Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:33 AM

Will you two guys please be pissed off at me and I'll go have the beer with you? We'll discuss rock music . . . .

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:35 AM

This has to be a candidate for the funniest thread on Mudcat

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:37 AM

Don't you come the old semantic based smug arsedness with me Giok.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:39 AM

¦¬]

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:56 AM

Personally, I can't see where you're getting this definition of "old semantic based smug arsedness" from. It certainly bears no relation to the semantic based smug arsedness I'm used to - and I've been practicing it for over 40 years.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:10 AM

Does that make it traditional?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:11 AM

Guys, do y'all know about the comedians who numbered their jokes? If not, remind me to tell you. Anyway, OSBSA. Great logo, eyecatching. This could fly.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:16 AM

There were a good cross over band OSIBISA

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:19 AM

Nah The Pelicans were a better crossing

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:23 AM

More to the point
Will Berbatov leave the beloved Spurs?
Worse still, will Robbie go?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:27 AM

Sometimes teh wilful ignorance here drives me even madder than usual.

Folk/not folk is not the same distinction as
I like/I dont like or
Good/bad
Within the pale/beyond the pale.

It is a definition. If musicologists wish to understand the characteristics of folk music (which it seems some do) or if one wishes to understand the transmission of folk tales, or to study any sort of folk art or plastic art then one needs to know what "folk" means. And the usage ought to be consistent across the art forms and sociological investigations.

It is NOTHING to do with "self centred, semantic based smugness and gate keeping".

If you like folk music, fine, play it or listen to it. If you like something else, fine, play it or listen to it. But doom is not the same thing as death metal, gangsta rap is not ragga and is not trance, and folk is not the same as contemporary acoustic.



For those who actually are interested n folk music, and not in for some reason seeking to describe what they like or do as folk music (why, when they hold the real thing in such scorn?) to following are the notes from a study session I attended some time in the 70s. Al maybe you want to find out who the International Folk Music Council were before sniping at an aunt Sally.


Notes start.:

Folk Song in England

In 1954 the International Folk Music Council adopted this definition:—

"Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission.

The factors that shape the tradition are:
(i)         Continuity which links the present with the past:
(ii)        Variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or group:
(iii)        Selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.

The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from the rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular music and art music, and it can likewise be applied to the music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.

The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready—made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the refashioning and recreation of the music by the community that gives its folk character.



'Conclusions', by Cecil Sharp~

A folk song is always anonymous.
Modal melodies, set to secular words, are nearly always of folk origin.
Song tunes in the minor mode are either composed tunes, or folk airs that have suffered corruption.
Folk tunes do not modulate.
Folk melodies are non—harmonic: that is to say, they have been fashioned by those in whom the harmonic sense is undeveloped. This is shown:—

a.        in the use of non—harmonic passing notes.
b.        in a certain vagueness of tonality, especially in the opening phrases of modal tunes.
c.        in the use of flattened seventh, after the manner of a leading note, in the final cadence of modal airs.
d.        in the difficulty of harmonizing a folk tune.
e.        Folk melodies often contain bars of irregular length.
f.        Prevalence of five and seven time-measures in folk airs.

In giving evidence in 1835, Francis Place reported that ballads sung about the streets during his youth could not be adequately described in present company. 'I have given you in writing words of some common ballads which you would not think fit to have uttered here. At that time the songs were of the most indecent kind: they were publicly sung and sold in the streets and markets: no one would mention them in any society now!



Another consideration.

"The mind of the folk singer is occupied exclusively with the words, with the clearness of which he will allow nothing to interfere. Consequently, he but rarely sings more than one note to a syllable and will often. interpolate a syllable of his own rather than break this rule.

"O abroad as I was wordelkin'
I was walking all alone
When I heard a couple tordelkin'
As they walked all along"



The Greek/Mediaeval/Folk Song Modes ~

The scales on which many English folk tunes are based are not the same as those with which we arc familiar through classical music.
The Greeks were the earliest musical grammarians in Europe and laid the foundation of the scientific system which was to be, in a modified form, our inheritance for plainsong and folk song.

