BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?

Subject: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:20 PM

I imagine like many you are sick hearing stories about youth crime and the lack of respect in today's society. Well believe me it isn't nice when you become a victim as I did today.

I spent yesterday in the garden and today I went to the local Garden Centre and got all I needed. I take great pride in both my gardens, front and rear. This afternoon I was planting out and three kids all around 10 or 12 climbed up on the fence between me and the house behind me. They began by shouting things (references to my age). I told them to go away and behave. They came back ten minutes later and climbed right up onto the fence. One young boy threw a small soft drinks bottle at me which landed harmlessly on the grass about a foot away from me, it could so easily of hit me.

I went around to the next street to tell the residents of the house what had happened. A young Polish or European man opened the door, he was polite enough to me, I pointed through the rear window of his home to the young boy who threw the bottle. The father said he would not do such a thing. He was good enough to call the children in to hear what they had to say.A young girl with him about 10 (she was English)said that I was rude to them which I wasn't. The guy said, sorry I do not believe my son would do this. I told him I was ringing the police, the little girl spoke up "the police can't do anything on children".

I left without getting any resolve to the situation. An hour later I had four eggs thrown against the back wall of my home. I did ring the police and they said there was little they could do in a situation like this. He added It's best you ignore them because if they think their getting a response they usually keep it up.

I have lived near 40 years in this house without a cross word with anyone. I feel tonight I could move anywhere, but everywhere is the same I am told. Christ these children were around 10 or 12, what is happening out there and what seriously can we do to correct it.

Personally I think it's too late and we will never reverse the trend. Rights, rights and rights. What about my bloody rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: irishenglish
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:35 PM

Sorry to hear about that, but I would do either of two things-First follow the police's advice. It is hard to suck it up and forget it, but these are 10-12 year old kids, more than likely as the summer progresses they will move on to something else. Other thing is to do something harmless, but effective-like setting a sprinkler up right near that fence, so when you see them getting close-turn it on full blast! The broader scope of your post I have no easy answers for you. There is a lack of civility here, but also a degree of kids being kids, despite your own honest and decent neighborly attitude for 40 years. Short term in terms of what to do, do as the police said, then re-evaluate.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:40 PM

What a pain! Pity privileges are being forgotten, and only rights recalled...

Get the bottle fingerprinted? Know anyone who'd help with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:43 PM

They don't know what you've been doing for the last forty years, as they have a hard time envisioning anything earlier than breakfast. So the them you are just what you are right now, an "older generation" guy who doesn't understand them.

But old age and cunning can easily out wit them. You have video cameras, digital cameras, proximity sensors, IR sensors, and so on and sprinklers on your side.

You know how those electric eyes on garage doors work? If the line of sight is blocked, they interrupt a signal so the door can't close on them. You could hook one of those up so that if anyone came over that wall the sprinklers would go on full blast for thirty seconds.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:59 PM

Send 'em back up the chimneys and down the mines. If that doesn't work, take their iPods and mobile phones off them, that'll hurt the little gits.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:08 PM

Last summer, I had a similar instance. She's about 70 years old. Not a child. I had the camcorder set up for birds. I happened to record her dog shitting near the corner fence post and the ensuing conversation when I saked her if she was going to clean it up as she was walking away. She was vicious, obnoxious, profane, and refused to admit it was her's to clean up. Worse than any child could be.

A half hour later, a large young gentleman confronted me and, essentially, wanted me to give him a reason he shouldn't beat the crap out of me for being nasty to his mother. I showed him the video.

Video. That is your only defense these days. Saved that large young gentleman an ass whoopin. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Megan L
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:37 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:53 PM

Tonight there must have been about eight of them (same ones and a few older ones 14 or 15) walking up and down past the front window looking in, thankfully they didn't do anything, but it felt menacing never the less. I had a tin of grease in the garage, tonight I plastered it along the top of the fence with a paint brush.

I spoke to my son earlier on the phone and he said things are the same where he lives. I think if there was less talk on the television and in schools about human rights. Yes people need human rights, but call on them if your a victim, don't go telling young people that the law won't act against you if you get up to no good because your too young. I couldn't believe that little girl of about ten today, telling me the police won't do anything to children. Either she has had experience or her mother or father told informed her of it.

I heart goes out to teachers tonight, they must go through hell. Every time some young person commits a serious crime (three murdered in the UK over the Bank Holiday in stabbing incidents) it is always someone else's fault, broken homes, lack of education or dyslexia or some other condition. It is never bloody rotten badness on their part.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:19 PM

A lot of police forces have a system of neighbourhood policing - here's a link to a page about this in Essex, where I live. It might read like PR, but it can mean something more than that.

When there were some problems with kids around our way, neighbours got onto the local designated officer, and he was genuinely interested in trying to help, and able to do so in various ways, incluidng settimg up a meetinmg that let to a residents organisation, and supplying diary forms for people to record incidents to be sent to the neighbourhood officer.

If your local police haven't go into this kind of system, maybe it woudl be worth it trying to get them to do so.

