Best Folk Song writer ever

Subject: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: olddude
Date: 26 May 08 - 08:50 PM

Ok to start a small discussion, if you had to pick the single greatest folk song writer who ever lived, known or unknow what is the first one to come to mind.

Stephen Foster perhaps? Dylan? Who

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Joe_F
Date: 26 May 08 - 09:00 PM

Anon.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 May 08 - 09:07 PM

olddude-I'm not sure Foster thought on his songs as folk songs, it just so happened that way. Anon fits the bill perfectly. My vote goes to Irving Burge who wrote many of the calypsos made famous by Harry Belefonte.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 26 May 08 - 09:17 PM

I'm with Joe. The best songs are the ones that last not because of who wrote them, but because they are good songs - and the old traditional songs have stood the test of hundred of years.

Yes, there are lots of good folks writing good songs today - I enjoy singing them. But I think the best of them are those who have deep roots in folk culture and tradition.

Dan

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: kendall
Date: 26 May 08 - 09:21 PM

I don't mean to plow up a snake here, but seems to me that folk songs are not written. They are handed down through the oral tradition from generation to generation.
One of the oldest songs is The Fox. That one goes back to the 12th century, and no one knows who made it originally.

Now, if you want to talk songs written in the folk genre' by singer songwriters, I'd go for,Pete Seeger, Utah Phillips, Tom Paxton, Gordon Bok and Eric Bogle.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: olddude
Date: 26 May 08 - 09:45 PM

bogle, Seeger, good choices so is burge. I agree the best are handed down from generation to generation. How many versions of "granfathers waltz are there, hundreds or thousands because, they were granfathers waltz ... but we tend to tribute the music to an author maybe not the correct one but someone made it famous or brought it to the eye of the folk world, so I put them in that category whoever the they are. How about woody guthrie

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Banjovey
Date: 26 May 08 - 09:49 PM

McColl

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 May 08 - 09:53 PM

1954

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 08 - 10:29 PM

I think the best songwriter of the last 50 years is Bob Dylan...if I have to pick someone. That doesn't mean I think he's the best "Folk Song" writer, because that label doesn't really fit him. He went beyond that. He's just the best songwriter, period.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 May 08 - 10:42 PM

Your thread is PURE

B. S.

As Kendal has noted:

ANONYMOUS!!!

This person is not only the BEST but also the most prolific.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Joe - we now have "above" and "below"....how about another "exclusive" section for those with MC roots to the 90's...the newbie-diaper-stench is distressing to the nerves.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:01 PM

Subjective as this thread is my vote would be for Stan Rogers.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: the button
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:02 PM

Not just any old "anon." The anonymous hacks who turned out broadsides in the 19th century (often acting as unwitting collectors of traditional songs), giving us 95% of the folksongs we have today.

Then the other anons got hold of them, stripped away some of the flowery verbiage, and added some truly beautiful melodies.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,iancarterb
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:07 PM

Gargoyle has the answer right, and there's only one right academic answer to the explicit question. If you know who wrote it, it probably hasn't passed into oral tradition yet, and likely hasn't wandered through variants in 8 languages by people who nver heard the radio. Such songs can't be common in English any more.
My preferred variant on the implicit question is 'the best writer of songs that SOUND like folk songs,' and I have never heard anyone better at that than Stan Rogers. Gillian Welch is the best still living and writing in English that I'm familiar with.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: topical tom
Date: 26 May 08 - 11:11 PM

I agree totally with kendall's list though I personally would not have chosen Gordon Bok.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: CupOfTea
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:49 AM

If yer looking for a "folk song writer" perhaps a way of parsing it out is: who is the known author who has the most songs that other folks have thought was "Trad?"

Works of Robert Burns, Si Kahn, Pete Seeger, some of the Scottish and Irish writers in a traditional vein have had that misattribution. In some cases when newer songs (especially from the other side of the Atlantic) are performed by singers who also do a good line in the very old songs, that the "trad" gets assumed by listeners not aware of the actual author. I particularly got a kick out of being earnestly told that "The Scotsman" was a very traditional song, and couldn't possibly have been written by an American bluegrass guy...

