Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?

Subject: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:05 AM

The PC recorders and software these days are so powerful, attached to a lap top with a quality mike and bam .. you have a professional recording. I have a friend who does bluegrass, Amazing CD and they are selling quite a lot. They recorded it at home in their living room with a notebook and some GNU free editing software. Made the CD covers themselves and stamped out their own CD's originally. Now they shipped them off to be duplicated due to time. So my question is this, why do we need to spend the dollars on a professional studio. One session will cost more than the hardware and software you need on your PC? I am not being cute here, just asking the question. My ear cannot tell the difference. I am not talking about what I do and that is plug a cheap mike into a PC. I am talking about the new firewire recorder and decent mikes. I swear I could not tell that my friends did their CD at home. It is perfect. What are your thoughts? Or tell me why my thinking is wrong?

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:28 AM

It's certainly possible to produce your own music - and video - by yourself. What you do have to have - and no amount of equipment will do it for you - is an ear for what sounds right and how to get the best from the instruments/vocals being recorded. Sound studio technique is an art, like anything else, and a good sound engineer can make the most of the raw material.

I do my own CD and DVD recordings - and sell them in small quantities - but I don't care for the quality of the stuff I first recorded (and didn't sell). It's taken many years of trial, error, experiment and practice to get to a point where I think what I do is half decent. Your friends sound as though they're quite clued up and can do a good job. Not all musicians can do the same - and that's where the sensitive sound engineer can help. Mind you, I've also known some crap sound engineers and producers...

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:39 AM

Now, I know absolutely nothing about sound stuff, but surely with one mic and a computer you can't record, and then edit,and overdub, a live band recording?You need lots of mics to get everything on different channels, don't you. One mic and a computer is fine for a solo bedroom performance, and adding layers and layers of overdubs,but you can't mix a band.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: john f weldon
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

Why, indeed. At this point it's easy to set up a home studio that beats any pro studio of 1970. The only catch is that the pro studios of today have grown too. We used to mix films from 8-track to mono, and now you go from hundreds of tracks to 5, 6 or more of surround!

We used to spend half a day mixing a 10-minute cartoon, now it takes a week.

Bah, humbug! It's all Parkinson's Law, as far as I'm concerned.

The chief difficulties are soundproofing & sound baffling, and a good mike.   After that, your own skill and experience.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:58 AM

Right indeed, Greg - and that's why I don't use a mic and a computer. I use an 8-track digital recorder with mixer desk and other gizmos. What IS good about using a computer is the ability to burn the CD and DVD master - which wasn't possible cheaply until recently.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:03 AM

I agree. It is possible to to do it on my home computer with my current hard and software.

However, I live within half a mile of a major highway in a development with cars going by at unpredictable intervals, under a major flight path and with construction going on near by.

All of these noises would need to be removed for my work to sound professional on the final product. I suspect it would be cheaper to go into an anechoic chamber and do it right in the first place.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 12:20 PM

a good recording studio and engineer is the industry standard. Also there are the great producers - who wouldn't love to have an album recoded and mixed by Lenny Waronker.

About five hundred music legends can't be wrong.

i think also - it has to be said - early albums like Frost and Fire done in someones kitchen on a revox - its all very well. But a good studio might have got it better.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: john f weldon
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 12:24 PM

EB-
By a strange coincidence someone started breaking up pavement with a pneumatic drill outside my window just as I read this post, so point taken.

A friend who is a pro built himself a fairly soundproof one-man booth that sits on rubber tires and can be rolled around the studio; a "floating" studio as they call it. A bit of a job, though.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM

Lately I've been going over to the idea of doing the recording and mixing at home, meaning that I can do as many takes as I want, and getting the final mastering professionally done -a second pair of ears and a bit of polish in the latter stages!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: john f weldon
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 12:49 PM

I freely admit that as a musician I suck. So every track is cut together from about 8 takes. The software makes it easy. And it sure is fun.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Nick
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 12:52 PM

I think there was another thread with some comments by Tom Bliss on Mudcat which was a sort of half house between the benefits of the ears and ability of an outside producer/engineer and the ability to record some tracks at home and then add them to the professional mix in the studio which seemed sensible

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Simon G
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM

Quote from Tom Bliss's newsletter which arrived in my inbox as I read this thread

"I spent most of August recording in a tent made of duvets and matresses in the bunk room of my house in Alderney - and it's worked a treat, I might add. This still left time for plenty of swimming, sailing, walking and other adventures."

Now that is the way to record. First off you need to acquire a house in Alderney (very small UK island off the coast of France) or maybe we just pick the right week and squat at Tom's place whilst he is away.

Obviously worked as Tom says "This really is my best album yet"

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:05 PM

You don't. There is no requirement to record. However, if you want to preserve something, you need a studio.

"At this point it's easy to set up a home studio that beats any pro studio of 1970. "

Which is probably why I receive a number of CD's that sound as if they were recorded in 1970 and sounds awful to the modern ear.

You CAN make wonderful recordings in a home studio. IF you do it right and are prepared to spend some money. A studio does not come off the shelf. Mark Dann built a home studio that was a center for recording of the Fast Folk crowd in the 1980's and 1990's. A number of similar studios were built as combination hobby/professional endeavour.

Too often, people are mislead to feel that all they have to do is plug in a microphone to a computer and they can sell 50,000 CD's with the results.

You also need an engineer that understands audio - more than what the average person hears.

Olddude described a sitution that APPEARS to be a studio setup the right way in a home. While it might sound good to Olddude's ears (without testing Olddude), there might be issues that make the final output less than desirable.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: john f weldon
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:12 PM

Jeez, many of my favourite recordings were made at Folkways studios with a single mike! Is this a folk music blog or the Philharmonic?

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Timo_Tuokkola
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:46 PM

I completely agree. If you have a decent space to record in (i.e. very little outside noise), and spend the money on half decent equipment, there is really no need to use an expensive studio to record a cd anymore. One thing I have found to be a pain though is trying to adjust the gain when I'm recording myself (that old inability to be in two places at once. Someday somebody will fix that...)

For mastering however it is probably worthwhile to use a professional mastering studio. They tend to have a lot of very expensive gear that isn't worth buying for a home studio, as well as extensive experience which allows them to give the recording the best final polish possible.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: john f weldon
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:57 PM

Timo-
A cordless mouse and a good set of middle-distance spectacles to see the screen.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM

"Jeez, many of my favourite recordings were made at Folkways studios with a single mike! Is this a folk music blog or the Philharmonic?"

It depends on what you are listening for. I too have many favorite recordings from Folkways - as well as field recordings - but we listen with a different set of criteria.   Moses Asch also recorded in a different age and the sonic differences were less perceptible.

With technology advances, the acceptance of poor quality recordings is more evident. A scratchy Woody Guthrie recording, true gems to people over the age of 50, are harder for most people under the age of 50 to listen to for great lengths. Sure, there are scholars and devoted fans where content means more than quality, but that is not the case for most people.

