BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney

Subject: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:08 AM

I am seriously opposed to the death penalty.

But there are always exceptions to every rule.

If we can't impeach, as Nader keeps harping at Congress to do, then we should be able to prosecute those mothers for war crimes against humanity, and give them death by some slow, painful means of torture.

I was palpably relieved last night watching Clinton/McCain/Obama cross another threshold leading to the wimpering death of the Bush/Cheney junta.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:11 AM

"give them death by some slow, painful means of torture."

That's life.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:14 AM

Dear God, no!

Simply consign them to oblivion, to history's oubliette. Why make martyrs out of them? Send W back to Crawford without benefits, make him work for a livng. Let Dicky do the same. Simply forget them, clean up their mess, and move on. Perhaps get a battalion of cats to bury them in sand....

And if you are going to apply a death sentence you owe it to your humanness to do it quickly and right. A long drop that snaps the spinal cord, a bullet in the "reptilian" brain stem -- but long, slow torture? Then you lower yourself to the same level.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:52 AM

I thought I was being clever, implying that a 'long, slow death' is what we mostly all have.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Bee
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:20 AM

They have a significant following of zealous devotees. Go skim through any rabid rightwing American messageboard. There are still plenty of Americans who think this presidency and its employees are God's gift to the world.

But yes, if you think, Fantasma, that your vengeful fantasy is attractive to psychologically healthy people, you should probably rethink.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:21 AM

Well, some of us are having a long, slow, and enjoyable life. Semantics gone wild, I suppose.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:25 AM

The death penalty for these people simply isn't going to happen and you all know that. So the only person hurt by your anger Fantasma is yourself. Better that you expend all of that energy on something positive - like getting the candidate of your choice elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:38 PM

Death penalty? maybe not. But some type of official justice - yes please. The shame of history will be nice...but not enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:54 PM

To quote the title of the song by the folk duo "Magpie" (Greg Artzner & Terry Leonino) "HAUL THEM ALL OFF TO JAIL"

http://www.youtube.com/user/Artzner

This song refers to Bush, Cheney, & Co.

                                           SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Padre
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:13 AM

I have the sense, from reading the posts by fantasma, that his/her life is truly one of depression and gloom, with no evidence of any joy. For this, I truly am sad, and will add the writer to my daily prayer list.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:06 AM

George W. Bush, distraught over his worsening approval rating, was jogging through Washington in search of inspiration. Taking a break upon reaching the Washington Monument, he looks up for guidance and says, "George, you were one of our greatest Presidents, what should I do?"

Suddenly, a voice is heard from above. George Washington says to George W, "Abolish the I.R.S. and start over."

George W, amazed that he's actually talking to a past President, continues his job and this time stops at the Jefferson Memorial. Uttering a similar question to Thomas Jefferson, America's author of the Declaration of Independence and one of its great early philosophers, he asks "Thomas, you've never had these kinds of problems. What can I do to rally people behind me?" Again a voice from above answers, "Welfare is not working, abolish it and start over."

Upon hearing such great advice, George gets excited and plans on going to all the historical sites for guidance. Next stop is the Lincoln Memorial to see President Abraham Lincoln, who met his untimely death after winning the Civil War and keeping the country unified. "Abe, I need your help, people are losing confidence in me and they no longer trust me. What should I do?" After a substantial pause Abe replies, "Take the day off George. Go the the theatre."

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: jacqui.c
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:23 AM

LOL Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:32 AM

I wish I'd written that. Found it on the web.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:35 AM

Good one, Brucie...

BTW, there is a reason why Bush didn't sign on to the World Court... Think about it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,Wayne Monroe
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:56 PM

Yeah, Bobert because that's where they ought to be, before a world court in shackles and orange jump suits.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:46 PM

Even drab old olive green would be good.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: DougR
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:23 PM

Boring!
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:25 PM

OK then. I stand corrected. Even boring old olive green would be good.

That better, Doug?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:44 PM

There's a cell waiting in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base in Cuba, just big enough for the two of them. Lovely tropical sunsets, sea breezes, and water-boarding for additional recreation.

I wouldn't go so far as requesting the death penalty. I'd even give them the option of posting to this thread.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:45 PM

But who will write for them?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:23 PM

Good Heavens! I agree with the Phantom! Can you add that bitch Thatcher as another defendant?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Slag
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:38 AM

Man, what a hateful, vengful bunch of bloodthirsty hypocritcs. Never in my darkest thoughts about Clinton and the travesty of his reign did I ever entertain such loathsome thoughts. How can anyone of you have a serious, meaningful dialogue about the issues involved? Why don't you all just go join the jihad and get it over. Thank God none of you are never going to be in that high post.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 03:17 AM

Slag...I have harboured such thoughts since the beginning of the war, when TV cameras visited a Baghdad hospital containing wards full of limbless and sightless children,victims of "shock and awe" and completely innocent of any terrorist crime.

