants who rejected denominationalism altogether, leading the charge.

It could certainly be argued that the born again Protestant culture is "extra-denominational" if you will.

And as to race, back then it was rooted strongly in the Jim Crow south in the wake of emancipation. Today, it is the "first" black president who speaks using messianic rhetoric quite frequently, who is driving it.

Which is one of the reasons why Obama doesn't do well with Catholics, IMO.

But that's a subject for a different thread, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:58 PM

"I was mostly talking about the celebrity worship syndrome in regards to the deaths of Princess Di & JFK Jr, not his president father.

Really over the top and screwed up reactions to both occurred, IMO."

C'mon, Fantasma, who are you trying to kid? The main point of your opening argument, and sole reason for starting this thread, was to demean Barack Obama and his supporters. The fact that you posted twice before prompting a response from anyone else ~ that's what might be interpreted as "over the top," not the reponsses posted by the rest of us.

I do appreciate the wealth of interesting insights you passed along concerning the general topic of "celebrity obsession," which I find distasteful to an alarming extent, probably as much as you. But characterizing the enthusiastic response of voters to a political candidate ~ especially to one candidate to the exclusion of the others ~ was out of line.

After all, your girl Hillary has a very similar appeal to a different demographic, just as rabid if not moreso, but in somewhat smaller numbers ~ much to the candidiate's surprise and dismay.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:10 PM

The reason that Obama is pulling 65,000 to 75,000 people to hear hjim has nothing to do with cult or worship...

...it's all about the kind of politics that ***you*** so aptly represent here in Mudville..

(Well, Boberdz, maybe that's why it's called Mudville???)

Hillary and you, Fantz, have been slingin' mud like there's no tomorrow...

Well, at least Hillary has quit for now and unless McCain taps her for VP I hope she is done...

B

I read that, Kat... I might not be too good at this typin'/spellin' stuff but I read that an' have just one question... If the P-Vine had Barak's baby could we both move into the White House???

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:16 PM

Well, as a card carrying member of the cult, Poppagator, I'm not the least bit surprised to see you reading your own cult view into my intent.

But if you look at the time & date I inititiated the thread (the day Teddy Kennedy was airlifted from the Cape to Mass Gen in Boston), a more objective person (ie one who isn't quite so enamored of Obama) might see this thread differently. I never intended it to be yet another ad nauseum debate with the Mudcat Obama cult. God knows there are plenty of those threads here.

I am in no way being "out of line" to view Obama critically, and comment upon him in a critical vein.

Last time I checked, we still had a First Amendment in this country.

And sorry to disappoint, I don't have a girl in the race--I've said repeatedly I'm either voting for Nader or staying home. However, I find the sexist attacks against Clinton to be out of line and over the top.

But I'm sure you wouldn't agree with that either.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:21 PM

As I said, I'm hardly the first to have noted the Christian messianic rhetoric in the Obama cult, to wit from Talk Left:

Obama: Cult , Evangelicalism or Political Campaign?
By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:22:48 AM EST
Tags: Barack Obama, 2008 (all tags)
Share This: Digg This!! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

I'm so glad to see I'm not the only one a bit turned off by the messianic fervor Barack Obama is generating. Jake Tapper at ABC News lists a few others.

Katherine Greier at TPM Cafe, an Obama supporter, writes:

    "Excuse me, but this sounds more like a cult than a political campaign. The language used here is the language of evangelical Christianity – the Obama volunteers speak of 'coming to Obama' in the same way born-again Christians talk about 'coming to Jesus.'...So I say, we should all get a grip, stop all this unseemly mooning over Barack, see him and the political landscape he is a part of in a cooler, clearer, and more realistic light, and get to work."

Joe Klein at Time Magazine points out the Obama gap between inspiration and substance:

More...

    there was something just a wee bit creepy about the mass messianism — "We are the ones we've been waiting for" — of the Super Tuesday speech and the recent turn of the Obama campaign. "This time can be different because this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America is different. It's different not because of me. It's different because of you." That is not just maddeningly vague but also disingenuous: the campaign is entirely about Obama and his ability to inspire. Rather than focusing on any specific issue or cause — other than an amorphous desire for change — the message is becoming dangerously self-referential. The Obama campaign all too often is about how wonderful the Obama campaign is.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:32 PM

"The most disturbing aspect of the Obama cult, to me, is his & his supporters use of Christian messianic language in their political rhetoric. I find that deeply, deeply disturbing considering the money he has piled up & who gave it to him.

I'm not in favor of evangelical political populism, thanks.

We've seen this sort of Protestant political crusading before--in a rapid rise and fall during the Gilded Age. They were notoriously anti-socialism and anti-labor radicalism, and ended up being a flash in the pan.

Lots of the same themes are resonating around today that were in the zeitgeist back then too. Back then, it was Primitive Baptists, Disciples of Christ, Methodists, and other evangelical Protestants who rejected denominationalism altogether, leading the charge.

It could certainly be argued that the born again Protestant culture is "extra-denominational" if you will."

Did Martin Luther King Jr scare you too?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:38 PM

More to the point, who scares you so damn much, Poppagator, to make you play race cards like you just did, hmmmm?

I tell you what. You come work my job with 85% African American kids with 95% free lunch poverty rate for one god damn day, and then come talk to me again.

I work with the kids Michelle and Barack Obama are leaving behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Amos
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:46 PM

What -- you think Hillary would be a better bet for them? Nader? What?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:56 PM

There are plenty of threads for debating the horse race. This thread doesn't need to be hijacked AGAIN by the Obama cult to shove their propaganda down our throats.

Back to the topic.

I have a confession to make. I had a conversation with my sister after talking to her about HER celebrity obsessions (did I mention she reads People Magazine religiously?), when she reminded me I had more than just the Beatles on my mind as a pubescent teen. For several years, I had 2 Paul Newman posters on my walls--one from Hud, one from Cool Hand Luke, and the Steve McQueen Great Escape poster w/him on the motorcycle.