I think getting into stuff like sprinklers and so forth is completely the wrong way to go about this - most ordinary kids would be likely to find that kind of response really exciting and enjoyable. And be honest, that would have been as true in any generation.

Victor's neighbour with the kids sounds as if he might well be a good father, but just a bit too trusting of his son's word, which isn't such a bad fault in itself. It'd be wrong to assume that he doesn't care what his kids get up to - and even good kids in good families can behave pretty badly sometimes. I know I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:37 PM

Well, there are two angle to this. While I do sympathize with your plight, Victor, this sort of retaliatory nonsense has been going on forever. It was going on when I was a kid.

Children sometimes get out of line and they harass old people (or other children) in order to feel a sense of power...something they are probably lacking in the presence of their dad or their older brother or the local bully who pushes them around. It can get out of hand.

Old grouches, on the other hand, have been the bane of ALL children for the last 1,000 years or more...and sometimes old grouches get way out of line too and they pester kids about things that really don't matter.

(I'm not calling you an "old grouch", Victor, so don't take that personally!)

It's just that some old people really hate youngsters and they are on duty overtime looking for something, anything, to complain about. This is very annoying when one is a child, I remember the situation well...and I was not in the habit of doing anything harmful or destructive to the neighborhood's old grouches, I assure you, but they were quite happy to make my life difficult whenever they could.

So what happens is this: A sort of undeclared war smoulders between the youngsters and the oldsters in a neighborhood, fueled by mutual paranoia and contempt.

Now, when you have had a confrontation with some children, they don't forget it...and they have a lot of time on their hands. If they are the aggressive type, they will plot various childish ways to get revenge on you. The throwing of the eggs at your wall was a typical retaliation.

It's just no use picking fights with kids that age. It spurs them on to further efforts, and they have a lot of time on their hands, as I said. They are looking for a challenge. If you give them one, they rise to the bait with great energy and enthusiasm and they can drive you right out of your mind in no time flat.

As the police said, it is best to ignore them, because if they think they are getting a response from you they are simply delighted, and it will drive them on to further efforts. The way to stop kids is to bore them. When they get bored, they forget about you and they go off to find a new challenge.

I detest bratty and aggressive, hellraising youngsters. I detest old grouches too. I have detested them about equally for my whole life, both when I was young, and now when I'm old. I fully understand what each one of them doesn't like about the other. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:13 PM

Thanks for that link McG, it's very interesting. Thanks Little Hawk too. Both great posts. I agree with everything you both said.

This was my family home, I lived aboard for a while and came home to roost many years ago. In all the years I lived in this house there was never a cross word with any family or their kids. The lads father seemed a nice very mild mannered guy and the boy stood in respect while he talked, but to dismiss me or my account of the events in front of the boy saying "My son would not do that" won't help the lad in life.

Yes I know what would of happened in my day, but times have changed, and not for the better I may add.

I think the influences be it television, computers or whatever, children are being robbed of their childhoods these days and a lot of parents focus on their own lives and personal interests and leave children to the devices of technology and media to do the rearing for them, two of these children today had mobiles with them, at around ten years of age !

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:28 PM

Yes, the TV and modern media have done a great deal to destroy family life. Children are being abandoned nowadays to be brought up by the broadcast media, and that's not a good situation at all, because all the broadcast media really exists for is to make money...and to create social conformity while the money is being made. George Orwell's 1984 is being accomplished through aggressive capitalism. Orwell would be surprised by that, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:57 PM

I can understand why a father might believe the word of his son over that of a stranger, especially if he knows (or thinks he knows) that his son generally tells the truth.

Imagine a situation where the accusation had been wrong and the son had been telling the truth - and the father took it for granted that his son was a liar. Think of the damage that would be likely to do to the boy and the family.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: meself
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:14 AM

Sorry - seems to me that the father is the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:55 AM

Hi Victor, believe me when I say that I have had A LOT of experience of the same kind of thing you are going through. My family and I put up with this kind of shit for about five years! We fell foul of the local youths round where we lived. I won't go into details it would take too long but we had eggs thrown at our house almost every evening, sometimes stones, fruit etc, youths hanging around being a fucking nuisance. The way we tackled it was to PESTER the police until they got so fed up they did something! I also contacted the council on a couple of occasions (two of the little buggers lived in council houses, eventually they were evicted along with their slapper of a mother!) I also got the local MP on the job. I'm afraid if it gets worse you're in for a long haul but, DON'T GIVE IN, we didn't and eventually things have got better. Round where we live they seem to have got rid of the scummy families.
The key is, PESTER,PESTER,PESTER! Do not be fobbed off with the apathetic "Oh we can't do anything they're only kids!" routine, the police are often just lazy bastards who want a quiet job like everyone else. I'm afraid if you started going around throwing bottles at children they'd soon find something to charge you with wouldn't they?
Well if that's the case it works both ways, you have every right to be in your own space without somebody elses brats giving you lip and making your life a misery!
I wish you well!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:31 AM

The father's assumption that Victor was lying, is to me the thing that is most upsetting. I know my Mother would have interrogated me in front of any accuser in order to arrive at the truth.