My thought were reinforced when subsequently it became apparent to all but the most "hateful, vengeful,bloodthirsty hypocrits" that the war itself was based on lies and deceptions.

I am against Capital punishment in principle, but would be prepared to pull the handle myself if Mr Blair and his cabinet could be added to the list...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:18 PM

Jeez, Slag, do you still not realize that "When Clinton lied, nobody died"?

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et. al., sent thousands of people to their deaths for no other reason than to aggrandize themselves and to promote the election and reelection of themselves and their statist associates.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a capital crime, far more serious and damnable than an armed robber's felony murder of one or two people at a time, a gangbanger's drive-by shooting of an innocent bystander along with his fellow-criminal target, even more serious than the "mass" murder of 50-100 random victims at a school or workplace.

But of course I don't expect the perpetrators to be punished. They'll live out their days in luxury, thanks not only to fat pensions at taxpayer expense, but also thanks to their huge investments in the war-making industries they led to the public trough while in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: DougR
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:52 PM

Sorry, Peace, I was referring to the subject of the thread, not your post.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:05 PM

Hope you have been well, Doug. Good to hear from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:24 PM

Slag,

I read your posts closely (as you know). I usually agree with you, but I don't in this case. I have said for years that both Bush and Cheney deserve the death penalty. Unfortunately, it's unlikely they'll receive it.

They have been responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands and the maiming of greater numbers than that. Their perfidy has had a devastating effect on the world, and their two-faced talk before congress(in the USA) and to the people of this world is nothing to be admired.

I live in a country that was punished for NOT joining the Coalition of the Willing (which I recall was composed of USA, UK, Spain and Bulgaria). The cost to us in Canada was billions of dollars--mostly affecting our agricultue industry.

To say the people posting to this thread are hypocrites is not quite accurate. You may not share their (my) thoughts on Bush and Cheney, but because I have different thoughts does not make me a hypocrite. I have wished them dead for over five years now. I would not dance on their graves--just as I didn't rejoice when Saddam Hussein got a sore neck for a second or two. BUT, I shed no tears about it, either. They have been responsible for thousands of deaths. I feel no mercy for any of them.

Sorry.

I still have the greatest respect for you and your writings. Please understand: on this issue we disagree.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:12 PM

In his new book "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder", famed prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi lays out a possible strategy. It's an idea whose time has come. Impeachment is not nearly enough to bring about justice.

An excerpt can be read at www.huffingtonpost.com

"Perhaps the most amazing thing to me about the belief of many that George Bush lied to the American public in starting his war with Iraq is that the liberal columnists who have accused him of doing this merely make this point, and then go on to the next paragraph in their columns. Only very infrequently does a columnist add that because of it Bush should be impeached.

If the charges are true, of course Bush should have been impeached, convicted, and removed from office. That's almost too self-evident to state. But he deserves much more than impeachment. I mean, in America, we apparently impeach presidents for having consensual sex outside of marriage and trying to cover it up. If we impeach presidents for that, then if the president takes the country to war on a lie where thousands of American soldiers die horrible, violent deaths and over 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilians, including women and children, even babies are killed, the punishment obviously has to be much, much more severe. That's just common sense.

If Bush were impeached, convicted in the Senate, and removed from office, he'd still be a free man, still be able to wake up in the morning with his cup of coffee and freshly squeezed orange juice and read the morning paper, still travel widely and lead a life of privilege, still belong to his country club and get standing ovations whenever he chose to speak to the Republican faithful. This, for being responsible for over 100,000 horrible deaths?* For anyone interested in true justice, impeachment alone would be a joke for what Bush did."

See also http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/09/8834/

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Slag
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:40 PM

You might refer to my post of some time back "When Big Things Move". You have to know that when government make decisions, whether you agree with them or not or even if everybody agrees, people get hurt, people die. It is an awesome responsibility to be the leader of a nation because, no matter what you do, some will be hurt, some will die. Having said that, I don't expect to change anyone's mind on political issues. We spend a lot of energy just clarifying our points of view and in applying our ideologies to particular situations.

You all seem to have conveniently overlooked Bosnia and the slaughter of the Serbs. I question our involvement in that entire mess in the first place. Clinton was definitely faced with the choice of two evils. I wont go into the eight years which the more staid and less vocal conservatives suffered through with Clinton. I also don't need to rehearse the facts that Bush, Congress and the free world had essentially the same estimate of the situation in Iraq and WMDs. The US and President Bush had plenty of legitimate cause (17 violations of the UN ceasefire, etc.) to go in and take Saddam out. The pathetic prosecution of the conflict demonstrated flawed thinking and an overall wrong ideology which really, in essence, goes back to Truman and more rightly, Eisenhower.

