Accents in Folk Music

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:57 AM

For me, the singing of (folk) songs is a matter of trust. For the duration of the song an audience will be asked to listen while the singer communicate a bundle of emotions, ideas, experiences... whatever. In order for the song to work (to my satisfaction) they are asked to believe what the singer is singing/saying, or, at the very least, believe that the singer believes it. If the song is beyond logical acceptance, the listener should be able to suspend their belief for its duration, otherwise it becomes an exercise in technique. Personally, I can't see how this can happen if the language the singer uses is far removed from the way he or she normally speaks, often so far as to sound ridiculous.
I wonder how Americans feel about British singers putting on mock-Southern accents, or East Anglians when somebody from the Smoke does their ooo-aar bit, or an Abedonian listening to a Brummie trying to sound as if he had just come in straight from the bothy.
I can remember my own feelings in the sixties when we Liverpudlians were treated to songs by 'scousers' hailing from anywhere from Scapa Flow to the Isle of Wight - somewhat amused, to say the least. Here in Ireland the practice is occasionally referred to as 'Gobshite Oirish'.
Years ago we became involved (slightly) in the storytelling scene, when we took a few of the traditional storytellers we were recording around to some of the sessions. The contrast between, say Londoners desperately trying to sound as if they had osmosised their stories beside a smouldering turf fire while sitting on their shawl-clad mammie's laps, and Traveller Mikeen McCarthy quietly telling his fantastic tales in his natural Kerry accent, was stunning.
The one bright spark among the revival storytellers was a young West Indian man who told tales from all over the world in his own rich way of speaking.
For me the storytelling movement eventually foundered on the rocks of its own tweeness, and accent played a major part in that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:33 AM

"For me the storytelling movement eventually foundered on the rocks of its own tweeness [...]"

Ah, "The Rocks o' Tweeness" --- now there's a fine title for a ballad! To be sung only in a phony Scottish accent.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I've been lurking here for awhile but haven't posted before. I've read this thread and the one about Peggy Seeger with great interest, but hadn't yet felt called upon to contribute my two cents, although it's an issue that affects me, as it affects anyone else who love folksongs and ballads and is not a master of all of the world's many languages and accents.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:48 AM

I've actually got a real problem, not with 'foreign' accents, but with my 'native' East Riding accent. For a couple of years I've been writing a series of songs interlinked with stories, all based around East Yorkshire. Having lived for a large part of my adult life outside the area, all over England and abroad, my own accent is a bit of a mishmash. What's more, I can't find anyone who now speaks the 'real' East Riding who could teach it to me (and would anyone be able to understand it anyway?). Also, should I try to recreate the accent in the written word as well as attempting to perform it in the true speech?

An extra problem arises when I come to Hull, where one branch of my family stems from – this has an accent all its own.

There's a lot of Yorkshire dialect stuff around in West Riding and south Yorkshire dialects, but I can't find much in East Riding dialect – I haven't even heard Jim Eldon do anything in the old wolds speech.

So, what I've decided is that, because accents and speech change dramatically over time, and the scope of my piece goes from pre-history to the present day, I'll use a modern-day East Riding accent, or as close to it as I can come. There has to be compromise somewhere along the road.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:15 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: "I wonder how Americans feel about British singers putting on mock-Southern accents"

Well, I think it's a bit silly, but no more than if I would do it myself. (I'm an American living in Germany.) I do really loathe "phony voice singing", when singers habitually affect an accent or a set of mannerisms. However, what is one supposed to do when singing a traditional ballad that was collected in a regional accent? I really prefer such versions to the smoothed-over arrangements.

So, no ultimate answer from me, I'm afraid.

The choice seems to be sing it wrong or don't sing it at all. For most people, it's not really practicable to learn to "do" accents. Some actors can, but I doubt whether this approach is appropriate for singers (just my opinion).

