BS: Protest and the Flag

Subject: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 01:21 PM

In our community each week for two hours a small group of folks (usualy a dozen to 15)holds an end the war rally at the local Viet-Nam Memorial. The person in charge of the flag there takes in the flag when they are there, because he thinks they are sullying the Banner or some such silliness.

Normally I would not cut and paste a letter or document --Joe doesn't like it--but pride of authorship compels me to offer to you for your consideration and/or comments.

"[Community News Paper here]
June ll, 2008
Letters to the Editor

Flag should stay in park during protest (Header)

I agree with the [community here] Peace Vigil members and their concern about the removal of the American flag during protests at the Vietnam War memorial in the [Community here] Shopping Park ("Flag's caretaker won't waver with protesters," Wednesday).

No, not with their insistent message that we end the war now — though it would be nice if we could — but with their call to keep our American flag waving during their demonstrations.

I believe in their right to peacefully assemble to make known their views. As they are protesting a war, it is right and fitting that they should do it at a war memorial. Who would pay attention if they did it in a city parking lot, for instance? I have also have seen counter-protesters assembled near the anti-war group. I approve of that too. In fact, I thank them for their support when I pass them.

Taking down the flag when the protesters are protesting does the other side no honor. Such action tells me that those who do so do not believe that they, or our country and our flag, are able to withstand peaceful protest.

Quite the contrary, when I see the flag waving above those who disagree with American policy, I feel proud that they can disagree, and the country is stronger for it.

I have two suggestions: 1) Replace the flag to its rightful spot and 2) Let the counter-protesters stake out the memorial earlier than the protesters, so that they are not offended by the sight of flag and protest together. Or they can arrange to alternate weeks for the competing groups to use the memorial corner.

JOHN [on the Sunset Coast]

[My Community here]"

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 01:32 PM

Long may it wave over protest and counter-protest!

I suspect that the incidents of flag burning a number of years ago are responsible for the "protection" of the flag. It's just my opinion, but I don't think the flag needs protection. Those who might try to deface it or burn it might need protection, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 01:49 PM

Well, they could take a page from the hypocritical fascistic toads of the current Administration and create a carefully monitored and filmed and policed "Free Speech Zone" about five miles away.

That's fix things up and still protect the essential American freedoms, eh?


Ptui.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 01:56 PM

History
During the 1988 Democratic National Convention, the city of Atlanta set up an official "free speech area"[5] so the convention would not be disrupted. A pro-choice demonstrator against an Operation Rescue group said Atlanta Mayor Andrew Young "put us in a free-speech cage."[6] "Protest zones" were used during the 1992 and 1996 United States presidential nominating conventions[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 01:57 PM

Free speech zones were used in Boston at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. The free speech zones organized by the authorities in Boston were boxed in by concrete walls, invisible to the Fleet Center where the convention was held and criticized harshly as a "protest pen" or "Boston's Camp X-Ray".[10] "Some protesters for a short time Monday [July 26, 2004] converted the zone into a mock prison camp by donning hoods and marching in the cage with their hands behind their backs."[11] A coalition of groups protesting the Iraq War challenged the planned protest zones. U. S. District Court Judge Douglas Woodlock was sympathetic to their request: "One cannot conceive of what other design elements could be put into a space to create a more symbolic affront to the role of free expression."[12]. However, he ultimately rejected the petition to move the protest zones closer to the Fleet Center.[13]

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 02:01 PM

The preliminary plan for the 2004 Democratic National Convention was criticized by the National Lawyers Guild and the ACLU of Massachusetts as being insufficient to handle the size of the expected protest. "The zone would hold as few as 400 of the several thousand protesters who are expected in Boston in late July."[21]

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 02:06 PM

Democracy shall only be practiced where we want it practiced, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 02:50 PM

Oddly enough, some of us feel that the Constitution is more important than party loyalty. The Dems' actions are no less reprehensible than the Repubs'.

Maher commented a few years ago that since we're told that Al Qaeda hates us because of our freedom, we seem to be dealing with that by eliminating some of that freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 02:52 PM

They are planning to do the same thing at the convention in Denver, though the ACLU is working against it.

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 02:56 PM

An American friend commented in an e-mail to me, recently that it seemed to her that democracy was a very fine thing, according to some, as long as it was practiced somewhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM

"Chain link fencing or chicken wire at the end of the parade route, about 700 feet away from the Pepsi Center under the current plan, would separate demonstrators and protesters from other convention attendees, the Rocky Mountain News reported."


"Well, they could take a page from the hypocritical fascistic toads of the current Administration and create a carefully monitored and filmed and policed "Free Speech Zone" about five miles away." - Amos


Nothing like a good old bigoted view that everything bad is Bush's fault.

This is the DEMOCRATIC Party, lead by Obama and Dean that is making the "Free Speech Zone". I guess they don't want to hear anything critical, either....

Or are they just Democratic hypocritical fascistic toads ?

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:02 PM

Both sides are as bad as each other

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:05 PM

But the blame is only being placed on one side ( by most here).

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:07 PM

But nothing....
A day at the (Bush) circus

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:10 PM

So, please present an admission that the Dems do the same, other than MY posts?