Your casualty figures are highly disputable and as far as wars go this was verifiably the least injurious to the general population of an enemy than any major conflict the US has been involved in, by far!

The left, your left, is so rabid on Bush that had there been one shred of real evidence that he had done wrong or lied he would have been impeached long ago so you really ought to give it a rest with your blood lust. After all, who does that make you like?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:14 PM

Well, I think a life sentence of community work would do just fine... We could "render" both of these crooks to Iraq to perform it in an Iraqi hospital of rehab center...

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:43 PM

The left, your left, is so rabid on Bush that had there been one shred of real evidence that he had done wrong or lied he would have been impeached long ago

Yes, he would have if the "left" you refer to were in charge of such things. Unfortunately, it's up to the Democrat "opposition" in Congress to prosecute impeachment, and they a. didn't have the required numbers and b. are a bunch of spineless, toadying politicians.

The evidence is real and plentiful. A number of ex-administration insiders, from Richard Clarke to Scott McClellan, have admitted that.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 10:17 PM

I think the death penalty would make martyrs out of Bush and Cheney, and add an air of respectability to their misdeeds. I think the election campaign this year will bring forth a lot of discussion and change, even before the election. Bush and Cheney have almost been forgotten already. Even the Republican candidate is doing his best not to mention them. What better fate can they suffer?

The worst thing that can befall a politician, is to be forgotten.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 02:36 AM

Wrong Joe! Too many political criminals have been conveniently forgotten.
The public memory is short enough, its time the political criminals of our time were held up to the light, but we all know truth and scrutiny are amathema to the political classes.

As Michealr says the political establishment band together to protect their own.

They are the real enemies of the US and the UK... those party hacks.....those apologists for a monstrous political system...even here on "good ole Mudcat"....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Slag
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:38 AM

OK. Bring your charges and make it official or cease and desist! Don't you see that what you are saying is the very essence of what a lynching is? You have condemned a person and are ready to execute him without trial or jury. Such talk. And Joe, aren't you a monitor? You're right in there pitching too. Taking your PREJUDICE to the extreme. You become the bigoted persons whom you so often take great pains to point out in others. So much for the fair mindedness, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:49 AM

Slag, there is only one moderator at Mudcat. It is Joe Offer. The others are helpers. I call them "sub-moderators" but that is a term I came up with. Mostly, the others are called "clones" or "Joe clones".

All of them are Democrats and all of them are activists in their party. If you expect fair-mindedness you will have a rough time here. Just a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:17 AM

I'm not a Democrat nor a party activit yet I hate what Bush & Co. have done to my country...

And, yes, inspite of a long, long realtionship with the Green Party, I am supporting Obama...

I would love to have Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich as president but going to buck my past just this time...

As for the death penalty, I think if you reread the various thoughts here you won't find a "single" voice... But I'm sure it always makes the pro-war Bush folks here feel all smug in trying to lump everyopne who disagrees with them into clone-dom...

Problem is that is that doing so is the kind of black-and-white thinking that has creaed the problems we face...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 11:30 AM

Since I don't believe in capital punishment I would not support such a fate for the two men and the people who fed them so egregiously and so cynically.

Far better to my mind is to somehow convince them of the enormity of their crimes so that they never have a serene night's sleep again.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 02:14 PM

I wrote to Nancy Pelosi and insisted that Bush and Cheney be impeached. No reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: heric
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:38 PM

Bush would have a cognitive impairment defense. Total defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Slag
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:46 PM

kendall, I wonder why?
Bobert, what makes you think I'm FOR Bush? I may have been at one time but his "performance" from early on left me less than enthusiastic. It's so easy to see a fault in others and so terribly difficult to see the SAME fault in ourselves. When it is a general feeling based on ideology, try trading your favorites' names with the names of your opponents and see how that FEELS? If you have specific CHARGES based on factual deeds, that's on thing but just a blanket condemnation based on feelings or ideology is another. To have someone judged and condemned without a trial is un-American, or...Oh! is that the point? You don't like the American way of doing justice? Let me know and I'll save my breath (or fingers, as the case might be).

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM

OK. I now see where Slag is coming from and IMO he's right. So let me please rephrase my earlier remark. I would like to see Bush and Cheney tried for murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: heric
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

Nancy Pelosi knowingly presented a false reason to launch a war of choice, directing the use of manufactured and misleading evidence, with leaking of classified information to discredit opponents. hmm. No, that's not working. It's not ideological. It's not "poor performance."

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

PS

Thanks for the common sense, Slag. (Guess it ain't all that common.)

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,Cruiser
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:25 PM

Let's be fair-minded here folks!