Songwriters who have multiple works written in my lifetime that I believe will live on "in the tradition:"
Woody Guthrie
Pete Seeger
Eric Bogle
Gordon Bok
Phil Ochs
Sidney Carter
Tom Paxton
Andy M. Stewart
Tommy Sands

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:27 AM

Not ANON but TRAD.

eric

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: mark gregory
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:35 AM

Anonymous or anon or trad should be replaced with "author not known" or perhaps "author(s) not yet known"

mark

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: fat B****rd
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:22 AM

Maybe not the best but I believe the most profitable to be Trad. Arr BY....

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:15 AM

Mark Gregory, why ?

eric

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:16 AM

IMO Guest iancarterb has it about right, at least as far as the UK is concerned.
The singing tradition among both the Irish Travelling and settled communities lasted somewhat longer here, allowing written material to be taken up and adapted, but sadly, even that appears to have disappeared now.
This doesn't mean that new songs can't be written using traditional styles - but that's a different thing altogether.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:24 AM

It's remarkably persistent this idea that, in order for a song to be classified as a folk song, its author must be anonymous, isn't it?

Many folk songs are anonymous purely because we have no record of the author's name - it's as simple as that! Nevertheless, someone must have written them. They didn't just spring, fully formed, from the earth!

The fact is that any song, whether it has a known author or not, can become a folk song as long as it has undergone the 'folk process' which has been discussed exhaustively in previous threads.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:48 AM

"She moved through the fair" written by Padraig Colum, is in the oral tradition.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:57 AM

Guest Shimrod....it was not necessary for people to write down songs back in the days when the men harvested the fields manually and grafted on ships of the line. At the end of a week of harvesting the land...the farmer would supply copious amounts of liquor or ale and every man, to a man, was 'expected' to sing..whether or not he had a voice for it. Most of these men were illiterate but could make up their own songs...as did the men on board ships. So a tradition of Folk music came about with many anonymous 'inventors' rather than writers of songs. Over many ensuing decades, certain people have collected these songs and many have been put to paper...so as you say, they did not spring fully formed from the earth...but from the many illiterate men who worked the earth and sailed the seas.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:12 AM

Step a bit outside the British Isles and things can look very different.

There are maybe 200 songs by Pir Sultan Abdal that have survived in mainly-oral tradition for 400 years. Pir Sultan was something like a Turkish William Blake, and was hanged by a feudal lord for leading an insurrection in the time of Suleyman the Magnificent, so the Joe Hill factor kept him in popular memory as well as the quality of his songs.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:37 AM

'but from the many illiterate men who worked the earth and sailed the seas.'

They may not have been illiterate. They just didn't live at a time where people registered themselves owners of intellectual property. To write something like say The Cutty Wren or Sir Patrick Spens argues considerable intellligence and education. Certainly a command of and familiarity with creative processes. This stuff didn't just spring from the dull earth.

Their work may simply not have have had a discernabble value to people who account themselves arbiters of what is an important folksong.

You can see the same sort of process at work even to this day.

They might be anon or trad, but only because some gang of self important arseholes whose job it was to chronicle the times couldn't see the value.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:06 AM

Georgiansilver - I agree with what you say, and songs made that way are of course a key element of the tradition, but I understand that some music historians are now suggesting that those 'mouth-made' songs have tended not to survive as intact, or to have travelled as far, as the ones which were actually written down.

I've hear people say that there's a growing school of thought that perhaps the bulk of the 'classic' trad repertoire was actually composed by a comparatively small number of skilled makers, who did in fact write them down, thus making transmission more likely - and as has been said above this definitely applies to the broadside writers.

I've no idea if this applies pre-broadside, and it could be that the pond has been muddied by the activities of very early collectors (the broadside idea didn't spring from nowhere after all), but someone suggested there might have been a few musical equivalents of Shakespeare, who hoovered up stories and perhaps other writers' works, and made good songs from them which were then robust enough to remain recognisable even after much erosion and reconstruction through the centuries.