G

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:05 AM

Me too Giok. My parents were always willing to assume that an adult was more likely to be telling the truth than a guilty child, and my dad would never have taken my side until I'd been questioned very closely indeed and I had managed to convince him I was being truthful. And, like many parents in those days, he had an unerring instinct for lie-detection. :-)

And it did my relationship with my father no harm whatsoever - in fact the reverse, it demonstrated to me what a fair-minded, just and strong man he was.

The real problem is doting, obsessive, blinkered parents who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the faintest possibility of any wrongdoing by their Perfect Little Angel (who generally turns out to be a Perfect Little Bastard).

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:12 AM

Agreed, that is the type of thing that teachers are faced with. Parents here are always ready to confront teachers if they chastise children.

The boys father asked him if it was him threw the bottle in front of me. He replied, no. The father looked at me and said, it wasn't him.

My old man would have listened to the adult and then questioned me in front of him, he would have then made his judgement. I would not have lied to my father, I knew better !

Has anyone any ideas how to remove egg from red brick ? Detergent is useless as is soap salt.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:02 PM

I would suggest a stiff wire brush and some elbow grease, Victor, plus water to wash off the bits afterward. That will get it off eventually.

"the police are often just lazy bastards who want a quiet job like everyone else"

LOL! Ain't that the truth. They really don't want to be bothered trying to deal with unruly kids, and I can hardly blame them...still it is their job, isn't it? The squeaky wheel does get the grease, so you may have to just keep bugging them long enough, as the Guest above suggested.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:25 PM

They really don't want to be bothered trying to deal with unruly kids

Our bloke was, in line with the policy that nipping trouble in the bud is better than waiting till it's developed into something serious pays dividends.

We should be careful about generalising from our own expeience, bad or good.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:56 PM

Has anybody tried the Hi, guys, whatcha doin today? Want to help me plant? If so, I could let you pick some of the flowers, veggies, whatever...approach?

Our son was caught red handed smashing a neighbors nearly ripe watermelons. She called me, (her son was involved too) and together we made the boys eat as much (and then some) of the smashed melons as they could hold, then they had to clean up the mess.

The NEXT year, she invited both of them to help her plant the melons with the promise they could each have one for their very own to do with as they liked...smash, eat, whatever. Guess what? No more vandalizing ALL the melons. What was funny was that BOTH boys did choose to Smash their melons, and eat what they wanted then clean up the mess.

I guess it's just Parental Responsibility that in many ways has gone down the drain. That and the belief, as Giok says, that MY child can do no wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:32 PM

Yeah, kids are usually a bit suspicious of adults they don't know too well...and vice versa. So you can either break the ice and turn that suspicion to a feeling of ease and familiarity....in which case things generally go fine from that point on...or you can act suspicious, in which case their hackles go up, yours go up, and things rapidly deteriorate from that point on.

Getting off on the wrong foot with kids, neighbours, or with anyone else can be a very, very hard thing to turn around and make positive afterward.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:18 PM

Good points folks, but in today's society if an old pensioner like myself invited three kids under 12 into my home or garden I would be asking for trouble. No doubt the police would call down if that was the case !

Caustic Soda in warm water removes egg from the brickwork if any of you need a "Tip for the day".

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:51 PM

Point taken, Victor. ;-)

You have to deal with each situation in life according to its own unique nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: MarkS
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:06 PM

Don't exactly know how the system works in England, but do you have the recourse to hire a lawyer and go after the parents in a civil suit? Go after the parents pocketbooks a few times and the word will spread that you are to be better left alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:07 PM

Lawyers may do well out of neighbours going to court. Nobody else does.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Grab
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:15 AM

MarkS, a civil suit for *what* precisely? That requires there to be damages. What damages can Victor chalk up - the cost of a couple of teaspoons of caustic soda?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 May 08 - 05:54 AM

It helps to find out the kids' names - then, when you pester the police, always give them their names.

I fell foul of a group of local youths a few years ago. One day I caught them beating up a smaller boy. When they saw me they shouted the usual abuse and then ran off leaving the little, snivelling wretch on the ground. I asked the said wretch if he was OK and then asked who him, "who was the older boy who was thumping you?" He said, "it's me bruvver!". He then gave me the lad's name and address.

After that I always gave that name and address to the police. It turned out that the lad's father was a police sergeant and the harrassment abruptly stopped!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 May 08 - 12:58 PM

I have been accused on this Site of acting like that rag "newspaper" The Sun for writing much the same as all of the above.
Your country is not going but gone, the streets taken over by teenage thugs, and the same applies here in Ireland, and make no mistake the yobs are winning, the above contributions to this Thread dosen`t express much hope, and now that I have added to the Thread, look out for the Union Jack wavers brandishing their knives.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:15 PM

The Citizens' Advice Bureau may come up with suggestions as to the best way forward.

I think the father should at least have asked his son "Why has this gentleman come round to complain if it wasn't you?" or something similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:27 PM

Another good reason for living in the country, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 May 08 - 08:11 AM

There is no one solution.

