Independence Day

Subject: Independence Day
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 01:25 PM

Here we are on July Fourth, 2008 setting off fireworks and taking a day off of work. Some will take the opportunity to take a small day-trip to somewhere. Some will touch base with family. Some will set up the barbecue grill and get some good food going. Some will work in their yards or gardens (my plan for the day). Some will just relax and zone out in front of the TV.

      Whatever you decide to do with your day off, be safe and well, and remember why we celebrate this day. The United States of America, as we know it, exists because of the events of 4 July 1776 and the decade or so thereafter. It was an amazing and miraculous period of time in history (not just ours, but that of the world).

       While a certain amount of reflection on that time is nice, we also need to look forward to see what we can do to live up to the legacy that has been left us and make a few miracles of our own.


Stephen Lee Rich

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 01:58 PM

One of the reflections ought to be on how the miracle that has occurred in spite of ourselves. The United States of America, founded in a revolution that split its citizenry, and ats its end, saw 100,000 of its people leave. It took it another century to eliminate slavery and resolve the problems with the British. All the greatness it has achieved, all the good deeds it has donem must be tempered by the fact that it took 150+ more years after the Emancipation Proclamation for this land to finally embrace the whole of it people in the quest for leadership by the best and brightest. We have plundered the native peoples of this land, and devastated much of its beauty.

But does that mean I am not proud of my country and in love with this land? Absolutely not. It means to me that for all of our warts, we are still a great light of hope. It means that the model of government that we created is one of the most unique in the world. It possesses the ability to evolve itself for the common good of its governed. It means that for all the ills we face at this moment, now that we are taking the first steps of change that allow all of our people to take the reins and move ahead with a new vision, we can once again make the changes necessary to progress to a another level of freedom and opportunity. We can start anew to rebuild the respect with our partners in the world community, and we do so by giving respect. From what I have seen, we can treat them with scorn and arrogance, and continue down the path of a pariah. Or we can work together as partners to deal with global problems that will affect us all. I think the latter means a better place for those that come after.

We must, in our revels and self congratulatory moments, examine the good and the bad. We must look honestly at the gravest problem, the centralization of wealth in fewer and fewer hands. We must learn from the past, in order not to return there.

Happy birthday, land that I love. You are all grown up. Have a piece of cake, sing some songs, watch the pretty things in the sky tonight. Then get to work restoring the confidence that the world wants to have in you. Its what responsible big kids do.

Love......really,

Mick

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 02:00 PM

I'm going to celebrate as John Adams suggested: with a bonfire, illuminations, and the firing of cannons.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 02:46 PM

Patriotism has been perverted In George Bush's America, you're a patriot if you support him and his policies, and a traitor and a terrorist if you do not. Patriotism per the dictionary means "love and devotion for your country" but sometime shortly after 9/11 this meaning was lost. Love and devotion to the president is more important. Once upon a time, a patriot was someone who sacrificed for the common good, someone like John Kerry or Al Gore, both of whom volunteered to fight in Vietnam. Now, no sacrifice is needed. All it takes to be a patriot is tough talk and blind devotion. Salute the flag and you're a patriot. Salute the constitution which provides us all the right to give the flag the finger, if we so choose, and you're a liberal, which some consider the very opposite of patriotic. Teddy Roosevelt once said, "to announce that there must be no criticism of the president or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, it is morally treasonable to the American people." That, of course, is pre 9/11 thinking. Among the many casualties Al Queda inflicted upon us is this: "servile" and "patriotic" have become synonyms.

The pinheads are still in charge I confess: Its hard to get excited about America when the worst president we've ever had smirks in the Oval Office. Still, hope is on the way: Even Old Man McCain would be a significant improvement over the chimp and his criminal cronies. Perhaps next year, or even as soon as next November, I'll feel more like celebrating America.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 02:52 PM

Go soak your head, Sol.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Bee
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 02:57 PM

Ah, Rabbi-Sol, celebrate anyway, the pinheads are but a passing cloud on history. To rouse your fighting spirit, see this cat:

http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/07/03/funny-pictures-we-shall-nebur-surrendur/

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:08 PM

Art, I don't get your response. Care to give another view instead of just attacking Sol? By the guidelines, I should delete that post, but I am anxious to hear your reasoning. Sol didn't attack you, he expressed a point of view. How about you do the same?

