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Dressing up and playing soldiers
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Subject: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 26 May 99 - 10:58 AM After hundreds (well, two) requests, I've started this thread to deal with re-enactment BS. As a student, I did some Early Mediaeval Living History with Regia Anglorum, but graduated to the Sealed Knot in 1992 mostly because of the increased beerflow and decreased BS-flow (lol). In the SK I've been Dragoone, Matross, and Ensign, all in Northampton's Foote (Ye Kynge and Ye Cause!), and (IvyB, please note) am responsible for the 'More Beer, More Shouting, Resistance is Useless!' shouty thing. Well well. I've found a significant overlap between Folkies and SK-ers, less so among the Anglo-Saxon crowd. However, I've reached that point in my life where other people losing their rag has lost its appeal. Yours in the Cause, Dai |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Fadac Date: 26 May 99 - 11:07 AM After making my living wearing the green suit. I'm not much into playing. However, I have been known to wear a kilt, dirk, skeen-do, and other fine cultry. There are some British re-encatment units here in Ca. Mostly Scottish regiments. They perform, march and fire the muskets from time to time. One group has a hand built Gattling Gun. They fire it off at various Scottish games. The rest of us look like the horde from the Highlands. Some go so far as to use the blue body paint, then they look like Pics. At one game a woman wearing just blue paint, ran around the campground screaming Picish battle crys. That night there was a big bondire, the pipers played as they marched around the fire, Hail-Bop was in the sky, it was a magic nigh. There is some fantastic music as the Scottish games. That is if you like Celtic muisc. If your into Klingon Operas, that might not be the place to go... Happy Wed. Fadac |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: The Shambles Date: 26 May 99 - 01:26 PM Thanks for starting this. What was all that about splitters and all those initials? |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Tom May Date: 26 May 99 - 02:15 PM Since this seems to be a re-enactment thread, I might as well add my own background. I'm ex-Napoleonic Association (63rd Foot and the 2nd Silesians Just rabbiting (sorry, Wilfreding) on. Tom
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Penny S. Date: 26 May 99 - 04:22 PM So what was that about splitters and all those initials? |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Fadac Date: 26 May 99 - 05:18 PM What splitters, what initals. Pics were an early people that were deisplaced by the celts in Scotland. They were the ones that fought the Romans. They usualy fought naked with the execption of blue body paint or tatoos. Drove the Romans nuts. I'm still confused on the question. |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Penny S. Date: 26 May 99 - 05:30 PM It's on another thread on Mudcatters in the UK. Several members found they were also members of English Civil War re-enactment groups. To which they referred by initials. As to the splitting, we wait to hear about it. |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Penny S. Date: 26 May 99 - 05:33 PM It's the uk folkies thread. |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 27 May 99 - 03:40 AM The original Civil War society was started (1967?) by a mad Sandhurst instructor ("The Brig"). This was the 'Sealed Knot' (SK). It consisted of bored officer cadets dragged out to remote fields and made to march around shooting at a pretend enemy. The unit expanded to include civilians, some of whom wanted to be The Parliament, so formed another society, called the Roundhead Association (or RA). At some point, another society started up, the English Civil War Society (ECWS, pronounced equus). They, however, never got more than 20 or 30 members So, it's all nancy politics I'm afraid. Let's get out there and make large explosions, I say. oh, and more beer, more shouting. |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Steve Parkes Date: 27 May 99 - 03:56 AM I like to wear the Scarlet Coat, me. With a sola topi, and lots of colourful stuff on the front, and sing "The wetting of the jacket" and things. I used to do it with a friend, but doing it on youir own isn't the same, and there seems to be less call for it in uvlic places these days. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Steve Parkes Date: 27 May 99 - 03:57 AM ... and not much call for it in public either. What's wrong with this keyboard? |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 27 May 99 - 05:12 AM Never mind the keyboard, what's wrong with your fingers? Those of you in the US -- The SK have been in the Shenandoah Valley for the last two years, re-enacting the left wing of Edgehill. That's obviously the extreme left wing. They were assisted by guys from the local ACW society, who were very happy at being allowed to let cannons off - is there some kind of legal problem over there with black powder? |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Banjer Date: 27 May 99 - 06:12 AM Yes Dai there is technically a legal problem with black powder. The bombing of the World Trade Center in NYC seems to be the beginning of all sorts of silly, unenforcable new laws. I have seen a copy of some of the regulations provided one of the local reenactment units by a fellow who makes his living professionally as an explosives expert and pyrotechnician. It seems that blackpowder enthusiasts are limited as to how much powder they may transport. That quantity is measured in ounces. Whenever I load our units' cannon (a 3/4 scale replica of a 6 pound James, could pass for a full scale mountain howitzer) on my truck and take it to an event, I carry about ten pounds with me. I guess theoretically I am in violation of federal law, although no one has yet challenged me or questioned the practice. The fellow that provided the material on powder regulations was unable to tell us if we fell into a seperate group and had a differing set of regulations to govern us or not. It is all very confusing, hearing different things from various different sources. I suppose until something adverse happens to draw attention to our hobby, ie:a mishap in the handling of black powder, we will be allowed to carry on business as usual. |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: One who knows Date: 27 May 99 - 06:45 AM Definitions: ECWS: The English Civil War Society KAotW:The King's Army of the West, later to be the KA: The King's Army RA: The Roundhead Association SK: The Sealed Knot
A Brief History of English Civil War Re-enactment.
