Women and church crime

Subject: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:31 PM

Was Christ a chauvanist, or was it a misunderstanding, or just the times?
Would Christ condone excommunicating woman wishing to be equal members in their christian (RC) faith?

Some eastern religeons are are cited in the West for unequal and subservient treatment of women. Is the RC church acting much different, in this case?

Vatican condemns ordination of women as a "crime"

By VICTORIA L. SIMPSON The Associated Press
Sat. May 31 - 5:44 AM

VATICAN CITY — The Vatican insisted Friday that it is properly following Christian tradition by excluding women from the priesthood as it issued a new warning that women taking part in ordinations will be excommunicated.

The move dashed the hopes both of women seeking to be priests and of Roman Catholics who see that as an option for a church struggling to recruit men.

A top Vatican official said the church acted after what it described as "so-called ordinations held in various parts of the world.

Monsignor Angelo Amato of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said the Vatican wanted to provide bishops with a clear response on the issue.

The church has always banned the ordination of women by stating that the priesthood is reserved for males. The new decree is explicit in its reference to women.

"The church does not feel authorized to change the will of its founder, Jesus Christ, Amato said in an interview prepared for Vatican Radio that was released to reporters. The reference is to Christ's having chosen only men as his Apostles.

Asked whether the Roman Catholic Church was going "against the tide in respect to other Christian confessions, Amato said the church was in "good company with Orthodox and ancient Eastern churches and that it is the Protestants who are breaking with tradition.

In March, the archbishop of St. Louis excommunicated three women — two Americans and a South African — for participating in a woman's ordination. They were part of the Roman Catholic Womenpriests movement, which began in 2002.

The decree was published Thursday by Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, which in a headline called the ordination of women a "crime.

The congregation said it acted to "preserve the nature and validity of the sacrament of ordination.

The decree — signed by the congregation's head, American William Cardinal Levada — said anyone trying to ordain a woman and any woman who attempts to receive the ordination would incur automatic excommunication.

Pope Benedict led the doctrinal office before becoming pontiff in 2005. Like his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, he has consistently rebuffed calls to change traditional church teachings on divorce, abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage and the requirement that priests be male and celibate.

"We didn't expect anything different now, but in 20 to 30 years they will be expressing their regrets when they will need more priests, said Vittorio Bellavite, an Italian spokesman for the international reform group We Are Church.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:49 PM

There are many examples in the New Testament of women being admitted into "holy orders" - Phoebe was one of the first Deacons of the Christian church as shown, ironically enough, in the 'Letter to the Romans', from a man who shows many indications of not actually liking women very much:

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cenchreae, that you may receive her in the Lord as befits the saints, and help her in whatever she may require from you, for she has been a helper of many and of myself as well (Romans 16:1-2)."

I'm not usually into slagging off religious leaders but one can't help but feel that this present pontiff is intent on dragging the Roman Catholic Church screaming and kicking back into the middle of the 15th Century.

LTS

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:55 PM

If the first Apostles were short folks, could one justify this to exclude the tall?

As to thew will of Christ, the founder...

Did Crist actually state in scripture that women should be excluded from the top church posts? If you know where, let me in on it?

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:10 PM

If He did, surely he wouldn't have spent so much time with the Magdalene would He?

LTS

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:13 PM

"but one can't help but feel that this present pontiff is intent on dragging the Roman Catholic Church screaming and kicking back into the middle of the 15th Century."

And he's doing a good job of it, too.

If Jesus came back tomorrow, he would NOT recognize the Church founded in his name.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:53 PM

In addition to ordaining female ministers, most Protestant denominations also allow the lay members of their congregations a voice in hiring and firing ministers. I don't suppose Monsignor Amato would have much truck with that idea either.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 08 - 09:23 PM

The RC church has always been the epitome of right-wing bureaucracy, with concomitant power plays and politics of various sorts. Really, this is only confusing if you confuse the organization with the religious beliefs. They are as different as cows and pixies.


A

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:07 AM

Well, I'd like to see women and married people ordained priests, but it's something that has to have the overwhelming support of Catholics - and I think many Catholics in North America and Europe and most Catholics in Third World countries aren't ready to accept women priests.

And when you ordain a priest, you have to have the support of the church you're ordaining her for. You just can't go ordaining people without authority and expect NOT to be excommunicated.

So, I'd like to see women priests, but those who want ordination of women need to build a consensus of support first.

I'd also like to see the churches bless homosexual marriages and clarify thinking on sexuality in general, but that's an idea whose time has not yet come.

-Joe, Catholic-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:28 AM

Is it true that when a new pope is installed, the cardinals get to look up his dress to make sure he really is a bloke?

Can't be having another 'Pope Joan' incident now, can we?

LTS

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

Landover Baptist** Creation Scientist, Dr. Fred Neiman, announced findings related to his research into the female soul in May 2000 -

. "The absence of either salvation or condemnation for women finds extensive support in the Word of God." He reported. "Jesus said that the sole reason God created women in the first place was to provide company and service to men (1 Corinthians 11:9), God determined that men would be lonely living alone, so he created women purely to keep men company and serve their needs (Genesis 2:18-22). Women are therefore completely subordinate to men (1 Corinthians 11:3). It stands to reason, though, that once men enter the Kingdom of Heaven, they will be one with God, and will no longer be lonely and in need of mortal companionship. Thus, the reason behind having women will no longer exist. Women, like the members of the animal kingdom, will fall by the wayside."

Dr. Neiman went on to say that, "once men reunite with their maker, they will no longer be burdened with the care of women.

After all, women were inferior creations from the start.

Women are fond of self-indulgence (Isaiah 32:9-11).

They are silly and easily led into error (2 Timothy 3:6).

They are subtle and deceitful (Proverbs 7:10; Ecclesiastes 7:26).

They are zealous in promoting superstition and idolatry (Jeremiah 7:18; Ezekiel 13:17, 23).

And they are active in instigating to iniquity (Numbers 31:15-16; 1 Kings 21:25; Nehemiah 13:26).

It was the inherent weakness of women that led them to be deceived by Satan (Genesis 3:1-6; 2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Timothy 2:14).

Consequently, women were cursed from the start (Genesis 3:16).

There is simply no room in heaven for such flawed and inadequate beings."

** Landover Baptist church proclaims itself to be

'The Largest, Most Powerful Assembly Of Worthwhile People To Ever Exist
Unsaved are NOT welcome'

I guess I'm relieved that includes me :)

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:03 AM

Joe,
And, just how would women build such a consensus of support in such a church structure, not known to be influenced in any real way by its members?

Is excommunication, which I assume means excluding these christian foilks from access to this church not heavy handed in today world? It seems like reminents of the Spanish Inquisition. Are there many terrible folks who do terrible things who do not face the heavy handed RC church excommunication, including priests.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:14 AM

Not being a Catholic, or any sort of Christian for that matter any more, I'm not entirely qualified to comment. However, there has been rather a lot of discussion in recent years about the Council of Nicea (in 350 or thereabouts) having edited out any mention of female leadership in the original Church when they decided which gospels would become "official".

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Alice
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:40 AM

It was my impression that most Catholics think women should be able to be ordained as priests... so I googled it to see.
Gallup poll, 64% of US Catholics support women's ordination as priests.

Here is also another interesting example of women's ordination:

--
These ordinations call to mind the Roman Catholic women who have been ordained in the recent past. On December 28, 1970, Ludmila Javorova was ordained a Roman Catholic priest in the underground church of Communist Czechoslovakia. The decision to do so was made during a secret synod called by Bishop Felix Davidek that was composed of bishops, priests and laity. Bishop Davidek ordained the first woman priest, Javorova, who served as Vicar General of the underground diocese for 20 years. She was one of up to six women who were ordained in this way.

After the fall of Communism, the Vatican declared all of the underground ordinations invalid. The single men were allowed to be re-ordained, and the married men to be re-ordained into the Eastern Rite where marriage is allowed, yet the women were given no such options. Javorova accepts that she cannot function as a priest without the official church's mandate, but she clearly maintains the validity of her orders.

Catholic women are called to ordination and some are moving forward with ordination without Vatican approval. Catholics are accepting these women as priests, and they are serving in Catholic communities by administering the sacraments. The broad consultation that occurred in the underground synod in Communist Czechoslovakia — where all members of the church community were included in the decision making process — serves as a model of the way an inclusive and accountable Catholic Church could operate. Catholics need to be aware of this history and the Vatican needs to be reminded of it.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:43 AM

Joe,
A question:

Are the RC faithful now required to "shun" the folks who were excommunicated,having no social interaction or even any discussion (even on mudcat:) with them?

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:48 AM

A SIX NATION STUDY

                 Spain Ireland USA Italy Poland Philippines 
  
  Married Priests 79%    82%   69%  67%    50%     21%
  
  Women Priests   71%    67%   65%  58%    24%     18%
   
  More Change     74%    79%   65%  51%    56%     48%

THE LAITY AND REFORM IN THE CHURCH:

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: GUEST,John otSC from a different browser
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:00 PM

I, although not a Christian, believe if Christ came into the world today he would not recgnize any of present Christianity as what he was teaching.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:01 PM

I think everyone who thinks women should be ordained as priests should get one of THESE an wear it as an obvious sign to get the point across. (From the Landover Baptist site.)