I remember hearing a story of a group of performers at a benefit. Pete Seeger was among the performers. A young woman was havning trouble tuning her guitar and she said "close enough for folk".   Pete shook his head diapprovingly.   IF you care enough enough about the music, you will take the care to present it in the best possible light. If you accept flaws that can easily be overcome, you are just giving a half hearted effort.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: john f weldon
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:35 PM

As to extreme old age (63) I plead guilty! So how come my 29-yr old son loves Skip James, 60's Leonard Cohen, and Bernard Wrigley's earliest recordings? And no, he didn't get it from me, they were all independent discoveries.

Saint Pete was probably shaking his head at the tired old joke. I've got some recording of his, where... ...ah, heck, don't get me knocking one of my heroes.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:01 PM

I think this is a great thread. One thing I would consider though is what folks mean by 'recording studio'.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:05 PM

I remember sometime in the late seventies, when music systems took a great leap forward, a teacher colleague of mine went out and bought recordings of engine locomotives so that he could show off his stereo system to its greatest advantage.

I think where n music is concerneed, if it's good enough it will overcome a few shortcomings in recording quality!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: john f weldon
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:09 PM

Hi Peace! I was about to drop out, it was starting to sound theological!
Also my "recording studio" is hitting about 36 degrees C., which, along with the roadwork outside is gonna drive me looney!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Cool Beans
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:10 PM

I do my recording in a studio. One of the first things I noticed there was that I didn't hear the heat going on (in winter). In my house the furnace is most audible, as is the air conditioning. So unless I buy a whole bunch of good computer equipment, pay for a course in how to use the stuff and record only in October I'm better off in the studio every five years.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:22 PM

"So how come my 29-yr old son loves Skip James, 60's Leonard Cohen, and Bernard Wrigley's earliest recordings? "

Your son has good taste! People with good ears can hear beyond the pops and scratches and realize what constitutes an outstanding performance.   If the majority of people could appreciate music that way, I think our entertainment industry would be in different shape.

Tell the truth - if you had an opportunity to put Woody Guthrie into a modern studio with equipment that could capture more of the nuances, wouldn't you?    I cherish the Asch recordings, as do most folkies, but times change.

I record and edit many of my radio programs in my den. I use a freeware editing program called Audacity, a Shure mic and a Marantz recorder, and a HP PC. On a shoestring, I've been able to put together a "studio"(which seems high falutin to call it that) and I have produced material that has aired on satellite radio as well as other non-com stations like WFDU. I'm proud of the quality I have created, and I am thankful that I have had some good advice and a bit of knowledge from the pros to help me.

I've heard some exceptional recordings made in similar setups, and I've heard some awful recordings made in professional studios.   It comes down to talent, budget and expected use.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:37 PM

I've participated in recording sessions done in a living room live to 2 track analogue tape, or to DAT. I've also done sessions in studios. We've released a lot of it on CD. The sound quality is good, I'd stand by any of the performances. The key to all this was someone else tweaking the knobs, so that we could play. I bought a home multi-track unit a couple years back. It was easy to use, but it mostly collects dust at the house. I figured I didn't have a patience to try playing something with the mic in one position, than play it again with the mic moved two inches further, or closer, to figure out where the best placement was. I've met some people who already figured that out. Like Ron, I've heard some self-recorded things that sound great. But that's not a skill I have currently. I wouldn't tell anyone they were wrong for taking the home recording approach, but you do have to make sure the sound quality is good. I can handle ragged but right, but don't have a whole lot of patience with ragged but ragged.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: bankley
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:42 PM

"if it sounds good, ,,,,it is good"   Duke Ellington

depends on what your personal standards are..... I have a KorgPXR4 that I call the 'ham sandwich' cuz that's how big it is... 4 faders, 32 virtual trax, digital, FX for days, great editing, USB port... sounds fine...I can do a lot with it and have....

but I use it in conjunction with bigger studio(s)... for better, isolation, separation, 'headroom', EQ.. all of that... and it's nice to work with a good engineer, in an pro-environment set-up esp. if you're the performer... there's also a huge difference in a $200 mic and a Telefunken U47 tube mic... and not just the $7800 difference...

go with whatever works, but as Ron Olesko said...there are 1000s of new releases every week... so it's important to make it sound the very best you can, if you're intending to market the final 'product'

If you're just fooling around, experimenting, having fun... then who cares ?

I took a photo of the wee Korg 'studio' sitting like a flea on a 24 Track ,2 inch tape Studer.... sure the Studer has a great 'warm' sound... but at 750 lbs.. it's difficult to slip into my back pocket

so use it all, if you have the chance... try different things.. find out what works best for you... they don't call it the Recording Arts for nothing....

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

It sounds to me through the discussion then, perhaps the best and most cost effective means would be to work it up at home, get it to where you think it is very good, then have it mastered and tweeked at a professional studio. You would then have the best you can without the endless hourly studio charges. Am I wrong in my thinking? There are so many good songwriters that just don't have the money for the hourly studio charge. Wouldn't this approach be the best perhaps or are their drawbacks to it

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: john f weldon
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:50 PM

Ron- Sounds like we don't disagree on as much as I thought. I've run the gamut from hi-end to low-est. Hi means they ripped out all the theatrical recording and mixing studios at the NFB in the nineties and rebuilt them from scratch. Huge "floating" theaters for theatrical surround mixing. Low, strangely doesn't even mean home; I think a small "professional" studio with a noisy fridge and a whiney dog was the winner there.

I, however, believe that it is possible to do pro-level home recording these days. (My own are NOT an ideal example, I'm far too lazy for that.)

Little things make a big difference! Getting rid of two metal filing cabinets in my "Studio" (otherwise known as "the attic") improved the sound greatly.
Cripes,it's hot up here...
...gotta take a break!~

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:00 PM

I think not. What's most important imo is the initial take. GIGO.

If the initial recording is done on a poor quality microphone, then all the tweeking on earth won't improve it much--unless you don't mind spending days on the mix.

There are basically three parts to a project.

1) Recording

2) Mixing

3) Mastering


If you record with a good set of microphones, then you're assured of basic clarity and sound. Mixing will take the various tracks (let's say there are four) and get them balanced in relation to each other.

Bring up the voice, drop the rhythm guitar, increase the lead guitar and give som spazz to the mandolin. (I opted for some reverb on two songs and liked the effect. However, a full CD worth of reverb would be a drag.

Mastering is the process where all the finished takes are set so that they are the same loudness. Say ya play cut one and it is comfortable to listen to at 6/10 on your sound system. Then cut two comes on and your system is still set to 6/10. And BLOOOOOOOOOOM, you get knocked outta yer chair because it's way too loud. Mastering makes all the tracks play well at 6/10 (or seven or . . .).