But an old colleage of mine used to say "Honest people have nothing to fear from harsh laws"

The essence with youth has always been to strike-out and make their mark in their way. I see a lot of yoof at Folk Festivals who are being themselves and in a very creditable way. But you can't offer the chance of musical abilities to all, some instead want fame/money and want it now. By and large those are not folkies.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Grab
Date: 30 May 08 - 09:08 AM

http://chnm.gmu.edu/jsh/abstracts.php?volume=32&issue=2

I quote:-

"This article examines the "scuttling" gangs of late Victorian Manchester and Salford, drawing upon a sample of 250 gang-related crimes of violence reported in the local press between 1870 and 1900. Over 90 per cent of those charged in these cases were working-class males aged between fourteen and nineteen. Affrays between rival neighbourhood-based gangs, which were characterized by the widespread use of knives, were not confined to the most notorious "slum" districts but spanned the working-class districts of the Manchester conurbation. Gang conflicts do not appear to have been structured to any sign)ficant extent by either short-term economic trends or ethnic tensions. Gang violence was rooted in working-class codes of toughness and manliness and allowed young men on the brink of adulthood to act out the established role of the "hard" man and thus to acquire considerable kudos and peer-group recognition."

Plus ca change...

Two major factors here. First thing is that kids are incapable of considering consequences for other people. That's physically incapable - the part of their mental setup which lets them put themselves in someone else's shoes is literally not present. The other part is that peer pressure is more central to kids' experiences than any adult instructions. Kids have always behaved badly, and it will continue to happen for as long as human physical development works the way it does.

This doesn't excuse their father's attitude though. Kids can't learn that there's consequences to their actions for other people unless they're forced to examine those actions.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:48 PM

It might be wise to keep a diary, with photos or video if you can provide them as backup, and deliver a copy of it to the local police should the harrasment continue. Get a receipt. Even if they don't do anything at the time it shows there is a problem.

Then it things ever do come to a head you have evidence of ongoing problems - which the police should have been aware of.

I know of at least two people who were found guilty of crimes as video surveilence cameras in a neighbours house showed them arriving and leaving at times which contradicted an alibi given for a fairly serious crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Big Phil
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:50 PM

Lack of parental discipline is the root cause of these feral youths causing havoc. Less soft talk and more hard slipper on the arse will help effect a cure, it may take time, but it will work.

Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:33 AM

Details released yesterday show fatal stabbings in England and Wales have risen to their highest level in three decades.

Police figures obtained under the Freedom of Information Act show 277 stabbing deaths in 2007-8, the highest since records began in 1977.

They showed stabbing murders in London rose by a quarter, up from 68 in 2006-7 to 86 last year.

In both West Yorkshire and Northumbria fatal stabbings rose from 10 to 15 and in Lancashire deaths more than trebled from four in 2006-7 to 13 last year, according to the statistics.

It is understood the figures may change before their official release in the new year if the police or the courts decide some homicides should be reclassified.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:27 AM

Two or three thoughts here:

1) It strikes me forcibly that this is a metaphor for relations between two neighboring countries. Punitive retaliatory actions don't seem to work, do they, whether it is Israel and Palestine or India and Pakistan or - you get the idea.

2) My reaction is the same as Sorcha's. An enemy made into a friend benefits both. The more mature of the two should be able to figure out ways to do it. Diplomacy should trump violence.

3) I am sure most of us have had interactions of the sort. I know that I have. In fact, the worst of the experiences was with a retired state official. At the time I was caretaker of a state-owned house museum with large yards.

Every day in his constitutional this elderly neighbor walked briskly past my home 20 times - he was counting - trailed by his dog.

Every day the dog did her business in my yard and the neighbor never picked it up even though I had placed a receptacle complete with bags at the side of the house. Every day I had to pick it up myself.

In Juneau, the ordinance is clear, and one day I asked the man if he would please pick it up. He refused. I reminded him that it is the law. He harrumphed.   

Several days of this ensued. I even walked alongside him at one point insisting that it was his civic duty. He called me a "Dog Nazi". I started chasing his dog out of my yard as soon as she set foot in it. She still pooped in it when she could.

Eventually the humor of it struck me and I decided that I was accomplishing nothing but upsetting myself and I started picking it up without comment.

Time passed and one day as I was walking my dog past his house (believe me, it was a temptation to allow my dog to do the same business on his property!) the man was just getting out of his car and I complimented him on the article he had written in the local paper concerning early Juneau history.

He responded pleasantly- and we have had cordial relations ever since. He put his dog on a lead.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:25 PM

Yes, but does he now clean up after his dog?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:36 PM

First thing is that kids are incapable of considering consequences for other people. That's physically incapable - the part of their mental setup which lets them put themselves in someone else's shoes is literally not present. The other part is that peer pressure is more central to kids' experiences than any adult instructions. Kids have always behaved badly, and it will continue to happen for as long as human physical development works the way it does.

What a load of supreme horseshit. I can tell you that I could and did put myself in other people's shoes as early as 6 years old. I quite often thought about the consequences of actions before acting. Same with my daughters (both of whom had no problems understanding another's suffering, standing up against the bully or a mob in defense of another person). And by the time I was about 9 or 10 peer pressure was a thing of the past for me. But then I always felt like old old woman in ill fitting clothes from very early age.