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:04 PM

Based on the above poll, again, Joe, just how would women build a consensus of support in such a church structure, not known to be influenced in any real way by its members.

After all, this RC administration suggests they are not authorised in this case (maybe not so in other cases) to make a change. They seem to say that in their interpretation (again in this case) this issue is clearly following the will of Jesus Christ, the RC (and the Christian church's) founder.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:37 PM

Excommunication forbids those affected from receiving the sacraments or sharing in acts of public worship.

Excommunication is usually "ferendae sententiae", imposed as punishment.

But some offences, including heresy, schism, and laying violent hands on the Pope, are considered so disruptive of ecclesiastical life that they trigger automatic excommunication, or "latae sententiae" i.e excommunication is automatic

In the canon law of the Catholic Church a woman who is ordained as a priest or a bishop who ordains a woman as a priest would be excommunicated "latae sententiae".

'This decree was written by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and published in the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, giving it immediate effect.

Rev. Tom Reese, a senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University, said he thought the decree was meant to send a warning to the growing number of Catholics who favor admitting women to the priesthood.

"I think the reason they're doing this is that they've realized there is more and more support among Catholics for ordaining women, and they want to make clear that this is a no-no," Reese said.'
Reuters May 29th

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

Well, if the purpose of the penality is to wipe out growing support, I guess that rules out the wisdome of trying to "build a consensus" in the RC church on this issue, now wouldn't it?

Truly a church of man, so to say (note that, I say so at fear of excommunication myself).


Latæ and Ferendæ Sententiæ

Excommunication, especially a jure, is either latæ or ferendæ sententiæ. The first is incurred as soon as the offence is committed and by reason of the offence itself (eo ipso) without intervention of any ecclesiastical judge; it is recognized in the terms used by the legislator, for instance: "the culprit will be excommunicated at once, by the fact itself [statim, ipso facto]". The second is indeed foreseen by the law as a penalty, but is inflicted on the culprit only by a judicial sentence; in other words, the delinquent is rather threatened than visited with the penalty, and incurs it only when the judge has summoned him before his tribunal, declared him guilty, and punished him according to the terms of the law. It is recognized when the law contains these or similar words: "under pain of excommunication"; "the culprit will be excommunicated".
From:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:43 PM

In RC Doctrine, do the excommunicated go to hell for their transgression?

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:48 PM

The excommunicated are excluded from RC services(i.e conmmunion), so...if they gravely sin, there are few option for religeous forgiveness...in this case, a trip below would be one possible scenario.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 08:56 PM

I have a friend who is a deacon, a married, ordained minister in the Catholic Church. In most places in the United States, wives are required to attend the four or five years with their deacon candidate husbands. Well, in the course of their training, my friend's wife felt called to ministry. So, she went to an interfaith seminary, the Graduate Theological Union, and was ordained a Lutheran minister. So we have the interesting situation of a Catholic minister being married to a Lutheran minister - I wonder how common that is. I'd doubt there are a dozen in the world. I'm surprised that our rather conservative bishop seems to accept our Catholic deacon and his Lutheran minister wife. I've never heard anybody make a fuss about it.

My pastor says the Catholic Church has "clay feet" - it moves very slowly indeed. That's not altogether a bad thing. A number of the "mainline" Protestant churches have done everything according to the rules of Political Correctness - ordaining women and sometimes even homosexuals. Many of these churches have declined dramatically in membership, losing members to the clutches of mindless fundamentalism. These churches may be right in the positions they have taken, but they have lost the ability to affect their more conservative members - and that has served to further polarize the face of Christianity. The Catholic Church has more than a billion members, and it takes a long time to move a billion people in one direction or another. It will take a lot of time and a lot of patience to get these people to move without splitting apart. I realize that Protestants are used to splitting when they disagree - but could it be that unity may be just as worthwhile as rapid change?

If the Catholic Church ordains women, what happens to the 82% of Filipino Catholics and the 76% of Polish Catholics and the 42% of American Catholics who do not support the ordination of women? Do we send them all off to the fundamentalists, or might it be better to give them time to change their minds and hearts?

I'd like to see women and married people ordained Catholic priests. Heck, I'd like to be ordained a priest myself, except that I have problems with celibacy and authority and the current elitist theology of priesthood. I'm not a member, but I'm associated with an organization called Call to Action, which supports the idea of married and female priests. Most Catholics who promote the ordination of women, hope to do it by changing the hearts of those in power, so that those ordinations are accepted throughout the Catholic Church. There are few on the fringe who remove themselves from the church by ordaining women without authority. The penalty for that is excommunication - and that's apparently a penalty they're willing to accept. There are others of us who believe in the primacy of the Priesthood of the Faithful over those who have been ordained, so there may come a time when the ordaining of women or men is besides the point.

Do I think people will go to hell for ordaining women or for being ordained as a woman? Certainly not.

Are they unfairly deprived by not being able to receive communion or seek sacramental forgiveness from the Catholic Church? Heck, no - they can receive sacraments from a woman priest. Still, I know they feel a loss from being disconnected from a church they've belonged to all their lives. But that's one of the principles of civil disobedience - that you have to accept the consequences of your action.

If you defy the authority of the church by ordaining without authorization, then what's the big deal about being excommunicated by authority you don't recognize? Oh, and I've never heard of any requirement to shun people who have been excommunicated.

I can't defend the Catholic Church for failing to ordain women - I think it should; and I believe that it eventually will, in one form or another.

I see the Catholic Church as an organism of independent souls that have a surprising amount of individual freedom. Even the Pope can't move this organism very efficiently - and I think I'm glad he can't. The Second Vatican Council (1962-65) brought about a large number of changes in a seemingly immobile church - but now it's over 40 years later, and large parts of the Catholic Church still haven't accepted those changes. I've pushed for change all my life - and I'm not ready to give up at this point.

I'm not sure I even completely accept the traditional idea of a lifelong ordained priesthood. The main function of a priest is to preside at liturgy and administer the sacraments. Perhaps at some future time, leadership will flow from the community, and not from a caste of leaders ordained by hierarchical authority. The time for that idea has not yet come, I'm afraid. Ordaining women might prolong the traditional, top-down model of priesthood - just like naming female managers has preserved the corporate model in business.

Oh, and let me share a quote from my friend Sister Esther, on her 50th anniversary of her profession as a nun: "This celebration is going to be run by women, and my brother the priest is going to sit there in his seat and like it." She did, and he did - and it was a wonderful celebration. Come to think of it, I guess I was the only male who had a speaking part.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:01 PM

"Do I think people will go to hell for ordaining women or for being ordained as a woman? Certainly not."

Joe, I've read enough of your stance by now that I would have pooped from shock if you said anything else; I was admitting uncertainty as to how much the "excommunicators" allege that excommunication implies.

And good for Sister Esther, and those Catholic clergy who can accept her stance.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:33 PM

Well, Frogprince, they've vastly toned down the threats of hellfire and brimstone. I don't think they're sure anymore, about who's going to hell and who's not.
And what with the child molestation scandal, I'm not sure they want to begin to speculate....

I think that the media give the Catholic Church a far more conservative image than it actually has. It's common to see the Catholic Church as a strictly-defined hierarchical structure, but its actual function is far more amorphous and organic. The right-wingers spend a lot of money on media, and their image of strict authority and rigid doctrine prevails in the media. If you look at the Websites of the Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, Benedictines, Trappists, and other traditional religious orders, you'll get a far different picture from what you get from the neoconservatives who spend their money on media and indoctrination instead of on service the poor and oppressed. Even the Vatican Website, www.vatican.va/ is far more progressive than the neoconservatives who run the Catholic radio and TV networks in the U.S.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Slag
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:19 PM

Saint Peter, if he indeed be the author of the epistles which bear his name, stated in I Peter 2:9 "But ye (2nd pers. plural) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; etc." The point here, at least from a Protestant perspective, is that the believer, regardless of accidents of birth, is already a member of the priesthood. That is, he OR she can intercede through prayer for any other soul because of the direct access to the Throne of Heaven. We pray in Jesus name because He is our only intercessor with God the Father. When taken in light of the Pauline doctrine of Galatians 3:26-29, in part, "...there is neither Jew nor Greek, their is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus..." makes a pretty solid and convincing case for the ordination of women.

I know the argument from Scripture, both for and against, is much more elaborate and extensive than the above but the above has a lot more internal evidentiary weight than the opposing view, IMHO. For those who know the Bible it is obvious that God does not hesitate to raise up a women here and there to do a job or take the lead when the situation calls. I see Christ's complete inclusion of women as a key elevating factor for women which is ongoing to this day.

I certainly hope that the Landover Baptists are not viewed as typical of Baptists' or other Protestant doctrine with regards to women or any other issue for that matter.

Women! Where would we be without them?!!!

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:25 PM

Joe, on one hand you seem to see merit in the RC church being slow to change. On another hand you seem to champion those who select particular RC doctrine and ignore others? If one does not accept the doctrine, why be there at all? Seems to defeat the purpose to me.