I feel cleansed just admitting to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:02 PM

The worst thing about the last two statements is that these kids were left behind during the era of the "no child left behind act" and yet there are people here who would vote for McCain who would just continue the decline of American schools.
It should be about reading, writing, and arithmetic, I know, but with the current economy, the fact that wages have not for quite some time kept up with inflation, and the need for at least two incomes in most households, there needs to be more infrastructure created and dedicated to the children!

Sorry for the thread drift!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:05 PM

Race card my ass.

I read your diatribe about Protestant-evangelical messianic language, and it immediately occurred to me that MLK's message would fit your description of something you seeem to regard as an evil and scary phenomenon.

Believe me, if there were a Caucasian person who had so profound an effect on our recent history by articulating a radically and explicitly Christian message of non-violence, faith, and determination, I would have used that person's name instead of Dr. King's.

But Dr. King was the first and only example I could think of who would seem to put the lie to your rant. Sorry!

By the way, I'm sure I could match you percentage-point by percentage-point, and then some, if we were to compare our involvement with and understanding of black and/or poor folks. But let's not go there, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:17 PM

And don't let the screen door hit you in the ass on your way out.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:21 PM

She won't go there, P-Gator, 'cause she has a weak resume compared to lots of folks here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Amos
Date: 19 May 08 - 07:04 PM

I think there are distinctions to be made between those whose sole claim to fame is fame itself, and those who do something concrete. I put the Beatles in the latter category. Paul Newman? Well, maybe for his salad dressing. Obama? I'm betting on him for particular reasons, not as a fan. He had plenty of opportunities to take a nosedive off the welcome wagon, in my view, and he was balanced enough not to.

Casting the enthusiasm and hopefulness of people for a better future because of their choice of leaders as some sort of jejeune obsession is, on reflection, pretty uncharitable and even a touch anti-social. I am sure there are people who are madly obsessed with him in the same way rockstars sometimes induce young people to get, but on the whole it is distinctly possible that the hypothesis is a shitty one, fueled not by reason but by some internal bitterness. Sorry if this seems unduly harsh. I think the proposition is...what's the word...thinly disguised underhandedness.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:14 PM

Well said, Amos, except about Paul Newman. Have you never heard of his Hole in the Wall Camps for seriously ill children? There's a lot of good in what the man and his wife do outside of Hollywood. Hell, they don't even live there.

I wonder who we will all worship next week? Can't wait for Janet to tell us!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:28 AM

The problem is that that a lot of celebrity worship comes about because there are millions of people out there who will pay good money to see the films, watch the sports, buy the music and the magazines produced and about these 'shining stars'.

Paul Newman, for example, first became known as a film actor/star. People paid to go see films in which he starred and it is those ordinary people who put him, and countless others, in the high earnings bracket that they enjoy. the fact that he has put something back into the community speaks well for him but probably doesn't matter a jot to those who want to know all the details of his private life, the juicier the better.

If Britney Spears' brand of music had not been popular with the teenies do you think that we would be reading about her latest problems on the front pages of the mags in the checkout queue? How many other sad lives don't we hear about because the person involved did not catch the publics' imagination?

It is in the interest of big business to try and titillate the general population's appetite for stories about celebrities and the pervasive presence of the media in all parts of the lives of most people makes this relatively easy to do. You own life seems dull and uninteresting? Never mind, live vicariously through the life of your favourite celebrity!

It is bread and circuses, just as in ancient Rome. The difference now is that there are a vast variety of celebs, one to suit just about every taste on the planet. So choose your flavour - sports, music, films, religion or even politics. Concentrate on your own special 'love' and maybe you won't see quite as clearly what is happening out there in the big world.

I was in the UK when Diana died and was actually rather sickened by the behaviour of many of my countrymen. I thought that the Brits had more class than that! I also found it offensive, a few months back, when Britney Spears' problems were considered important enough to warrant an airing on the nationwide news. It seems that we are really getting to where triviality is king!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:44 AM

Actually jacqui, one need not be an artist to garner the level of attention of a Britney Spears. A good example is Paris Hilton, who of course bought her way into celebrity with the family fortune. JFK Jr. is another example. Other former presidents kids didn't rise to the level of celebrity that he did--even his sister didn't. And look at the way the American public became obsessed with his death.

Now, there wasn't any public funeral (just that abomination of a "public memorial service" that was done in NY without the approval or participation of the family) for JFK Jr that can be equated to the Princess Di debacle. But the fascination was there nonetheless.

If you look back up to the top of the thread (maybe I should cut and paste it down here again, so people actually know what I'm talking about) I am referring to an actual psychological profile of people who get involved in celebrity worship to varying degrees.

I don't really register on the scale at all, though I have a sister that registers on the "entertainment/social" level, except she doesn't really have family or friends who she visits around with about it the way many people do. She has something this psychological profile doesn't have on it, which is a natural curiousity about certain famous people.

For instance, after she retired, her & her husband were travelling the south & southeast in their motorhome, and she started hitting all the presidential libraries, the Vanderbilt place in NC, that sort of thing. They also went to a launch at the Cape in Fla. She likes to be part of historic things. The celebrity stuff, for her, is really just a time waster/relaxation thing more than anything else.

She is also a very outgoing, people oriented person. She likes to find people she admires, not has prurient interests in if that makes any sense. In other words, stuff like the Britney/Anna Nicole Smith stuff doesn't really interest her. But she loves to read about the actors and musicians she likes.

That stuff isn't really celebrity worship, IMO. So perhaps that is the reason it isn't included in the profile in the opening post to the thread? I dunno.

We do have certain fascinations with famous people that is perfectly legitimate, hence the popularity of biographies on TV, in books, in magazines, etc. We need to learn what makes one another tick.