If you don't have something good to begin with, all the mixing and mastering in the world ain't gonna help it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM

Also, there's a difference between duplication and replication. But that's at the production end and beyond the scope of this thread.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM

Bruce

I see your point, just trying to understand how it all works
thank you

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: bankley
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM

Old Dude, it's good to be curious... it wasn't that long ago, that people didn't have the kind of freedom of choice that's available today... and you're right about pre-production... you can work out most of the ideas at home on the cheap, and either take some trax to a bigger facility to be transferred, or start from scratch, but at least being well-prepared...

I remember some sessions for the 2nd Ville Emard LP... we'd walk in the control room, get handed a hunk of hash, get set up and 'prepared' and just jam ...see what happens... the record turned out great, just 'smokin' , you might say, sold quite a bit too... but I'm glad I wasn't producing..

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:33 PM

Thanks Ron
I never understood the process. I appreciate the information. I won't ever be doing a CD except something I hack out for my kids at home, but I didn't understand how the real process works

dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM

Ron's nailed it in one, I think.

That first paragraph.

I personally have never smoked illegal substances and never would.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: bankley
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:39 PM

yeah, you and the Marley boys, I'm sure...

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:44 PM

"I, however, believe that it is possible to do pro-level home recording these days."

Absolutely! It all depends on what you are willing to put into it and the knowledge you can rely on.

There is something to be said for a reliable engineer who has done it professionally. They know the nuances as well as fixes and tweaks that the hobbyist may not have come in contact with. It is the same with any job. I can do a decent job of painting the bathroom, but I know a pro can do it faster and it will look better. Still, we do what we enjoy.

"I won't ever be doing a CD except something I hack out for my kids at home, but I didn't understand how the real process works"
For that, you will succeed. Your kids will enjoy hearing your voice and songs and the love for you will fill in any sonic imperfections. Not every recording needs to hit Amazon.com.

At the same time, if you do wish to attempt some degree of commercial success, consider where you spend your money and what you will get out of it. You can pay $1000 to get some decent equipment at home, or you can find a decent recording studio that can provide a superior product without the hassles of setting up on your own. It is an individual call, but please do not expect to walk into Staples and buy a pieceo of software and a $20 mic and come up with a pristine sounding recording that everyone will rush to buy.

As Peace mentioned - you need to have something good going in.   (And Peace recorded an exceptional CD!!!)

Best advice - be prepared - remember, you can't polish a turd!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: oggie
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM

One, because of the sound proofing.

Two, because of the experience of the engineer who can set up the right mike at the right distance etc etc

Three, because the learning curve on decent software is hellish steep and how mant hours are you going to spend learning to do what a pro can do in minutes?

"remember, you can't polish a turd!!!"

But you can roll it in glitter if you have enough time to spend!

Steve

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM

(Thank you, Ron.)

Ron Olesko has just said something that's very important to the process: the thing about a reliable engineer. They will know what mistakes can be corrected. Some can and some can't.

Rule one (well, a rule anyway) in studio--with recording--is NEVER throw anything away. Another thing to keep in mind is that you best record stuff in key. That is, A440 or something relative, because if you decide to put a keyboard guy/gal in there and they are overdubbing, well, if you are 1/4 tone out, the twains will never meet.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM

Hi Kids: I'm pretty much in agreement with bankley, Ron and Peace on this one. Get the best that you can afford. It seems to me that if your focus is on music, then the helping hand of a great engineer/big studio can work wonders...I know a guy they call "Ears" because he can pick out the slightest detail in a recording. There was a guy in film whose name I can't recall at the moment, but he could watch a film and stop the camera guy, and tell him "there was a hand in one of the frames" STOP rolling... Sure enough, there it was. I think I got that story from Jack Nissenson.

Personally, I like to experiment, and spent a LOT of time, and money on my set-up. I didn't want to chew up cash in a large studio and spend major bucks per hour, since what I had was basically IDEAS that had to be produced. And I have been through the deal where you are trying to relate your concept of the final product to musicians WHO JUST DON'T GET IT! One size does NOT fit all...I don't want to hear your version of Clapton, I want you to LISTEN. If you are CAREFUL, you can put together an amazing rig...Do you want to work IN the computer or OUTSIDE of it? Got drummers, vocalists, etc. you might want to go with Pro Tools...Since I am basically a one-man operation I went with multiple DAW's for learning and experimentation...GarageBand(Respect. If you have tamed this puppy, you know what I'm talking about), Logic Express, aka Logic 8(read the manuals and get back to me, serious WOW with this one guys; check out SFLogic Ninja on YouTube/Pyramind Recording School, San Francisco), Cubase, and REASON.

Main Mic? Audio-Technica AT-2020 and a bunch of others...

Got to mention Spectrasonics Stylus RMX MWAH HA HA HA, just because I FEEL like it...

My soundcard is 24bit/96K Firewire...Yes, there will be a difference between the big guys and me, but not to the point where the listener will say, "Hey, what's that, it wasn't recorded in a million dollar studio..."

If you strike a balance between all the factors involved, you can come up with some fine MUSIC..

Then you have to get it to the people...A whole other Art in itself...
bob/West Island Recording

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:15 PM

"But you can roll it in glitter if you have enough time to spend!"

It will still stink

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: bankley
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:24 PM

now there's a band name..   "Laminated Turds"....

we stink but you might not notice...

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: treewind
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:27 PM

Of course you can make a recording at home with equipment that is now incredibly cheap where the equivalent would have cost thousands a few years ago, but there's still a lot of skill to making a really good recording, and much of is is skill you aren't even aware of until you try it, start learning and find that the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know.

As with other walks of life - buying a high performance car doesn't make you a good driver, buying a Steinway doesn't make you a concert pianist, installing a DTP package doesn't make you a graphic designer.

A good sound engineer can also make a good recording with cheap gear. Whatever you've got, it's about making the best of what you have available (and that applies to the "talent" behind the mic as well!)

A good professional sound engineer can have incredibly accurate ears. Some mastering engineers can listen to a mixdown and correctly guess what brand of monitoring speakers were used for mixing. You can't fake that level of skill with fancy digital equipment, and somebody with that experience could identify a recording made in someone's untreated home room instantly. There'll be some CD purchasers out there who can tell the difference too, even if they can't be sure exactly what's wrong or why one recording sound better than another.

Incidentally, sound treatment to make a good room is often the last thing an amateur recordist wants to spend money on, but it's often what's needed most. Anechoic isn't best, but the right amount of reverb and equally at all frequencies, which is really hard to do.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:32 PM

Hey, what ever happened to Florian Munday and the Mondos with their Monster hit..."You gotta be Mondo?"

Never heard of them? They was BIG for a very short time way back when..."You gotta be Mondo from your head to your feet..."

See kids, at one time, you were either Mondo(Greaser type) or Colleege(Clean-cut College boy) YA HAD TO BE THERE! O.K.?!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM

Was in a studio once where the echo chamber was the stair well. Eight flights of cement. Talk talk about about yer yer echo echo!