Parents today are afraid of children. And they know it, can smell the fear and that makes the kids afraid. They act out as a result of the fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: pdq
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:39 PM

Tales of deleterious dog poop in Juneau, Alaska, on a thread about stabbing deaths in England.

Ah, Mudcat. Priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 02:43 PM

I am with the make an enemy a friend force. Sorry that Victor had this trouble.

Probably would have been much better if he had (at the very first incidence) walked over to the fence smiling as though he had not heard what the kids said. Introduced himself, fibbed about a hearing difficulty, asked some easy questions like "what school do you go to" and "have you been living here long". Made comments about it being good to see new faces around. Just being kind and friendly in the face of aggression (especially in young ones) often defuses the situation.

I know - all difficult to do in the heat of the moment. Still not too late to turn it around though. Invite some old and new neighbours (including Polish family) around for drinks in back garden. If the offer is accepted, be prepared to ask getting to know you type questions and to regale with stories about the neighborhood and local schools. Rebuild your community. One day one of those kids (as adult) may have the same problem and will know how to deal with it because it was modelled for him/her.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:15 PM

Well as I have said before, it would help if people in general, and kids in particular were held to account for their action.
Whatever they do they seem to have excuses made for their behaviour, there are no means of sanctioning their antics.
The stock answer if you threaten with the law is, 'the police won't do anything, they can't touch us'. Unfortunately it appears that they are correct too.
If you take it up with the parent[s], you are likely to get more abuse, their poor little darling wouldn't do such a thing!!
Most parents now appear afraid of their children, and indulge them in order to keep the peace.
Teachers can't discipline them either. It's no wonder the streets are full of feral kids.
Time was when kids like these were a small minority, now it's the well behaved ones who are in the minority.
Sometimes I think we need another world war, to teach them discipline, and bring the population of the world down to a more sensible size.
Fortunately it's only a fleeting thought ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:37 PM

Fear is not only a problem for the adults. Children need limits and boundaries.

There was a study (video taped) of a playground in a busy urban area. There were fences around the the playground and the children played all over the yard up to where the fence protected them from the surrounding traffic.

When the fences were taken down the children all clustered to the centre of the yard. That was a recordable effect - fear of no boundaries.

Kids are not stupid. They may not be able to verbalise the fear, but will react to it and externalise it. If children grow up in an environment of no fences (adults who discipline them and who say no them), they grow up with fear.

Fear is the driving force behind bullying and acting out behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:51 PM

I think to make that test valid, the reverse should also be tried.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:59 PM

IMHO all people, whether adult or child, should be held accountable for their words and actions.... every person on Gods earth is entitled to respect and privacy... but both these things are being abused by adults and children... what will anyone do about it..????? Nothing!!!!! WHY???? because we all have to be careful about who we upset or annoy as they might come round and beat us up or shoot us dead!!!!!! What the hell is this world coming to??....

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 05:48 PM

Well... the get to know them rout, as Sorcha proposes works, but sometimes you have to also take the defensive approach. I tend to get along well in the neighborhood, here in NYC, I often bring the homeless kids in the park, hot coffee on cold mornings, take photos for them for their facebook pages, etc. However, we also had some young people squatting in our home and selling drugs. The police did not help at first, in fact, were on the verge of arresting my 88 year old mother for an "illegal eviction." After a year of litigation, it turns out the police were wrong. However, in order to get the police to stop the drug dealing from our house, I set up a web cam which focused on the hallway. Web cams work. I don't approve of their use by the government in public, as happens all over England, but one's home is another thing. Set one up focused on your yard at once. Also, I made copies of video for the local city counsel member. The police became a partner at once after that - and the other tenants, who these young thugs had been terrorizing, became very polite until the day the marshal came to evict them.
But, do see if there is some way to be a welcoming neighbor, but also protect your property.
Good luck
Lorcan

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:27 PM

pdq, sorry about your problems with simile and projection. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:41 PM

Well said, Virginia. I fear that Victor and John McKenzie have read rather too much of the Daily Mail and the Daily Express of late, and have forgotten how to talk to young people.
If it's any consolation, the same sentiments were being expressed in the mid-Eighteenth Century, with fears that the coming generation was feral and that civilisation was going to hell in a hand-cart.
Of course, back then they were right...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:24 PM

"...the same sentiments were being expressed in the mid-Eighteenth Century, with fears that the coming generation was feral and that civilisation was going to hell in a hand-cart."

In the years preceding the French Revolution...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:25 AM

lack of respect is not a crime but if you continue to challenge them they will feel more empowered to escalate with a new sense of power over adults. Heaping praise of any kind on them even in response to vile comments or acts will put almost anyone off their game.

Often one has to wait 4 or five years for them to move on to greener pastures.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 05:34 AM

Yes let's cuddle these young thugs, why don't older people share their pension with them ? maybe buy them a few lagers to keep them from breaking their windows.