Just waterboard those suckers daily for the rest of their "natural" lives. As a life-long Republican, I would gladly tip the water bucket.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:28 PM

Great to see you, Cruiser. Hope you have been well.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,Cruiser
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:31 PM

Hey Peace, doing fine Sir. You are as witty as ever so you must be in fine form.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Slag
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:37 PM

heric, I'm no fan of Pelosi either, but again, where are your facts? How do YOU know what she knew? How can you say that she KNOWINGLY presented a false reason? You DON"T! Bring forth your charges and your evidence or cease and desist.

Thanks Peace! You knew I wouldn't let you down, didn't you?

Indeed, let the guilty pay. But let's make sure they are guilty and not just on the losing end of a popularity poll.

And, yeah Cruiser, water boarding doesn't sound too extreme...!

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: frogprince
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:47 PM

Uh, Slag; Heric said what he did with Pelosi's name just because you had said to try making the same kind of statements and inserting the names of people on the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 06:03 PM

The law of the land. Read it and weep, folks.

From Wikipedia entry on Treason:

The Constitution does not itself create the offense; it only restricts the definition. The crime is prohibited by legislation passed by Congress. Therefore the United States Code at 18 U.S.C. § 2381 states "whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

Al Qaida in Iraq, not to mention many "elsewheres" are thriving thanks to the treasonous policies of none other than Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld.

My initiating the thread wasn't to discuss how PC everyone was over the death penalty (congrats libs, on conforming neatly according to the party line!).

It was to say, in this instance, even though I am opposed to the death penalty, I would support it.

One need not be impeached to be tried for treason, and the indictment can be brought after they have left office. Since our nation has never bothered with things like South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, or the similar types of war crimes tribunals, what alternatives are there?

Impeachment is off the table as far as the Congress is concerned (the Dems want to win, after all, so why bother with trifling matters like being sworn to uphold the Constitution?). But charges of treason seem most reasonable to me, under the definition limits of Article II, Sec 3 and the above cited 18 U.S.C. § 2381.

Slag seems to be driving with one wheel off the road with his fantasy regarding Bush/Cheney being brought to justice being the equivalent of a public lynching. But hey, whatever floats yer boat there, slag.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 06:36 PM

"Thanks Peace! You knew I wouldn't let you down, didn't you?"

You never have, so I couldn't see ya startin' now. Thanks, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 06:49 PM

Fantasma, what's your take on Bugliosi's approach?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:11 PM

Old Maine saying, "The police always know a lot more than they can prove."

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:17 PM

I don't know what it is. I know he has been an advocate of prosecuting Bush for the murders of all the US soldiers killed in Iraq, but not much else about him.

What would be perfectly appropriate and legitimate would be for him to be tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

However, the US & UK, as world powers, refuse to be held accountable for their crimes against humanity (and they are substantial and far worse than ANY terrorist group's crimes, to be sure) by any international or national body of law or authority.

Which makes them outlaws, of course.

They are, IMO, in the same league as Franco, the Chilean junta, the Duvaliers, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, Slobadan Milosevic, etc.

I do believe those sadists should ALWAYS be brought to justice, preferably by the World Court. But let's face it. The world is currently dominated by powerful corporate and criminal cartels, via "democratic" government leaders who are willing to look the other way they their fellow "partners" commit, condone, cooperate with and embolden horrific acts of genocide, human and environmental atrocities, etc. while we debate which flavor of Democrat tastes dreamier to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Slag
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:20 PM

You may be right fp. The sun hasn't been up long enough here for me to see THAT clearly!

So Fantasma ( how apropos ), you are charging them with Treason? First I notice that you are not citing the Constitution itself or the US Code but Wikipedia. Is this your ultimate source? Are you sure it's correct? Rules of evidence would never allow a case to be brought forward on the grounds of best evidence, for one. Check your source, not hearsay. Your calling for the death penalty? not five years of imprisonment? Not a $10,000 fine? Why? What is your reasoning? What brings you to this decision?

If the Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed forces, who has sworn in the Oath of Office, to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic, is prosecuting a war on behalf of the peoples of the United States AGAINST Al Qaeda, how is that giving comfort and aide to the same? If, as you assert, Al Qaeda is thriving (which I assert, it ISN'T) is this a direct result of the actions and policies of the President. Where are your facts? How are those policy, which by the way are subject to Congress' review and powers of advise and consent, treasonous? Are you going to indict Congress too. Do you recommend the death penalty? Or maybe just the fine?

How is your attack upon the President and his subordinates during a time of war NOT to be considered treasonous? By undermining the President, aren't YOU give aid and comfort to his enemies?   If you ARE against the death penalty, why did you make it prominent in you title for this thread? Weren't you implying that you wanted the President dead? How is this NOT treasonous?