Some damned good advice on this thread.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: JedMarum
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:57 PM

Why do we need symphony halls? My daughter plays the violin really well and we had the neighbors in just last week while she played a concert for us in the living room.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: JedMarum
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:10 PM

Ron is right on.

Some people can make good records in their living room. Most cannot. It ain't the space so much as it is the gear and the expertise - and that's NOT just engineering expertise; it is managing the project. If the price of a Stradivarius came down to the point where I could buy one, it wouldn't make me Itzach Perlman.

Record engineering and record producing are two distinct sets of skills (of course some people have both) but they are at least one third of the value of any recording.

Good performances can be captured poorly and the listener may still enjoy the music - but if you want to make a record that will have real value and will preserve the quality of the performance, your engineer, your recording space and gear (studio) and your producer (even if that's you) all must be as good or better then the performer.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:25 PM

Couldn't agree more, Jed.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: JedMarum
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:30 PM

Gear?

Mics - are extremely important. The right mic for the right job.
Mic placement is extremely important. How many mics, what does the room sound like? What else does the mic hear? Is that OK?
Pre-amps and other electronic gear are extremely important. What are the setting you use for the pre-amps? What about compression, or limiters? How do you adjust their settings?
Mix? What about EQ for the instruments? How do you carve out the frequency range where each of the instruments "live" within the mix and can blend with one another without "muddying" the sound or detracting from another instrument?
What is the proper reverb to use or other treatment to be used and how they adjusted for each track?
How do we fix various errors - such as groove or beat errors? pitch errors? vocals errors etc???

There are so many many little factors that make a great performance become a great recording that you cannot learn them in your living, working only on your own music in a short period of time. No matter how good the gear is, how cheap it has become and how much of a "knack" you have for this sort of thing. It takes years to get good at this. Lots of them and lots of hard work - just like learning play music in the first place.

I'm a pretty good guitar player, but I wouldn't dream of taking a pro gig as a bass player next week. I know enough to know that I don't know enough to do the job well.

I've worked on a number of recordings. I could probably "produce" a small and simple project on my own - but I'm a musician. I want my recording to be as good as it can be. I want a pro working the engineering and the producer roles when I make a recording.

Mark Twain said the difference between right word and almost the right word is like the difference between lightning and lightning bug! I think the difference between what most of us can do at home and what we can do in the studio is along the lines of Mark Twain's comment.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:39 PM

A good producer and good engineer can provide that which the adage says:

Aye that he'd the pow'r to gie us
To hear ourselves as others hear us

with apologies to Mr Burns. It involves a great deal of trust on the performer's part.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:38 PM

JOE MEEK...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxdTq67MRdE&feature=related

For me, the studio is THE instrument...
bob

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: 4themax.com
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:30 PM

Someone on the mudchat strongly suggested that I weigh in on this matter.

I am the Borderline Folk Music Club's webmaster and media person.
http://www.borderlinefolkmusic.4themax.com

I have 20+ years of experience in professional video.audio.photo.web

With Borderline, I am offering the: "Maximize yourself" CIYH.
http://concertsinyourhome.com/host_result.html?uid=akent

My website is http://www.4themax.com


-----------------------------------------------------------------
This is an old issue since the Dawn of Time - either DIY ("Do it yourself") vs. hire a professional. The saying goes, "You get what you pay for."

So should you run down to Radio Shack or Guitar Center, and now you can DIY, or should you use a RECORDING studio?

Sure, you can make a recording in your LIVING room. But will it be a QUALITY recording? Similarly, you could have your Uncle Joe video your daughter's wedding. Pass out some of some of those disposable cameras on each table, and you'll save money on the photographer. Oh yeah! You could get the guys to do some BBQ instead of the caterer, buy some flowers at the local grocery, etc.

If it was so easy, why are there recording studios to begin with? And what exactly is a RECORDING studio? and should MUSICIANS do their own recording just like they might do their own publicity, accounting, managment, booking, tuning, etc. or should they do what they do BEST, music?

What do RECORDING studios have that LIVING rooms don't? Not only do the walls have acoustic treatment (no don't save you egg cartons instead and O.D. on cholesterol!), they are built of acoustically-engineered materials, acoustically dimensioned rooms (think of blowing into pop bottle and resonating), electrically isolated/filtered circuits (fluorescent and halogen lights induce a nasty hum), but they also have PROFESSIONAL quality equipment and PROFESSIONALLY-knowledgeable and trained audio engineers who know how to use them? What's the difference between a $3000 Neumann U87 tube mic and a $50 on sale mic you got at Radio Shack?

And equipment manufacturers, music stores, etc. are in the BUSINESS of selling equipment so THEY can make money on you DIYers.

Even if you could buy some quality recording gear. You could get away with recording keyboards or other line level musical or MIDI instruments. But what do you do about vocals and acoustic instruments? How do you isolate the noise of the recording gear from being recording and listen to it {monitors, oh - I need a control room)while it's being recorded?

There are so many issues which why there are architects, schools, etc. for recording PROFESSIONALS using PROFESSIONAL gear and PROFESSIONAL recording environments.

If home-recorded music is good enough for your target audience, that's all right. But if you want to make a PROFESSIONAL QUALITY recording then use PROFESSIONALS instead of DIY.

And when it comes to your daughter's wedding, forget the Uncle Joe video that'll look like it was shot on the sinking Titanic - hire a professional also. Unless you don't care. It was good enough for Steve Martin in "Meet the Parents" to fantasize about the backyard BBQ instead of Frank the caterer/wedding planner!

Thank you.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:27 PM

If home-recorded music is good enough for your target audience, that's all right. But if you want to make a PROFESSIONAL QUALITY recording then use PROFESSIONALS instead of DIY


My point and I am no expert at all just the opposite. I know software that is about all I know. I also know that the University where I taught had a master degree program in sound recording so it is a science. But, and here is the but. I watched my friends create a CD that IMO (such as it is) as good as any I have heard anywhere. They sold nearly 10,000 copies and still going so others think the same about it. Yet it was done at home. So it seems that it comes down to the absolute skill of the technical person and adequate equipment from what I gather here and not the studio per se

am I wrong? I submit to those in the know, I am only asking

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:44 PM

Skill and the right equipment are certainly critical. If you have a background that is too "live" such as described above, the best sound guy and the best equipment will not overcome the environment. Even a live recording for publication will use the best sound equipment and engineer the artist or sponsoring organization can afford.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: olddude
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:29 AM

Got ya, I get it now ... a whole complete science for sure

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: john f weldon
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:24 AM

Two points...
Finding a legitimate excuse to hang out in a real recording studio can help a lot in developing expertise. I was lucky, but there are surely lots of ways... ...I find a lot of engineers talk to themselves as they work. No harm in listening in! And some are friendly enough to answer questions. (And there are a few crabby ones too!) I will repeat the word, legitimate. Too much kibitzing will not be popular.