But that isn't the phenomenon people are observing with Obama. This is like monster religious revival stuff--this is crowds like the evangelizers like Billy Graham get.

And that deeply disturbs many of us who have had very serious issues with the "Christian Evangelical White House" of the Bush years.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:14 AM

Where I find fault with this thread is that it was yet another thinly veiled attack on Obama and/or his supporters...

No mention of the Clinton-heads, the McCain-heads, the Nader-heads, the Donald Duck-heads or the Who-Gives-a-Rats-Ass-heads...

This has been my beef with Fantz all along and I keep calling her on it...

Hey, I don't care if she hates Obama, hates me, or Amos, Ron or her next door neighbor... That is her right... But these threads that are started by her that have just one purpose, and that is to put down Obama and his eupporters it getting rather tiresome and juvenilistic...

I think one thread by her entitled "Why I Hate Obama and his Supporters" would do just fine...

B~

p.s. I don't think that Fantz is dumb 'er nuthin'... She seems to have a purdy decent grasp of lots of policies, politics and issues... Maybe just a tad misdirected... Okay, alot misdirected...

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:29 AM

Every politician, deep in his or her heart, wishes to get 75,000 or 150,000 or 500,000 very excited people to show up at a local appearance he or she makes. It's what they are aiming for. Some succeed, due to a unique combination of their own personal attributes and the general circumstances all around them.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing when it happens? Well, it could be either, depending on the nature of the politician, right?

If Obama would make a good president, then it's a good thing. If he would not, then it's a bad thing.

Celebrity Worship Syndrome itself then...can be a good thing...or a bad thing...or a neutral thing. Depending on the circumstances and how they play out.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:40 AM

Bobert, here is what is needed to soothe your poor, aching head about the criticism of your preferred candidate.

Do what I and many other people here who are capable of exhibiting self-control here.

If you don't like what is being in a thread, close it & don't go back. Stop making these misogynist, really disturbing comments about women, Clinton, and me.

For instance, I won't go into a thread about Palestine and Israel. Won't touch them with a ten foot pole. Same with anything to do with the the Troubles. Ditto threads about birthdays, Nigerian scams, and the most extreme good ole boy thread here, the Mother of all BS Threads.

There is but a bare handful of posts from me in the "Popular Views on Obama" thread, which now stands at nearly 2,000 posts. People are entitled to have a thread or two about the candidate they support, so I stay out of it.

I'm not coming after you, Ron or Amos.

It is quite the other way around.

Any time I or someone tries to express a critical opinion of your preferred presidential candidate, the three of you go into pit bull attack mode.

You cannot control or stop people from expressing their political opinions here, including negative opinions about your candidate.

So why are you so obsessed with continuing to try doing that? Your candidate has won the race. So what is in it for you and Ron and Amos to keep attacking people who don't support Obama?

And here and now, I would like to personally thank Jack the Sailor for pulling back from exhibiting the same behavior you three continue to exhibit. I for one, really appreciate him backing off.

The three of you need to take a long time out from this place.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 20 May 08 - 10:49 AM

And I'll cross-post this to the "Largest Gatherings in History" thread too:

http://gamers.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/210208_games_characters.aspx

hehehe

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:19 PM

Oh, yeah. Self control and that poster to my mind just go hand in hand. lol

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:54 PM

Sez Ebbie, one of the rabid miniature poodles who is constantly sniping at my heels here.

I know how much you love your Mudcat vendettas Ebbie, so I wouldn't want to deprive you of your joy.

Hate away at me all you want. It's consuming you, m'dear. And only you.

Kiss kiss!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:26 PM

See, Fantz, this is where you constantly get it wrong... I make an objective" observation that you start threads about one topic and then use it as a vehicle to drop yet another bomb on Obama and/or his supporters...

Had you framed this thread at folks, regardless of their given icon, on "Celebrity Worship Syndrome" then it might have led to am actual discussion about folks who do tend to become worshipers... But you didn't do that at all... You just couldn't bring yourself to start a ***thoughtful*** thread without injecting the inference that supporters of Obama are worshipers...

I know that you think of me as a pit bull and in a way I am but I'd say that better than 90% of my criticism of your posts are in defense of yet another offensive shot of yours agains Obama, me or Obama suopporters in general... I have been playing defense here... If you would quit attacking then I would quit counter-punching...

You remind me of a cat that I have... Every morning she pokes another cat that we have and then the other cat retaliates and then the first cat starts hissing and carrying on in disgust??? That's the way I see it here... If you attack, I will defend... I think that is purdy much human nature...

And if you attack my friends here I will defend them, too... Especially Ebbie who has more class in her finger nail clippings than you have in yer entire body... She is the sweetest Mudcatter I have ever met and if you were to sit down and talk with her for 5 minutes you'd be ashamed to ever say anything negative about her and you can take that to the bank...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:30 PM

Well said Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:46 PM

"If you attack, I will defend... I think that is purdy much human nature..."

True. It is also the essential problem in human relations, right from the level of individuals up to nations or ethnic groups.

Someone has to not retaliate for the last attack before peace can be established.

And that is why Jesus, Gandhi, Buddha, and others like them placed so much emphasis on concepts of forgiveness, turning the other cheek, etc.

It's not easy. I think it is the greatest challenge of all...much tougher than retaliating, fighting, and seeking that elusive "final victory" that usually cannot be found.

Similarly, resisting the natural impulse to get in the last word is something most people (and dogs) are virtually incapable of, and this forum is spectacular proof of that! ;-)

The hostile and unforgiving will sometimes, of course, simply walk out in a huff, thus terminating the conversation as far as their part in it goes. But even when they do they presently reappear and resume the quarrel in some entirely different thread.)