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Grab
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:43 AM

Aye Guest, I am, as a Lancashire lad. It's a short "oo", whether you transcribe it as "loov" or "luv". The trouble is that the "u" in "luv" would pronounced differently dahn Sarf, which is why the old mid-Lancashire greeting "eh-up chuck" is sometimes written as "chook" by people trying to convey how that person talks. (For that matter, I don't know if anyone's got a formal spelling of "eh-up" - is it "eyup" or "eyoop"? :-)

That's part of the problem - how to discuss this. We're trying to convey accents with letters, but everyone from every different region has a different idea of how to pronounce that letter or combination of letters!

Graham.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:50 AM

Speaking as a transplanted ex-Southerner, 'phonetic' spellings like "loov" and "chook" irritate me enormously - there's nothing weird or non-standard about the Northern 'u'. Ask 'em dahn at the old Booll and Boosh - that'll proov it...

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:54 AM

Aye, Graham, it's enough ter mek yer chook oop.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:40 AM

I see no problem whatever with attempting to Anglicise, say Scots or Irish songs into the way you speak. It doesn't always work; on occasion the language is woven so intrinsically into the song that it becomes debased if you try to alter it, but it's certainly worth a try. If the song 'fits into your mouth comfortably' and if it works for you, it is quite likely it will work for an audience.
Traditional singers tend(ed) to sing as they spoke, taking their breaths with the punctuation - 'telling' the song, as they say in Irish.
One of the exercises we did in the Critics group was to first tell the story of the song in your own words, then speak the text as if you were telling the story. It can also help while working on a song, to move from singing to speech to resolve awkward passages. It quite often solved many of the textual problems of the song.
Making the song ring true for the singer was always the objective.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:16 AM

Jim Carroll wrote:
"One of the exercises we did in the Critics group was to first tell the story of the song in your own words, then speak the text as if you were telling the story. [...]"

That sounds like a good way of doing it.

I've been interested in folksongs for a long time and my parents had records of various folk-style singers. One problem I had was what to _do_ with the songs. I play the guitar reasonably well but I have a rubbish voice and couldn't have a career as a folksinger or folk-style singer, even if I wanted to. In my opinion, a good voice makes up for a multitude of sins.

For some strange reason, in the last couple of years I've written many, many song parodies, quite a few of folksongs and ballads, most of which are connected with the obscure British radio drama "The Archers", which some of the British people here may have heard of. That may not be a particularly good answer of what to do with folksongs, but it is one I've found.

The connection to the topic of accents is that it seems somehow "okay" to make a stab at an accent for comic effect. For example, it would normally be fairly ridiculous of me to sing "John Henry" but singing a parody doesn't seem so. Comedy either gets a laugh or it doesn't. However, it would make me very happy if someone read my parody and discovered an interest in the real thing.

I do actually sing "straight" versions of nearly all of the songs that I've parodied. One of these days I want to try to get a PC and a webcam that I can use to make a video and I'll post some things on YouTube, rubbish voice or no.

Here's a link to one thread with parodies, in case anyone's interested. If one listens to "The Archers", one might find it amusing. If one doesn't, one won't understand it at all.

Child-ish Ballads
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbarchers/F2693941?thread=3691636

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: melodeonboy
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:20 AM

"I see no problem whatever with attempting to Anglicise, say Scots or Irish songs into the way you speak."

Indeed, Jim. Some years ago, I was asked by a Scottish bloke to perform "She Moved Through The Fair" with him. So horrified was he by the way that I sang it - in my normal Kent accent - that he refused to play with me ever again. I did, however, find that I really enjoyed singing it, and have continued to do so up to this day, still in my own accent, of course. And do you know, it always goes down well, and I've had no complaints from Scots either!

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:32 AM

It always seems to me that if so much of your attention is concentrated on the correctness of pronunciation then you are missing the point of singing somewhat.

This seems doubly so in a folk or traditional context where you are unlikely ever to here the colour and nuances of the song as originally sung because accents and manners of speaking are constantly evolving and moving on. Every singer adsdds their own colour and touch every time they sing.