Is keeping $ in the collection plate really what it is all about?

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:33 PM

Slag, the Landover Baptist site is a put on, just taking the most over-the-top fundamentalist positions and pushing them even further over the top; it's been discussed here quite a bit before. You're by no means the only person who hasn't caught it; it can be tricky to pull off satire of something that is already as goofy as Monty Python.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Slag
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:53 PM

Gull-i-bull! I thought that this might be that group that goes about disrupting veterans' funerals. That must be the Overland Baptists! nonetheless...

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:22 AM

Ed, you're seeing the Catholic Church through fundamentalist eyes. It's not as monolithic and narrowly-defined as you might think, and the authority of Rome is far from absolute. Of the people who attended the two Call to Action conferences I've attended, most have been employed by the Catholic Church at one time or another (me, too), and I'd say a quarter of the attendees were nuns. Almost all have a high level of Catholic theological education - and all favor ordination of women and married people, dignity for homosexuals, and and a redefining of authority within the church. They are the intelligentsia of the American Catholic Church. I will admit that there were very few priests in attendance - that authority issue...

And generally, they know and accept and share Roman Catholic doctrine - which is not the rigid and narrow and simplistic agenda the neoconservatives would have you think it is. Look into the traditional Catholic religious orders, and you will see the broad spectrum of Catholic thinking. And interestingly, although Pope Benedict tends to be conservative, he is a very rational and reasonable person, and he is far more acceptable to the Catholic intelligentsia than his predecessor was.

Outsiders seem to think that members of a church are made by cookie cutters, that they all have think and act and pray the same.

Not so, at least not in the Catholic Church and in most other "mainline" churches - people in those churches think a lot more independently than you might imagine. In fact, "critical thinking" is one of the primary goals of Catholic education.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Doc John
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:45 AM

Considering the head of the Church of England is a woman - Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (aka Windsor, R), calling herself Queen of England etc, it's quite farcical that this church - which should give a moral lead - has been allowed, and is still allowed, to discriminate against women, an act which is illegal in all other organisations. However all modern religions (although not all branches of them) seem to discriminate against women in various ways to a greater or lesser degree. This certainly does not seem to have been the case in religions of the ancient world.
I only hope that this is not what Jesus intended otherwise I'm tempted to join Richard Dawkins, Lord Azriel or the Society of Jaques Molay. I don't think we can use the Bible- especially the Old Testament - to justify this discrimination as you can always find a quotation to contradict the last quotation or one to justify anything.
Doc John

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:03 AM

Doc John - The Church of England has been ordaining women priests for over a decade now. The next step is ordination to the Bishopric, but that may take a little while longer. However, the Church of New Zealand has had a female bishop for almost as long as England has had women priests.

The argument is about the Catholic church, not the Anglican church.

LTS

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Doc John
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:53 AM

True LTS, but it did take the C of E nearly 500 years to get round to ordaining women priests and then quite a few left the church because of this dreadful heresy, including some clergy who became Catholic priests; they didn't put away their wives however. Yes the next stage is ordaining female bishops but why is it taking so long. I'm glad to see that the Church of New Zealand (I knew that the USA churches were doing this) is more enlightened, more egalitarian and - to me the most important factor - less hypocritical.
Doc John

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: John O'L
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:53 AM

"The church does not feel authorized to change the will of its founder, Jesus Christ ... The reference is to Christ's having chosen only men as his Apostles."

This is the first time I've heard Jesus refered to as the founder of the Church of Rome. He had nothing to do with its founding. He was long dead. In fact I thought he advised against trying to convert the gentiles. He was only ever interested in reforming Judaism.

As for his band of all-male apostles, I seriously doubt that. I think it's pretty clear now that Mary was at least one of them if not 2IC.
Even if they had been all men, I don't see that as any reason to suppose he'd disaprove of female priests in a religious discipline he knew nothing about. In fact I think he would regard the Vatican in much the same way as he regarded the Pharisees - that is, in serious need of reformation.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Slag
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:17 AM

Jesus was the Messiah, the Promised One to the Jews and the Children of Israel. He was the fulfillment of God's covenant with Abraham and because His mission was first to the Jews, He purposefully excluded the gentiles. Yet there are several instances where He was impressed by the faith and persistence of gentile seekers and He answered their requests. He used these occasions to demonstrate the spiritual awareness of those excluded from the Covenant of Abraham.

He told his disciples that He had sheep from another flock which most interpreters take to mean the gentiles. It was the responsibility of the children of Abraham to share their knowledge of God with the rest of the world. They failed also at this task, as a nation. When you read the parables and teaching of Jesus as exclusively TO the Jews you really get a proper perspective of the New Testament. With the resurrection of Christ, His word to the disciples was then to go into all the world ( better translation of Mark 16:15 is "...as you go into all the world...")spread the Good News.

Your statement "He was long dead." shows me where your prejudice lies. My view is that if Jesus be dead then the whole thing is pointless and empty and the question has no relevance except as to the structure of a social club.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: John O'L
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:14 AM

My comment about him being long dead was with respect to the time-frame which makes it impossible for him to have founded the Church of Rome. I did not intended to challenge his immortality.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Slag
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:46 AM

Thank you for the clarification.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:47 AM

Strangely enough, the more I learn of the Orthodox Jewish faith, the more I understand my own Christian faith.

Just had a visit from the vicar... we talked about insurance loss adjusters and what gits they are.

LTS

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 10:10 AM

That should be Orthodox and Christian of course..... Raven kitty was helping me type.

LTS

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Bee
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:18 AM

Emma B, I know it's hard to tell, but Landover Baptist is a satirical website, the mention of which among dedicated fundamentalists causes foaming at the mouth and exploding heads. ;-)

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:22 AM

Landover Baptist Link

www.landoverbaptist.org - always good for a laugh or two.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

Guessed as much Bee but, unfortunately, the biblical references ain't!

Anyways as Wesley said - needed a laugh :)

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:09 PM

I kinda like the Gospel of Mary:

    Chapter 9

    1) When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken with her.

    2) But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, Say what you wish to say about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas.

    3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things.

    4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?

    5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?

    6) Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered.

    7) Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.

    8) But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well.

    9) That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said.

    10) And when they heard this they began to go forth to proclaim and to preach.

The Gospel According to Mary.

You can find it all on the Web, or buy a copy of the book from the Jesus Seminar (I did), if you want to read what is still extant.

I kinda like the part about not laying down any other rule or other law....

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:35 AM

The Church of England has been ordaining women priests for over a decade now. The next step is ordination to the Bishopric, but that may take a little while longer. However, the Church of New Zealand has had a female bishop for almost as long as England has had women priests.

While I take Liz' point that the discussion has been mainly about the Church of Rome, some may be interested to learn that Oz has had a few Anglican women priests for a few years now and, despite the exertions of the Anglican Archbishop of Sydney and his brother the Archdeacon, Oz now has its first Anglican woman bishop; in Perth.

And, last time I looked, while priests were "ordained", bishops were "consecrated", in both ritual jurisdictions.

Joe's posts seem, to me, to be an accurate summary of the state of much lay thinking, rationally presented, in both the US and in Oz, although Cardinal Pell (in Sydney) would stand out as being as narrowly focussed as any of Joe's "neocons". I don't think the statement "the church is not a democracy, but is a source of authority in the world" came from Cardinal Pell but his actions and words indicate he is a firm believer in its meaning.

Which I find interesting, in light of his support for the World Youth Day soon to be celebrated in Sydney and the encouragement of young women to take on leadership roles in their preparation and followup activities.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Alice
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:53 AM

When I first saw this thread title, I thought it was about the FLDS. Churches in general are pretty hard on women.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: GUEST,Ed t
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:11 PM

Joe, (sorry for a slow response, was out of town) You say you "see the Catholic Church as an organism of independent souls that have a surprising amount of individual freedom".

I suggest this freedom is not real nor sanctioned in any way by the church. To keep up numbers, I suspect the local RC organization (and others) turn a blind eye to docrine (or individual practices) that is not popular within the local organization. However, I don't feel one should confuse this with actual "individual freedom" or a slow movement to change within the RC church.

I suspect many people who silently (or maybe some less so) pick and choose or just ignore church docrine that they feel comfortable with (ie birth control, abortion etc). This seems kind of pointless to me and likely contributes to little reform.

I respect the protestants movement for bringing christianity forward, rather than holding it in the dark ages. If it was not for the protestant movement, I suspect we would still see the disgusting excesses of the RC church of the past. We live with examples of other religeons who have not progressed much from early times, because there was no similar movement.

What you refer to as mere political correctness, others may see as basic human rights within the christian faith. There was a time that slavery and male only voting was upheld by the conservative vested interests. Fortunately, oprotect and reform impacted rapid change.

Yes, many christian churches have declined dramatically in membership, including the RC church. You refer to losing members to "the clutches of mindless fundamentalism". I am not really sure what that means, but I respect that people should have choices to join whatever movement that supports their views. Better to have a place for all within the christian faith than no alternative for divergent views.