I personally believe that the elements of song which render it liable to survive are the images it conjures up, and the emotions it triggers - and that applies to story songs, work/community songs and relationship songs. A good tune may survive because its a good tune, and a good story may survive because it's a good story, and some good lyrics survive because they're strong or useful (hence floating verses) but a good song - as a song - survives because it 'goes in.' People tend to want to sing it the way they heard it, so the erosion is slower than if they'd felt it needed improving.

While the folk process does periodically give words or tune a make-over, you can usually tell by comparing radically different versions of a great song that there was a skilled mind at work in the initial conception and construction, which time has not been able completely to obscure.

There's nothing to say that that skilled mind was literate or educated in any way, but it would be reasonable to suggest that it was practised, and took the process of song writing seriously.

It's certainly true that we do know the authors of a lot of songs now called Trad, and people are finding more all the time. Known authorship does not exclude a song from the oral trad repertoire (pre recording), and nor from the recorded trad repertoire (post recording). The more authors we can identify (along with key make-overers too) the better, in my opinion.

This is not to take anything away from song carriers and sources, but how handy would it be if we knew who first made the Musgrave/Groves story into a song, and what he or she actually composed? We'd then be able to interpolate all sorts of things from the various versions.

Tom

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:07 AM

And what Al said, too

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:25 AM

yes indeed contrast this with the craftsmen who built the great cathedrals - sometimes we know their names and even how much they got paid.

right up the start of the 17th century - we cannot be sure how much of Shakespeares plays are written by the man himself. Small wonder we have no record of the great ballad writers - the great performers who must surely have edited them.

However their genius is luminous -in the hands of a skilled performer. That brings us neatly back to brian peters new album!

well done mate!

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: the button
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:43 AM

This is kind of relevant, if any of you haven't seen it before. Articles on the passage of songs from print into the tradition. Interesting stuff.

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/dungheap.htm

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 27 May 08 - 08:30 AM

From Button's excellent link:

"the two traditions should not be considered as entirely separate"

An important if topical (here, at least) statement. So, was it Child, then, who began the academic separation, and later romanticisation, which led to the 54 definition, and the eventual elevation of carriers over writers? (Please reply using only words ending in ion)

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: The Doctor
Date: 27 May 08 - 08:33 AM

No-one has mentioned Graeme Miles, author and composer of literally hundreds of songs between the late 40s and early 70s. Many, perhaps even the majority, have been lost over the years, so we'll never know whether there was a classic amongst them or whether they deserved to disappear. But that seems to be the lot of folk songs anyway. But enough have survived to show what a great writer he was, and if you're not familiar with his work try Martyn Wyndham-Read's CD 'Where Ravens Feed', and especially the title track.
Whether he, or anyone else, belongs in this list of greats, however, is entirely a matter of personal taste and opinion. I tend to pick great songs rather than songwriters.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:27 AM

"At the end of a week of harvesting the land...the farmer would supply copious amounts of liquor or ale and every man, to a man, was 'expected' to sing..whether or not he had a voice for it. Most of these men were illiterate but could make up their own songs...as did the men on board ships. So a tradition of Folk music came about with many anonymous 'inventors' rather than writers of songs."

Forgive me, 'Georgiansilver', but this seems a bit hypothetical to me. Have you got any evidence to support this hypothesis?

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:27 AM

The answer to the title of this thread will never be answered but the devil wrote all the best tunes!

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:32 AM

The Doctor is correct of course - there is Graeme Miles, and the rest.

Listen to Craig Morgan Robson sing "When the Snows of Winter Fall" and marvel.

Still alive - saw him the week before last at Shepley Festival.