I sing songs as they affect me. Sometimes the message of the words is the most important thing and I focus on that. Sometimes the words are trivial and the sound is more important. Either way up singing to a policy is a bit soulless. I speak with my own accent, forged by my time in Glasgow, its environs, in London, in the West Midlands and by the contact I have had with people from all over the world. It is still recognizably Scottish but not exactly the same as anyone else. To suggest that there is a correct way for you to read out my writing here would be nonsense. Those of you who know me may be able to hear my voice in the occasional word or phrase.

Equally important when I speak, or sing to people it is to communicate to them. When I moved from Glasgow to London I found that I had to change how I spoke so that people understood me. Burns wrote in very different voices depending on his intended audience. When I sing "My love is like a red red rose" it is not in the English of upper class 18th century Edinburgh or in the rough Laland Scots of rural Ayrshire or Dumfries but I hope that my singing tells the listener something about the song and of my history in getting to the point where I am singing it.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:32 AM

Presumably references to "American" accents relate to USAian and Canadian, ie North American accents. Central and South American accents are mainly Castillano and Portuguese!

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: GUEST,Offkey in Portland
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 01:49 PM

"It's impossible to imagine singing 'the wee lass on the the brae' without a hint of Scots inflection. Substituting the words for standard English would just be surreal. That way lies madness"

And have you ever heard "you are nothing but a hound dog, crying all the time. You have never caught a rabbit and you are no friend of mine"?

Seriously,I sing a lot of Australian songs which I have picked up travelling in Australia. I don't sing in any accent but my own, but sometimes a word or two seems to just come out "that way", I assume from learning the song from a cd rather than a book. On the other hand, I don't know any way to sing some Scottish or Irish songs without some accent as the dialect is built in, I'm thinking of McPherson's Lament.

Closer to (my) home, I don't have any hesitation to sing a southern Appalachian song in regional accent; that just is part of the song. I have travelled to a couple of family reunions (my wife's family) in Tennessee, and I have noted that I pick up spoken accents, or at least that one, very readily, and that is kind of embarrasing and feels like I might be seen as parodying the local accent.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 01:52 PM

There is a difficult problem here to solve, BUT, there is absolutely nothing wrong in changing the words/dialect/pronunciation of a song into one's natural brogue. Apart from which the vast majority of traditional songs in English occur in multiple versions in almost every part of the English-speaking world so another answer is to get off one's bum and seek out a local version. In a free country like ours we are all at liberty to do what the hell we like with the songs. The audience response should be the yardstick to how successful we are.

And another way of looking at it. I sing some songs from my own area that are strongly laced with dialect, quite unlike the way I speak. The way I look at this is I am helping to preserve/promote a dying way of speech which is disappearing under the dominant city dialects and the rapid spread of SE influenced by mass media.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:49 PM

melodeonboy:
"I've had no complaints from Scots either!'
Should bloody well think not - 'She Moved Through the Fair' is Irish.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Tootler
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:58 PM

I have a Scots mother and and English father, and though my earliest years were spent in Scotland, my father's career (RAF) involved us in regular moves. As a result my accent is a bit of a mish mash, though it is generally Northern English tending to Yorkshire - if that makes sense.

I sing a number of Scots songs and I sing what I feel is right. Sometimes that involves anglicizing words, sometimes I try to keep the Scots form. If that sounds affected, so be it. I tend to concentrate on trying to ensure I pronounce the words clearly so that their meaning comes over. That to me is what is really important.

When I deliberately attempt a Scots accent my daughter tells me it's abominable. On the other hand a friend once correctly identified me as coming originally from Aberdeen, so make what you will of that!

Geoff

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: melodeonboy
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:43 AM

"Should bloody well think not - 'She Moved Through the Fair' is Irish."

Apologies, Jim. Many people have told me it's Irish and many have told me it's Scottish! The first version of it that I ever heard was by Alan Stivell, who is, as we know, neither Scottish nor Irish, and he claimed that it was Scottish! A quick trawl of the internet confirms that it is in fact Irish. What's a poor Englishman like me to make of it all?

(By the way, I've had no complaints from Irish people either!)