While the Catholic Church may have more than a billion members, Don't fool yourself that there are not nearly a billion viewpoints on many issues and possibly as many direction followed within the church (that seems so stable from the top). I suggest that unity within the RC church is merely a mirage.

I suggest that the RC churech is slowly decaying from within, and predict that billions of younger folks will not seek to be members of a church stuck in the past.

History has proven that real reform is normally moved by dissent not by patience, nor complaciency by a conservative (and vested) center, nor a billion slow moving feet.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:31 AM

Heck, I'd like to be ordained a priest myself, except that I have problems with celibacy and authority and the current elitist theology of priesthood. Joe Offer

I can see that you might have a small problem, Joe. :)


"Women! Where would we be without them?!!!" Slag

Well, for starters, you wouldn't be here. *g*

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 03:48 AM

Well, Ed, I don't know what to say to you, since I don't know what your experience is. I've been a Catholic all my life, educated in Catholic schools for 16 years (8 in a seminary, with a BA in Theology). I've been employed by the Catholic Church on several occasions, most recently as a teacher of religion to adults coming into the Catholic Church. I know how much freedom I have or don't have in the Catholic Church. I know there were some restrictions on what I could teach as an employee (but fewer restrictions than other employers imposed on me), and fewer restrictions on what I teach as a volunteer. I know that I would have had more restrictions as a priest or deacon; but as a lay person, my freedom is quite complete. Heck, my membership in the Catholic Church is voluntary. What can they force me to do? Even excommunication is mostly an empty threat. It doesn't happen very often, and it doesn't mean much when it does happen.

I also know that there are varying levels of doctrine; and the teachings on birth control and abortion, while binding, are not as unchangeable as the doctrines of the Creed and certain other dogmatic teachings. And I also know that in most circumstances, my sincere conscience supersedes the authority of Church teaching. I accept the Catholic teaching on abortion, but reject the idea that the teaching requires legislators to enact laws against abortion. I don't accept the Catholic prohibition of birth control - but that's a prohibition that even the Pope doesn't pay a whole lot of attention to, so I have to suspect that it is of lesser importance. There's a lot of teachings that the Catholic Church just doesn't bother teaching any more, just like governments don't bother enforcing laws that are irrelevant. If you're a fundamentalist, then you make a big deal out of strict enforcement of everything - but most people are able to see shades of grey and don't require everything to be black-and-white.

Please don't view my perspective on the rights of women and homosexuals as "mere political correctness." That's not my belief. I think these rights are very important - but I think they may be more permanent and effective if these rights are accepted and blessed by Catholics rather than imposed upon them.

And I'm very comfortable with the possibility of there being a billion viewpoints among the billion members of the Catholic Church. If a church is to live up to the ideals it professes, then I think it must find ways to achieve unity without uniformity. I think a community is enriched by diversity of opinion and thought - and I think that diversity has been present in the Catholic Church throughout its history (with varying levels of harmony).

I don't quite see why so many people seem to think that members of a religious creed must be absolutely uniform in their acceptance of every church teaching. The fundamentalists may think that, but most Catholics aren't fundamentalists. Heck, I don't accept everything that goes on in my own family - why do I have to accept everything that goes on in my church? It's sometimes hard for me to accept that my children and my wife think for themselves - but I certainly wouldn't want to have it any other way.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:24 AM

OK, John O'L, now give me a chance to respond to you.

It's pretty standard Catholic teaching that the Christian Church was founded by Jesus Christ - they take the quote from Jesus, "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church." (Matthew 16:18). I suppose you can interpret it other ways, but the most obvious one would be that Christ intended to build a church in collusion with Peter.

And it's pretty clear that Jesus picked a number of followers, most notably 12 MEN (referred to as The Twelve), and they followed him and carried on his teachings - and to a lot of people, that would be enough to convince them that Jesus was founding a church.

There are certainly other valid perspectives - one could also say that the Twelve (the Apostles) founded the Church (although it was a sect of Judaism at the beginning); or that Paul founded the Church by establishing non-Jewish Christian congregations. I think there is truth in all three perspectives - and that the three perspectives are not mutually exclusive (unless you are a fundamentalist and open to only one perspective).

I have an acquaintance I don't care for very much. Every time I see him, he pontificates about how Constantine founded the Church in the 300's, and I've told him I think that's an insult because it considers the Church as merely a political organization and denies the spirituality that has always been important to believers. Oh, I'm sure that Constantine and countless other political leaders have seriously meddled with the structure of the Church through the centuries; but the faith of individuals has endured despite the politics and corruption of the institution. But again, if you're a fundamentalist, you can only see one perspective. You see the Church either as a political institution or as a religious one, but not both.

You said the following, and I'm not sure I understand you correctly:

As for his band of all-male apostles, I seriously doubt that. I think it's pretty clear now that Mary was at least one of them if not 2IC.

I take it you're speculating that Mary Magdalene may have been second-in-charge. Am I right?
Well, I think it's clear that Mary Magdalene was certainly held in high respect, but there's no evidence whatsoever that she was in a position of leadership. There were women who were in positions of leadership in the Church in Asia Minor, but not in Judea and the Galilee - and not in Jewish society of the time, in general. The New Testament makes it very clear that Jesus chose twelve men. It doesn't make a big deal about them being men - they just were.

So, I think it's a stretch to say that Mary Magdalene was chosen by Christ as a leader, and therefore there should be women priests. On the other hand, I think it's a stretch to think that Christ intended that only males should be church leaders. I think it's safe to say he chose males to be the Twelve (apostles) because of the structure of Jewish society at the time. He didn't say anything at all about leadership being male or female, so I think it's ludicrous to speculate either way on what Christ intended for the gender of church leaders.

The fact of the matter is that at the present time, women serve credibly as leaders - so they should alse be allowed to serve as religious leaders. Speculating on Christ's intent is silly, because he didn't say anything about the subject - and neither did Paul or the other Scripture writers.

So, although I agree that women and men should be completely equal in all functions in the Church, I think you're really speculating about Mary Magdalene; and you're being too rigid in seeing only one perspective on the foundation of the Church.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:35 AM

Mark 16:9-14:
9 Having risen in the morning on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary of Magdala from whom he had cast out seven devils.
10 She then went to those who had been his companions, and who were mourning and in tears, and told them.
11 But they did not believe her when they heard her say that he was alive and that she had seen him.
12 After this, he showed himself under another form to two of them as they were on their way into the country.
13 These went back and told the others, who did not believe them either.
14 Lastly, he showed himself to the Eleven themselves while they were at table. He reproached them for their incredulity and obstinacy, because they had refused to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

John 20:11-18:

11 But Mary was standing outside near the tomb, weeping. Then, as she wept, she stooped to look inside,
12 and saw two angels in white sitting where the body of Jesus had been, one at the head, the other at the feet.
13 They said, 'Woman, why are you weeping?' 'They have taken my Lord away,' she replied, 'and I don't know where they have put him.'
14 As she said this she turned round and saw Jesus standing there, though she did not realise that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus said to her, 'Woman, why are you weeping? Who are you looking for?' Supposing him to be the gardener, she said, 'Sir, if you have taken him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will go and remove him.'
16 Jesus said, 'Mary!' She turned round then and said to him in Hebrew, 'Rabbuni!'-which means Master.
17 Jesus said to her, 'Do not cling to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to the brothers, and tell them: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'
18 So Mary of Magdala told the disciples, 'I have seen the Lord,' and that he had said these things to her.

Seems to me that the Gospels are pretty clear that Yeshua appeared first to Mary M. and only later to the Apostles. In John, Peter and the other guy run back to where ever the 12 are hiding out, but JC appears to Mary M. She, in both accounts, carries the word of the Ressurection back to the 12 men.

For whatever it's worth, I agree with Joe Offer about Catholics pretty much thinking what they want and not letting the Church get in the way of their Religion.

(Rapaire: 8 years with the SSNDs in Catholic Grade School, 4 years with the Christian Brothers, 6 years with the Franciscans in college [including 21 semester hours of Theology], and friendly with nuns, priests and permanent Deacons.)

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

Oh, I certainly think it's clear that Jesus had deep affection for Mary Magdalene, that she was very important to him. Still, I think it's a bit much to extrapolate that she held a position of leadership in the the early church or that she was on a par with the Twelve or above them. Jesus showed a respect for women that was far beyond the position of women at the time - but there's no evidence that the Apostles considered her or any other woman, even the mother of Jesus, to be on a par with them.

So, to use Mary Magdalene as a reason for ordaining women seems to be a stretch - just as much of a stretch as contending that the maleness of the Apostles is justification for ordaining only men. There's just no evidence, either way.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Rowan
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:03 PM

Jesus showed a respect for women that was far beyond the position of women at the time - but there's no evidence that the Apostles considered her or any other woman, even the mother of Jesus, to be on a par with them.

While I can't disagree with the argument Joe has presented (to use Mary Magdalene as a reason for ordaining women seems to be a stretch - just as much of a stretch as contending that the maleness of the Apostles is justification for ordaining only men. There's just no evidence, either way. it seems to me that, in this century, the context may have changed enough for a contrary argument to be brought to bear.