A few here need to get real. These young thugs need locked up and judges and police need to grow balls.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 05:54 AM

Indeed, why not patronise them and talk down to them, call them 'More like a sister/brother, than your child'
Last thing a sensible child wants, is to be tarred with the same brush as their parent. So much of the kicking over the traces, is done to show that they are different from the older generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 05:54 AM

Hows it going with kids next door though, Victor?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:19 AM

"I fear that Victor and John McKenzie have read rather too much of the Daily Mail and the Daily Express of late, and have forgotten how to talk to young people."

Gervase, I read neither paper, nor would I, I like to be informed by my newspaper, and not indoctrinated.
As for talking to young people, surely that is the parent's responsibility not mine?
In fact it may be one of the root causes of their undisciplined behaviour!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:33 AM

I know one guy in my own family who lives on rough little housing estate filled with feral kids running about. And yes they can be little monsters. But a bit of human interaction goes a long way. He goes out and kicks a ball about with them, and also tears a strip off them when they act up. They all look up to him. But he never talks down to them. He also doesn't fear them. And I think that's where he gains their respect.

He is to be fair one of the best people I've seen with kids, and especially the kind of kids we seem to be describing here. But grew up himself in a family full of wild young boys. Gladly for them, they had lots of feilds and rivers and woods to play in.

I think kids are like puppies, so full of energy. But if someone doesn't show them something useful to do with it, it becomes destructive.

Children aren't anything other than what they've always been. But where are they supposed to go to be kids? 'No Ball Games' on the green, 'No Scateboards' in the precinct, 'No Trespassing' down the local woods. No Dirt Biking... No anything anywhere. So they end up smoking fags and smashing up the bus stop instead.

IMO communities have a responsibility to provide free, stimultating, constructive outlets for their young people. And a little appropriate investment, could go a long way to preventing far more serious and longer-term social problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:59 AM

No one person can solve the problem, nor can one community or one idea. It's too big and too complex. Like so much else, it will require a rethinking of many areas and a commitment by parent and society as a whole to solve the puzzle.

Sorry, but there are no magic bullets, no single one-shot-cures-all solutions to any of our problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:35 AM

I used to think that if a child was raised in a secure home and got a decent education, loving support and encouragement, reasonable discipline, etc, that all would be well.

Then a neighbor's sixteen year old son murdered a gay man - tortured and disfigured him, took out his eyes with a claw hammer.

This boy's parents are good, decent people, His siblings are good decent people. What the hell happened? Drugs? Maybe. But he was an angry young man - frightened me when I saw him. He had been top student in his high school - one of the two top schools in the city.

Everything should have been right. It wasn't. And even when caught, he was arrogantly bragging about how he was going to get away with it because of some legal technicalities.

His parents' lives have been ruined. Gay Rights activists picket their home regularly. "The parents must be to blame" is a neighborhood theme. I don't think so.

I know too many people with multiple children who live normal, healthy lives while a brother or sister ends up in jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:31 AM

Lock up 10 year olds? Come on!! Is that really where you want to see your tax money going?

No one here has said they should be talked down to, coddled or treated like a friend or sibling.

They need discipline and for parents and other adults to just say no to them. But if they have not had this from babyhood they do not know how to cope with it, especially from a stranger.

Approaching with friendly interchange difuses the initial aggression, takes the fear factor (yours and theirs) out of the equation and opens a door to modelling and learning appropriate behaviour. Once the trust is established then the instruction can begin.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:50 AM

A Case History.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: pdq
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:50 AM

In the United States, crime, especially by young people, can be correlated to the population density and type of housing that people live in.

If you want to live in a low crime area, you want to look for a suburban housing developement with 3 bedroom/2bath detached houses on (approx) 1/4 acres lots.

Apartment buildings with no place to play and areas of high population density breed hatred, frustration and violence. Perhaps this is a problem with the "estate" concept in England?

Also, families who own their own houses are less prone to producing violent kids, but I don't think that is as important as the type of housing or the population density.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:25 AM

David, The family who seemed to cause most of the trouble moved a few months back. I don't know the reason but there was a police raid on their house a few weeks prior. They allowed their kids to run riot as they sat in public houses all day by the look of them as they came home of an evening. The gang that hung around their home seem to have gone their own ways.

Garvase, please don't judge me, you don't know the first thing about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:24 PM

250 gang-related crimes of violence reported in the local press between 1870 and 1900

250 in 30 years? Even allowing for differing laws, mass reportage and the immediacy of the media, 250 these days would be counted in months. I think if it was a concern then, it is a CONCERN now.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:16 PM

Victor, I'm glad to hear that you are rid of those people. I also hope that the police raid leads to an improvement, in one form or another, in the lot of those children.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:24 PM

An interesting example in the BBC news tonight. A couple took their baby son on a seven-hour drinking session.

Mark and Petra Tyler, 46 and 24, of Reindeer Street, Mansfield, were arrested in September after being refused entry to a pub.

A landlord alerted CCTV operators who then called police when they saw the boy's buggy tipping from side to side.

The child was described by police as hungry and had a filthy bottle filled with sour milk in his pushchair.