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:54 AM

Melodeonboy:
"What's a poor Englishman like me to make of it all?"
The same as a poor Englishman living in Ireland, I suppose.
Good luck,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:03 AM

As Sherlock Holmes used to say, "These are deep waters, Watson." It seems there is no way to sing a song that doesn't 'belong' to you without offending somebody. Attempt a facsimile of the 'authentic' version, and you will be accused of insulting the tradition. Try to do it in your own way, and you will be accused of corrupting the tradition.

But these are wonderful songs, which deserve to be much better known than they are. And on many occasions where singing them would be appropriate, there is nobody present who is 'qualified' to deliver them. So what should we do? Shut up – or make the best job of it we can for ourselves?

This issue is not unique to the world of folk song. Many American actors – Orson Welles, for example - have produced excellent interpretations of the greatest Shakespearean roles without adopting fake English accents. Nevertheless, their delivery of the lines has an English inflection, arising from the rhythms of the text itself. There is a similar process of accommodation between singer and song whenever the two come from different cultures.

Sometimes the result is not entirely satisfactory.   But if a performer succeeds in conveying the essence of the text to the audience – by whatever means - then questions of authenticity can be set aside for pedants to quibble over at their leisure. The relationship between the song and the audience is far more important than the dialogue between the singer and the critic.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:21 AM

As an actor and occassional storyteller I find I sometimes have to inflect or put-on an accent. Singing a song is often done in the same vein. With some songs it would sound grating to be pronouncing a 'dialect' word in another accent and could spoil the reception. That doesn't mean you have to put on a whole accent where an inflection would do.

For example, a song like Anachee Gordon rhymes 'me' with 'dee'(do) and would sound absolutely bizarre if sung in, for example in a Black Country accent. With something like Burns, the rhyme may rly on a Scots pronunciation of a word which would be different from another reading (as has been discussed).

Personally, as a Scots/Geordie half-breed (born and brought up in the Midlands) who has travelled a bit, I often find my accent slipping into another when I speak to a person from, or even discuss topics relating to, a particular region. So if it happens that I sing songs with an inflection if it relates to a character of the narrator.

Funnily enough, I don't tend to sing songs like Black Velvet Band or songs from the former colonies (US, Australia... hee hee)with much, if any inflection. I don't know if this is because the (imaginary) narrator might well have been without an American or Australian accent themselves.

Regarding Blues, I wonder if it because many of the lyrics don't involve regional pronuciation that allows a singer the possibility of keeping their own accent.

If anyone ever wonders about singers toning down their accents, a quick blast of Juliet Turner will solve that one. Broad, unapologetic and all the better for it!

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 10:54 AM

"A quick trawl of the internet confirms that it is in fact Irish."

I think you'll find that Jim Carroll knows the subject about as well as any sources you're likely to find in a 'quick trawl' of the internet ...

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Grab
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:21 PM

Thanks Phil. I couldn't think offhand of words using the right version of "u" which everyone would pronounce roughly the same, hence the rather approximate attempt at a phonetic version.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:51 PM

Trevek
"I find I sometimes have to inflect or put-on an accent."
Don't want to challenge your statement in any way, but can you tell me why?

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 03:04 PM

Certainly Jim. As an actor or storyteller I use an accent to create a character (I'm not too bad at several accents)and sometimes the script calls for it.

Sometimes when I'm singing a particular song the character of the narrator, or perhaps the nature of the song, sometimes gets me thinking of, for example, Scotland or Tyneside and I might slip into accent without thinking about it (my mother's a Geordie and Dad was Scottish). I used to have a habit of picking up accents if I was around someone with a strong one, so sometimes some stimuli (even something like talking about a place) can make the accent slip without me meaning to (very funny for those around if I'm on the phone, or something).