The Sealed Knot was the first of the societies and was indeed formed by "The Brig". That is, Brigadier Peter Young. at that time a noted Civil War historian. (Also, in his time, ex-commando, youngest Brigadier in the British Army, and Sandhurst lecturer.). The story goes that the idea came at a garden party and the first re-enactment was at Edgehill. In my time the birth of the SK was refered to as "The Edgehill Garden Party".
The next bit of the story is closely tied to personalities and internal society politics so I'll try to be brief. I'm no longer involve in re-enactmant, I don't have an axe to grind, and I don't know or much care what the current organisations are like.
The result was the KAotW formed by some of those upset by the way things were. They were from the south west of England, hence the original name. They were later joined by more dissatisfied SK members and became the more simply named KA. In 1974 when I became active in re-enactment the KA was a small re-enactment group, most members still held SK membership as well as KA, the common enemy was the RA which had already formed but I don't know the story of their genesis. Relationships between SK & KA where worsening badly at this time and within a year of my first event they were effectivley "at war" neither supporting or attending the others events. By this time (~1976) the KA was well established however and was getting on well with the RA who had more or less stopped supporting the SK events. This continued for some years...
Here I take issue with Dai. The ECWS was formed by the incorporation of the RA and the KA into one "limited company/registered charity" to provide an overall framework for events. It had an effective membership equivalent the the sum of the RA & KA. At this time the whole re-enactment thing was under much closer police scrutiny and control, particularly in the matter of weapons.
NB The Great Rebellion Society see the other thread weren't really splitters. They were just a group of about 30 people who lasted about two seasons and the disappeared of joined the RA.
AndyG |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 27 May 99 - 07:23 AM Sorry Andy, there was meant to be a <G> in my posting somewhere. The ECWS are justifiably a large, thriving and popular society whom I respect, as I do all re-enactors. I stand corrected regarding the history: and didn't you write a cookery book in about 1560?? |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: The Shambles Date: 27 May 99 - 01:15 PM Thanks, that is a lot clearer now. |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Penny S. Date: 27 May 99 - 05:09 PM Thanks from me, too. From my point of view I now know that when I would have been interested I wouldn't have been, and now that I'm not I might be. It also sounds like the history of any other group of people set up for any purpose. The ones I know are local action groups for various purposes. No armour, horses or black powder, just photocopiers and petition forms. But that history fits exactly. Except the politics aren't always what you might expect. The heirs of the Diggers have been active up on Crystal Palace Ridge this week, by the way, re-enacting the first episode of Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Without the Vogons. |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Fadac Date: 27 May 99 - 05:13 PM NO VOGONS! Auch, then what to use for Poetry? Imortal lines like: Roses are Red, Vilolta are blue. I like cats, But birds don't. --------- Brings tears. |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Penny S. Date: 27 May 99 - 05:19 PM Ah, but we have the poetry - Allan Ahlberg's "Who wants to be in my gang?", and Roger McGough's (I think) poem about wanting to be the leader. |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: manylodges (inactive) Date: 27 May 99 - 10:48 PM There isn't a lot of problems with black powder as long as your using it for the right purpose. We in the U.S. have lots of re-enactments for different time periods. I and my family do pre 1840 fur trade area this period ends just befor the civil war here in the U.S. We do lots of Shooting with flintlock, and cap muzzle loaders. And there are a few cannons that go off every once in awhile. We belong to a club that gets it's powder in bulk. We just make sure it is legal. We also have a Scottish groop, French Canadian voyaguers, French militia, Rogers Rangers, U.S. minitman, American Mountain Men, Plains Settlers just as you have many different clans singing together, we have different time periods, and different geographic areas all singing together to. There is lots of fun at camp fires once the sun goes down. I have been doing this for twelve years and have never seen a fight at a rendezvous. We have lots of beer, whisky,and wine mixed with guns, scalping knives, and black powder. We have our own type of police named after the native American police that patroled the camps of the original renezvous called "Dog Soldiers" And any problem child is put to his camp. We have had Celtic Games at our rendezvous, and you cannot participate unless you wear a kilt!! I