It's as pervasive as celebrity worship.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:06 PM

Whoa! Like most people, I'm neither as good as some people think nor as bad as others think. (But a hug for you, Bobert.) And a kiss- just a single one - for FtP (I just don't like little cutesies, like 'kiss, kiss'. Too, too precious.)

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:18 PM

To at least try to clear up the worship of one "celebrity", JFK Jr.

I think, and feel, that people were looking to John Jr. to bring back "Camelot" as the succesor to his father's legacy. America has had quite a long affair with the Kennedy clan to begin with and there's not alot of Americans (or any human being I know of) that didn't shed a tear after watching John John salute his father's casket as it rolled along the procession route. John Jr. was a very handsome young man, very well liked, and reportedly very intelligent. Although he himself said that he was not interested in entering the political arena his magazine was very well received and he seemed to be on his way to a very promising career. Some may feel envious or not give a damn about him because he did come from an affluent, powerful family that was at one time headed by a man regarded as a real SOB. His Uncle Ted and cousin Willie both caused further disgrace. I personally felt that John Jr. was more or less getting a deserved good deal having survived the scrutiny that a family living under the microscope experiences.

Unfortunately a new Camelot was not in the cards and his life ended all too soon.

I do keep wondering what might have been...

Now back to your regularly scheduled bickering.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:29 PM

Actually Bobert, the conversation in this thread was going along fine until you showed up and took idiotic umbrage, assuming my motives for starting the thread were, really, all about you.

Get over your sexist jerk self.

It isn't always about you and Obama.

Like I said elsewhere earlier, some of you paranoid Obamamaniacs need to take a Mudcat break.

Jack the Sailor has been able to do this, but for some reason, you just can't let go.

So as of this post Bobert, I'm done responding to all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:35 PM

Thank the gods!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 20 May 08 - 05:41 PM

Oh not you, sweetie.

I have a special place reserved for you in my heart.

I'm talkin' the Royal Pains in the Ass of Bobert, Ron & Amos.

Done, done & done with their drivel and squibble.

Tootleeeooo!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 May 08 - 05:56 PM

The opening sentances of the OPENING POST of this discussion:

"Well, so many things got me thinking of it this weekend. The Obama cult & the political idol worship of people like him, the Kennedys, and other politician charismatics.

My sister's obsession with American Idol and Dancing With the Stars..."

This diatribe did NOT start off as a general discussion of celebrity-obession which then "naturally" turned to the subject of Obama's recent huge-crowd event; from the very beginning, quite specifically, it has been a criticism of the adulation of politicians, and of one politician in particular: Barack Obama and parenthetically, "people like him," to wit, the Kennedys.

Who do you hate more: the object of all this affection, or the masses of people who offer it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 May 08 - 06:26 PM

Who do you hate more: the object of all this affection, or the masses of people who offer it up?

And why?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Donuel
Date: 20 May 08 - 06:36 PM

There are people who handle their celebrity well like George Clooney and those who do not. There are fans who handle celebrities well and those who do not.

Personally I like it when whako celebs don't handle other celebs very well like when Cruise goes out of his way to tell other celebs how to live.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 08 - 06:44 PM

"I have a special place reserved for you in my heart."

Yoicks. Why is that evil grin so visible?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 08 - 06:47 PM

Thnak you, P-Gator...

I've been trying to point this out but seems that FtP's computter is mouseless and she is unable to reread and apparently can't remember the first sentence of her own friggin' thread???

But now I'm the bad guy who has to sit on the Fantz-purgatory bench for 300 years or so because I pointed this out...

Hey, I asked the woman to explain why it was that she singled out the Obama supporters and her answer...

....wippo, nada, nuthin'...

Then she doesn't likwe the question so she puts the blast on me as if I had rabies 'n cooties and she ain't never acknowledged that I had pointed out that she ahd no interest what-so-ever in "Celebrity Worship Syndrome" but just wanted to continue her rant aginst the koolaid drinkin' Obama supporters???

Go figure???

Yo, LH,

I learned a long time ago that it is never "right" to fight... I learned that in martial arts... But there is a flip side to that and that is the defense part... Retaliate implies using ***more*** force than is needed to defend one's self... I am a believer in "minimal force" and I think that is what I have used here... You know me... You know that I'm not one for revenge or for doing more than is necessary to get a point accross or to defend myself or my friends when under attack...

Fantz is an attacker... I am a defender... No excess force but the greater the attack the greater the force needed to defend it... Nuff said...

Yo, Eb...

Thanks fir the hug... Here's one back: ((((((((hug))))))))))))

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 20 May 08 - 07:43 PM

Poppagator, even the quotes you use demonstrate I didn't start the thread just to bash Obama.

Last Sunday, we had the news that Kennedy had been hospitalized, and were beginning to hear about the monster rally in Portland.

I also mentioned someone I knew personally who sort of fit the profile I gave in the opening post.

Most the posts that followed focused in on exactly what I was talking about, which wasn't just Obama.

If that is all you saw in the opening post to this thread, I would suggest that is because you aren't very objective regarding Obama, or very open to tolerating others speaking of him critically.

But you know what, that says a lot about you, not me.

There are exactly two people in this thread who took umbrage with my mentioning Obama by name. Everyone else has simply tried to participate.

The two of you hijacked the thread, attack style, and tried to shut it down.

In my book, that makes both of you jerks.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 08 - 07:56 PM

"...I didn't start this thread just to bash Obama."

The operative word here is "just"...

So I'm wondering what the other motives were???

I rest my case...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:07 PM

It's a thinly veiled attack on William Shatner. That was the real reason behind this thread, and everybody knows it!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Amos
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:18 PM

Hey, it's nothing to me if someone doesn't support Obama.