There were seven Greek Modes        (The white notes on a piano).
Dorian (Plato considered this the strongest)        D to D
Phrygian.        E to E
Lydian               F to F
Mixolydian        C to C
Aeolian               A to A
Locrian               B to B
lonian (our major mode
Nodus lascivus)        C to C

"Sumer is a--cumen in", our oldest Mss is in the Ionian Mode.

English folk tunes are most frequently found cast in the Dorian, Phrygian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Ionian modes. Occasionally in the minor: Cecil Sharp wrote: "The majority of our English -folk times, say two~thirds, are in the major mode. The remaining third is fairly evenly divided between the Mixolydian, Dorian and Aeolian modes, with, perhaps, a preponderance in favour of the Mixolydian,

The pitch of the mode may of course be varied, the relationship of the notes being constant.



The Pentatonic_Scale

The pentatonic scale (five notes to the octave) is widely distributed in folk music and is found in the traditional music of many oriental countries. We also know that it was practiced in ancient times in China and Greece. It is common in Scotland and Ireland.

In its most common form it possesses no semitones, the intervals between the notes consisting of whole tones and one—and—a—half tones. It can be played on the black notes of a piano, or on the white notes, omitting B and B.

According to the relative position of the tonic, there are five pentatonic modes, though some scholars prefer to regard them as segments of the same scale.

English songs also show a number of Hexatonic (six—notes) tunes, usually with the sixth missing.

Sharp held the theory that the present seven—note diatonic scale is a development from the pentatonic scale,




Ballads

"'Therefore,' while each ballad will he idiosyncratic, it will not be an expression of the personality of individuals, but of a collective sympathy: and the fundamental characteristic of popular ballads is therefore the absence of subjectivity and self—consciousness. Though they do not ~"write themselves" as Grimm has said - though a man and not a people has composed them, still the author counts for nothing, and it is not by mere accident, but with the best reason, that they have come down to us anonymously." Child.

Romantic Ballads        Child Waters, The Gypsy Laddie, The Maid Freed from the Gallows.

Tragic Ballads        The Two sisters, Lord Randal, Barbara Allan.

Historical Ballads        Sir Patric Spens, Mary Hamilton, Queen Jane, The Hunting of the Cheviot.

The Outlaw Ballads        Robin and the Three Squires, Johnnie Cock.

Supernatural Ballads        Lady Isobel and the Elf—Knight, The Unquiet Grave, The Demon Lover, The Wife of Usher's Well.

Humorous Ballads        Our Goodman, The Farmer's Curst Wife,





Conventional Elements

Conventional_diction        cerbain archaisms not found in common parlance — a song about lords and ladies will use "steed", "morrow," etc.

.Conventional Epithet        "milk—white steed," "Lily—white hand," "Fair Margaret."

Conventional Phrase        Tears "blind the eye," blood 'trickling down the knee."

Commonplace        e.g., the rose—briar stanza.

They buried her in the old churchyard (epithet)
They buried him in the choir
Out of her grave grew a red, red rose (epithet)
And out of his a green briar. -

Opening/Ending Formula         "As I walked out one Nay morning,"
        'It fell upon a..        
        "Come all you young fellows and listen to me.





"Voice and ear are left at a loss what to do with the ballad until supplied with the tune it was written to go with…. Unsung, it stays half—lacking.'

Robert Frost.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:29 AM

That's all very well for you to say

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:43 AM

Let's hope from now on everyone daring to set foot in a folk club makes damn sure they have read and understood the authentic definition from 1954. It will lead to ultimate happiness, and put paid to all the pap that has been masquerading as folk for all these years.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:45 AM

..and build Bridges that will never fall

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:50 AM

Shit, Richard, all I want to do is get up and sing a couple of songs. In that case I'll settle for contemporary acoustic.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Naughty, but nice
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:54 AM

'Conclusions', by Cecil Sharp

I have that song, Richard! Oh, this is SO excitin'! It's on my 'Meatloaf Sings Ancient Folksongs In The PentatonicScale' LP! I came to the conclusion that Cecil had 'the hots' for Maudie, by the end of that song.

"The mind of the folk singer is occupied exclusively with the words, with the clearness of which he will allow nothing to interfere. Consequently, he but rarely sings more than one note to a syllable and will often. interpolate a syllable of his own rather than break this rule....."

No, the mind of a true folk singer is occupied with sex, murder, sex, death, sex, birds, sex, ploughboys, sex, country life, sex, ships, sex, parting, sex and......SEX!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Banjiman
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:02 AM

So what is folk again?