The first italicised phrase is a reasonable summary of how so many modern Christians view gender relationships, whether secular or religious. In those jurisdictions where discrimination on the basis of sex/gender is illegal such people are prevented (sometimes) from implementing those beliefs in the secular field. I suspect much of the background to this thread is a notion that the prevention of discrimination ought be extended from the secular into the religious jurisdiction.

Well, that unites many from the Orthodox (whether Roman or Eastern) rites with many of the Protestant rites; in Oz, the Uniting Church and the majority of the Anglican Church not under the direct control of the Sydney Archbishopric would be the only places where women are regarded (in both theory and practice) as "equal".

And, as most institutions embodying entrenched orthodoxy seem very keen to follow the age-old path of arrogating the truth unto themselves, notions of gender equality take a lot of time to penetrate to the extent that they can exercise "change". It still hasn't fully penetrated at the higher levels of secular orthodoxy and it will take some time yet for the various forms of religious orthodoxy to catch up.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:53 PM

Joe

You say "Please don't view my perspective on the rights of women and homosexuals as "mere political correctness." That's not my belief. I think these rights are very important - but I think they may be more permanent and effective if these rights are accepted and blessed by Catholics rather than imposed upon them".

I wonder where human rights in the free world (including your country) would be today if the same "move slow and appease the conservatives" approach was taken with slavery?

You refer to liberalism within some protestant sects as polarizing the face of Christianity.   Consoider that the opposite, no real change to appease conservatives (many older), and ignoring individual practice within the RC church is making it redundant? I suspect the impact would be greater with yourth, which I may lead to polarization, or younger folks leaving christianity altogether?

Thanks for the interesting conversation and perspective from "kind of" within.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 06:26 PM

I think that the Catholic Church should ordain women and married people. It has done both in the past; Brigid of Kildare, for example, was even a Bishop and ordained priests. St. Pete himself was married, and if Yeshua thought a married man was good enough to be the "Rock" upon which the Church was founded who are we to disagree?

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Slag
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:14 PM

Exactly my point Ebbie!

You have to admit, Joe, that in more distant time the member who did not toe the RCC line was likely to wind up dead or under house arrest. It seemed whenever a doctrinal point of view was adopted, THAT WAS IT! Heresy was a friable matter. And Yes! It was not limited to The RCC. The Break-offs and Protestants, while ducking the Inquisition were busy burning and hanging their members who did not toe THEIR line. Over all I much prefer the age of reason and open dialog. It's a tricky walk for the Church authorities. They have to draw the lines, define the lines and take some kind of action when folks go too far. Only they can't be burning anyone at the stake any more! Some would call this apostasy but I disagree. In an age of individual freedom, I call it a matter of conscience and choice. It's a much greater burden for the hearer and the seeker to sift through the many clamouring ideas and beliefs to land upon a system (or no system at all) that meets their needs or speaks truth to their souls. But then (if you believe as I believe) when we stand before our Maker we will be responsible for our own lives and the choices which we have made.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:15 PM

Well, Ed -
I'm in a difficult position defending the Catholic Church and its failure to ordain women or have married clergy in the Latin Rite ("Eastern Rite" Roman Catholics have married priests, but don't ordain women). I want to see those changes, and I've worked toward those changes all my adult life. Still, I'm not ready to leave the Catholic Church because I haven't gotten my way. Part of that is my belief that the Catholic Church is MY church as much as it belongs to every other Catholic. It isn't the Pope's church - he's just the CEO. The Catholic Church isn't ruled by majority vote or by executive authority - when it lives up to its ideals, it's supposed to be ruled by consensus. Consensus is very hard to form, and to change.

But I like the idea of consensus. I'll agree that achieving it is a slow process, and that it requires a lot of patience and tolerance. It's not something most people are used to or comfortable with, but I think it's a good ideal to strive for. And despite the attempt of authorities to make it otherwise, I think that for the most part, the Catholic Church has developed by evolution rather than by the imposition of authority. Try as it will, no authority has ever been able to establish complete control over the human heart.

As for your statement about appeasing older conservatives, what's distressing to me is that many of the most conservative members of the Catholic Church are far younger than I am, and the so-called "liberals" like me seem to be a dying generation. Younger voices in the Catholic Church seem to want the old-time control that Slag speaks of.

The Catholic Church is growing by leaps and bounds in places like Africa. It's a huge presence in South America, even though it is losing many members to the more conservative evangelical churches. It's also very strong in the Philippines, but quite conservative. I like the idea of belonging to a church that has vast numbers of members in Third World countries, even if those people don't quite buy into my middle-class American intellectual Catholic liberalism. It's a bit of struggle for me to be open to their conservative thinking and to attempt to maintain unity and consensus with them, but I think it's worthwhile.

Rapaire, I think it's safe to say that according to legend, Brigid of Kildare may have been a bishop or equivalent, or maybe she wasn't. I don't think you'll find solid evidence to prove one way or another, just as you won't find proof that Mary Magdalen was a bishop or apostle. That's what we need, though - some inspired woman leader of saintly character like Brigid to apply for ordination. Would the Catholic Church have refused ordination to Mother Theresa if she had requested it? People wanted her to be named a saint by acclamation - why not name her a priest by acclamation? Well, because she didn't ask for it.

But it will come. Watch people like Joan Chittister, a towering intellect and former Benedictine abbess who has promoted women's ordination for many years. Sooner or later, the Catholic Church will have a critical mass of strong, spiritual, credible women like Joan Chittister, and the policy will change. Another group to watch is the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, most notably the last Sister Mary Luke Tobin. It will be the strong, hard-working, credible women who will lead the Catholic Church to more equitable treatment of women. The strident women who scream for their "right" to ordination and perform their own ordinations, won't accomplish anything but the separation of themselves from the Catholic Church.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:07 PM

Joe, In no way am I syggesting that anyone should leave their religeon. I applaud your personal committment, faith and vision.

However, I am suggesting that real change rarely occurs from small protest. While your faith is yours indeed, I do not see that you or your sisters and brothers really direct the RC church. Yes, I suspect the Pope does notv have total power, that he does have a huge inside influence. But, I see little evidence that there is actually much control or decision making power by the RC population, nor that the RC church is a democracy, as I see you paint it.

Your statements on RC youth seem odd to me.

Is it possible that your observation, whixh I take to e that that RC youth are more conservative than the middle aged-older population, is local or from your country, and not representing the broad RC youth? If not, I supect the liberal RC youth (which is dominant in the general western population) have already left?

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:23 PM

Nope, Ed. Read what I said again. The Catholic Church is not a democracy at all, Ed. Democracies are ruled by mere majority votes. The Catholic Church is ruled by consensus. People influence the direction of the church in different degrees, according to their level of credibility. And I will admit that the Pope has an incredible amount of credibility, if you will forgive my play on words. Throughout history, there have been saints in the church who have had more credibility than the Pope - people like Paul and Brigid and Francis of Assisi and Thomas Aquinas and Luther and Theresa of Avila. People like thse have had the avility to affect profound changes in the Church.

About conservatism and youth - Actually, I'm not so sure there ARE large numbers of "liberal" youth, other than a few ideological liberals who don't really think for themselves. Someplace between the ages of twenty and forty, religious faith changes from indoctrination to spirituality - usually with a period of agnosticism or atheism in between. People who don't go through that in-between stage ("crisis of faith") usually end up spending their lives in a stage of spiritual rigidity, desperately hanging onto what they've been taught without ever having made the faith their own.

Until the advent of neoconservatism in about 1980, Catholic seminary students were pushed to go through this crisis of faith before ordination, so they would be reasonably mature in their spirituality by the time they were ordained - this happened even before Vatican II. You still see this level of spiritual maturity in newly-ordained priests in many of the traditional religious orders, but not so often in diocesan priests or in members of the neoconservative orders like the Legionaries of Christ, that have sprung up in recent years.

As for other young people, the ones who should grow up to be "liberals," I'm not sure the current generation has much interest in spirituality. True spirituality has an aspect of altruism and discipline and sacrifice that aren't a very popular part of our culture just now. I expect things will swing back and I do see signs of altruism in many young people, but the popular current trends in religion seem to be either rigid conservatism or "self-help" feelgood pop psychology. I think that's part of the reason for the decline in membership in the "mainline" churches like Lutherans and Episcopalians and Methodists that have turned toward social justice and tolerance. Lately, though, I've seen evangelical and selfhelp churches (Unity, for example) showing interest in social justice, and I see that as a very positive sign. I think younger people are finally starting to see that there is no depth of satisfaction in materialism, in frightened conservatism, or in imitation "feelgood selfhelp" spirituality.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:50 PM

I too have heard that RC youth are far more conservative than I am (or ever was, for that matter). If they want the Tridentine Mass, fine -- but it's not for me because I've been there, I grew up with it, and it wasn't a spiritual experience but rather something to be endured.

Priest: Et introibo ad altare Dei.
Altar BOY: Ad Deum qui laetificate juventutum meum.