What have you done to combat our enemies, both foreign and domestic? How have YOU aided the cause against Al Qaeda? Have you worn the uniform of the US military against Al Qaeda? Have you supported our soldiers in the field? Regardless of your OPINION on the war? After all, those boys, fighting and dying over there for me and YOU and do so in service to all in this country. What ever the politics involved, it is no fault of theirs. Are your statements against the President encouraging to them? Do you think that makes them want to lay down their lives to defend you?

So come Fantasma, make your case. Lets have the facts, if they be facts. I'm sure the detractors of Mr. Bush and company would love to have what you know for a fact, so they can bring the charges. And if, what you say is true then isn't it criminal to WAIT to bring charges? The police don't WAIT to nab a criminal, especially when there is a strong likelihood that further crimes will be committed. To wait makes you complicit in Mr. Bush's "crimes". So lets have it Fantasma. You can do it! The world is waiting for it! Bring on the charges.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 09:25 PM

For once I agree with Fantasma. Every enemy we have ever had has been of our own making.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 11:01 PM

If we don't give them the death penalty or try them for treason, they will continue their self-serving agenda whether or not they are in office.

"A secret deal being negotiated in Baghdad would perpetuate the American military occupation of Iraq indefinitely, regardless of the outcome of the US presidential election in November.

The terms of the impending deal, details of which have been leaked to The Independent, are likely to have an explosive political effect in Iraq. Iraqi officials fear that the accord, under which US troops would occupy permanent bases, conduct military operations, arrest Iraqis and enjoy immunity from Iraqi law, will destabilise Iraq's position in the Middle East and lay the basis for unending conflict in their country."

Revealed: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control
Bush wants 50 military bases, control of Iraqi airspace and legal immunity for all American soldiers and contractors
By Patrick Cockburn
Independent.co.uk, June 5, 2008

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 12:28 AM

"It was to say, in this instance, even though I am opposed to the death penalty, I would support it." Fantasma

Being so "politically correct", I would say that it is human nature to be ambivalent when it comes to deeply felt matters but I recognize that if on the one hand I do not support capital punishment but on the other call for it in a particular case, that is my failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 04:44 PM

As I understand Bugliosi's approach (I haven't read the book), he seems to say that any state, city or county prosecutor in a legislative area where a citizen has died in Iraq can file murder charges against Bush/Cheney/Rice/Rumsfeld. I wonder if any will take him up on that.

Definitely seems more promising than the chances for impeachment.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:23 AM

Is there a federal law against murder? If not, which state would they be tried in, and why that state?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 11:04 AM

For their 'punishment',Bush & Cheney need official biographies written by the same guys who immortalized James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Warren G. Harding and Franklin Pierce.

Death is way to easy and as noted, invites martyrdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 12:41 PM

"as far as wars go, this [Iraq] was verifiably the least injurious to the general population of an enemy than any major conflict the US has been involved in, by far!"

I find that hard to believe. The number of Iraqi civilian deaths can only be estimated, and varies a bit depending upon the source, but there is little doubt that the number is well up into the six-figure range.

Does anyone among us really believe the "smart-bomb" propaganda, that only military/political targets were ever touched by US bombardment? I've seen way too many images of mutilated women and children to buy into that load of horse hockey.

Of course, the greatest number of slaughters occurred early on, during the "shock-and-awe" phase. I suppose that as this atrocity lasts month after month, year after year, the the number of Iraqi deaths-per-month will inevitably (albeit very gradually) diminish, and apologists for Cheney/Bush will point to the figures as "non injurious."

I am generally opposed to the death penalty, not out of an absolute objection to "eye-for-an-eye," but because the actual practice of execution in the United States today shows that killers who can afford competant legal counsel almost always escape Death Row. Only the poor ever get lethally injected.

This would not be a factor at all in my consideration of imposing the death penalty upon these particular war criminals, whose access to the taxpayer's pocket enables them to hire any lawyers they wish. Let 'em be tried and convicted, and then we'll see if high-priced lawyering can get them off the hook for the ultimate punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 12:59 PM

"Bush & Cheney need official biographies"

Yeah. They'd rightly be located in the fiction section of yer public library.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 01:22 AM

Uh, is anybody here considering the fact that in most cases (these days) a trial precedes a lynching.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 08:50 AM

michaelr, I don't think that sort of local juridiction strategy would be effective. It must come from a national or internation jurisdiction, and the war crimes charged, in order for any prosecution to be effective.

The martyrdom rationalization sounds like something Pelosi and Reid would cook up to defend Bush/Cheney and the US Congress' rush to war.

You could argue we shouldn't have had the Nuremburg trials for the same reason. Or the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa. Or the World Court shouldn't have prosecuted Milosevic because it would make him a martyr.

That just doesn't make sense. Criminals need to be brought to justice, or we can't maintain even the thinnest of veneers of civilization.