Dave

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: mattkeen
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:06 AM

Anon is great
CupofTeas list for those where we know the author is a great place to start
Songwriters who have multiple works written in my lifetime that I believe will live on "in the tradition:"
Woody Guthrie
Pete Seeger
Eric Bogle
Gordon Bok
Phil Ochs
Sidney Carter
Tom Paxton
Andy M. Stewart
Tommy Sands

Personally I also would add Chris Wood/Hugh Lupton and John Tams

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:24 AM

McColl/Seeger. Well written stories strong tunes a great variety. Some taken as traditional

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: olddude
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:31 AM

ANONYMOUS
OK then how did you hear it, did it come in a dream or did you hear someone play it? if so how then do you know it is the way it was originally written by anonymous? MY point, we all know folk songs go generation to generation, but you had to have heard it did you not? If not then you don't know about the song. Point is someone wrote it down taught it to you or you heard it. Hence attribute it to the source that brought it to the for front. How many clancy songs are based in tradition ... a bunch - but do we not think clancy when we hear them, at least I do since they brought it to the attention of the folk community. Hence the anonymous is not an answer

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: olddude
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:38 AM

since we cannot go back in time, any traditional music handed down from generation to generation may be entirely different from what was originally written, people add to songs, enhance, when we see a written copy who know how many changes were made, hence we cannot say anonymous is the best writer. since someone wrote it down or played it for us to hear, they interpreted the music. Like the Clancy's or other hence I attribute the anonymous to those who brought it to our attention .. Like Anon

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: olddude
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:55 AM

No.20 - The Turtle Dove (Roud 422) - this popular lament is shown to have evolved from seventeenth century broadside ballads. Its evolution is traced across three centuries including Burns' adaptation and a nineteenth century burlesque.

I love this from the button's post

Hey Gargoyle see the term EVOLUTION!! maybe 100 writers involved but the last one got us what we hear today ... RIGHT?

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: olddude
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:57 AM

my assertion: There is no anonymous folk music hence who is the best writer

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:13 AM

I don't think you should beat yourself up over this olddude.

Old songs were written by somebody, I think we all agree. Some were passed on more or less unchanged and authorship is known for some and not others.

Some were past on and changed quite a lot and ended up in a number of versions? Who contributed most - generally we don't know.

When we don't know we say anonymous. I am no master of words but when we don't know and cannot find the name we say anonymous.

I feel sure a scholar will explain the origin of anonymous.

Anyway McColl/ Seeger

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:21 AM

A folk song can either be trad. or contemporary, and one of the best known authors would have to be Ewan MacColl.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:24 AM

I really am very sorry I joined in this

Cheers

Les, leaving

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:43 AM

So much of the songbag is filled with music from the oral tradition, from writers who are either anonymous or long dead, or both. Of the composers who are living, or who have been active during our lifetimes, I'd credit Tom Paxton, Peter Seeger, Bob Dylan, Travis Edmonson (of Bud & Travis), Gordon Lightfoot, Woodie Guthrie and even Townes Van Zandt. Bear in mind that I'm speaking from the Yank point of view.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:11 PM

Guest Shimrod..The only evidence I have to support my post is that in books on and of the period...whether factual or fiction such as those written by Thomas Hardy which reflect actual 'goings on' of the day.
A good example is 'Far From The Madding Crowd'
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: kendall
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:18 PM

My bad. How could I forget Stan Rogers, Woody Guthrie and Dave Goulder?

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:36 PM

Then theres Tom Bliss himself.....

Best though......?
Best ever........!


yeh....... probably Tom.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:09 PM

Trad. Arr and A.Non :-D

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:12 PM

The term 'folk' does not refer to a specific style of song, it refers to a process which the song, tune, tale, custom - has undergone. Even where the author of the song is known, unless it has gone through that process, it does not qualify as 'folk'.
John William Thoms coined the term in 1846 when he referred to 'folklore' and it has been in continuous use since.
As far as I'm concerned, until somebody comes up with a better one, that will remain the definition, no matter what misinterpretation, deliberate or otherwise is put on it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Carol
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:55 PM

Stan Rodgers was great 'modern' folk song writer

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:18 PM

And if you don't agree with this bloke Thoms back in 1846...... well you're a bit of a charlie, and we won't send you out to get the chips - you'd probably get the order wrong.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:47 PM