Although it's nice to have recording and mixing in the same spot, these functions can be separated. One could have a quiet spot in the basement fixed up for recording, and just carry the tracks (hard drive, flash card, tape) to the less stringent mixing environment, probably your computer.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:45 AM

If you play in a band, do you prefer to record the band in a "studio" setting, or in a "live" setting? I'll define my terms:

By "studio", I mean a typical setup where instruments are either DI'd directly in, or at least separated acoustically from each other. And where some inputs such as vocals or lead breaks are dubbed in later.

By "live", I mean a setup where the band might be mic'ed up individually and perhaps channelled through a mixer, but where the essential sound of the band is captured as a live, stereo performance with little subsequent fiddling around.

I think there are pros and cons to each approach. The studio setting allows individual areas of the recording to be done, re-done, tweaked, etc., until the final mix is as you want it. The possible downside to this (IMHO) can be a dullness which doesn't actually reflect the excitement of the live performance.

The live setting might capture the nature of the live band to a greater extent, but the initial mic setup/balance has to be got right, and the musician may have to do several takes - perhaps allowing for fluffs - to get the final result.

I've been in both situations and, to be honest, I prefer the live situation - the music seems to have a greater bounce to it. I do remember several studio sessions where, after a huge amount of time on quite sophisticated equipment, the resultant CD was OK but did just not reflect the excitement of the band at its best.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: dwditty
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM

In my mind, the quality of the music always takes precedent over the quality of the recording. SOmeone recently gave me an unreleased version of Blood on the Tracks...it is noisy, not quite balanced, and absolutely wonderful. There is no doubt in my mind that a good studio, and even more importantly a good enginner, can make a technically better recording than one done in a living room.   In my opinion, though, the music itself comes first. There are plenty of examples of good and bad in either case.

dw

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: treewind
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:21 AM

the quality of the music always takes precedent over the quality of the recording

With a doubt!
Of course the reason why some non-studio recordings are so good (musically) is precisely because they are live performance recordings.

Personally I think that with digital editing being so easy, a performer can afford to take risks in the studio that they might not dare in a public situation, with the attendant potential for an exciting performance.

Certainly given the choice of a musically good take with fluffs and a boring but technically perfect take, the sensible engineer goes for the more exciting version and fixes the mistakes (possibly with material from the other take)

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: bankley
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:35 AM

I remember a band called "Harmonium" from Quebec.... for their 3rd LP, they rented a mobile studio, had it come to their farmhouse and worked on the project for weeks.... even had some of the Montreal Symphony on a lot of it.... okay, they had a big budget from CBS but went on to sell 10s of thousands of the record.... still a classic,called "Heptade"

also the 1st 'Cowboy Junkies' record... same idea.... set up in Trinity Church in Toronto... brought in gear... had to schedule around other church events..... it cost under $5000, and went on to sell well over a million copies.... 'The Trinity Sessions'

so here's to the 'have studio will travel' people like Danny Greenspoon and The Audio Truck,         just another tangent...

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:49 AM

One thing that struck me, while this conversation certainly points out the advantages of using a professional recording studio - I hope this does not discourage anyone from running down to Radio Shack and purchase some mic's, cables and software on the cheap. If you have any interest in taking your music "to the next step" - which could be an attempt at pursuing a career either as a performer or a songwriter, or if you just want to critique yourself - it is a worthwhile effort to do it at home.

As I've said previously, I would encourage the use of studios and the professional attention, experience and quality you can receive. However, not everyone is ready for primetime and you can waste an incredible amount of money that could be spent in better areas - pay for some lessons or attending workshops, instrument upgrades, etc.

As I said earlier, I have received a number of CD's that sonically sound awful - home recording gone bad.   At the same time, I have received CD's that are beautifully polished and obviously were expensive to make - by the artist sings off key, the instrumentation and arrangements are weak, and the songs have little redeeming value.   They spent the money before they were ready.

Get some criticism - and not from family or friends.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM

I like isolation booths, and lots of space to roam, level entry and exit, decent kitchen and washroom, a place to put instruments and cases out of the way, lots of headphones for everybody, decent cords, good mics, comfortable seating, good stands, good lighting, no smoking, sober everybody...engineer with ears and an open mind, a budget that doesn't set a deadline but rather a goal, an additional pair of hands to run errands & string cords & run from booth to booth...

I don't like having producers wandering around getting in the artistic way unless the project is self-produced by a musician on the session. I get tired of reminding folks to tune, or pointing out that a take was good if the whatever was actually in tune (had to do this again recently with both guitars and flute...drove me nuts).

Recording studios are good for those who don't want to strip everything down and set it back up for every session, and for continuity. They are good for acoustic reasons as has been pointed out...virtually every amateur home session I've been involved with has had many errant rattles, squeaks, hums, hisses, and interuptions (doorbells, phones, animals, pissy family members, and the usual assortment of ambient noises...planes, trains, automobiles, chainsaws, thunder, from the outside world). I'm usually being paid so it's all on the clock, but it's all a distraction which isn't good for creative stuff.

In a real studio folks don't jerk around near as much.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:59 AM

Venting is such good therapy...

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:00 AM

"Venting is such good therapy..."

Vent! Vent! Enjoy!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Timo_Tuokkola
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:14 PM

Personally I like to record as much "live off the floor" as possible, I agree that the energy is usually far better than recording it piece by piece. I have a mobile setup (pro-sumer level, the gear is good but I mostly record hobby musicians). I find that the mobile setup allows me to work much more cheaply because I don't need to invest a great deal of money in a room that will be perfect for whatever I want to record in it. There are plenty of live rooms around that sound great without any special engineering having been done. I'm sure many of the musicians here have experience that feeling of playing in a room and just loving the way you sound in it. Studios certainly have their uses, but I will echo the thoughts of many on this thread and say that the skill of the engineer far outweighs both the gear and the environment.

P.S. when I mentioned the difficulties of recording myself I was referring to adjusting the pre-amps. I hate playing through a great take of a song and then finding that half the track is clipped because I started playing louder halfway through.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:24 PM

Get a computer plugged into the sound board.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:28 PM

If all you are going to the studio for is the equipment, don't bother. You can buy great software, mic's, etc today at bargain basement prices.

But the facts are that if you want top quality, and well produced product, you want a pro on that board who is just as accomplished (if not more so) as you are. You want an ear that gets what you are trying to accomplish and that has the savvy to tell you "that was an excellent practice run, let's do it again....". Anyone can press a button, but it takes a pro to understand the effect of compression on acoustic instruments, and to listen dispassionately to the "voices" of the instruments and the singers and get the appropriate mix.