But if they say things about him which are spiteful, exagerrated, hateful, demonizing, covertly destructive AND not even true, then I think the man deserves some defense in absentia.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Joe_F
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:31 PM

In saints, we were vicariously virtuous. In celebrities, we are vicariously vicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 12:04 PM

Or in the case of Paris Hilton, vicariously vacuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:19 PM

Vicarious vacuousity!
It's the new monstrosity!
Avoid the effort in your head
Of keeping every thought stone dead,
The mental void of a mindless doxy
Can now be brought to you by proxy!
So hand the numbing of your brain
Over to someone better trained!
And you will find, with great velocity
A better brand of thought-viscosity
Dullness without the animosity!
No threat of any harsh ferocity!
No risk of unforeseen verbosity!
It's not nefarious!
It's vicarious!
VIcarious VAAAA-CUUUU--- OSITY!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:13 PM

Very good! ;-D Would you be available to write some campaign songs for Chongo and the PPA? (Primate Party of America)

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:36 PM

Well, I dunno. "Vicarious bestiality" just doesn't quite have the same ring to it, ya know??? Nor does "Synthetic Simianism".   "Chumps Being Chimps" might fly,t hough...





A

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:52 PM

How about "chimps being champs"? How about "gorilla my dreams, I adore you"?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:59 PM

Assuming that Fantasmagoofball was posing a subject for serious discussion rather than yet another excuse to try (like a Chihuahua yapping at a lion) to trash Barack Obama, I actually wrote up quite a nice essay on the subject of Celebrity Worship Syndrome. But I see that it's pointless to post it here since this is just another attempt to try to persuade people to vote for Ralph Nader (a man who proudly asserted that not only does he not drive, he doesn't even have a drivers' license, and then attains his celebrity by writing a book that purports to tell people which cars are safe to drive and which are not).

No sale!

You see, Fanty, you have established a reputation for duplicity. You keep starting Trojan Horse threads.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, what I wrote on the presumed topic is quite good, but I'll save it for another time.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: jacqui.c
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:03 PM

Don - I, for one, would like to see what you wrote. Please share!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:14 PM

Just not here, Don... There is no reason to bring anything intellectual or objective into this tarnished thread... Might of fact, lookin' at who is left, this thread is being trashed by the chimps... Once that occurs, it ain't long before it falls into oblivion...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:29 PM

"this thread is being trashed by the chimps..."

That's a specist comment, Bobert! I demand that you withdraw it at once.

;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:47 PM

Okay, let me rephrase...

...this thread is being redecorated by the chimps...

That better???

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:57 PM

Hmmm. Well...okay.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:18 PM

Hmm. Yeah, Bobert, I see what you mean.

Okay, jacqui.c, I'll see if I can pop it into a more appropriate place. It isn't really the key to Nirvana, but I think it makes a couple of good points. But it would just get lost here, I'm afraid.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Slag
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:58 PM

Interesting, interesting. I am a bit of a "word" freak, you might say, and I find a discussion of celebrity by some who have a bit of celebrity or who have a shoulder and elbow rubbing relationship with celebs, well, interesting. Celebrity, star, above, beyond, HIGHER than ordinary mortals these celebrities. Some, like me resent, not the altitude but the attitude, that sometimes accompanies such status. It is not out of jealousy I hold such a view. The last thing on earth I would want is fame. I value my freedom and privacy far above the firmament. Rather, it is resentment of arrogance and hubris that I tend to decry celebrity.

But then someone threw the word "charisma" into the mix. Now THAT is an interesting word. Papa-G could undoubtedly tell you about the origin and meaning of the term. In essence it means having a gift and more specific, a divine gift. Since the time of Christ it has closely been associated WITH Christ as He was the Anointed One. He was THE gift from God and yet today that gift is so little understood and rejected. And yet we retained the term. I don't think the use of the term "celebrity" applied to mortals is particularly blasphemous. There are, after all, many "stars" in the heavens and, truth be known, there are more stars than there are people. There are more stars than all the people who ever were or who will ever be in one large galaxy alone and there are hundreds of billions of galaxies. So find your place in the firmament. Shine brightly. Let your gifts be known. But do not think more highly of yourself than you ought. I like what Bobert said about some of the celebs that he has known. Aside from the celeb status (which is conferred by doting fans[fanatics]) they were really just ordinary folks.

When we discover our gift(s) this is a good thing as it gives direction and purpose in our lives when we put them to GOOD use.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 08:25 PM

Yeah, celebs are ordinary folks and most of them end up wishing they could live ordinary lives again after awhile.

I'm sure glad I never became famous, cos all the unwanted attention would probably have killed me.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 08 - 08:51 PM

And fame is a releative thing... When I play a festival folks come up to me and want to talk this and that and ask me about this or that and I spend as much time as I can with each and every one while trying to be sure that my stuff gets moved from the stage and packed away safely in my car... Then it's yak, yak, and more yak...

I remember meeting Bruce Springstein back in '69... I had booked his band "Child" and I took him to "The Village" in Richmond for lunch and we found out that we had both spent summers at the Jersey shores (Long Beach Island) and so we talked beach stuff... Music never came up...

I donno... I reckon the world is this big totum pole to lotta folks and like folks like Bruce is at the top but he ain't... He doesn't even want to be at the top... He just wants to be able to take his kids to the Jersey beaches without gettin' folks all over him 'casue he is this "star"... He just wants to talk about the good ol' days when you could drive from Surf City to Barnekutt Lighthouse and there weren't no houses for the 10 mile trip...

Me, too... I don't expect alot of folks to understand but if Bruce were to come here and read this he'd be sayin', "Yeah, that's really what it's about"...

Ain't no worshiping for anyone who has, like Slag said, looked upon the stars and realized the realationship of our own existences to the larger picture... I understand that... That's why I choose to live out in the country where I can go outside and look up at real stars... I have my favorites... Some have names and others, who knows??? But in grooving with the real stars it brings this thing on out little ball of life so much more into perspective...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 08 - 08:53 PM

No worries, mate.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 08 - 08:59 PM

Gotcha, Bobert. I love living out in the country near a small town where I can live in total peace and quiet and not be bothered with much. Man, I would hate to be famous and have people pestering me every time I stuck my face out the door or walked down the street. It would be like a living hell.