I don't do full-on imitations of accents when singing unless it is some kind of comic or music-hall song.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: trevek
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 03:36 PM

as a footnote, sometimes I learn songs from other singers or from recordings and pick up their quirks, pronunciations etc. I recently tried to remember a couple of Billy Fury songs I'd learned over 25 years before (and hadn't sung for at least tn) and found I still used his vocal techniques.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:51 PM

As a performer there are simply occasions, as trevek says, when adopting a 'foreign' accent is appropriate. As a teacher of English for many years I had to read to and with pupils. One favourite book of both pupils and teachers was Robert Westall's 'The Machine Gunners'
set in WWII Geordieland. It contains lots of great Geordie dialogue and a smattering of Glaswegian. Having watched an accompanying video many times the accents were easily imitable, and so to make the reading more enjoyable and more realistic I adopted the appropriate accents. After the initial shock/giggling had died down and the pupils got used to it I encouraged some of them to attempt the accents as well and some of them became quite good at it.

Also many of my friends are Geordies and I spent a lot of time up there in the Holy Land. I picked up a lot of the local music hall songs, Blaydon Races, Cushie Butterfield, Lambton Worm, Keep yor feet Still, simply so I could join in. My best mate was a great concertina player but couldn't sing a note, so if the two of us were out in the pubs I would do all the singing. I even ended up learning some Northumbrian ballads just to please him. Needless to say I used the local accent and I don't ever remember any of the locals complaining.

Having said that, although I know a lot of the muckle sangs I would never sing any of the Scots ones in public. The only Child ballads I sing I sing in SE, unless you count that remnant of The Elfin Knight 'Acre o' Land' which is sung all over the East Riding and has its own dialect versions.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Tootler
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM

Trevek,

I know what you mean when you say "I might slip into accent without thinking about it". I find myself doing the same thing sometimes. Partly because of where my parents came from - Mother from Aberdeen, Father from North Yorkshire - and partly because we moved around a lot during my childhood, so I encountered a range of accents. Sometimes I have to watch myself in case the listener thought I was taking the mickey. Not so much these days because I have been settled on Teesside for the past 30 years so how I speak has settle down much more.

My daughter told me an amusing story recently. She is teaching in South London and had occasion to tell a boy off. She finished off with something like "... and you can stop taking the mickey out of my accent as well!". To which the boy replied "But miss, this is how I normally speak. I come from Middlesbrough and we have just moved here". No answer to that one!

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:32 PM

Phrases like "slip into the accent" really piss me off. You may have some sounds that you assosciate with a context but it is no more than that. We each have our own individual accents and a memory bank of others, more often than not erroneous stereotypes.

When most people sing or speak they try and establish points of cotact with what they are trying to communicate. Sometimes these are particular sounds but "slipping into" one accent or another is always bogus

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Rowan
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:29 PM

Sometimes these are particular sounds but "slipping into" one accent or another is always bogus

Robbie, part of the reason for my earlier post was to explain how such things may happen without being conscious of it, a point reiterated by others in recent postings. When the accent is deliberately accentuated, you might be, sometimes, correct in your assertion that it is always bogus but even then, character actors and those doing multiple voices in audio books have a legitimate reason to accentuate the accent, if you'll pardon the tautology.

Lest this be regarded as not relevant to folk music there are many occasions when a singer is so seriously 'in character' that the accentuation is imposed by either the construction of the text and its rhythms, or the singer's understanding of the context and meanings in the song. Or both. In such circumstances you could regard the singer as "in control", if you are a dyed-in-the-wool rationalist or "under the influence" of the song if you're one who allows emotions to carry weight; in either case always bogus is a descriptor that is a trifle limited in scope and limiting in intent.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 02:53 AM

I find the subject of 'adopted' accents a somewhat problematical one, both in singing and storytelling.
Our excursion into the storytelling revival left us with the distinct impression of 'poor actors' trying very hard - and failing miserably.
It seems to me that the best way to make a song/story work 'convincingly' is to sing/tell it in your own natural voice with your own natural accent.
I recall the hours of pleasure I have got from listening to the magnificent Alec Stewart, live and on recordings, telling his 'Jack Tales', using his own, flat, laconic delivery.
For me that 'naturalness' is an indication that the song/story is working for the singer/storyteller, which is the greatest part of the battle in making it work for the audience. It is something I find almost universal in recordings of 'source singers', even when their physical abilities may have reduced, It is a quality quite often missing in revival performers.
It is possible, with a great deal of practice, to master 'foreign' accents, but I find it very hard to think of en example where that would be necessary in the singing of folk songs - music hall maybe, but that's different.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 02:55 AM