Save the home stuff for reference cuts. IMHO.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: bankley
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:49 PM

when I was working on my last CD... I was in the habit of recording some acoustic guitar tracks at home (KorgPXR4) , then bringing them to the 'Studio' and transferring to the other set-up, flat, no FX.... for future use... In the beginning the engineer was skeptical, kinda a techno chauvinism, also bit nervous about the fact that I could do a lot in my own way and in my own time... so he wasn't too crazy about the process.... but after working on the project on and off for around 5 months.... when we came to mix... he was asking me if this guitar was recorded here or at home... I got him good !.... plus I knew from day one what I was up to, where the strengths and limitations were of each environment.... not the 1st engineer that I've had fun with in this way.... sometimes, if it's someone that I haven't worked with before, I just say that I bought a cool tuner and a studio came with it.... so it's mix and match and have fun with it.... oh no, where did I leave the studio ???? hope you're not sitting on it, man....

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: john f weldon
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:02 PM

Har! I used to bring in tracks recorded in the worst (truly worst) possible way. The mixers would never have allowed them into the mix, but for my convincing prevarication! A few digital tweaks, and they sounded fine!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:19 PM

Hi Kids: Personally. I have left the dirt, sibilence, rough edit, and a bit of white noise in my recording(The Ghost of Elvis) as the character in the song was not supposed to have access to the best equipment. For me, the weirdness accented the storyline. My goal was to create unique content, both lyrically and sonically. Fnerk 'em if they can't take a joke...

It seems to me we have several camps going on in this thread...Those that want to be recorded in a more traditional sense...And those that kinda like to throw out the rule book...

In the end, I suppose it's what comes out of the speakers, and a truly GOOD song & performance that makes it or breaks it...

Ya pays yer money and takes yer chances...

bob

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:44 PM

If you can't capture the good feel of live performance in a studio you're doing it wrong.

The point is that the studio (ie space, gear, engineer and producer) are on set of tools or instruments that must be mastered. The performance of the music is the other - and that is what we (the performer) brings to the studio.

The "studio" should allow the performer/s to do their best job of performance. That is why we use studios and pros with studio skills. Of course some people can do both (not many do both well, yet) and of course some people will produce great recordings in their living room. Most won't. I don't want to be known for my recording skills - I want to produce the best albums I can.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:23 AM

I can't think of a better environment to suck the creativity out of my veins than a recording studio.
I've made four albums in recording studios and just finished doing my first at home.
I'll be sending it off to CD Baby in the morning and have absolutely no doubt that it will sell as well as any of the others.
Probably better.
It isn't perfect by any means and the next one will be better but it is good enough.
Good enough to listen to.
Good enough to sell.
And good enough for Folk.

Why pay $55 per hour for a studio when two hours of studio time will buy you a very good microphone which will give to you, a lifetime of recording.

The software is here.
The equipment is here and if you are interested you will learn.
If you're not, you won't but to suggest that no-one or only a few can, is going a bit too far.
You know, I've switched off a heck of a lot of crap that was recorded in studios. (and rolled in glitter)

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:11 AM

Jim Lad said:
It isn't perfect by any means and the next one will be better but it is good enough.
good enough to listen to.
good enough to sell.
And good enough for Folk.

'Nuff said.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:23 AM

You be the judge, Large Michael.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:54 AM

"AND good enough for Folk." is what I said.
I have never given a sub par performance in my life.
No matter what Saint Peter thinks, to some of us "Good enough for folk" means just what it says.

To answer the question posed by this thread "Why do we need recording studios?"
We don't but neither do we need to lose them nor exclude those who have chosen another way.

Maybe it's time I heard some of your Studio Recordings, Mick.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: mattkeen
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:41 AM

Having a good microphone (good ones often cost over £1000) doesn't mean you have a good sounding room, or any idea where to put it>

Some of the comments on here really make me laugh.
What do you think the really good engineers have been learning through their apprenticeships?

There are some things that you can record at home, and thats what I do but I also spent years working in recording studios to learn how to do it.

I have heard plenty of CDs recorded by someone who has bought a mic and has a PC, and their mates declare that its as good as anything recorded in a "real" studio - well I can tell the difference and if you can't then you don't know what to listen for>
Perhaps it doesn't matter that there is phase cancellation all over it , and that it will sound unlistenable in mono played by your local radio station, or that there is muddy sub bass all over the place that you can't hear on you poxy speakers - but that someone who pays hard earned money for it will hear. You have a duty to them to.

Maybe you will get lucky or you are just very naturally gifted, but don't go making out that it doesn't take skill, knowledge and training to do it well and profesionally.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:57 AM

It's not luck any more.
The software is designed for the novice and most Studio Software suppliers offer all sorts of support.
For the first time in history, the playing field is actually tilted in favour of the independent artist.
The music industry is suffering at the hands of consumers and artists alike.
Support studios all you want.
They have their place but there seems to be no shortage of consumers who either don't know or care that it's a home studio or actually enjoy that fact.
You know, if you worked as a studio engineer you are rarely (if ever) going to be pleased with a product.
That's the price you pay.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: mattkeen
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:05 AM

Not really trying to support studios Jim

I actually think that domestic setting is often the best setting for recording folk music in particular - I am just making the point that just coz you got the equipment doesn't mean you know how to use it.
I still often go back to pro studios for certain parts of the process (mastering is a good example because I need to know that what I am hearing is actually what was recorded and the pro studios I use have accurate sounding control rooms)

I agree, there has never been a better time to be an independent artist.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: oggie
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 07:29 AM

Some years ago Sound on Sound did a series where people submitted there own recordings to a mastering studio to be worked on by a professional. From memory most if not all of the artists said how much better the final results were than they had achieved.

The same mag also had a series where home studios were given a makeover again by experts. It showed two things, how little most of us know about damping, reverb, mike placement, noise control etc and what the benefits of expert advice and help really are.

I'm currently listening to a self recorded and produced CD. The music's fine BUT the track balances, bass levels and a host of stuff is all over the place. I ripped it down to MP3 and most of it became bearable (because of the amount of lost information) but the original CD is not a pleasant experience played through a decent amplifier and speakers

Steve

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:53 AM

"good enough for Folk"

The words "good" and "enough" should never be used in the same sentence.

I'm sorry Jim, but that statement is one of the reasons why "folk music" has such a reputation among the masses.   While we may appreciate the "do it yourself" and "home made" quality, the rules change as soon as you step in front of a microphone or perform for an audience.

Folk music SHOULD be made in homes, schools, churches, work, etc. The soul of this music is meant to encourage participation, not exhibition.   Over time, perhaps putting the blame on the "folk revival", the music ALSO found a home on the stage.   

Too often, people decide for themselves that their music deserves to be heard by others - whether others want to hear it or not. I'm sure all of us have sat through "performances" by people who sing off-key with instruments out of tune and singing songs that have little connection or feeling.   In their own mind, they are the next Pete Seeger. To the audience that sits through the performance, that singer becomes the image of "folk music" and the reason why they won't return.