While I believe that capital punishment for regular citizen criminals should be forever outlawed, I'm beginning to think that capital punishment for political leaders, tried by the World Court, should be implemented. I think they consider themselves and THEIR lives far more precious than the rest of us, so for them it may well serve as a deterrent. At least until we can reign in the world's tyrants through a global judicial system with the genuine power to end despotic rulers reigns of terror, anyway.

I would definitely favor a transitional use of capital punishment for political leaders to get us to that phase of growth beyond our current reign of terror by political leaders around the world. And I do believe in starting at home in my own backyard, in that regard.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:50 PM

"Uh, is anybody here considering the fact that in most cases (these days) a trial precedes a lynching."

Uh ... no ...

Uh ... trials precede sentencing ... and sometimes execution ...

lynching is ... well ... do I have to explain?

Well lets just say lynch mobs didn't do trials.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 04:45 PM

Just as well then for both your current President and Vice-President that this trial you are talking about would have to rely on evidence and rules of evidence.

Some of the more rabid, dyed-in-the-wool Bush baiters on this forum should go and check exactly what that means. Statements, opinions and accusations presented on various anti-Bush Bloggs do not constitute evidence. Anti-war MSM Reporters spin and hype on statements made and taken out of context do not constitute evidence.

The defence arguements would be based on fact and supported by a clear paper trail that was verified and cross checked at the time decisions were made. 20 x 20 Hindsight will not be admissable.

Mind you in the subsequent coverage some of you might just learn that the decision to invade Iraq was not based on any single issue. In March 2003 that decision was correct and totally justified, and presented with the options available any person sitting in the White House would have done exactly the same thing, give or take a month or two.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 04:52 PM

I suggest you read the Congressional Record-House of Representatives-for June 9, 2008, Teribus. A fine collection of paper trails for you, all in one place.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM

"In March 2003 that decision was correct and totally justified...any person sitting in the White House would have done exactly the same thing"

Some people, apparently, will believe anything they're told by their revered leaders

I seriously doubt that a President Gore would have begun the first and only "premptive" (i.e., unprovoked) war in US history ~ certainly not without an exit strategy.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:56 PM

"20 x 20 Hindsight will not be admissable.

Mind you in the subsequent coverage some of you might just learn that the decision to invade Iraq was not based on any single issue. In March 2003 that decision was correct and totally justified, and presented with the options available any person sitting in the White House would have done exactly the same thing, give or take a month or two. "

Oh bullshit. As I just said on another thread, 23 million or more hippies, folkies, students and other undesirables had it exactly f'ing right AT THE TIME, and caught a raft of shit from those of you who had it wrong at the time, and still do. It is not hindsight. We saw it. You didn't. But you and your ilk will never admit that.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 12:01 AM

I was one of them, TIA, but haven't been for years. Like about four. I admit to it, and will gladly tell the world that I had my head up my ass on that invasion. BUT, I don't anymore. And mostly it was because of many people on Mudcat--I think yourself included. So, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 06:32 AM

More proof of US citizens being conned on this invasion, see Thread, 23 billion - are you serious, it`s amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 10:30 AM

ard:
Thanks. Holy shit. Hope this airs in the USA at some point - soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 10:32 AM

It won't make a damned bit of difference, TIA. Not one damned bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 11:20 AM

"I seriously doubt that a President Gore would have begun the first and only "premptive" (i.e., unprovoked) war in US history ~ certainly not without an exit strategy."

Well Poppagator, I wouldn't be so sure about that, after all I have not read, or heard anywhere that he raised any objections to the "premtive" (i.e. unprovoked) attacks on Sudan and Afghanistan while he was Vice-President. The latter by the bye could have resulted in starting a nuclear war between Pakistan and India, it was only extremely fast talking on the part of the US that prevented it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

Bill Clinton ordered the bombing of Serbia, Kosovo, Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan and Iraq. All done without a word of support from the US Congress, which is supposed to approve all war activity. Busy little beaver for someone who said: "I loathe the military".

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 11:57 AM

On MSNBC Chris Matthews said that among Republicans, Bush polled less popular than gay marriage.

On Coast to Coast AM right wing ClearChannel radio, many people called in last night and were suggesting sedition, revolution and extreme anxiety about the Bush regieme's last gasp and grasp for a bigger war with Iran.




I think we all now realize that the military industrial complex and neocon plans do not require the people's consent, the world's approval or any consideration of the welfare and health of the Earth itself.




I imagine that the Secret Service agents assigned to W are beyond twitchy at this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:46 PM

When did Clinton say "I loath the military"?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:00 PM

It was written by a young Bill Clinton to an ROTC Colonel who was trying to recruit him. Google

"I Loathe the Military".

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

CWas posted on the Snopes forum.