Hmmm... Is bogus always necessarily bad? The entire British folk revival is on some levels bogus. After all, very few of the guests or floorsingers are the horny handed sons and daughters of toil these songs were often collected from. A urban civil servant slipping into a 'folk voice' when singing about, say, 19th century rural matters, is only moving a lttle further down a path he or she was already travelling on when they made the decision to sing the song. In that sense, we're all actors, all entertainers, all roleplaying.

Of course, none of the above is in any way compulsory.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: trevek
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:03 AM

"Phrases like "slip into the accent" really piss me off."

Robbie, sorry it offends you but I can't really think of a better terminology.

My us of "slip into" is because it is not something I intentionally do. I might sometimes be in conversation with someone and later somebody else points out that I was speaking with a different accent, which I hadn't been aware of.

Having been brought up in Shropshire I was exposed to yamyams of Wolverhampton. I never had such an accent but when I speak to someone from there I find I can't stop doing it for a while afterwards... and I certainly don't do it on purpose.

It's also a point to note that we often imitate (consciously or not) sounds around us and find ourselves picking up accents through interaction. many of my English language students here in Poland learn English from Polish speakers and have a Polish accent, others might learn from Americans and have an American one... then they go to Ireland and come back with an Irish one. But I don't know if they keep that accent when they speak Polish.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:09 AM

Jim,could you explain why you think is music hall is different.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:03 AM

Oh no.........!!!
Have just put up an opinion on the 'Folk vs Folk' site, where it will, I have no doubt, be battled out to the bitter end.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 06:07 AM

the song Tottie.
is this a music hall song or a traditional song,and if so should it be sung differently ,because its one or the other.
I feel it is most convincing when sung in a london accent,regardless of whether it is traditional or music hall.
however a good singer could probably still bring the song to life,with a different accent,if it was his natural accent,a very broad Scottish accent probably wouldnt work,but a West Indian accent might.
Why?because Scottish accents we still associate with Scotland,but there are now[Since 1950 immigration from the WEST INDIES] West Indian london accents.In fact virtually any london accent[Tottenham,Lewisham,Shepherds bush, Edgware,none of whom are true cockneys]Would be acceptable,even estuary Southend.
should geordie songs be sung in a wearside accent,well if the singer can put the song over convincingly and is enjoying the song the answer must be yes.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: GUEST,facetime
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 11:43 AM

I always shudder when I hear Americans do "Greenface" and attempt to sound Irish. Or for that matter, anybody doing "Hickface", when singing country songs. That said, "identity" and "authenticity" are pretty slippery subjects here in this complicated, multi-cultured world.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

Cap'n
"the song Tottie"
I think it's probably music hall.
There's no 'should' or 'shouldn't', it's up to the singer to decide how (or whether) to sing it. On the other hand, it's up to the listener to decide whether it works for them.
I've only ever heard a Londoner sing it - and it worked. A Mancunian or Liverpudlian would probably make an almighty hames of it. The text is totally structured for somebody with a London accent.
For me, the accent that works is the singers own.
Ewan's lad:
"Is bogus always necessarily bad?"
Absolutely. It is the ability of folk song to transcend time and distance that makes it unique; that's why the songs have lasted for centuries and transplanted themselves wherever the language is spoken.
While the settings of the songs may be alien, and the situations, beyond our personal experience, the basic emotions expressed are universal and timeless.
You don't have to be a 19th century poacher to imagine what it would feel like to be forced to leave your native home and live on the other side of the world - ask any Irishman who has had to emigrate because of shortage of work back home.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: GUEST,Mademoiselle Nobs
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 12:26 PM

I prefer to leave accents to music hall turns and the characters in Aardman Animations films

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: meself
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 12:56 PM