That is what I mean: Note Amos blamed Bush, even though the history predates Bush, and the concept is used by BOTH parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:12 PM

John,

The quote that come to mind for me is "These colors don't run."

I'm pleased that you see the flag as a symbol of free speech. Thank you for standing up for it.

As for free speech zones. It depends on the circumstances, in a way protesting at a private event is theft. For private individuals or organizations, I don't see a problem with "Free speech" zones. For events and venues paid for tax dollars, I am totally against.

If Bush shows up somewhere in Air Force one, That's the people's business. If the Republicans or Democrats are staging a privately funded media event, like a convntion, then there is no constitutional or moral right for someone else to piggyback on their publicity. If Coke is sponsoring the Superbowl do I have the right to stand on the field with a Pepsi sign?

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:12 PM

Like I said, both sides are as bad as each other. I also believe I noted elsewhere that I really don't take sides, so get someone else to post your admission

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:38 PM

BB, it is the City of Denver and law enforcement who are dictating the Free Speech Zone, NOT the Democrats:

The ACLU is pushing ahead with new legal challenges to the city of Denver's planned map for demonstrations at the Democratic National Convention next month, saying protesters will be penned too far from delegates and the arena. and,

Denver officials and the Secret Service say they are balancing the free speech and assembly rights of the demonstrators against safety concerns for the delegates and others at the Convention, the paper reports.

I find the whole thing absurd, as if free speech in OUR country can be delegated to only certain areas. Geo. Washington and the rest must be turning over in their graves. Are we so frightened of one another and controversy, we have to have a non-event convention? What happened to debates of fiery passion, hashing out party platform AND coming down to the wire as to who would win the nomination, etc? Bah!

Free Speech Zones=free speech concentration camps=no democracy!

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:45 PM

Thank you Rapaire and Jack the Sailor for your response to my post.

The rest is just thread creep, as the topic is not 'free speech zones', but whether the flag should be flown when one disagrees with the activity below it.

When somebody questions, here, whether Joan of Arc should have been emolated, I'll know thread creep has reached its zenith.

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:22 PM

I am reminded of the guy in my unit in Vietnam who did a very competent job while wearing one peace sign around his neck and having another grease penciled on his helmet cover. I am also reminder that the folks who waste all of that good tea in Boston were dissenting. It is everyones' flag, and where does that doofus get off lowering it?

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:30 PM

1. I support the right of the protestors ( on any side) to peaceably gather and present their views. Taking down the flag is of no value.

2. I resent the attempt by Amos to say that the "free speech zone" ( which I think a stupid idea) is either originated by, or used only by the Bush administration. Both parties have used it, and before the Bush administration. IMO it is a foolish attempt to prevent dissent.
However, I do not see any problem with the arrest of anyone who acts in a non-peaceful manner, or who is limiting the rights of those attempting to attend some function, even a public one. Protest all you want, but if you block access you should be arrested.

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:51 PM

Bruce:

I must apologize, not having been aware of this practice prior to Bush's escapades.

In any case, he had no right to bring it forward, anymore than one might have to renew witchhunting or necktie parties. It strikes me as much in keeping with the tenor of many of his other practices in restraint of open communication.

It is antithetical to the whole principal of civilized expression. In fact it is meant not as a remedy to free communication, but against disruptive dramatization, which is a bane to any party trying to conduct business, and I can appreciate that need and the impulse. But it is thickheaded to pretend that this address to the problem is consistent with our highest laws.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 05:26 AM

There has been an ongoing problem over in Ulster for the past six weeks regarding the flying of the Union flag at Belfast City Hall.

So called loyalists have taken to the streets in illegal protests. Police have confirmed that the protesters come from the ranks of the British National Party and Loyalist paramilitary groups such as the U.V.F, U.D.A. AND U.F.F. (such a nice combination).

Shopkeepers and businesses are suffering (in protestant areas), the police have been criticized for their light handed approach to loyalists who have opened fire on them, filmed throwing petrol bombs at them and burning cars and properties. The reason given is,90% of the PSNI live in loyalist areas and refuse to take the same approach to rioters as they do against nationalists during times of civil disturbance.

Loyalists in Ulster must show restraint, they also must understand that the B Specials, Ulster Defence Regiment and Royal Ulster Constabulary have all been disbanded by the British government as all were considered to be sectarian. Much in the same why the Unionists lost control of the Stormont government back in 1972 when Direct Rule was introduced.

Loyalists seem to have a problem with the democratic process. Sinn Fein now hold considerable power, their members are now ministers in the local assembly and control important departments such as education.

It is so sad that Unionist/loyalist community in Ulster can't accept change and realise that the days of treating Catholics as second class citizens in education, housing and employment are long gone.

Let us hope they realise this before someone loses their life.

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 05:49 AM

The laws apply to all or none and should be enforced or unenforced equally. Failure of the law to act as it should brings anarchy and vigilanteism, for the people WILL protect themselves in whatever way they can.

Too bad, too. My wife really, really wants to visit Ulster be won't go near it until the last bullet has dropped to earth for five years.

Subject: RE: BS: Protest and the Flag
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 06:47 AM