The father of the child came out of the court and put his two fingers up at waiting reporters and shouted "fuck you all".

And we wonder where children get their examples from.

They got a slap on the wrist for it. I would have taken the child off them and placed it in care and stuck them two in jail.

Neither work for a living which is why they can aford to drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:45 PM

Glad things worked out, Victor--sorry that violent crime is on the rise there, as well. PDQ is correct in his observations on incidence of crime, but one thing that he left out is the idea of transience.

Even poor and crowded neighborhoods may have low crime rates, particularly when they have a fairly stable population--where people have known each other for a long time, and have a lot of social interaction. However, when people are alway moving in and out, and when there are increasing numbers of "strangers" and decreasing numbers of "neighbors", crime generally begins to increase.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:48 PM

It struck me that it might be useful to place the responsibility on the fathers shoulders in the following way.

Each time an incident occurs, write a letter to the father explaining what has happened - something like "I'm sorry to have to inform you that your son threw a bottle at me today ..." etc

Each time you do this, you keep a copy of the letter.

Each time you do this you inform the police and inform them that you have written to the father so HE is aware what is going on.

You ignore the idea that "the police can't do anything".

The police will do something in the end if you continue to report what is going on.

When you report to the police, you write a letter and keep a copy.

Cumulative pressure on the police will force them to rake responsibility in the end, especially if you start complaining and making an embarassing but very civil and patient fuss.

That means making a fuss and not giving in - ever - but always being civil so they cannot complain.

Don't give up!!!

Do everything by the written medium and keep copies of everything.

At some point you will be able to complain to the police as your pile of letters gets higher and they and the father will have to start wising up.

Find out about thhe policies and procedures that govern police responsibilities and you will find aa way to force the police to help you.

That IS what they are there for and the father is responsible for the actions of the child.

Be informed - be proactive!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:26 PM

Well if a child is under the age of criminal responsibility, we could always hold the parent responsible for his/her actions.
In a court of law if necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:12 PM

But what do you do when 'The Family' move in on you ? Vandalism of property to keep a complainer from carrying on is the least of the possibilties . Violence against the person is quite common , when the Father thinks someone is 'Having a Go' at his brat , even if that someone is a Teacher at Said Brat's school !

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 12:32 PM

1. Start instilling the idea that children are NOT and NEVER HAVE BEEN the sweet, kind, cute little darlings we'd like them to be.

2. Start instilling the idea that neither are they a bunch of nasty, brutal thugs and need not grow up so.

3. Start instilling the idea that PARENTS are, by and large, responsible for their children's actions and WILL suffer the consequences thereof. Perhaps we should bring back the idea of shame.

I very much believe in the concept of the Bad Seed -- the kid from a good, solid, family who for whatever reason machine guns his school or takes an ax to his grandparents. As long as the parents do their very best....

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 12:42 PM

EDEN, Md. (AP) -- Police say two Maryland teens lit a boy's hair on fire and recorded the attack on a camera phone.

The Wicomico County Sheriff's Office says the victim was sleeping early Sunday at a home in Eden in eastern Maryland when 17-year-old Forrest Wilson poured lighter fluid on his hair and set it ablaze. The victim put out the fire, then discovered a 14-year-old boy was recording the video.

Investigators say the video showed Wilson light the 16-year-old victim's hair on fire. Police did not know a motive and witheld the victim's name. The victim, whose hair was singed, notified his parents later that day.

Wilson and the 14-year-old are charged with assault and other charges - Wilson as an adult, and the younger teen as a juvenile.

Wilson is being held on several felony charges and US $100,000 bail; the younger kid is in juvenile detention.

The problem is not only the UK's. It's worldwide.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:29 AM

An Obituary printed in the London Times........ Interesting and sadly rather true.
Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as: Knowing when to come in out of the rain; why the early bird gets the worm; Life isn't always fair; and maybe it was my fault.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).
His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.
Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.
It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.
Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.
Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.
Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realise that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.
Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents Truth and Trust, by his wife Discretion his daughter, Responsibility, and his son Reason.
He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;
I Know My Rights.
I Want It Now.
Someone Else Is To Blame.
I'm A Victim.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realised he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:31 AM

His given name was "Good" -- "Common" was a nickname. Good Sense was never Common.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:40 AM

We are living in an age in which you can't open your bloody mouth without offending someone because of their race or whatever. I have no time for these racist nutters I would like to add, but if someone does something wrong, they use it like a tool against you.

I saw an example in the waiting room of my doctors recently. The young lady at the desk was doing her best, one gentleman complained he was waiting 30 minutes and tried to make out she was doing it because of his colour.

Kids see this and find it works. Adults should be able to challenge young people acting in an anti-social way without fear of prosecution.

We need to re-write the rules to give officers more discretion when dealing with people who intervene.

People were being forced to "bleat" to police but said he was not promoting vigilantism.

At the moment, police across the UK advise people not to put themselves at risk if they come across young people acting in an anti-social way or committing a crime.


While I am not defending people who used excessive force or vigilantism, we should stop people feeling that they could not intervene in their own neighbourhoods to prevent bad behaviour.