Lighten up chaps!

Paul

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:04 AM

I'm thinking of writing a folk song..... hmmm, how do I start.... erm..... I'll need a definition of what is "folk music" first, then I can settle on some basic parameters and start to think of some essential ingredients.....then how I might build appropriate notes into some acceptable structure...this Cecil Sharp White Paper might help...

For Christ's sake Bob - just write the f******g thing

"How many roads must a man walk down...."

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:06 AM

Can you speak up? I have this finger stuck in my ear!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:28 AM

While part of me appreciates the more academic approach Richard just presented, I don't feel compelled to have a set of rules governing me wanting to sit down and listen to some music. Its like someone saying I can't watch baseball in 2008 because I never saw Joe Dimaggio play therefore the game is different today, or I can't watch a movie because I haven't seen a Cecil B DeMille film, therefore I lack some sort of fundamental understanding of cinema. I do fully support traditional music, and not just of the British Isles. I am deeply interested in traditional music around the world, be it Colombia or Uzbekistan or Mali. But just like sports, and just like cinema, and literature, and art, and technology, I think there is an evolution that must be allowed to move ahead. Some could say, the very first time a piece of traditional music was recorded the music irrevocably changed. Some could say the very first time a song was transcribed in a book, the music was irrevocably changed. Some could say the very first time a bunch of academics assembled at some conference to discuss the state of folk music the music irrevocably changed. I don't know. I'll take your point about it not being a matter of liking it or disliking something, but as neither a singer, or an instrumentalist (yet!) I just know that it is something to be enjoyed, and I venture to say that most of the source singers that we all know and love, wouldn't have given a toss about what someone at some conference said about it how it should be defined. I'm a firm believer in knowing where something comes from, giving credit where credit is do, citing sources and all of that good stuff that traditional musicians do. But as was recounted in the Swarb box set a few years back, Swarb once said to Martin Carthy-You can do anything you want to music, it doesn't mind. A pint of beer for everyone concerned though-can anyone say this Friday night in NY city for my 40th birthday?!!!

Slainte

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:31 AM

Richard Bridge: I could cheerfully demolish most of Cecil Sharp's Conclusions for you...as am sure you could yourself as you seem to know what you are talking about. As could any folkie with the benefit of hindsight. But I won't bother as I think this is neithter the time, nor the place. (Hint, hint, know what I mean?)

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:34 AM

Wilfully ignorant, hardly, living in the past, definitely not, learning from the past and applying it to today's music, that's the idea, and 9 out 10 people don't give a rat's hind-quarters about 1954.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:34 AM

... does anyone know - did Cec ever manage to get his head round tuning in to Billy Cotton on his crystal set by the way - I know he was cursing "this f*****g new fangled gadgetry!" the last time I saw him

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:39 AM

Cecil Sharp collects Billy Cotton, now there's a thought..

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:41 AM

Cecil Sharp: now, he was certainly a folk hero.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:46 AM

As was Davey Crockett

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:58 AM

... but let's get back to building Bridges.... they must of course be built in the tradition - solid English Oak, and in the Roman style - like this one.... here's the definition, dates back a few years I know but they don't build 'em better; it'll stand owt this will - hang on, "Where the **** d'ya think you're goin' with that bloody gret Oil tanker...... Aaaaarghhhhhhh......

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,itstraddad
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 12:22 PM

Bugger it.. now I'm begining to feel sorry
all those bright young ruthlessly ambitious
coke snorting Music Biz MBA qualified posh c@nts,
starting the first day in their first Executive job
as Recording Lable Marketing & Advertising Copy Writers....

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 12:27 PM

irishenglish, I think all you (perhaps) need to know is that "what is folk" (and what is a "folk song", etc." range from tight traditional ones like the 1954 one to the horses on (all music is folk music, I ain't never heard no horse sing a song). The views of people vary within this range and individuals can believe their own outlook is the only correct one.

When it comes to going to a folk club, I think you will find some are more open than others but they will have their own "what is folk?" limits and perhaps bias (eg. the last event with singing I looked in on was all contemporary stuff sung in "American" accents. It might well have been OK and they seemed a frienfly bunch, but I'd wouldn't have been sure if a trad English song would have been appreciated).

