BS: Sharia Law in England

Subject: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 07:16 PM

According to the headline of the (Daily) Mail Online, the Lord Chief Justice says that "Sharia Law SHOULD (sic) be used be Britain..." Well I don't know that it 'should be used', but I would have no objection, were I a Brit, to it being used under certain circumstances: if the matter is strictly a civil matter; and if both parties really agree to the proceeding (but I don't mean 'agree, wink, wink').

In Britain, Jew are entitled to settle certain matters in a Beit Din, a Jewish court, so the precedent is there for religious jurisdiction.

In the U.S, likewise, Jews use Beit Dinim for civil matters, and agree to be bound by those decisions, much like binding arbitration.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 07:28 PM

This has been discussed here previously John after a similar suggestion by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

The Daily Mail is notorious for it's sensational and often totally misleading (not to mention xenophobic) headlines.

The UK courts, like many other Western models, uses a confrontational approach; the Jewish and Sharia laws take a more 'negotiable' approach to some civil disputes.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 03:10 AM

It's an irrelavance, in the UK, UK law takes precedence over all others, ie. it's the only law that really counts.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 03:47 AM

Perhaps you could have sentences which have elements of both systems - sort of part chop?

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:07 AM

As I understand it, outcomes of any disputes settled in Sharia hearings are valid only if compatible with UK law. That sounds great to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:16 AM

It has been working 'de facto' for some time, it is just good pro government PR to publicise their generosity of spirit.
It's not that long till the next election you know.

G

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:37 AM

As far as I'm aware, it's perfectly within the bounds of UK law for Muslims (or anyone for that matter) to settle disputes via any third party, providing it's by mutual consent and within the law of the land- John mentions the example of the Jewish Beit Din which provides a similar example.

But of course any reasonable discussion of Islam will be The End Of Our Country As We Know It as far as Daily Mail is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: GUEST,AgeofReason
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:49 AM

I see this as a thin end of the wedge. Once they get this, then they will push for more and more. The only reason The British Council of Muslims want this is to isolate their fellow brethren from non-Islamic rationalism. The next step will be to ban insults of Muhammad - or to put it another way, a rational debate about Islam.

I think everyone should ignore the Daily Mail reference. Just because the Daily Mail report it, does not mean that it is not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:02 AM

Let's get the facts right first of all, before we start quoting any assumptions. What was actually said (as quoted on BBC Radio 4's morning programme) was that "principles of sharia law should be used in circumstances of mediation within the context of UK Law, without UK Law being superceded in any way". This, in other words, is not about behadings or amputations, not about alternative forms of punishment, but aims to afford sharia law the same status in the UK among muslims that is already given to the Torah in disputes among people of the jewish faith. Its main applicability will be in marital disputes or cases of disputed wills, and in the related mediation.

No need to conjure up nightmares of public executions.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:07 AM

I should add that a law that is adapted to societal changes becomes all the stronger for it. The alternative is to allow laws to become antiquated and irrelevant to contemporary life, surely not a good thing.

If UK law can be adapted to relate to all of today's UK society, that surely is a good thing, because it avoids a section of society becoming disenfranchised and potentially "lawless".

Don't sweat it, therefore. Rejoice.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: GUEST,AgeofReason
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:19 AM

One person:One law. It is a mistake to allow sections of society to sink into a self imposed ghetto. Laws are continuoulsy being updated and modernised - what do you think Parliament does?

Do not rejoice: instead, think through it's implications and where it may lead.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:32 AM

I have thought it through, but have arrived at different conclusions to yours, oh Anonymous One. You are welcome to your fears and nightmares; I will have none of it, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: oldfogie
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:11 AM

doesn't sound very pro integration. If you allow a parallel legal system how soon before requests come in for a 'state' with total power over its people?
can anyone living in a country with a different legal structure to England ask for the laws of England to apply to them rather than the country's own laws. I doubt it. Why should it happen here?
I think the unfortunate outcome of allowing this to go ahead will be reinforcing seperatism and racial prejudice. Surely we don't want that.
Before anyone says that this is not what is being proposed - think 'thin end of the wedge'

Also - please note that I WANT peace and racial harmony - I'm just not sure this will help.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:14 AM

I don't get this. I haven't done anything but I've been demoted from Steve Shaw to Guest. What must I do?

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:26 AM

Log in.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:35 AM

What Peace said.
See 'Login' in the Quick Links drop down window up at the top.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:44 AM

Just because something has been printed in the Daily Mail, that does not prove it is a lie (although that is usually a safe assumption). However, ditto to most of the above comments. We are not going to sensationalise or distort an issue, just because it has potential for sensationalist headlines. Those who wish to make a big issue of all this will probably choose to enjoy a drama of their own making. I am off for a pint with George...

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:55 AM

The idea that the civil rights of divorcees or separated partners or children, the minima provided for by the UK courts applying UK law, shouldbe capable of being got round by persuading people on religious grounds to accept a lower standard of protection because it is the one of a religion absolutely horrifies me.

I may think that the courts are barking mad sometimes (and I'm sure they think the same of me) but the idea that Muslim women could be banjaxed into accepting fewer matrimonial rights because of Sharia law is unacceptable. It is a form of undue influence, and the courts have for centuries controlled such influence. They should not stop now.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:25 AM

"...courts are barking mad..."


                      Well said. I agree with that!

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:39 AM

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me in theory. Give it a go and see how it turns out in practise. It's no more than asking the vicar to settle a dispute about the height of hedge, in order to avoid going to law.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 12:13 PM

Oooh, dunno, Greg... Once the vicar gets hold of the hedge trimmer who would trust him? What's to stop him swinging round and going all Solomon-like? It's the thin end of the wedge...

OK, I accept demerits for being sarky and facetious. Unworthy of me.

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM

I'm wondering whether I'm back from the living dead guest-house...

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM

YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Sharia Law in England
From: GUEST,Chris P.
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 02:55 PM

I seem to remember that some ecclesiastical law still holds good in England? Specially the Bishops in the law-making House of Lords. Not my speciality, but I think we are well rid of most of it, particularly the burnings at the stake and tythes, and would welcome the demise of the rest. I think The Archbishop, God Bless His Cotton Socks Your Majesty, is a tad self-interested in suggesting a widening of the influence of religion in State matters.