I have heretofore avoided expressing my views in any of these 'accents' discussions (I think), for the reasons I gave in my initial post to this thread. However ... as a singer, I take inspiration from the Canadian field recordings made by Helen Creighton, Edith Fowke, et al, in which, although there are vast numbers of songs of Old Country and (less often) American origin and/or setting, you never hear a singer use anything other than his/her native accent. The result is the effect that the singers really 'own' their songs, in the sense that they have 'made them their own'. Listen to any of the appropriate samples from the Helen Creighton collection to get what I'm talking about.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

Meself,
The 'borrowing' from Fowke and Creighton was very much a two-way trip. A.L.Lloyd had a few songs from Canada and N.S. in his repertoire, which he coyly never mentioned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: meself
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 03:51 PM

I suppose that's the point at which 'making a song your own' gets a little problematic ... It is interesting though, in light of this discussion, that Lloyd would take that route rather than, for example, dressing up like a lumberjack and putting on a Canadian accent to sing a Canadian song (shades of Monty Python).

(Apologies to those who've had to wear leiderhausen or cowboy hats for the sake of a lucrative gig ... )

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:39 PM

By way of further response to Robbie's
>"slipping into" one accent or another is always bogus:

what about the two recordings of Cecilia Costello singing The Grey Cock, one in the accent of where she lived and one in the accent with which her father had sung it?

Richard

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:52 PM

Not sure that's too great a problem Richard.
Some people grow up with 'dual' accents due to home and outside influences.
Best of both worlds as far a I can see.
I often wish one of my parents was Scots - think of all those nice 300 verse ballads!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:00 PM

When, may I ask, will Dick Gaughan provide us with English subtitles at his gigs?

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: trevek
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

It occurred to me over the weekend that it is often hard to speak of a "natural" accent as for some people an accent is something you work on and change over time.

Examples: A friend of mine in Shropshire. His father was a minor. Now, when he speaks he has a local accent but not broad, doesn't use too much dialect... however, when he gets on the phone to an old mining buddy his wife complains because he gets really broad. So, which is his 'natural' accent and which is his 'bogus' one?

Likewise, when I worked in a bar we had some Black security staff. When they were talking to customers and to staff they used a local, everyday accent. But when they spoke together or with a group of other Black guys they switched to Jamaican patois (sp?), complete with accent. Few, if any, of them had been born or raised in Jamaica. It was just a "Black" thing, reconnecting with their roots.

So, would it be sensible to tell them they were being bogus? Was it any different to code-switching into a different language?

This brings me round to another view to the original question about Blues singers. How many Black (or White, indeed) singers of Reggae 'put on' an accent to sing Reggae and is this any different to putting on an accent to sing Folk? If so, why/why not?

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: meself
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 12:44 PM

"So, would it be sensible to tell them they were being bogus?" I would recommend against apprising them of this possibilitiy ...

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: trevek
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 12:46 PM

I forgot to mention, they were also generally rather large, muscular individuals (even some of the female staff). Nice people, though!

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: meself
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 01:05 PM

I make it a rule to carry my snub-nosed .44 when I go out to the bars to correct the speech habits of the large and muscular.

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

Okay, I took three years of French in high school. Unfortunately, I never really had a chance to use it, so it's pretty much left me. But let's say that I was able to keep up with it and that I speak French fairly fluently.

So. I have a friend who is French. He calls me on the telephone and we chat for awhile. I speak French while we are talking. As we finish our conversation, my wife walks into the room and asks, "Who was that on the phone?" I respond--in English--that it was Gervaise calling from Paris.

"Normally" I speak in English. So when I was talking with Gervaise, was I being bogus, phony, and artificial? I don't think so.

People can be bilingual. Multilingual. I don't see that it is any different with accents and dialects. People can be "multidialectical." The only question would be "do they speak the languange--or dialect--or accent--well or not?"

I can sing in French. And in Italian. And in a couple of other languages, most of which I can't speak fluently or at all. So why shouldn't I sing in Scots, or Irish, or Yorkshire, or--?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Accents in Folk Music
From: Gene Burton
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 02:01 PM

100!