I've got a cousin who gets all snooty and looks down his nose at me because he lives in Washington D.C. (where the important people are?) and I live, to quote him, "in the wilds of Ontario". Heh! ;-D What the heck is he on? I guess he still must want to be famous. Well, I hope he gets his wish one day! It might cure him if he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 08 - 09:35 PM

Okay, it seems it might be all right after all. It's just a brief bit, but here are my thoughts.

I don't think I've ever fallen victim to Celebrity Worship Syndrome.

Probably what inoculated me against it was that when I was fairly young, I was in a position to have met a number of celebrities in a couple of different fields. I realized early on that, for the most part, they were ordinary people who had developed their abilities mainly through dedication and hard work. They may have begun with certain natural endowments such as a particularly mellifluous voice in the case of a singer or actor, or a particular type of temperament and physical build in the case of a ballerina, world-class figure skater, or Olympic fencer. And then they built on those natural endowments and honed them. More often than not, if they are successful and famous, it's due to their love of and dedication to their chosen activity and the fact that they've worked very hard at it. Their fame is a by-product.

I also noticed that most of these people would have pursued their favorite activity whether or not they were ever paid for it or attained any recognition from it. The activity itself was the goal. And often, even in competitive sports, they seemed to be more interested in a "personal best" than trying to excel others.

I have met people who might be considered "celebrities" whom I admire greatly, because of a talent they have developed and the manner in which they use it. But do I "worship" them? No.

There are, of course, lots of famous folks out there who have no detectable talent and who don't seem to have made any special effort other than simply being at the right place at the right time, and who are famous for being famous.

In cases like this, it isn't a matter of "the emperor has no clothes." It's that "the clothes have no emperor!"

One of my main rôle models is a fictional character:    Atticus Finch.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:41 PM

Beautiful, Don and so very true in so many ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,MeepTheSheep
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:56 PM

I can't believe 1/3 of the world's population would fall to it. How much of the world has a notion (or the same notion) of celebrity and how many of those would be taken in by it? 1/3 seems unusually high, but then again what would I know!

I'm always fascinated by what tends to be called 'fangirling', even when it's a boy doing it. This tends to involve not celebrities but fictional character or, more commonly, real actors playing fictional characters.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: akenaton
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:19 AM

Perhaps my friend Guest is simply trying to find different ways of explaining, that neither Mr Obama nor Mrs Clinton are likely to be even a tiny part of the answer to America's problems.

Those of you who have watched the shuttle of Dem/Pub over the last few decades must be aware of this but seem to be in some sort of denial.
From the UK the celebrity status of Mr Obama does seem to have taken on a life of its own, driven by a media thristing for readers and viewers.

If you doubt this is possible, the media in the UK have made our current PM universally unpopular due mainly to his looks and presentation style.
Although Mr Brown has made some serious mistakes in office, his political crimes were as nothing compared to his predecessor Mr Blair who was able (due largely to a fawning media) to actually win an election after the debachle of Iraq.

I cannot understand the animosity again being shown to guest...(I thought for a couple of days, love had broken out).
Perhaps in America it is unusual for a woman to be intelligent and witty and out-spoken all at the same time?

Relax.....You'll grow into it!...........Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:58 AM

You are my prince, always Ake!

It would have been nice to have an interesting and lively conversation about the Obama cult phenomenon, or the Kennedy cult phenomenon, but clearly the children haven't figured out yet this isn't about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: kendall
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:38 AM

I find celebrety worship disgusting. How in the hell can Britney Spears' latest screw up be more newsworthy than, say, a typhoon in Myanmar that has killed tens of thousands of people?

I've never worshipped anyone, but I must admit that when Pete Seeger sang me his brand new song on the phone it added to my profound respect for this man.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:57 AM

Nice piece Don. I think that you've hit the nail on the head. There is a difference between those who deserve special status for their particular gift and those who think that they deserve that status just for being.

As a teenager I did fall prey to the pop star worship but, over time one realises that these people are just the same as any of the rest of us. As a friend once said "They all have to sit to poo". Try getting that picture out of your head next time you see Donald Trump on the small screen!

I'm married to a man who has some of that 'celebrity' status and, even though, due to the damage to his vocal cord, he isn't performing now we still get people who recognise him coming up to talk to him. He always manages to make them feel rather special - I've seen silly grins on some faces when they walk away. However, I have never seen him use that status to get special treatment or to do the 'don't you know who I am?' lark.

Most of the other well known names in Folk that I have met generally have the same attitude, although I can think of one real exception right now. Those are the people that I admire, for their talent. If I never see another word about Britney or Paris Hilton I'll be quite happy - the lives of vacuous little girls really hold no interest at all. So far as politicians are concerned, one needs to have an interest there, if only to try and choose the one who is likely to do the least damage and who maybe can do a bit of good.

In the case of Ted Kennedy he has spent over forty years in public service and, from the reports I have heard, has achieved some benefits for the American people in that time. His situation now, to me, warrants sympathy, as would be the case for just about anyone who has been handed such a prognosis. That is totally different from worshiping the man.

Re Obama - my opinion may be different from that of others but I do think that this man has the potential to do some good and, again, in my opinion, which is just as valid as anyone else's, more so than any of the other candidates. However, I do not worship the man - I don't even worship my husband and he's #1 in my book.