Jim, I listened to your samples - and you are very good. The recordings, coming off a compressed MP3 through a crappy computer speaker still sounds promising.   However, what works for you is not necessarily going to work for others.

You also said "The software is designed for the novice and most Studio Software suppliers offer all sorts of support.
For the first time in history, the playing field is actually tilted in favour of the independent artist"    I have to strongly disagree.

You can buy software at your local Staples, but it is NOT the same softward that is used in reputable studios. Sure, you will get a fairly good sound, but you are not going to replicate the powerful software unless you spend the big bucks.

It is because of this software and cheap equipment that independent artists struggle. The cream does not always rise to the top because they are mired in a sea of mediocre.   You can give a painter a cheap brush that is missing bristles and paint that is difficult to spread, and while they might create something interesting - they are not going to work to their full potential because of limitations placed on them.

Your creativity might be sapped in a studio, but for others their creativity begins to flow once they realize the potential.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM

"there seems to be no shortage of consumers who either don't know or care that it's a home studio or actually enjoy that fact."

Sorry, but that is another statement that gets me upset. The MP3 revolution has a huge downside. Consumers are force-fed the latest toys and are settling for lower quality. Ipods and other devices tout the amount of storage available, but it often comes by accepting files that are compressed and lower quality than what you can get off a CD. Sorry, but there is a difference and it can be heard - except when ears become desensitized to what is acceptable.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Mooh
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:28 AM

This summer I had the pleasure of doing a couple of sessions in a studio which was the best of both worlds. It was essentially a pro equiped studio in a converted village home. It was a newer well constructed home with no issues or ailments, largish rooms (a basement rec room and main floor living room), a couple of isolation boths with room to swing a cat, and a decent sized control room, all reasonably soundtight, and all wired! I would have liked a window(s) between some of the rooms, but there was good communication otherwise. All the necessary wiring was hidden in walls and everything was very clean and organized. It was furnished like a home (I think the owners lived there) and had a very comfortable vibe. It looked like they decorated and moved furniture about for acoustic purposes, for the rooms sounded good. Compared to some of the converted churches, basement and rec-room studios, mobile rigs, and laptop studios I've seen, it was the best. The only thing I disliked was a flight of stairs, but they provided help moving stuff so it was okay.

I haven't heard the tracks we did there yet, so I can't attest to the product yet, but it sure felt nice.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 11:16 AM

Just to clarify the above from Nick and Simon re my almost completed album The Whisper...

Yes, the bulk of the recording was done in my Alderney duvet tent (the rest has been done in Leeds, Burley-in-Wharfedale, Whitby and Norwich), but the mix down will take place at Rod Holt's studio in Otley, using his top grade speakers and kit, with Matt Nelson (who's a pro-tools ace) also assisting.

Rod had a CDr half way though the recording process, so he could comment on progress, plus I was using plug-in settings that he set up, and kit that he recommended - most notably the utterly stunning SE Reflexion filter, without which the whole thing would have been impossible.

In places I have even kept alternative takes, because you do need fresh ears to make some final choices.

So Rod and Matt are very much co-producers with me.

I have done more recording on my own this time round, but this was only because I'd already booked to be in Alderney when I realised I needed to do the CD now, rather than at Christmas as originally planned. I'd never consider putting out an entirely home-made effort.

No matter how much you know about recording and producing it's always best to have someone else to keep you on track, and the more skilled and better equipped they are, the better the end result will be.

Tom

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 12:13 PM

I'm extremely fortunate to have married a fiddler whose father also has an excellent ear but don't most of us have a circle of fellow musicians who can lend an ear?
Ron: I don't know if you're deliberately missing my point or just plain missing it so let me try again.
"Good enough for folk" is a joke that has been around for a long time but most often heard when some guitarist has just spent 5 minutes tuning his/her instrument to perfection.
When I said "And it's good good enough for Folk" I meant just that.
I wouldn't be putting it out there if it wasn't good enough for Folk.
I seriously doubt that I will ever produce anything in or out of the studio that I won't walk away from saying "The next one will be better". Haven't done it so far.
That's the way some of us are.
As for the mastering; I know you can spend $1000 on some engineer who will take your product into Wavelab 6 and tweak it within an inch of its life and you will come out with a perfectly polished album.
But you really don't have to.
Studios are great.
So are home studios.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

"Ron: I don't know if you're deliberately missing my point or just plain missing it so let me try again.
"Good enough for folk" is a joke that has been around for a long time but most often heard when some guitarist has just spent 5 minutes tuning his/her instrument to perfection."

Jim, I'm not sure if I'm missing your point or if you are not understanding mine.

I realize it is a joke, but it has also become a reality that audiences and performers will accept ANYTHING because it is labeled "folk".   Not good enough.   No audience should endure someone spending 5 minutes tuning their guitar AND no audience should endure an out of tune guitar. "Good enough for folk" has become a sterotype cliche that the artist either doesn't know how to tune or will accept anything.   The audience is also sterotyped as excepting that behavior. I would not expect a symphony orchestra to say "it is good enough for classical" and they play out of tune and half-assed.

Jim, it sounds like you do care for your music and the quality you put out. If you can achieve your best in the home, then that is great.   Not everyone should walk away with the expectation that they can do the same.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:26 PM

I was referring to tuning backstage.
If you need to tune up onstage, get a better instrument or carry a spare.
Hate that!

mutter, mutter....

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:56 PM

Jim, as I told you in the PM, I like your music. I disagree with the position you took, and the language you used to describe it. I didn't misquote you, did I?

I think it is a mistake to approach song interpretation, and CD production, with a "good enough" attitude. But having said that, I also believe it is fairly easy for an artist to let the good be the enemy of the perfect. They are both just sides of the same coin, and they reinforce why it is so important to have that savvy set of ears, that talented mind, and that experienced hand, on the knobs. I have had the privilege of sitting in the studio with some pretty extraordinary producers, especially Paul Mills. I watched this man work with some of the finest talent out there and coax these wonderful and nuanced performances out of them and onto the disc. I observed him listen to what the vision was and then get that vision realized. And I watched him then use the technology to master it all into a final product.

As to my stuff, our CD's have been out there a while. We sell them at our gigs so stop by and pick one up. You could also visit www.myspace.com/conklinceiliband and have a listen to a couple of cuts. We are updating that site but I think we have some stuff there. We are also in the pre-production stages of a new CD. I will be sure to let you know about it.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Timo_Tuokkola
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:14 PM

If your intention with your music is to achieve worldwide distribution via major record stores or major labels, I agree that your album should have the kind of polish that is only achievable by a professional engineer working in a great studio with top notch equipment. There are many artists however who simply wish to have a record to sell to people at their live shows. For these artists, the expense of recording in a studio will simply never be recovered through cd sales, which means that the home studio revolution has seriously tilted things in their favour.