Muttered, with their backs to the congregation, who are busy praying the rosary or reading out of their missal. Or watching the rest of the congregation, checking out the girls in church, counting the flyspecks....

Thanks, no.

Joe, I'm very aware of those ladies you mention. And I agree with your assessments. I'd like to be around to see women and married priests.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 01:17 AM

I work very closely with women from four different religious orders, and I can't begin to tell you what strong, wonderful people these women are. They're also much happier in what they do, than many of the priests I know. It seems to me that they've found a way to do exactly what they want to be doing - serving people in need and loving it.

At Wellspring Women's Center in Sacramento, I currently work with two members of the Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Sister Jane and Sister Judy. They have been friends since 1961, when Jane entered the convent in the class behind Judy. They started out as high school teachers, but they have worked with the poor for many, many years. Sister Judy helped me pressure-wash the building, but she had to leave early because she and Jane were celebrating Liver Lovers' night. They stayed at the restaurant for three hours, ate liver and onions, and talked about stuff other than work. They seem to have a good time doing whatever they do (so do I, which may be why they like me). It's a joy to work with these women. The Women's Center is a constant reminder to me of what the Catholic Church can be and should be, and it keeps me going.

Now, I suppose some of you may question my hanging around with carnivorous nuns, but I really enjoy them. Maybe some other time, I'll tell you about the Sisters of Mercy and their lovely Irish brogues and deep spirituality; or the brash, crusty Sisters of Social Service - who work only with the poor. Or maybe I should tell you about impish Sister Mercedes of the Sisters of the Holy Family, who's 75 years old and one of the funniest people I know (and one of the wisest).

Women are the future of the Catholic Church, and it's time the men learn that. But these women I work with don't really want to be priests. They want to see the priesthood restructured, so that ministry is shared more generally among all the members of the Church instead of being closely held by an elite, ordained caste.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: GUEST,What !?we are you children
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 01:51 AM

Respectfuly.
dare I say,
Most of my generation of well educated free thinking
American/Euro/Asian Graduates
[and without being elitiist, self educated and otherwise well schooled young people]
Honestly regard your old religions as an entirely negative
hinderance at least,
and a shamefuly murderous pact with humanities most dark and evil nature
at worst.
Please, if every one of you who spends at least 5 minutes
of every waking day of your lives
defending the inticacies of your gods and sanctimonious books
against some other samewise religious
fervents gods and texts.
Please if you could just stop for a moment and think
how you coould use that time better in your
immediate communities,.
or worlldwide
to engage with other cultures,
living breathing humans just like us.
Please we are young and respect you old religious books.
But we are educated and wiser thsn previous generations.
We can taker responsibility to forge our own lives and futures.
We understand how hard it is for you to walk away from your
old religious texts.
But PLEASE for the sake owf all our futures.
Your children, us, our children, your grandchildren,
PLease. we beseach you.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: GUEST,What !?we are you children
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 02:50 AM

and even now as I reflect,
spelling is not myt strongest ability
when at my most heartfelt.
Please we are younger than you.
You were trusted with this planet since you weer
as young as us
and in soon time
it will be our turn.
Please leave us a gift of love
and not hate.
If a new born baby woke and grew today,
as mush as any yearning to undserstand
place and time and future and beyond.
I fearfully say..
your old religions would not ever enter into conciousness..

and that baby will still groww up strong and good
with love and mature guidance.
So PLEASE
I know iam only young
against all you thousanda of years old religios books.
ButPleas..
This is now a new 21st Century Age
of re enlightnment.
Pleases think again about your old religios books.
and apply your same strwength of love and devotio
to crafting a finer future
for us your childre and
grandchildrec.

PLEASE and thankyou mom

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 03:12 AM

Gee, I guess I have to watch what I say when the children are awake...

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: GUEST,Mr Turkeltaub
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 03:33 AM

Or perhaps Mr Offer,
could you consider the relevance of what our wide awake young people of today have to say to all of us aged and cynical jaded adults,
while we are slumbering and pompous in our steadfast fixed
positions of religious certainty.
I love my God as am sure you do.
But is that the best gift we can bequeath to future generations.
What Planet, may I ask, would you prefere to leave to your family ?
sincerely , Mr D. Turkeltaub

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:21 AM

Well, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm more a proponent of religious uncertainty - the ability to see the "grey areas" and to respect and listen to and learn from other perspectives.

Religious certainty gets us into trouble. An open, questioning mind and a desire to serve and respect others are what spirituality and religious faith should be about.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 09:10 AM

"Religious certainty gets us into trouble."

ANY certainty gets us into trouble:

"I'm certain the log will hold."
"I'm certain I can drive home even though I've drunk a case of beer."
"Oh, I'm sure I won't slide off the roof."
"Herr Hitler isn't as bad as you think, I'm certain of it."
"Certainly those blacks are inferior to whites!"
"I certainly wouldn't point a loaded gun at anyone!"
"Of COURSE the Pope is infallible in matters of faith and morals!"

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 09:36 AM

If you removed all the posts in this thread that indicate total certainty, I don't think there would be that many posts left. Aside from those from Joe Offer, naturally.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 12:40 PM

Joe. OK it is not a democracy. So, exactly how has the RC church soufght and used church congegration consensus to determine, or let's say change, its course, as opposed to decisions made solely by the RC hiarchy (including the Pope)?

For example, in the news article the RC representative statement that "The church does not feel authorized to change the will of its founder, Jesus Christ, Amato said in an interview prepared for Vatican Radio that was released to reporters. The reference is to Christ's having chosen only men as his Apostles.

Another example of the impact of consensus and power of the Pope is carried in this news article: "Like his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, he has consistently rebuffed calls to change traditional church teachings on divorce, abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage and the requirement that priests be male and celibate".

As to your comment:,,,as for other young people, the ones who should grow up to be "liberals," I'm not sure the current generation has much interest in spirituality.
"
I suspect it depends on ones personal opinion on what spirituality is?
Spitituality, in it's purist form, trancends the bounds of the RC and Christian churches, does it not?

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM

Not having married priests isn't and never has been a matter of "church teachings", but merely of general church policy. Like not having meat on a Friday - it could change tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Slag
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:26 PM

With regards to Guest: What!? we are you (sic) children: You are better educated than we Oldsters? You are wiser? At least we can string a coherent sentence together and use proper grammar.   Brrrr! I fear we are headed for a new "Dark Age".

I am not a Roman Catholic but although I have some very real doctrinal and theological differences with the Church at Rome, I still have a profound respect for the same. It was the RCC which preserved the Bible and much of history and knowledge during the time of the last Dark Ages. The struggles in Europe and the advance of human thought, the mistakes and corrections and evolution of humanity can also be accredited to the Church at Rome. When you consider that it was the RCC that, at times, was the ONLY cohesive force in the Western world we all owe a tremendous debt of thanks to the same.

Nothing is static. The RCC is a very conservative organization and evolves very slowly in its role. As such it has been a stabilizing force. It sees itself as the representative of an unchanging God and it's teachings and edicts as participating in that unchangeableness and infallibility. God may not change but human understanding does and as human understanding changes so eventually must the human aspect(s) of the RCC change. It may surprise some of you that celibacy has not always been a doctrine of the RCC. Many Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, etc. have had wives and children. They even conceded that the Earth moves about the Sun! Things change. The RCC changes.

Finally, as an exclusive organization, the RCC is free to have the form of government it chooses. It is free tho choose whatever works best for it. Some may argue the point but no one is born Catholic. It is a choice. Parents may decide to raise a child in the RCC and in RCC tradition but eventually that decision comes to the child as he or she comes of age. If you don't like the organization, get out of it or change it. If you are not a part of it then you really have no say and your opinion is just that, an opinion.

And to those stunning stellar lights of a most modern education? Get your money back. You were ripped off.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:21 PM

Slag,
Your final sentence is pretty heavy stuff. I submit that healthy discourse, regardless of ones religeous affiliation, has a useful place here and elsewhere in society...even within the RC church.

Taking your statement farther, it would follow that only those within a country (or those in power positions) have a right to discuss anything that goes on within that country. Luckily, people do care and many, including RC members and officials, take issue countries with poor records on basic human rights.

Islamic countries are criticised for excluding women from roles in society.   Luckily, the global community has moved beyond the approach you seem to put forward, and frequently promote equality of opportunity regardless of sex.

And quite often, change does occur...sometimes from the power of opinion.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Slag
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:28 PM

Ed T, please review my statement. The point was that SOME who opine only have an opinion based on who knows what? If they cannot write a coherent sentence then they are lacking in deucation, not in authority or accidents of birth. There is a huge difference between an opinion and a CONSIDERED opinion. YES dialog! YES debate! But first, one must know something of the subject and secondly, they must have some means of communicating the same.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:56 PM

OK
Now I understand:)

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 10:36 PM

Ed, the Pope and bishops are supposed to discern the position of the church (sensuum fidei) on the issues under discussion. Much as I might disagree, I think they have discerned correctly. These are the positions commonly held by Catholics at the present time.