"CLINTON'S DEC. 3, 1969 LETTER TO COL. HOLMES

(His notorious "draft-dodging" "I Loathe The Military" letter)

I am sorry to be so long in writing. I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month, and from now on you will, but I have had to have some time to think about this letter. Almost daily since my return to England I have thought about writing, about what I want and ought to say. First, I want to thank you, not just for saving me from the draft, but for being so kind and decent to me last summer, when I was as low as I have ever been. One thing which made the bond we struck in good faith somewhat palatable to me was my high regard for you personally. In retrospect, it seems that the admiration might not have been mutual had you known a little more about me, about my political beliefs and activities. At least you might have thought me more fit for the draft than for ROTC.

Let me try to explain. As you know, I worked for two years in a very minor position on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I did it for the experience and the salary, but also for the opportunity, however small, of working every day against a war I opposed and despised with a depth of feeling I had reserved solely for racism in America before Vietnam. I did not take the matter lightly but studied it carefully, and there was a time when not many people had more information about Vietnam at hand than I did.

I had written and spoken and marched against the war. One of the national organizers of the Vietnam Moratorium is a close friend of mine. After I left Arkansas last summer, I went to Washington to work in the national headquarters of the Moratorium, then to England to organize the Americans for the demonstrations Oct. 15 and Nov. 16.

Interlocked with the war is the draft issue, which I did not begin to consider separately until early 1968. For a law seminar at Georgetown I wrote a paper on the legal arguments for and against allowing, within the Selective Service System, the classification of selective conscientious objection, for those opposed to participation in a particular war, not simply to "participation in war in any form."

From my work, I came to believe that the draft system itself is illegitimate. No government really rooted in limited parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war which, in any case does not involve the peace and freedom of the nation.

The draft was justified in World War II because the life of the people collectively was at stake. Individuals had to fight, if the nation was to survive, for the lives of their countrymen and their way of life. Vietnam is no such case. Nor was Korea an example where, in my opinion, certain military action was justified but the draft was not, for reasons stated above.

Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country (I.e. the particular policy of a particular government) right or wrong. Two of my friends at Oxford are conscientious objectors. I wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them to his Mississippi draft board, a letter which I am more proud of than anything else I wrote at Oxford last year. One of my roommates is a draft resister who is possibly under indictment and may never be able to go home again. He is one of the bravest, best men I know. That he is considered a criminal is an obscenity.

The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life. I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason; to maintain my political viability within the system. For years I have worked to prepare myself for a political life characterized by both practical political ability and concern for rapid social progress. It is a life I still feel compelled to try to lead. I do not think our system of government is by definition corrupt, however dangerous and inadequate it has been in recent years (The society may be corrupt, but that is not the same thing, and if that is true we are all finished anyway.)

When the draft came, despite political convictions, I was having a hard time facing the prospect of fighting a war I had been fighting against, and that is why I contacted you. ROTC was the only way left in which I could possibly, but not positively, avoid both Vietnam and resistance. Going on with my education, even coming back to England, played no part in my decision to join ROTC. I am back here, and would have been at Arkansas law school because there is nothing else I can do. In fact, I would like to have been able to take a year out perhaps to teach in a small college or work on some community action project and in the process decide whether to attend law school or graduate school and how to begin putting what I have learned to use. But the particulars of my personal life are not nearly as important to me as the principles involved. After I signed the ROTC letter of intent I began to wonder whether the compromises I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program in itself and all I seemed to have done was to protect myself from physical harm. Also, I began to think I had deceived you, not by lies because there were none but by failing to tell you all the things I'm writing now. I doubt that I had the mental coherence to articulate them.

After that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1-D deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of my self-regard and self-confidence really set in. I hardly slept for weeks and kept going by eating compulsively and reading until exhaustion brought sleep. Finally, on Sept. 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board, saying basically what is in the preceding paragraph, thanking him for trying to help in a case where he really couldn't, and stating that I couldn't do the ROTC after all and would he please draft me as soon as possible.

I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it on me every day until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn't mail the letter because I didn't see, in the end, how my going in the army and maybe going to Vietnam would achieve anything except a feeling that I had punished myself and gotten what I deserved. So I came back to England to try to make something of this second year of my Rhodes scholarship.

And that is where I am now, writing to you because you have been good to me and have a right to know what I think and feel. I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves still loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes, of the best service you could give. To many of us, it is no longer clear what is service and what is disservice, or, if it is clear, the conclusion is likely to be illegal.

Forgive the length of this letter. There was much to say. There is still a lot to be said, but it can wait. Please say hello to Col. Jones for me.