I think as a listener stumbling in somewhere, you simply decide whether what is on offer is to your taste or not. If it is, all well and good - enjoy it. If it isn't, wish them well but try somewhere else. As a participant, I think it can be an idea to work or find out what might fit in for the night as well as the above.

I think the same pretty much goes for sessions and theirs certainly no point in getting upset that my "Rakish Paddy" wasn't appreciated amongst the morris type players I was sitting with, that my "Winster Gallop" attracted strange looks in the Irish do I was at...

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM

"Whether or not SL's music is folk or not boils down to a matter of opinion and in my world everyone is entitled to that opinion. So if you like the music, then thats great, if you dont like it say so and then shut the f..k up and dont try to promote those views over those of other people by using academic or "rustic" definitions of what folk music might or might not be."

I've just cut and pasted this from higher up the thread because I think that it embodies many of the problems that those of us who have informed opinions about what folk music is and isn't, and think that definitions are important, face. It starts reasonably enough - few of us would disagree that "everyone is entitled to their opinion", but then it goes on to suggest that those of us who have an opinion based on background knowledge and "academic" definitions (don't know what a ""rustic"" defintion is) should "shut the f..k" up and not try to "promote those views over those of other people". This suggests to me that only the wilfully ignorant are entitled to an opinion ... possibly ...? If so this is hardly a temperate or reasonable view - presumably the author burns books in his/her spare time (?)

In addition just because I believe that something isn't folk music doesn't mean that I don't like it (weary sigh!!) or even disapprove of it. And even if I don't think it's folk music AND I don't like it there's nothing I can do about it EXCEPT express my opinion which (I insist) I AM entitled to do. If that upsets wilfully ignorant people then so be it (that is one of my missions in life, after all!).

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:03 PM

I would love to know what a 'rustic' definition is myself...anyone?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:10 PM

Or Johnny Appleseed

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:33 PM

There's the music of friends and the music of commerce.

For example, when we have a family party and my brother gets out the guitar and we all listen or sing, that's the music of friends. Tonight I am going to a bluegrass concert at a music store. The audience will be at most 100 people. Performers and audience will look each other in the eye and reactions will be noticed. We''ll probably socialize some after the act. That too is the music of friends.

When somebody makes a music video with so many flashing, blazing lighting effects that I have to stare at my knees while listening, that's not the music of friends. That's commerce.

When a performer's personal beauty is more important than his musical talent,that's commerce.

When every number has the same tone, tonality and topic as every other number, that's commerce.

When it doesn't matter if people can understand the words, that's commerce.

When it doesn't matter if the lyrics hurt people by promulgating destructive attitudes, that's commerce.

When the person who succeeds is merely the one with the best publicity machine, that's commerce.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,itstraddad
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:34 PM

If anyone cares,
here's a Seth Lakeman [legal] free 5 track live mp3 download.

might as well have a listen to what all the fuss is about.

http://sethlakeman.co.uk/liveep/

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:35 PM

Folk/not folk is not the same distinction as
I like/I dont like or
Good/bad
Within the pale/beyond the pale.


Yes I understand that

I don't like your poxy definition, thats all

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:35 PM

I drew attention a little earlier in this thread to the extraordinary anger that seems to afflict Lakeman supporters. A remarkable case, which provides food for thought, is the poster called Andrez. By his own admission he had never heard of Seth Lakeman till seeing this thread;said Andrez was shouting "shut the f**k up" at his perceived opponents.
    This all sems strikingly reminiscent of what happened during the Stones' notorious set at the Altamont Festival. Is it actually safe to have Seth on stage at a folk festival?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:35 PM

Why not? Do you understand "folk dance" or "folklore" or "folk arts" or "folk tales"?

And why is it poxy, did it come across an old firebucket in disguise?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:37 PM

Sorry, that got mangled somewhere. It should have read:

I drew attention a little earlier in this thread to the extraordinary anger that seems to afflict Lakeman supporters. A remarkable case, which provides food for thought, is the poster called Andrez. By his own admission he had never heard of Seth Lakeman till seeing this thread; yet after 15 minutes exposure to the music, said Andrez was shouting "shut the f**k up" at his perceived opponents.
    This all seems strikingly reminiscent of what happened during the Stones' notorious set at the Altamont Festival. Is it actually safe to have Seth on stage at a folk festival?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:38 PM

Paul Bunyan

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:42 PM

PS, matt - if you don't feel the need to understand the difference between "folk" and "not folk", why do you care about the definition? It doesn't stop anyoneplaying or listening to anything...