You list the following issues: divorce, abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage and the requirement that priests be male and celibate

I don't think the position will change on abortion and euthanasia, and probably not on gay marriage. However, there has usually been a sense of compassion in dealing with these issues - a compassion that has no place in the hearts of the neoconservatives, I'm afraid. I read once about the unofficial Catholic "don't ask, don't tell" position on homosexuality - the neoconservatives have violated that one, too. They like to make issues of things that are none of their business.

I think that there will eventually be married and female priests, but not as soon as I hoped. And as far as I can discern, there is no real push for female or married priests among the faithful - those of us who favor those things to a significant degree, are still a minority. And as I have said above - none of these things find favor among Catholics in third world countries. I think the position on divorce and remarriage will be the first of these things to change. I had to get an annullment before I could get remarried, but it wasn't a terribly difficult process.

As for spirituality, which I would define simply as a deep relationship with God, I would wholeheartedly agree that it "transcends the bounds of the RC and Christian churches." If you study the mystics of the major religions, you find that they are all saying the same thing.

In its pure form, the essence of religious faith is far deeper than the political structure of a church and the accompanying issues. In many ways, I look on that structure as a "necessary evil." I do NOT look on that structure or its hierarchy or practices or doctrine as the central essence of my faith - although I do believe that all those other imperfect things are necessary.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Slag
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 01:14 AM

Joe, that has been a credo of mine for some time, to wit: I don't have a religion, I have a relationship!

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 07:01 AM

Joe:

Let's convert your statement to another aspect of life, government, to see if it makes sense (you be the judge:)... "I do not look on the structure, its hierarchy, or practices, or doctrine as the central essence of my government".

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 12:26 PM

It's true that that doesn't work, Ed, but it's because faith is a state of mind, and government is a structure. Apples and woodchucks.

try: I do not look on the structure, hierarchy, practices, or doctrine of my government as the central essence of my patriotism

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 02:50 PM

frogprince

There is faith, and I agree that it has been said to be a state of mind, trancending the logic we live with every day.

But, to the central part of the post topic, there is the governing body of the RC church, (as you say the structure), which is made up of people. Outside the faithm, there is the the structure, hierarchy, practices, and doctrine. Concern for these within the RC church have been seen in the pedophile priest scandal.While not impacting faith, the other aspects were badly bruised.

There are many cases in history, where patriotism was challenged by differing views on the structure, hierarchy, practices, or doctrine of a government. One well known examples to the west was the Vietnam war period.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: GUEST,O. Tom Stitel
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM

Has anybody considered what God wants?

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 04:38 PM

Tom Stitel,your answer is in the article:
"The church does not feel authorized to change the will of its founder, Jesus Christ, Amato said in an interview prepared for Vatican Radio that was released to reporters. The reference is to Christ's having chosen only men as his Apostles".

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 01:21 AM

Hi, Ed - You say:

Let's convert your statement to another aspect of life, government, to see if it makes sense (you be the judge:)... "I do not look on the structure, its hierarchy, or practices, or doctrine as the central essence of my government".

As Frogprince says, your analogy doesn't quite work. I had a student say much the same thing, and he got very angry at me when I said he just didn't get it. He had ben a Christian Scientist, and wanted to become a Catholic in a big hurry, 6 months before completing the one-year course of study. He was very impressed by the power and authority of Rome, and saw all pronouncements of the Pope as Absolute Truth. I told him that although the power and authority and doctrine had their place, they were not the essence of the faith - the essence of faith is a loving relationship with God, and all those other things are organizational matters - necessary and important, but not the central essence of faith. He didn't buy it, so I asked him what was the essence of America. Right off, he said the Constitution was the essence of America, and he didn't like how all those liberals were distorting the Constitution. I told him that while the Constitution was a necessary and wonderful thing, the essence of America is the land and the people and the culture. He couldn't accept that at all. Afterwards, he sent a very angry e-mail, threatening to sue me if I spoke against him and delayed his entry into the Catholic Church.

I was pleased to find on the Web that the very same week, Pope Benedict gave a sermon in Poland and said more-or-less the same thing I had said - that the essence of faith is the relationship with God, not the structure and authority of the Church.

Oh, the guy did get baptized ahead of schedule - but in the other parish in town. Within three months after his baptism, he was hired as head of religious education in that parish. About the same time, I was laid off from my job because my parish had budget problems. Oh, well.

---

As for Ed's quote above, "The church does not feel authorized..." Note the language - I would say that the words of the statement were quite carefully couched, so that the position could change. At no time, have the authorities in Rome stated incontrovertibly that the Catholic Church will never ordain women. They say "no," but they're careful not to make it a very strong "no."

I think that the "no" may change to a "maybe" any day now...or maybe in a hundred years.

And Tom, I think that's what the churches and all people try to do - to find the will of God in such matters. Sometimes, that can be quite hard to discern, especially when it comes to making unprecedented changes.

---

Oh, and Ed, one more thing about your first message in this thread:

Would Christ condone excommunicating woman wishing to be equal members in their christian (RC) faith?

The excommunication was for ordaining priests without having the authority to do so, not for women wishing to be equal. I believe the excommunication is not even for ordaining women - it's for ordaining without having the authority to ordain.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: GUEST,O. Tom Stitel
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 02:29 AM

How do you discern, because fashions change. Genuinely curious about how that happens in the Catholic church.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:15 AM

How do you discern the will of God? As an individual, you spend a good amount of time in prayer and honest introspection, helped along by study of Scripture and serious discussion with people you trust. The process is more-or-less the same for a Catholic parish, or for the entire Catholic Church. For major issues, the Catholic Church can take generations to make a decision, which is hopefully in accord with the will of God. The slow process does help make decisions that are less affected by fashion and trend.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 06:50 AM

Joe, I accept that many RC's have lifestyles that would not be condoned by the RC church. I also accept that the RC church does not root out folks not following its codes. I guess one could call this independance or freedom, or watever makes one personally comfortable. But, I suspect you know that ome others would not feel as comfortable with that.

I do understand personal faith, as I am a faithful Christian. While an interesting topic, that has been debated broadly, this is not the issue.

You have stated that women should build a consensus of support to change the RC church structure and refusal to allow women (I suspect, over half it's members) as priests. You state that change must be accepted by the broad RC community.

Yet you also state that the RC leadership flows from a caste of leaders ordained by hierarchical authority. This caste has been historically steadfast on it's position.

So, just how can such change occur in such an organization? What real opportunity is in place to seek RC views, and impact change in such a stucture, on consensus, as you suggest.

I appriciate your attempts at squeezing out hope for change in the quote form a RC representative. However, when it is clearly stated that the RC church hierarchicy cannot change God's will, I suggest changing that view is just wishful thinking.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: GUEST,O. Tom Stitel
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 07:40 AM

Joe, thanks for that. So that is how GOd's will is made manifest? Interesting.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 09:04 AM

I've just returned from the "most Catholic of countries," the Republic of Ireland.

Vocations there are down, way way down. So much so that Ireland now has priests from Africa in some parishes.

Church attendance by the "young" is also down.

This was brought on by the Irish church itself, by pedophilia and the Magdalene laundries and the Bishop of Galway and the rest of it (as far as I can see).

But the basic religious tenets of the Church there, and the beliefs of the people, have not changed. And the hierarchy IS doing a heroic job of changing generations of "the way it is."

This is not to introduce a discussion of the abuses (I'm still trying to sort that out for myself and I bought several books there about it) but simply to point out that the RC church in the US is not alone in reinventing itself yet again.

As I've said before, most Catholics don't let their church get in the way of their religion.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: GUEST,Ed t
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:16 PM

What is seen in Ireland is also seen in many other western countries, where the RC ruled with an iron grip in every life aspect. Another causality is youth church attendance Quebec, which was mostly RC.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 02:30 AM

Ed, I suppose that the main reason I belong to the the Catholic Church is the Mass and the sacraments, which are the essential aspect of the Catholic faith. However, other important reasons are its worldwide union and its history, imperfect though that union and history may be. And I have to say that it is the institutional church, with all its flaws, that has provided the Mass and sacraments; and the faith would have no union or history if it weren't for the institutional church.

You say that many Roman Catholics "have lifestyles that would not be condoned by the RC church." Well, I dunno. I think the church is a lot more tolerant than some belive it to be, just as I think that the thinking and faith of the church is a lot broader than people think. It's the loudmouthed, self-righteous fundamentalists who want to draw the lines so tightly - and to my mind, it's THEY who don't understand what their religion is all about.

As for your questioning whether change can ever take place, given the fact that leadership flows from a caste of leaders - well, Ed, all I can say is that the change takes place by evolution, not by majority vote or by authority structure. The leadership of the Catholic Church has never been very good at affecting change - or at resticting it. The Catholic Church changes when a "critical mass," a "tipping point" is reached. A change can happen very fast when something happens to make it credible. But if people try to force change within the Catholic Church, it doesn't happen. You're looking for an authority structure to affect change, and I'm saying things just don't work that way - for the most part, the Catholic Church evolves. Of course, I think pretty much the same of the United States - despite the best efforts of our politicians and business leaders, most changes in the U.S. come about by evolution.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 09:38 AM

...the Mass and the sacraments, which are the essential aspect of the Catholic faith.