prefer a breach cloth and leggins the way the native americans did. I is very comfortable, but keeps you covered. I know thows who were ther kilt regimental. I would realy like to see a re-enactment in your country. Some of our rendezvous are open to the public, but most are on privet grounds just for our own pleasure. A lot of us in "Buckskining" as it is called, Do School teaching to explain a part of our history that seems to be left out of the history books. Do You teach as well? |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 28 May 99 - 03:36 AM One of the mission statements of the SK is to promote knowledge of history through our (their) activities; Most regiments have people who seem to specialise in talking to kids of various ages. The form this takes varies from a straight stand-up lecture to a dramatised performance in first person. |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Steve Parkes Date: 28 May 99 - 03:38 AM They've been very strict about explosives in this country since November 5th 1605! It meant that, apart from Nov 5th celebrations, it was very difficult for civilians like the British Interplanetary Society to make "serious" rockets between the wars. All the best hardware development was therefore done by the Germans and Americans ... and we all know where that led! There are lots of people here who dress up in GI outfits and race around in jeeps, you know. No accounting for taste! Steve |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 28 May 99 - 06:54 AM Are there any SK-ers out there with the old songbook? I've never been able to get hold of a copy, I think it was produced by one of the Associations - probably Northern, since they're generally the loudest - and subsumed by Strawhead on that album... I'm particularly interested in The Marching Song of the New Model Army - is this genuine? Where did it come from? |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: AndyG Date: 28 May 99 - 07:56 AM Dai, I was hoping you were joking, but I've met too many, far, far too serious people who would defend their hobbies with that sort of fable so I wanted the facts to be clear.
Penny,
In terms of this thread, our company in the KA was disbanded, by the KA, (not by our parent regiment) for "persistant malignancy". Which translated as "being more interested in historical re-enactment than in the King's Army." The first we knew about it was the official printed announcement when we arrived at the event ! (I still resent this.)
AndyG |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Ferrara Date: 28 May 99 - 08:06 AM Speaking of the picts, there's a wonderful song, I think Joe Hickerson recorded it, called "Woad." Woad, of course, was the blue body paint used by the Picts. A typical fragment of the song is "Romans crossed the English Channel / All dressed up in tin and flannel / Half a pint of Woad per man'll / Clothe us more than these. / Tailors, you can save your stitches / For making beds for bugs in britches / We have Woad to clothe us, which is / Not a nest for fleas!" I couldn't find it by a search of the DT, alas. I do have it in a notebook somewhere and will post it someday.... If I haven't got it up here by June 10, somebody send me a (reasonably polite) reminder. -Rita F |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 28 May 99 - 08:29 AM Ferrara: 'tis indeed in the database: look for 'woad', or clicke ye here. |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: danl Date: 28 May 99 - 11:14 AM ah ha! i go away for a few days and always seem to come back to such wonderfull threads! i can understand all this talk of petty politics. im still smarting from a rather large argument in our regiment last year which has meant im the only one of my five siblings who WERE in the knot who are STILL in the knot. but its important to remeber behind all these descriptions of splits and arguments there is still something very enjoyable about reenactment, and if you can ignore those poeple who DO let the power thing go to their head there are many other very positive things about reenactment of any type. for those who have not 'dressed up to play soldiers' before ill try to explain, those who have, i hope you will agree with me. its not just about history and, despite the reputation!, its not just about the beer! there is no where else i know where it is possible to get together such a compleatly diverse group of people who are all united by the disire to simply enjoy themselves. people from so many different walks of life, ages, areas and backgrounds. in a society like we have in the 20th century it is hard to find many examples of a true community but that is what i have oftern heard regiments or smaller societies descried as. on the feild or of you tend to stick to and support those who share your uniform and intrest. you may only see people a few weekends a year but these people can become very close and reliable friends. sometimes you realise that if you had meet them in any other circumstance, in the 'real world', you would never have thought of talking to them, but in a situation like this where there is so