Mick

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:53 PM

Mick, Sol choose to use the occasion to attack Bush and his minions rather than celebrate our nation's independence. My response was very mild. Delete it if you see fit.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:03 PM

As Big Mick indicate, it was a civil war. The Americans who fought on the losing side were as much patriots as the ones who fought on the winning side, they just saw it differently. Including the escaped slaves in units such as the Ethiopian Regiment.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:19 PM

On Independence Day, Art, I would say that making pronouncements about the administration and the job it has done is much more patriotic than mindlessly waving flags. I know you, and I would have expected you to attack the arguments.

There are many, in fact the majority, that believe George Bush is a horrible President. I happen to agree with Sol's analysis, but I think it goes back much further than Bush. I think Bush is just a patsy of the capitalist gang that got its hooks in back in the Reagan era. I think most moves today are chess moves by folks that have the most to gain from war profiteering, and from the continued stratification of the wealth of this country. I believe it is my patriotic duty to say that, and to challenge those that believe differently to enter the debate.

Telling someone who simply gave their opinion on the current state of their country and its leadership, without attacking anyone in the forum, is IMO, not in the spirit of the Founders and many of our greatest leaders.

Mick

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:23 PM

Mick, why should I attack the arguments? I happen to agree with just about everything Sol said. I also happen to think that there is a time and a place for everything, and this is not the time for political polemics. My flag is waving.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:25 PM

Point of contention with Kevin. I don't see it as a civil war. That would be a war in which the main adversaries were strictly factions in a country, and the political issues of the country spawned the war. This was clearly a revolt against the Crown. The Stamp Act was the final straw for those who were not opposed to raising funds for the Crown to help pay back for the French and Indian War, but who insisted on raising those funds through their own actions, and not on a Parliament mandated tax in which they had no say in the debate. King George decided to go after them,...... and the rest, as they say, is history.

Absolutely a revolution. With a split occurring as to who to support.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: skarpi
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:26 PM

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY ALL OF YOU IN USA , FROM ME IN ICELAND


ALL THE BEST SKARPI

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:28 PM

We will have to agree to disagree, Art. I do so without contentiousness. It is my opinion that days like this are a time for celebration of what is right, and self examination of what is wrong. They are reminders to think things through and appreciate the blessings, and recommit to fixing what is wrong. If we don't do this, these holidays simply become a tool for the "landed gentry" to manipulate the masses.

And...... Happy Independence Day.

Mick

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:29 PM

Wave on. It's a good flag, standing for good things.

It is sad, as Sol points out, that its goodness is being corroded and adulterated, by some of those who say the loudest that they are protecting it.

A

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:51 PM

I agree with artbrooks...today is the day to celebrate and honor the country of the United States of America. Tomorrow is the day to bash Bush or any other American politician you don't like or respect. While I wouldn't have told Rabbi Sol to soak his head, a little time in the mikvah vouldn't hoit. Just make sure the girls are gone. LOL

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:31 PM

I'm flying my flag. I'm also flying the flag of England.What does that say?

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:40 PM

"I'm flying my flag. I'm also flying the flag of England.What does that say?" You're flying two flags.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:22 PM

Ummmm....you didn't get the concept?????




A

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Alice
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:24 PM

Watched the Butte 4th of July parade on TV, where Obama and family also were celebrating.

video, as they call him in Butte, O'Bama

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:14 PM

I'm livin' in a freakin' war zone. Things blowing up just down the road in one direction (I can watch those), a little farther down the road in the other, and some off in back that are probably in some place I've never been.

If you don't hear from me, it means they've taken the hill and either I've abandoned my post or been taken prisoner. Wish me luck. (Just now, I'm gonna watch.)

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Alice
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:18 PM

The noise makes my dog go crazy. It really is annoying. But I've noticed there are fewer fireworks going off in the neighborhood than in past years.
Tonight, though, when the big display at the fairgrounds happens, my dog will bark non stop for about an hour. It's like torture for both of us.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:54 PM

I have ten minutes to wish y'all a wonfrful Independence Day.

Nine now because I have to correct the spelling of wonfrful.

Wonderful

I have ten minutes to wish y'all a wonderful Independence Day.

Consider it done because there are only seven minutes left and at this rate I no longer have time to do a good job of it.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:01 AM

I enjoyed the movie.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:51 AM

No question but that it was a Revolution, Mick. But where people in a country are divided in a conflict to such an extent that they fight on both sides, that's a Civil War. And historians seem to agree that at least to start with the population was pretty evenly divided, with a lot of people trying to avoid taking sides at all.