Joe, that's not the way I learned it.

I was taught that under certain circumstances anyone can baptize and that someone can even baptize themself (baptism of desire). That anyone can pray and help the sick and dying. That a man and woman marry each other and the priest is only there to bless the marriage. That there are several ways in which sin can be forgiven (e.g., a perfect act of contrition, verbalized or not). That within certain very restricted circumstances anyone can consecrate bread and wine (note the specificity of the words used). And so on, the only exception being ordination to the priesthood and confirmation -- and those authorities can be delegated.

Then again I'm one of them "Children of Vat2" so I'm kinda warped, I guess.

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 02:59 PM

Well, Rapaire, in very unusual circumstances (and from a very legalistic perspective), your exceptions may apply - but the ordinary and usual source of the Mass and Sacraments is the Church - and in general, the sacraments do not have full meaning outside the contact of an organized church.

Now, you'll find more-or-less the same sacraments in the Orthodox, Lutheran, and Anglican churches. The Roman church recognizes the validity of all the sacraments in the Eastern Orthodox churches, and gives some level of recognition to the sacraments of Lutherans and Anglicans - and full recognition of almost all marriages and baptisms, no matter who performs them. But for most Catholics, they go to the Catholic Church for the Mass and Sacraments.

There's some saying about not basing policy on exceptions and loopholes. The exceptions and aberrations are there; but for the main part, people go to church to get sacraments.

---

OK, now allow me to address a comment from Slag. Slag says:

in more distant time the member who did not toe the RCC line was likely to wind up dead or under house arrest. It seemed whenever a doctrinal point of view was adopted, THAT WAS IT! Heresy was a friable matter. And Yes! It was not limited to The RCC. The Break-offs and Protestants, while ducking the Inquisition were busy burning and hanging their members who did not toe THEIR line.

I realize that if I disagree, I am treading into dangerous waters here; but I wonder if the Conventional Wisdom is correct about this. Certainly, there has always been oppression throughout the history of the Catholic Church, but I wonder how widespread that oppression was; and how the majority of people experienced the Church. I do not mean to downplay or ignore the significance of injustice, and I do think there is a need to fight injustice wherever it is found. However, I have found that when I have gone into places that are generally thought to be dangerous and oppressive, that there is still much goodness and joy. I think the same could have been true in the Catholic Church of the time before Vatican II. While there were (and still are) many stern and severe elements in the structure of the Catholic Church, I have the impression that for most people, there was joy and celebration and a warm, supportive community to be found in the neighborhood parish church.

But historians don't write about neighborhoods and normal people. They write about authority structures and the People in Charge and all that stuff that is often so far removed from normal life. All that stuff has an effect on us normal people, but I wonder how pervasive that effect is. I am deeply affected by the people I encounter on a daily or weekly basis, but not all that much by the peple I only read about in the newspaper.

Oh, and as for the original topic of discussion here - the refusal of the Catholic Church to ordain women. Although I travel in circles that favor ordination of women and married people, I don't think that there is a widespread feeling among women in the Cahtolic Church that they are being oppressed. Very few Catholic men seek ordination, and even fewer Catholic women are interested in becoming priests. More and more, the functions of priests are being carried out by lay employees - and the vast majority of those employees are women. I was employed by my Catholic parish for a year in 2005-2006, at a time when we had no pastor and were served by two young, foreign-born priests. Other than the priests, I was the only male member of the pastoral staff, which was ruled by a very stern woman. Even the priests felt oppressed by this woman. We finally got a pastor in the middle of 2006; and he put this woman in a bookkeeping position where she couldn't do much harm, so now everyone is much happier.

One reason we were without a pastor for a year, was that our parish has a reputation for being a hotbed of conservatism. I understand that during a ten-year period in the 1990's and the early part of this decade, we went through forty priests. When we went through the process of getting our current pastor, one priest on the personnel counsel told me, "You're killing your priests." And it's true. at least three of those forty priests left for treatment of alcoholism, and others left for other problems; and one former pastor retired early and died within a year (and he told me he was retiring because he couldn't take the right-wing badgering). There was a small group of right-wing extremists who sent a steady flow of complaint letters to the bishop, and did their best to keep the priests miserable. During my year of employment, I was the subject of several of those letters and a good number of phone calls; and I had to appear at one official inquiry. I was laid off for financial reasons, but I have a feeling that part of the reason I was let go, was because my reputation was sullied by that stream of complaints. And most of those complainers were women - stern, severe, unhappy women.

Our parish was unusual because it was one parish with three churches. When we built a new church, the complainers wouldn't let the diocese tear down the old building. Eventually, the parish polarized, and most of the conservatives went to the old church, and the middle-of-the-roaders to the new place (the third church is a mission, twenty miles away). I don't particularly like our bishop, but I have to say he did a very wise thing when he divided the parish in 2006 and appointed a neurotic ultra-conservative pastor to the old church. After about a year, almost all of the right-wingers moved to the old parish, and things have become quite peaceful for us in the new parish. It's a very rich, joyful place to be. Lately, I've noticed that even conservatives are moving to our parish, because they can't tolerate the meanness of the pastor and the small group of ultra-conservatives.

But five years ago, our entire parish had a very oppressive atmosphere - and it was especially oppressive for priests and other male employees.


My point is that although there has always been many oppression in parts of the Catholic church, most things happen on a parish level - and parishes can often be very good, nurturing communities. So, don't be too quick to paste an overall label on the current or past Catholic Church as "oppressive."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 03:36 PM

Joe,

Man who waits for roast duck to fly into mouth must wait very, very long time. Chinese proverb

   
An old error has more friends than a new truth.
Danish Proverb


They always say time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself. Andy Warhol

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:05 PM

That's true, Ed -
And there is a lot being done to promote the cause of reform of the priesthood and the ordination of women, and I have been active in organizations that promote these causes for a long time. But in the meantime, on a day-to-day basis, life goes on.

And life in the Catholic Church for me, has been quite good - in spite of the shortcomings. The struggle for change has also been good. If we didn't have wrongs to right, life might be rather boring.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:14 PM

Gee, Joe. We have three chapels (former parishes) making up our parish, on Newman Center, and our three priests also serve five other towns (one of them lives in one of the towns). We're nearly half way to our goal of being able to build a new single church for the Catholic Community. Our three priests serve an area of about 800 square miles.

You betcha that the laity, and especially the women, are stepping up to the plate for their turn at bat!

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:56 PM

Joe:
Chinese proverbs

There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but the view is always the same.

No wind, no waves


The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today.


The older the ginger, the more it bites.


You can't expect both ends of a sugar cane to be as sweet.


Many a little makes a mickle

:)

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 08:53 PM

Ed, we have pious sayings somewhat like that in the Catholic Church - they are known by the unfortunate name of "ejaculations."

I was almost twenty by the time I learned a non-religious meaning for that word.
What can I say????

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 09:22 PM

Possibly pius sayings exist behind the scenes in the RC church. My recollection is, as a RC youth, that they were much more boring, and less to the point. But, then, I was never in the local "inner RC circle", as your seemed to have been near... at one point or another.

Hopefully the RC term did not originate from some of the less pius pp priests.

Asto what you can say, I would never attempt to put a limit on your right to express yourself, Joe. I trust you strive for the same:)

Subject: RE: Women and church crime
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 01:14 PM

I love the Sister Fidelma series by Peter Tremayne(pseudonym of Celtic scholar and author, Peter Beresford Ellis.) He is meticulous about his research and, even though the books are fiction, he sticks to complete accuracy in how he presents the laws and culture of her time. In reading some from The Sister Fidelma website, I found the following of interest in comments from the author about the historical accuracy:

When Brigid established her community of Kildare (Cill-Dara - the church of the oaks) she invited a bishop named Conlaed to join her. Her first biography, completed fifty years after her death, in AD 650 during Fidelma's lifetime, was written by a monk of Kildare named Cogitosus, who makes it clear that it continue to be a mixed community in his day.

It should also be pointed out that, demonstrating women's coequal role with men, women were priests of the Celtic Church in this period. Brigid herself was ordained a bishop by Patrick's nephew, Mel, and her case was not unique. Rome actually wrote a protest, in the sixth century, at the Celtic practice of allowing women to celebrate the divine sacrifice of Mass.

The following also was of great interest to me:

By the fifth century, Rome had forbidden its clerics from the rank of abbot and bishop to sleep with their wives and, shortly after, even to marry at all. The general clergy were discouraged from marrying by Rome but not forbidden to do so. Indeed, it was not until the reforming papacy of Leo IX (AD 1049-1054) that a serious attempt was made to force the Western clergy to accept universal celibacy. In fact, Leo went so far as to order that wives of priests should be sent as slaves to the Lateran palace, then the papal centre, while Urban II, in 1189, ordered that wives of priests could be seized as slaves by members of the nobility. Many wives of the clergy were driven to suicide by these rulings. The bulk of the religious of the Celtic Church took centuries to give up their anti-celibacy attitudes and fall into line with Rome. However, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, priests below the rank of abbot and bishop have retained their right to marry until this day.