You might well be right WMD, but I wouldn't bring back a cabbage, even if it was on a lower shelf.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: olddude
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:11 PM

I never knew where the term came from thank you
that is interesting

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:14 PM

I'd like to add Bill Caddick to the lists people have already suggested

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: irishenglish
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:15 PM

Ralph McTell

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:27 PM

John Tams.
Sydney Carter.
Charles Causley. (a poet from Cornwall, but one of his poems, Innocent's Song, was turned into a very chilling song

and I'm with Mrs Scarecrow here, Bill Caddick is vastly underated in my opinion

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: kendall
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:36 PM

The man from Cornwall who wrote Carrying Nelson Home and The White Shepherd.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:49 PM

I'm not sure, but I think I read once that there was life before Mr. Zimmerman.

CC

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:00 PM

Other than that great, prolific "Anon" (or one of them, anyway, or some of them), I have to say Utah Phillips, who just died the other day.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:02 PM

The folk, presumably.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: olddude
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:43 PM

AAH WE ARE THE ROVING MINSTRELS
amazing forgot about Graeme Miles. Do you see why I started the thread that someone said this newbie was total BS. Well you nice folks just gave 100 different people that I have not thought about in years and several months of great music to discover and or re-discover.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:54 PM

I'll go with Dylan & Paxton - In My Humble Opinion

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Gerry.
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:25 PM

A few from Ireland I would suggest, Pete St. John,Christy Hennessy,and Pat Cooksey.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: van lingle
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:47 PM

A few who are adept at writing "folk type" songs might include Richard Thompson, Shane McGownan, Kate Rusby (yeah, that's right), Jim Malcolm and Marty Robbins.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: van lingle
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:55 PM

... Johnny Cash, in case he wasn't mentioned.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Effsee
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:57 PM

...and Harvey Andrews!

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:49 PM

Woody Guthrie has to rate pretty high. Bob Dylan certainly thought so.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: old salty
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:52 AM

Just been listening to Pete Morton's "six billion eccentrics" He's got to be up with the best . X

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: olddude
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:17 AM

I never hear Pete Morton's "six billion eccentrics" Thank you I am on it for sure, have to hear that one ASAP

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Betsy at work
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:18 AM

I don't know about the best EVER, but Brits need to thank the Yank whose songs help to sustain the folk song revival and give us some songs,which had choruses and were good to play.
Thankyou Tom Paxton.
Also thanks to Olddude for giving Mr Graeme Miles the mention, which, he so richly deserves.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: mattkeen
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:44 AM

Of course, Johnnie Cash and Shane MacGowan

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:31 AM

How can anyone know what the best ever anything is?

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: frogprince
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:33 PM

The answer to that is so simple, Mr. Happy! Whatever is my very favoritest, that's the best ever. : )

Even my "short list" of the best keeps getting longer and longer. Has anyone mentioned John Prine yet?

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:26 PM

Mr 'Happy' said, "How can anyone know what the best ever anything is?"

Well, it is fun to speculate isn't it? The operative word being fun:-)

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: radriano
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:39 PM

Aw, for Pete's sake, not another "best of" thread!

Subject: RE: 'Best' Folk Song writers ever
From: peregrina
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:48 PM

Another angle on 'best' would be to ask: whose songs are now widely sung and thought to be anon./trad. even though the attribution is still known?
In that category, and for political folk songs, how about: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night (by Alfred Hayes, but I didn't know that) and Ah Cud Hew, also Pound a Week Rise (by Ed Pickford). --all have a kind of spare inevitability and remarkable visual vividness.

Then there's another 'best' category--assimilating and blending into the tradition, and adding to it, both by writing entirely new songs and by recycling old words and tunes.
There: AP Carter, Woody Guthrie and Dylan--all steeped in trad.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:44 PM

It depends on the song. Some of the best have written some of the worst in addition to the best. It's a question that can't be answered.

Frank

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: trevek
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:55 PM

I agree with the earlier post about "folk" being a process.