I would point out that the majority of Mudcatters get along because, although we may not always agree on a lot, we RESPECT the point of view of other members. Sometimes reading another point of view can make a change in the way that I look at a particular topic but, whatever the result, I think that most of us are mature enough in outlook not to feel threatened or insulted that our view on any given subject is not the official party line. That results in some very good discussions, rather than the tiresome squabbles which erupt when any particular person seems not to be able to tolerate any view but their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:01 PM

Ha! Nice post, Akenaton. ;-) Fantasma is considered an interloper in the hallowed halls of the club here. As such, she draws a particularly vitriolic reaction from many of its members.

You're quite right, Americans are mostly in denial about the utterly bankrupt nature of their flip-flop Democrat/Republican duopoly. They keep grasping at the same old straws, time after time. They want to believe that this time, just once, Tweedledee will be a genuine alternative to Tweedledum.

And, you know, I rather like Obama. I just can't stand the party he belongs to...or the other one either.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:27 PM

I like him, too, LH, and that is why I am willing to break with my beloved Grren Party on a mere hunch that he might be someone special...

No, not another JFK hopefully...

JFK wasn't all that great... Had he not been assasinated he would have been remembered as the president who got US bogged down in Vietnam and probably would have had approval numbers like Bush has...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:33 PM

Yeah, that's a distinct possibility, Bobert. The sad thing is...we'll never know.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 23 May 08 - 08:25 AM

Technically, akenaton isn't the prince, but the heretical dreamer king.

And god knows the celebrity worship has already begun in the Ted Kennedy thread, where katlaughing is zealously deleting my posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 May 08 - 01:35 PM

I was never much interested in Ted Kennedy. That's why you haven't seen me on that thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 08 - 03:10 PM

"Fantasma is considered an interloper in the hallowed halls of the club here. As such, she draws a particularly vitriolic reaction from many of its members." LH

Really? That's why?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 May 08 - 03:20 PM

I think it's one of the key reasons, Ebbie. I'm not saying it's the only one. There are a number of them.

She's partly to blame herself for those negative reactions, because of her own very combative attitude to others, her frequently hurled accusations of "sexism", and so on. She's also a "guest", however, and people are far ruder in general to guests than they are to other members...when they choose to be rude, that is. She's also a very notable nonconformist on certain political/social issues, and that draws quite hostile reactions from some members no matter who it is who is nonconforming to the general tune around here.

She doesn't like Barack Obama one bit...that's guaranteed to draw a lot of ire here from people who have gotten emotionally involved in backing his campaign.

Furthermore, there are people here who evidently have long standing personal grudges of their own toward her...and she toward them...and that's another factor. They consider her a "black sheep" here. She considers them to be a bunch of sheep, period.

Add it all up, stir with a dash of nutmeg, cook at low heat for 5 years or so, and you've got a pretty nasty concoction brewing when it's finally ready to put on the table. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 08 - 05:03 PM

Well my friend, you must be the Warrior Princess.
But remember dreamers can also leave their mark, as the old king has done; and heretics are always one step ahead of the game :0)

Rebels have one trump card in their hand above all others; they neither seek nor need love.

Keep up the fight, never give in and never lower your guard ...even for an instant....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 08 - 07:15 PM

Humph! I'm getting miffed- I keep reading this as 'Celebrity WORKSHOP Syndrome.

Does that mean that unbeknownst to me I'm a worshiper? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 May 08 - 07:18 PM

where katlaughing is zealously deleting my posts.

Hahahaha...makes me live up to name...that's so funny, that is!

Ebbie, Isis, Isis! Ra, Ra, Ra!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 23 May 08 - 09:08 PM

Little Hawk, you forgot to mention the entertainment value here for those who use the forum as their personal support group. Prayer threads, for instance. Highly entertaining.

In fact, I think I hear an "Ommmmmm..." emanating from the Teddy thread as we speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:32 PM

Yeah, I guess. I have really no objection to people doing stuff like that if they want to. We all get something we are looking for here or we wouldn't come here, and if it's personal support some people are looking for, well, why not?

It costs a whole lot less than getting your head messed up once a week by a professional therapist! ;-)

Have you never found prayer effective, Fantasma?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:23 AM

Janet, please refrain from addressing or referring to individual Mudcatters. If you want to address the issues, fine. If you want to insult or attack people, I'll have to put you back on 100% deletion.

Your manners have been sorely deficient lately. This is your one and only warning. Clean up your act and act civil for a change, or I'll have to put you on the bench for a while.

Be nice. I know it's hard for you, but do it anyhow.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 24 May 08 - 08:09 AM

And I'm sure you will be your usual fair self & delete all the personal attacks naming me too, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: kendall
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:41 AM

If the first attack is deleted, there will be no retaliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:00 AM

What Kendall said...

I can't think of anyone here, myself included, who has unilaterally attacked Fantz... Seems everyone here is buzy defending from such attacks from her...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: bobad
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:04 AM

Hey guys, dont't turn this into a thread that's all about her, as she seems to like to make you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 May 08 - 01:09 PM

Well, one real celebrity died today. If Kendall came any where close to hero worship it would have been over Utah Phillips. He was a good example of a man who deserved the accolades and yet did not have his head turned by the attention.

Utah's fans knew better than to treat him like a celebrity however.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 08 - 11:28 AM

My dog has an intense desire to be treated like a celebrity. Hero worship, adoration, groupies...he wants it all. When he dies, expect a full state funeral and national mourning to be held.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:23 PM

I thik Akneton's point is well made--the core issues of existence in North America are not going to go away because one perspn gets elected to high office. But it would be really naive to believe they would.

It is important to recognize how much influence can emanate from the bully pulpit, though, and within the context of that influence it is probably much better to have an individual who is articulate, relatively honorable and who has a deep regard for understanding things in their correct context rather than whipsawing the public theater with stimulus-response chains of Bushian dramatizations.

Obama and to a lesser degree Hillary, share these abilities. I don't really think celeb infatuation, which most epople outgrow by the time they are 18, has anything to do with it.
There is actual importance at play in this race, not just media hype.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: robomatic
Date: 25 May 08 - 01:01 PM

US, People, Celebrity Gossip, Entertainment.