Merry Christmas

Sincerely,
Bill Clinton"

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 04:51 PM

"Congressional Record-House of Representatives-for June 9, 2008" - Amos is the Kucinich "rant"? Sorry Amos, that's only his opinion not eveidence and Kucinich knows it that is why he is attempting to go for "Impeachment" which as we all know is not a legal proceeding and is therefore not bound by rules of evidence that would apply in a court of law. I do take it that all our dyed-in-the-wool-Bush-baiters know that impeachment only leads to dismissal from office, there would be no imprisonment or hanging.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 05:01 PM

But, after he leaves office he could then be tried for murder under US law. If the crime or intention to commit the crime occurs on federal property, it's then up to the FBI to investigate because it falls under federal jurisdiction. And they'd be investigating an ordinary citizen and not one protected by his 'office'.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 05:42 PM

Great to see Clinton's letter to that officer; brought back memories. While the details of his case were different from those of mine, I experienced many of the same conflicted thoughts around that time.

"Loathing the military" was an unfortunate choice of words, of course, much too easily taken out of context and thereby misunderstood.

The context, in case you missed it: "I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves still loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes, of the best service you could give."

It would have been better for him to say "...loathing the current military misadventure."

Nowadays, of course, a graduate student in a parallel situation can breeze through life without giving this generation's undeclared and arguably neo-colonial war nearly so much attention and serious consideratiton. He/she can just look at the paper or watch the news, conclude that "I'm opposed," and/or "I admire the soldiers for what they have to do, but I'm glad it's not me," and leave it at that.

Why? No draft any more. I've always been opposed to conscription, for myself, for my kids, and for anyone and everyone else, but there's something to be said for its capacity to focus the public's attention on miltary policy, and on the truly life-and-death nature of warfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 05:48 PM

The worry with an all-volunteer army is that the people who are in it WANT to be in it, and perhaps there is a mindset with that wherein it's easy to 'just follow orders', right or wrong. So maybe C-in-C says, "We are declaring martial law in 12 hours. Saddle up. Anyone balks, shoot 'em." It is possible that a drafted infantryman/woman would refuse. A volunteer? Maybe not.

I have though about that argument for years. I do NOT know how much water it holds.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 02:06 AM

"after he leaves office he could then be tried for murder under US law. If the crime or intention to commit the crime occurs on federal property, it's then up to the FBI to investigate because it falls under federal jurisdiction. And they'd be investigating an ordinary citizen and not one protected by his 'office'." - Quite right Peace, they would, then too would evidence, and rules of evidence apply. My bet is that they wouldn't come up with anything and whoever set them on the case would be charged with wasting their time.

The US is not going to go back to conscripted armed forces. Defence of the realm is expensive enough as it is, you don't spend that amount of money, or even, more on a bunch of part-timers who do not want to be there in the first place. "A volunteer is worth ten pressed men" no truer word ever spoken. Take a good look at the men and women serving in your armed forces, they are all volunteers, they are "winning" in both Iraq and in Afghanistan. Compare them to the conscript shambles of a military force that was sent to perform the same task in Vietnam - Night and Day; Chalk and Cheese are the comparisons brought to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Tweed
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

Yes, set the two of them loose far to the north of the arctic circle with nothing but speedos and two shotguns.

Akenaton, I remember the Bagdad hospital scene on the television, in particular the little kid whose arms were both missing and who was crying his eyes out and couldn't even wipe away his own tears. That bit will stick in my head for the rest of my life I expect. I don't cry much anymore but I busted out hard when that came on.

I don't know how they can sleep at night. I don't know how they could be considered to even be human beings anymore.

Tweed

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 03:23 PM

That was one small decimal point in the wide range of fallout from Mister Bush's "right decision".

There are widows all over America who have cried as hard; and perhaps worse in the length of their suffering, those who are stuck in the frozen hell of half-widowhood because their husband or lover or son came home broken in mind by being exposed to extremes of violence against hsi own species, with nothing to genuinely justify it and no way ouot of it... . There are children all over Iraq, and refugees all over Europe and the Middle East whose lives have been shattered and the pieces broken and lost. And there are tens of thousands--perhaps hundreds of thousands--of graves in Iraq that sprang directly from Mister Bush's "right decision".

A

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty for Bush/Cheney
From: heric
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:41 PM

You have all seen today's news maybe?

"On Monday, the nation's highest court agreed to decide how much evidence is needed to sustain a lawsuit seeking to hold former Attorney General John Ashcroft and current FBI Director Robert Mueller personally responsible for harsh antiterror policies that allegedly led to abuses of Muslim detainees in US prisons.

The issue is important because it could open the way to thousands of lawsuits by Muslims who were rounded up and subjected to harsh conditions of confinement during the investigation following the 9/11 attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Center. More significantly, it could open the door to private lawsuits against other cabinet-level members of the Bush administration allegedly involved in developing controversial antiterror policies.

The issue arises in a suit filed by a Pakistani Muslim held for seven months in solitary confinement in a Brooklyn prison after being wrongly suspected of involvement in terrorism after 9/11. Javaid Iqbal was deported to Pakistan after the FBI determined he was not a terrorist."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0617/p02s01-usju.html