I imagine many of the tunes we now refer to as "folk" would not be classed so at the time, even if the term had existed.

If "folk" is supposed to be anon then we might ask whether Burns was writing in "folk-style" or was he simply doing what others had done for years before, putting his own words to old tunes?

Just because we know he wrote these versions, does it make it less "folk"? Indeed, my copies of several Scottish songbooks list a number of songs as "trad", when they are noted Burns songs.

Elias Lonnrot, the writer of the Kalevala, was criticised for changing his collected material (although he was open about what he had changed and what the original text was). However, as he had travelled and collected the songs from rune-singers, and he had learned many of them himself, he considered himself a singer in the same tradition and vein as those he collected from, indeed as good as some of them. His changes were simply those of a rune-singer making the material his own.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: olddude
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:43 PM

John Prine - amazing is the word that is that comes to mind for me. Don't know how I could have forgotten about him ...Thank you, time to re-discover the music again

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: old salty
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:25 AM

olddude, oh yes,john prine i forgot too! Did you get to hear the pete morton number?
                                    salty X

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: The Doctor
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:01 AM

Kendall, the man from Cornwall is Mike O'Connor, and both songs are on 'Oceans in the Sky', by M W-R, along with another of his, 'The Last Song' and a lot of other newly-composed 'folksongs'.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:08 AM

a lot of the above...and Keith Marsden

geoff t

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:17 AM

Ever = Eternity??

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:21 AM

Has anyone mentioned Graeme Miles yet? His songs have a great sense of commonality about them, largely via the wonderful singing of Teesider Robin Dale who has introduced many of them, unaccompanied, into a singaround setting where they become as natural as Thousands or More. I was a session in Lancashire recently & a chap sang El Dorado and it felt like coming home.

Sea Coal is my favourite though - I sing it myself because it brings me back to the old sea-coaling days up in Northumberland & contains the immortal line and if we must go hungry we needn't go cold, which you either get or you don't.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Mick Woods
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:45 AM

I can't see how you can include Anon or trad, as these are not songwriters but attributes applied to certain songs where the original writer is unknown and, in any case one writer didn't write all of these!

I don't like using "Best" as it is only an opinion and can't be measured. You could however ask about most prolific or successful in the folk music genre (if there is such a thing) I would think about that the songs that I hear again and again at folk clubs not including traditional and the first three most prolific that spring to mind are Bob Dylan, Eric Bogle and Ewan McColl

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: trevek
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:08 AM

Errrm, Mick... I think everyone knows that really. I don't think many people think Trad's surname was Itional or that Anon's was Ymous.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:11 AM

40 oatcake years ago the songs of Dylan and Paxton resonated with me - and they still do.
For quality and quantity these two top the list in my view.

Subject: Lyr Add: LOVE AND DEATH (Ron Baxter)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:17 AM

And another - Ron Baxter. At least one of his songs is in the DigiTrad (Paddy Doyle) and some others on Permathread: Merchant Navy Songs.

Not all of his songs are about the sea though. One of my favourites is Love and Death, written, I think, with the tune of Searching for Lambs in mind.

Now love and death in a tavern met, and loudly they called for wine;
and as they drank they each let fall their quivers to the ground.
Then in their cups fell to argument - which one the mightiest be?
Death claimed that crown, "For all bow down, aye, all must come with me."

But Love replied, "That is not so - that diadem is mine;
though from this life you do take all through that portal you will find,
that love lasts through all eternity - true love it does not fade;
though split in twain it still remains and lives beyond the grave."

"Away, away you moonstruck loon! For when I to all appear,
love is lost with their last breath, there remains but grief and tears!"
But love, oh she smiled and shook her head, "Though your power I don't deny,
For 'tis man's fate that them you'll take - true love it never dies."

And the wine it flowed 'til drunkenly, they rose for the night had passed;
And each from the floor their quivers took and gathered in their shafts.
But each some of the other's took, so now 'tis understood,
The reason why oh young men die, and old men fall in love.