"Stuff that doesn't matter about people who don't know me."

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 May 08 - 02:17 PM

Nobody knows how famous I am.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:53 PM

The Man, The Myth, The Legend In His Own Mind, here he is folks.. Chief Chaos!!!!!

In the case of Brittany Spears, Lindsey Lohan, etc., I wonder if their antics aren't simply a reaction to not having a childhood as the rest of us did (both were child "actors" for Disney). Do they view their "ratings" as whether and how much they are "loved" because they didn't have the real thing growing up in the spotlight?

If true, should we perhaps pity them?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:46 PM

Yes, being emotionally deprived or bruised in various ways in childhood can definitely cause people to seek the recognition and appreciation and love that they think fame (or riches) (or "success") will bring them. I've seen quite a bit of that dynamic at work in my own family over the years. It can cause a person's whole life to become a desperate and often very painful search for something they never would have needed to look for at all if they'd fully understood what was going on.

You cannot find outside of you what's not already alive and well inside of you. No one told me that when I was a child. They made sure, to the contrary, that I would seek everywhere possible, except within myself for what I needed. Why? They didn't know any better. They were themselves lost in the same futile search.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: bobad
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:52 PM

"No one told me that when I was a child."

That what drugs and/or eastern religions are for.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:00 PM

OR both, yes.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 08 - 10:36 PM

"Fame doesn't take away the pain
It just pays the bills..."

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 08 - 11:32 PM

Still looking outside for "it", bobad?

Look, man, I have observed close up the utter folly and gross stupidity and waste of lives spent trying to be someone "special" (meaning someone who is supposedly more successful, richer, more famous, has a better car than the next guy, has a bigger house, is farther up the social or the power ladder, gets more applause, etc...). It all arises out of some kind of deep insecurity, a deep lack of self-esteem that will not look itself straight in the face, a deep inability to confront one's real self and deal with one's real self, and it's total absolute bullshit from A to Z. I spit on it.

I'll take the Eastern religions anytime.

The right reason to do something, to do anything really WELL is for its OWN sake just because you absolutely LOVE it...not because you think it'll make you someone "special" or put you farther up the comparative ladder of "success". It's the desire to strive toward perfection, toward an ideal. It has nothing to do with being more "special" than anyone else. It has nothing to do with winning social approval. It has nothing to do with competition with anyone. It has to do with aspiring toward the best you can imagine, because the best you can imagine is, in itself, beautiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 08 - 11:35 PM

Little Hawk:

Sometimes you write some really beautiful shit, dude.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 08 - 11:48 PM

Well, thanks, Amos. Every now and then someone here arouses me to a moment of really deep anger or passion, and I let loose with what I really think about something. This time it was bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Slag
Date: 26 May 08 - 12:17 AM

A lot of ground being covered in this thread and oddly enough, most of it is related to the topic. What was Dylan's line in "Desolation row"? re Albert Einstein? "You would not think of it to look at him, but he was FAMOUS long ago, for playing the electric violin on Desolation Row." I'm sure if that's wrong, it will be corrected shortly.

The word "worship" stems from the same source as "worthy". Worship means declaring that some one or some thing is worthy of praise. We praise our spouses, children, God, ideals, heroes, automobiles and so on. Hopefully this is done to the right degree for the right reasons. Screaming for the Beatles or Frank Sinatra or the 49ers is disproportionate praise. Perhaps this is what is meant by celebrity status: someone whose garnered praise exceeds realistic expectation.

When have you seen good teachers get the praise they deserve? Firefighters? Soldiers? Policeman? EMTs? MDs? Millions of hard working citizens providing for their families? Not very often, I would bet. And yet, it seems that from time to time we need the distraction and escape a good football or baseball game provides. We admire athletes and actors with well honed talents and ability. Give them their due praise but don't give them the big head by over-doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 08 - 12:54 AM

Slag:

Thou speakest here with great wisdom!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 08 - 09:33 AM

Nobody has gotten a better look at the flip side of fame than Bob Dylan. He started becoming very uncomfortable with its demands by 1965 and has spent a good deal of effort attempting to demolish or at least avoid other people's expectations of him ever since. This reputedly included deliberately making some "bad" records and/or radical changes in style that he hoped would alienate his more rabid fans and make them go away... ;-) (I presume that was the idea behind the album "Self Portrait", possibly was with "Nashville Skyline as well (change in style, that is, not "bad"), but that's debatable.) He also did crazy things...like deliberately pouring whisky all over his head one time in public...just to get people to think he was a complete idiot...again, so they would stop idolizing him and GO AWAY.

Kind of hilarious, in retrospect.

At the same time, his love of simply playing the live music has kept him doing it on a very full schedule to past age 60. And that's the right reason for doing it, just because you love it. He sure doesn't need to do it for any other reason. He could live easily on the royalties he gets.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 May 08 - 10:56 AM

"Ghandi" rides again.

Gorge Wasington, Abaram Linclon and Runnold Raygun could fittingly accompany him. (McGrath)

And Ruichard Thompson

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:20 PM

An interesting discussion for once!

- But isn't an artist putting out a "bad" album to get rid of rabid fans not only ripping off the honest, non-rabid fan but also betraying that Je Ne Ce Coix?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:25 PM

P'raps you mean "je ne sais quoi"?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:33 PM

Three years of highschool French were definitely wasted on me!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 May 08 - 10:33 PM

Yeah, me too.

Coup de grace = lawnmower.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 27 May 08 - 08:23 PM

I thought that was my friend Grace's car?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:35 PM

Actually coup de grace is what you DO with a lawnmower.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:14 PM

There was once a jeune fille on the Bois
Who committed a dreadful faux pas.
She loosened a stay
On her decollete,
Thus exposing her je ne sais quoi.