The Civil War in England is also commonly referred to as a Revolution, and correctly so. There no contradiction between thetwo terms - in fact most revolutions involve civil wars.

It seems to me that using the term "Civil War" in relation to conflicts like this potentially has a useful quality of reconciliation, it has the power to take away the presumption that those on the losing side were somehow unpatriotic or treacherous. If the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia can ever start to be referred to as a Civil War it will be a good sign.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:24 AM

We need reconciliation with Britain because of 1776? That's news to me.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:41 AM

"I'm flying my flag. I'm also flying the flag of England.What does that say?"


                It says we could never have had a United States of America if the founders (or their ancestors) hadn't originated in England in the first place.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:43 AM

No problem there - but when, for example, black Americans are looking back at that time, do they sufficiently honour the memory of the thousands of the escaped slaves who fought "against the Revolution"?

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:09 AM

A new measure of recession could be the duration and quality of the Washington DC July 4th fireworks display.

This year was less than half than that of last year.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: GUEST,Barry D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:20 AM

I don't know that Native Americans view the day as the birth of their independence?

One man's freedom...

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:22 AM

yeah, good point Barry!

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:38 AM

We gathered on the roof-top patio of a house that perches on the bluffs of La Jolla just below the University of California, and brought glasses and champane, and watched the sun, a brilliant reddish blob, slip below the edge of the ocean below. Then there were fireworks. To the south, to the north, and even further north -- four displays. Sea World, La Jolla, Cardiff and Del Mar.

You could hear the cheers from the thousands of folks who had scrambled to thebeaches and staked out squares of space for their family picics, some of them arriving before sunrise, 14 hours earlier.

We sang the Star SPangled Banner--one verse only. The women discussed Hillary and Barack, and the men discussed physics.

It was a lovely evening and a beautiful Fourth, but it was tinged with the burden of regret over the mistakes we have made as a nation. This was offset by hope for the future. Let us pray we can get smart enough fast enough to do enough to prevent a corkscrew dive.


A

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:54 PM

Is it reasonable to assume that the men were physicists?

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:14 PM

...a time to take note of the fact that Cuba's revolution was as important as our own, and we have no business (pun intended) at all imposing sanctions on those people all these many years. They threw our mafia guys, their prostitutes and casinos out of the country along with Batista -- and the wash-water. They have kept the baby though, and tried to nurture it. If that infant is stunted and malformed, it is the direct result of our oppressiveness. Revolution leading to Independence Days is seemingly for some of the countries some of the time--but only when they agree with whoever we vote into the office of dictator of the moment.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:17 PM

Rig:

They were -- one a physical oceanographer with a doctorate in math, the other a physicist.


A

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:47 PM

Also see the Song Request For Bush thread...

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:49 PM

a href="http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=112422&messages=16">blicky

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:49 PM

oops

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:23 AM

One thing that might be useful to keep in mind is that the American Revolution was not just an 18th century war. It encompassed all of the political and cultural changes which occured thereafter. That's why I refered to "the events of 4 July 1776 and the decade or so thereafter".

    It has been said more than once, by people wiser and more knowledgable than I could ever hope to be, that "The Great Experiment" is still ongoing. The American Revolution is still a work in progress. This becomes particularly important in light of the fact that we have so many political leaders who are happily working to realize all of the Founding Fathers' worst fears.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:43 PM

"...we have so many political leaders who are happily working to realize all of the Founding Fathers' worst fears."


                      I suspect the concept of political parties must have been one of their worst fears. I wonder if there's any way to get rid of them.

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 05:23 AM

Political parties were being formed, for good or ill, during the years that our constitution was first being tested. The only one that I'm aware of to advise against it was George Washington. He did so several times during his presidency. I'm inclined to agree with him.


BTW, there is a similar discussion going on in another thread called "What Does Patriotism Mean To You?" if you're interested.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: Independence Day
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:18 PM

There is nothing wrong with parties per se. It is the partisanship that presents the problem. Where were the fiscal "Conservatives" in the Republican party when the Bush and his pals were spending like drunken sailors? They were being distracted by Terri Shaivo and "support the troops" bumper stickers. Screaming at the "liberals" and calling them "unpatriotic".

If Republicans and Democrats were holding their own leaders responsible rather than cheering fanatically for their side, while jeering the other side. The US system would be just about perfect. People need to be reminded that government is serious business, not a NASCAR race.