My setting of this is currently playing on my Myspace page.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 May 08 - 08:21 AM

PS - Ron Baxter has long been a renowned writer of lyrics in the traditional idiom and over the years his lyrics have been set & recorded by all manner of artists of the calibre of Alan Bell, Pint and Dale, Scolds Bridle and Ross Campbell to name but a few. His trick is to write the words to traditional melodies, but when Ron gives you a song (a real honour in these parts!) he doesn't disclose what melody it was he had in mind, leaving it up to the singer to either work it out for themselves - or else come up with a new one...

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Arne
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:46 PM

A timely question.

If one of the marks of a great songwriter is the number of their songs that others have chosen to record -- the measure of their accaim by their fellow artists -- you have to give a big nod to the recently departed Bruce "U. Utah" Phillips. I did a tally once, and he was right up there with Pete Seeger and Ewan McColl, with over 20 songs (IIRC) that I knew of (and could remember) that others have recorded.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:42 AM

Sometimes I get envious that so many of you know songs and writers that I don't know and in some cases have never heard of. I don't have enough time left to catch up.

But I definitely concur with Tommy Sands and John Prine and Utah Phillips and Bob Dylan and I would add Shel Silverstein and Jesse Winchester (love his stuff)and so many more.

Kendall, Gordon Bok is coming to Juneau in August and John Prine is booked for some time in September. I won't be missing their shows, for sure.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:13 AM

I have to say Jon Heslop, not just because he brings me cups of tea and looks after my house but for songs like 'Old Soldiers', 'Cheap Boats', Lifeboat prayer' and, of course 'Last Fisherman'.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Mick Woods
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:44 AM

Trevek "Errrm, Mick... I think everyone knows that really"

Are you some sort of telepath?

Read the whole thread.

If everybody else knows, as you claim that you think .. why have at least 6 people posted on this thread that they think that Trad or Anon are the best or most prolific songwriters and even the most prolific.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:55 AM

Wade Hemsworth, whose work has often been recorded and listed as Anon.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: mattkeen
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:22 AM

Wo betide us MickWoods for having a discussion or expressing an opinion about something that can't be measured

Bloody hell this is supposed to be a bit of fun.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:33 AM

Errm Mick, maybe they are having a joke? Perhaps even being... "ironic".

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:41 AM

By the way, Mick... I knew you were going to say that!

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,Bill the sound
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 06:59 PM

A difficult choice but I think Harvey Andrews

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: pitheris
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:34 PM

I'll throw Bill Robinson into the mix.
Smokey Robinson is one of the most prolific songwriters of the 20th century. I met him at a party once in the mid 1970s. Very talented musician. He's also a walking encyclopedia of folk songs.
Some of his songs may pass the test of time.

-Bob

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:57 PM

100,there isnt one.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Sue Allan
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:38 PM

Just a note following from Jim's post of 27 May:
Thom did coin the word 'folklore', but in this he was just following the German example. Philosopher and writer Johann Gottfried Herder actually coined the word 'folksong' in 1773, albeit in German as 'Volkslied'in an essay on 'Ossian and folksong'. Herder was one of many taken in by James Macpherson's publication of the alleged manuscripts of ancient Scots bard, Ossian- proclaimed as the Celtic Homer –in 1760. The poems turned out to be entirely of Macpherson's own making (although some were re-makings of old ballads). Nevertheless the fictional Ossian was so much part of the Romantic zeitgeist and ideas of the noble savage that he captured the imagination of poets, artists and musicians … Herder for one, who did actually go on to publish a book of folksongs he collected.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: the button
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 08:10 PM

Herder also added "Volk" to the German political lexicon. Which didn't end well, to say the least. ;-)

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Sue Allan
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 07:48 AM

Quite. And it sometimes seems we have to guard against the same sort of thing happening with 'folk', and be aware of potential hi-jacking by ultra right wing groups for their own ends.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 11:15 AM