little to judge people on, other things become important. you begin to realise when everyone is wearing roughly the same how much you usualy judge people by appearences. when the important things are dry loo paper and enough black powder, you can start to relax again. its oftern been called escapism but i dont think thats something bad. the next week for me is going to be terrible because on next monday i have not 1 but 2 chemistry exams and will have to spend all my time revising for them. but this weekend im going to a castle near cheltenham which i have never been to before to see my friends, fire a cannon at someone, dance, drink and sing the nght away and not look at a single chemistry book. we all know how irritating 'politcs' can be and how hurtfull it can be. but this can occur anywhere and sometimes you have to weigh up the good and the bad and appreciate what you can get out of such societies, as hard as it can be to ignore those who let the power of it get to them. anyone who is thinking of joining a re enactment society, id say do so. but id also add that the small societies/groups do tend to work better than the large ones. our regiment has nearly 300 people in it now so naturaly it is harder to keep in touch with all parts of it now. ther is a lot of nostalga for the days when it was about twenty people. but maybe that is just that - nostalgia. anyway, i hope i have pointed out a slightly more positive side to this thread than all this talk of splitters etc which i apologise for because i think it was me who said that word first! for those who still want more info (as if this reply wasnt long enough already!) there is a site for the National Assosiation of Re enactment Societies at (i think!) www.nares.org sorry i dont know at all how to do the blue clikky things but i think you should be able to find it with that. its a fab site or at least will be when its compleatly finished, but does include backround on re enactment and info on many socities. the sealed knot also have a site. well im off now, next time you hear from me my first to exams will be over! love ivy b. |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: AndyG Date: 28 May 99 - 11:43 AM Ivy and other potential re-enactors, Please pay more attention to my first post, about the history of the societies, rather than the second. In particular, and in my defence, please note I was fully engaged by this hobby for twelve years. I didn't pack it in because of the politics but because I could no longer get to the events.
AndyG |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Penny S. Date: 29 May 99 - 06:20 PM On a related subject (just about), do any of you re-enactors know any experimental archeology type smiths? I've been reading a book on the end of Roman Britain in which the hero works with meteoritic iron - and last I heard from a metallurgist's point of view, iron/nickel sulphide doesn't make good blades. This writer is very convincing, however, not a fantasist (though I think he may be describing a stony meteorite's fall rather than an iron, I'm prepared to suspend disbelief on that one), and I have found a few references on the net to such things. So, does anyone know anyone who knows anything about this? Is it possible? (Oh, and so this isn't entirely BS, there is a music connection. Book 2 is called the Singing Sword!) Penny |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 01 Jun 99 - 04:06 AM When I was in Regia, our smithing expert was (er) a smith from Stoke-on-Trent, chap called 'Blue'. Can't remember his real name - try http://www.regia.org/index.html, or anwyrc hiran. |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Penny S. Date: 07 Jun 99 - 06:06 PM Thanks for that site, Dai. Very absorbing, though tantalising.( I'll put our Y3 teachers onto it.) References to the food being good, but no recipes. References to traces of the music, but no details of the examples quoted. Nothing on the iron, though. The guy writing the book had a very cunning way out of whatever controversy exists on the subject. His smith didn't use an iron meteorite, but an iron-rich stone. As he carefully does not describe its appearance, but it does not seem to be a pallasite which has visible iron, it seems to have been a chondrite, with 25% iron, 17% magnesium. Whether this makes a good blade, or is even smeltable at Roman achievable temperatures I haven't the faintest idea. (He uses a mixture of charcoal and coal - I thought the sulphur was a problem with that.) Penny |
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Subject: RE: Dressing up and playing soldiers From: Sapper_RE Date: 08 Jun 99 - 06:00 PM Person search for all you Civil War (the 17th Century one that is) enthusiasts. In the early 70s I was stationed in Maidstone with 36 Engineer Regiment. One of my fellow Sappers, another Bob and a surveyor by trade, was a member of (I think) the King's Army. I realise that it is a bl***y long shot, but he'd be in the region of 46 to 48 now and I'd be interested to meet him again. Sorry that's all I have to go on but who knows?? Bob |
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