        
The public have come round to seeing the police as more likely to bite them than do something about the problems in the community

If somebody comes in to a police station and makes an allegation clearly of the most trivial character they nevertheless have to go through a process of dealing with it which may involve going round and confronting the person against whom the trivial allegation has been made.

People have become willing "to go running off to the police to bleat about the most minor matters" because they feel powerless to do anything themselves.


If the police were allowed to show discretion, it would restore people's confidence in dealing with low-level crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 12:10 PM

In Alaska, we have one form of control against criminal behavior that is fascinating to me. It doesn't always work, I know, (because I know of several cases in Juneau where an elderly Tlingit person was murdered by young Tlingits) but the Native Alaskan community teaches itself the rule of respecting its elders.

It works a treat, as you might say. I have invoked it in a situation where a young Native man was drunk and belligerent against a white female (me). All I said was something like 'I have always admired the Native attitude toward respecting one's elders.'

The man apologized immediately, and to the best of his intoxicated ability proceeded into conversation with me.

Another time I joined some young people at a bus stop. One girl, maybe 14 years old, started kicking the plexiglas siding on the shelter. Without stopping to think twice, I said, sharply: Knock it off!

She did so immediately and none of the four or five youngsters with her challenged me. Indeed, I went on to make some innocuous comment about weather or whatever and they responded.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 10:01 AM

Youth at Risk programs are an important component of park and police programs in urban areas, but they are usually the first to be cut when funding gets tight. Yet if they would increase the funding at times like that, crime would go down.

The easiest fix for your garden and the kids bothering you is to do what local gas stations and fast food places do around here (Texas). Play classical music. Loud. Or some form of music they are repulsed by. They'll go away. If the neighbors complain about your noise you'll be able to explain about your non-violent way of repelling their children.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:35 PM

My wife worked a long time in Montessori schools and she maintains that kids are never too young to learn about consequences for their actions - the idea being to help them stop and think before doing something. Even very very young kids can have this concept imbued. She used to give the example of the 3 year old boy who didn't want to do music class when the other kids were doing it. No problem, he could go and play in the games room while the music class was on. Halfway through he decided he wanted to do the music class after all. He was told that the music class had already started, he couldn't go in now because the teacher had already explained the lesson and the kids were on to the practicing part and it wouldn't be fair to ask the teacher to start all over again for his benefit while everyone else had to wait patiently (in words a 3-year old would get).

Well he cried and cried but there was no changing the situation, he had to accept he had had the chance to do the music lesson and would have again but this time it was too late. Next time round he gave far more thought to whether or not he wished to skip the lesson and was far readier to accept it as natural when he wasn't allowed to interrupt it halfway through.

This was an important lesson to learn young that would stand to him in later life as he faced bigger decisions. It seems to me that people tolerate far too much s*** off kids on the basis that "ah, they're too young to understand" and wait until they're characters are already formed before trying to teach them basic rules for life. No one is too young to start learning respect for others and children often have a better sense of fairness and justice than adults, if adults would just learn to 'exploit' that (by which I mean appeal to kids sense of fairness in order to discipline them)

There's no one single cause or solution but I believe part of the problem is the non-hegemonic realtivistic society we've created. By which I mean we adults can't agree on the 'rules' even among ourselves because our societies have grown too large, complex and individualistic and grown-ups all want to be free to 'do their own thing' This freedom comes at the cost of sending a very mixed message out to the younger generation who realize the rules are often arbitrary. Adults don't back each other up and reinforce each other's authority as they used to - instead they squabble among themselves. Society presents a less hegemonic face to kids and so kids learn the rules are full of loopholes to be exploited. If everyone gives you a ticking off for the same thing, one tends to back down and realize one is out of step with one's society. Being social animals, we operate also on feedback from the society in which we live.

Another problem is the centralisation of power in the nanny state. It takes more authority from the hands of parents and instead redistributes it to dozens of state-agencies. This only serves to undermine parental authority in the eyes of kids even further. They realize quickly enough (as apparently did the 10 year old girl above) that beyond the strata of authority represented by their parents and adults, there was another strata represented by the state and its organs, that as often as not, stymied parental authority or could be exploited against it. One cannot have responsibility without authority. Some of the worst social failures of societies were those where the state tried to aggressively supplant and undermine the parents' authority - such as China during the 'cultural revolution' and Khmer Rouge Cambodia.

Let me quickly add that I am no grouch - I'm very fond of kids though I really dislike bad manners in them (and in adults too). But if I had thrown bottles etc., like that, I could have looked forward to at least a slap or two from my outraged mother, if she once established that that's what I'd really done. And I have to say that the very few times I'd done something to deserve harsh criticism or even a slap, I knew I'd stepped way over the line. I had to learn there are some things you just don't do...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:09 PM

Some good advice for Young and Old 'Uns alike

Subject: RE: BS: Youth Crime, Seriously what can we do ?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 09:54 AM

I see two possibilities.

A. Try to make friends with them by inviting them in for Ice cream or cookies or something like a little party.

B. Get a camcorder and record them doing what others claim they are not doing.