There are many good folk song writers and some are also good singers. One of my favorites is Eric Bogle, already mentioned by others. Some of his songs have been sung and or recorded by so many people they have become if anything too popular, No mans land (Green fields of France or Willy McBride). Others like The band played waltzing matilda, leaving of Nancy and now I'm easy have such meaningful lyrics as to be amongst the best ever written. I have heard it said he has written in excess of 3,000 songs, although many are concerned with his home since 1969 Australia, I believe the Adelaide area, where he still appears as well as on his tours.
His web page www.ericbogle.net contains much more information.
I have never seen him live although I know a man who has and live is in his opinion exceptional. The CD i would recommend anyone purchasing if only one is required is a compilation "At this stage", look at the web page for other alternatives.
Hope many Mudcatters agree with me.
Dennis

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Silas
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM

Richard Thompson? Bill Caddick?

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 03:39 PM

Richard Shindell must be up there.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 05:34 PM

Mick Ryan deserves a mention

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:24 PM

In my opinion, it would not be Dylan. Many of his songs are sophomoric and generalized. Some of his love songs are nice, though. I don't like cults that are built up around artists.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

Including Bill "Smokey" Robinson among "folk-song writers" is a bit of a stretch. I absolutely love and admire Smokey and his work, but his (private) knowledge of folksongs does not turn his compositions into "folk music" under any plausible definition.

Of course, for many of us, any song written by a known contemporary artist is, ispo facto, not a "folk song." But most of us should be able to agree that some songwriters alive today have enough folk-music background for their work to be categorized as "folk," or at least, "folk-like."

One contemporary American writer who was once deeply involved in the folk idiom, and who deserves mention as a unique songwriting talent, is Lucinda Williams. She's not especially prolific, and is such an insane perfectionist that her album releases are few and far between, but whenever she does manage to put something out, there are plenty of articles praising her as the greatest of them all. Maybe, maybe not, but certainly as worthy of a mention here as anyone else listed so far.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:56 PM

olddude, it's certainly an interesting thread, though it might have benefited from a title bringing out the subjective nature of the term 'best'.

Having said that, I'll contribute my own subjective view. I can go along with many of those already mentioned, but I think Brian McNeill deserves to be named for turning out songs of a consistently high quality.

Also, hardly any women songwriters have been mentioned. If not 'the best', Judy Small must be rated as another writer of very good songs. Karine Polwart writes (among other things) a very particular kind of modern ballads. And has Malvina Reynolds been mentioned? I honestly can't remember.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: oldhippie
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 09:01 PM

Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, and Kate Wolf. Dylan just has the gift, many of Phil's songs are as applicable today as when they were written, and Kate for sheer beauty in lyrics.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:10 PM

I have not, for many years now, worried myself too much regarding the "authenticity" or "legitimacy" of those pieces popularly known as folk songs. I find that, like art or wine, each of us is moved by, enjoys or otherwise embraces a certain body of music which we choose to perform or hear others perform. I guess the term "folk genre" might suffice for much of the music I love.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Bee
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:00 PM

Joni Mitchell, anyone? Randy Newman? Some of theirs surely are or will be folk.

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:19 PM

What a muddle!

Should one by cruel? Should one be didactic? Should one shut up?

Carol-

It's Stan ROGERS, not Stan Rodgers.

There are NO folk song singers who are alive. We call the "live ones" singer-songwriters.

But I'm not feelin' very well this evening, so maybe tomorrow I'll be a folk song writer, although not the best one by far. If I were illiterate I evidently would not be a contender, and it's probably (with the help of Mudcat spell-check) self-evident that I am literate.

There are some good names mentioned above but I'm not sure that even if they have died they should be considered "Folk Song writers." And I'm not sure who would be the judges. Wouldn't they have to be dead too?

Charley Noble, the wine was great!

Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever
From: Jay777
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 09:17 AM

Cor blimey! That's a difficult one- there are/ were so many! I've restricted myself to those I've seen, who are still alive and performing, and came up with the international list of: Harvey Andrews, Christy Moore, and Tom Paxton.

They all cover a wide range of subjects, from serious social and political issues, to lighthearted/ funny songs, and have all stood the test of time.