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:45 PM

This is not about Seth Lakeman is it Greg -

I am not a Seth Lakeman fan, as it happens


I don't feel the need for a definition

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:50 PM

Bedford Jail

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM

Ah leenia, no offense, but take away the notion we are talking about folk/traditional/singer-songwriter, etc, and what you just wrote sounds like someone complaining about "that rock and roll" 50 years ago.

"When somebody makes a music video with so many flashing, blazing lighting effects that I have to stare at my knees while listening, that's not the music of friends. That's commerce." Ok, I'll give you this one, a video is made for pure promotion. But I've seen Allison Krauss videos, and just recently, I saw a few videos by Oysterband. Minus the flashing lights, etc, but videos nonetheless. I consider both of those to be the music of friends. Ultimately, it is about promotion, but if you've earned one dollar from the music you make, I don't care who you are, and what type of music you produce, you are going to find a way next time to make two dollars, then 5 and so on.

"When a performer's personal beauty is more important than his musical talent,that's commerce." Actually, Seth looks pretty much the same to me as he did back with Equation, so I don't think that one is true.

"When every number has the same tone, tonality and topic as every other number, that's commerce." That's opinion strictly. If I can sense variety within the 10-12 tracks on an album, there is no sameness.

"When it doesn't matter if people can understand the words, that's commerce." My wife loves the Dave Matthews Band. I've told her I can't understand him most of the time, but its more about the way he sings, not some devious plot of his to make people buy his albums. She has told me at his concerts lots of people know the words. She feels the same way about Richard Thompson, someone I never, ever would accuse of crass commercialism.

"When it doesn't matter if the lyrics hurt people by promulgating destructive attitudes, that's commerce." Damn, I was looking forward to Seth singing London's Burning by The Clash.

"When the person who succeeds is merely the one with the best publicity machine, that's commerce." Ever seen someone with the biggest publicity machine fall flat on their face in failure despite that machine? I have. If Seth is still around in a few more years, which I suspect he will be, a percentage of that will be because of publicity (although see above on videos-musicians do want to have a career), but the larger reason will be talent, which he is.

Have fun at your bluegrass concert tonight. And if they aren't being paid for the show, make sure the hat gets passed around for them, I'm sure they are just itching to make that video for Blue Moon Of Kentucky! Just kidding!!!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:53 PM

The Ballad of Reading Gaol

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Banjiman
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:55 PM

Get out of jail free card?

No.....Mornington Crescent!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM

What brings you to this board, matkeen? My guess is folk music attracted you? I'd also guess that there is some music you think is folk music and othe music that you don't think is?

Is Beethoven's 5th folk music? Or Abba's Waterloo folk music?

If some music isn't folk music, I would imagine you have some means of deciding?

If it is all folk music, I would imagine you agree wholeheartedly with the horses definition?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:00 PM

OT Greg
Trip to the Lakes sounds great BTW

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Sue Allan
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:05 PM

Scholarship has moved on a lot since the publication of 'Folk Song in England', and even more from 1954. I'm with Philip Bohlman on this: the dynamic nature of folk music belies the stasis of definition.
The International Folk Music Council thrashed around for a number of years arguing about definitions before coming up with the provisional 1954 one, which sprang from the essentially conservative voices prevalent at the time and was soon added to with various caveats. The council itself eventually gave up on using the term 'folk' in its own name, becoming the International Council for Traditional Music in 1981.
It's surely a mistake to look for a definition cast in stone: what is folk music is constantly negotiated and redefined not only by scholars but by those who are performing it. We know it by certain 'markers' (and no, I don't just mean modal tunes as the picture we have of their importance is skewed by the Victorian and Edwardian collectors seeking to note or publish mainly modal tunes from singers), and it's formed in a dialectic with other forms of music. I think you need to look at context as well as content, and away from the universal definitions to the particular: individual singers and localities. It's a many-faceted jewel not a slab of stone.

Sue

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:21 PM

By the way....

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:21 PM

200 up!!!