And it is not "the mp3 revolution" which has caused everyone to settle for low quality recordings. For many people it is more about the content than the sound quality, which is why there is such a huge market for live bootlegs of Grateful Dead concerts. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't strive for the absolute best you can reasonably achieve, it simply means that total perfection is not nearly as critical as some people would have you believe.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:26 PM

"For many people it is more about the content than the sound quality, which is why there is such a huge market for live bootlegs of Grateful Dead concerts."

Very true, but it should be noted that tapers at Dead concerts strived for the best they could get. Soundboards were usually preferred over audience tapes. Deadheads in the taper section were using DAT tapes.

It is also important to consider that the tapes of Dead concerts were not intended for commercial distribution. The Dead allowed recording and trading, but they would go after bootleggers who tried to sell these inferior recordings.

Content is a key, just as we discussed earlier with Woody Guthrie. Total perfection is not critical, but the artists strived for the best they could get.

No offense to anyone here, but there are very few Woody Guthries or Grateful Deads out there.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:06 PM

As King Lear said, Reason not the need.........

some of us King Lears feel the need.

foolish, old, and absurd we may be.....

still that's the story.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 07:28 PM

Go back & read it, Mick.
You seriously misquoted me to the point of saying exactly the opposite to what I had said.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 08:18 PM

I think Timo Tuukkola had it right. For some people it just isn't economically feasible to record their CD in a studio. If, realisticaly, you are only going to sell a few hundred copies at your local gigs, you can't very well spend several grand on a studio unless you have spare cash sitting around. So for people in that situation, the inexpensive home recording setup is a boon. And I have heard some home recorded projects that were very good and that I enjoyed listening to very much. I'm in the process of working on a home recording right now. Would I like to do it in a studio? Yes for two reasons. I think it would sound better and it's a heck of a lot of work and effort for me to figure things out. But at this time I can't afford a studio so I'll do the best I can with what I have. I have recorded an album in a studio - I love it and I'm glad I did. But right now that isn't in the cards, and I want a fun CD of pub songs for pub gigs and St. Paddy's parties.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Johnmc
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:01 AM

From the listener's point of view, I think the content argument is misleading. You might listen once to find out what is in a bootleg, but they don't bear REPEATED listening (which is what we buy CDs for, surely).
    Also, famous artists want to be inspired by great musicians, and they can't always be gathered in front room.
   I have never heard a home produced CD nor a bugget studio one which can stand up against the expensive item when it comes to a group. One person playing acoustic is another matter, of course.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:18 PM

You know, about a year or so ago there was a thread about Home Produced/Burned CDs versus Factory Made and the same arguments came up then.
Some eejit and I don't remember who it was, said "I want my CDs shrink wrapped and free from the artists fingerprints" or words to that effect.
I've remembered ever since and thought it to be about one of the most arrogant, poorly conceived notions put forward outside of the BS threads.
As to the point about being able to tell the difference; I've only discovered in the past few days that a particular artist whom I had assumed was recording at home has actually been using a professional studio.
You don't always know.
You have been listening to home recordings and like me, have probably been tagging all of the poorer stuff as home made when they're not.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: meself
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

There is no such thing as "the" listener. Listeners vary. I have many home-made and field recordings that I listen to over and over - and any number of studio recordings that I have listened to once and will never listen to again. For me, the content is far more important than 'production values'. Apparently, that is not the case for everybody. Fair enough. Despite some of the opinions expressed on this thread, there is no one 'right' answer ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Timo_Tuokkola
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:20 PM

With regards to cd's from expensive studio's with high production values being more worth listening to, I have just 3 things to say:

Backstreet Boys
'n Sync
98 Degrees

'nuff said.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 07:47 PM

Jim, I didn't misquote you, I pasted your comments. The words were yours. Obviously you meant something other than what I and others took it to mean. A little clarity in your posts would help it not seem like such an imperious statement. I have no bone to pick with you, but the choice of words is what I responded to. Can I take from your subsequent post that what you meant was that you shoot for top quality?

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 11:48 PM

You chose to highlight some of the words in each sentence and by so doing inferred that I would give less than my best.
Very, very poor judgement on your part.
Go get your sugar checked.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 09:55 AM

"With regards to cd's from expensive studio's with high production values being more worth listening to"

Timo - I don't think anyone has said that, it is apples and oranges.

Quality of music contained is not a reflection of the quality of the recording. As "meself" suggested, there is no "right" answer to the quesiton posed by this thread - but some of us are sharing our views.

To dismiss the use of recording studios and saying you can get "just as good" at home IS misleading. As previously discussed, there are a number of good reasons to use a professional studio and utilize the skills of others.

At the same time, you can create some decent and worthy recordings in a home studio. I play many such recordings on my radio program.

The bottom line is quality. An artist should make every effort to produce a quality product and ultimately the consumer will do the grading.   I do feel that saying "good enough for folk" is highly insulting to the artists and the audience. Folk music is not some second tier music where garbage is acceptable. When we create such sterotypes, we live with the consequences.   A professional musician will know when a product is "good enough" for selling to the public.   (Jim Lad - my comments above are not directed at you. I've heard your samples and I can tell that you have given 150% to create a product that you are proud of and a consumer would be proud to own. My reaction to your statement, which was probably said without any malice, is because I've witnessed others who simply do not care and treat the music and audience as second class.)

I agree with Jim that someone who judges a CD based soley on "I want my CDs shrink wrapped and free from the artists fingerprints" is indeed an "eejit".   However, I think there is some reason behind that. If a CD is "free from the artists fingerprints" and shrink-wrapped, that would indicate the CD is a replicated disc and not a duplicated CD-R.   Replication is a professional manufacture where the information is molded into the disc utilizing a "clean room" environment.   A CD-R uses a ready-made disc where the information is burned into a dye layer.   CD-R's can have a shorter lifespan and are more likely to suffer from scratches. Unfortunately, to get a manufactured CD you are talking in quantities of 1000 or more, and that is beyond the means of most artists.    I have no problems with accepting or purchasing CD-R's, but I think the consumer should be made aware of the difference.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:05 AM

You know, I am getting tired of the uncalled for comments. I came on here based on your PM to see if I could help, but your smart ass comments have caused me to have a rethink. So here it is.

You wrote the post. They were not my words, they were your words. Your post seemed to pooh pooh the opinions different than yours. The fact is that you are the one that used the "good enough" term 4 times in as many sentences, and it caught me and several others as problematic, and emblematic of what we see with many performers in this genre. The real pro's would never view their work this way, and would have responded to that being pointed out by clarifying their intent in using them. You are the one who made a declarative pronouncement on a friggin' discussion forum and then whined when someone responded to your own words. Lesson for you, Jim Boy, words have meaning. You must be careful what you write, because context gets lost on a computer monitor at times. Oh, and I don't particularly like your smart assed use of the terms you have used on me. If you don't want your words and ideas critiqued, then don't lay them out there. And while you are at it, lose the attitude. The judgement error was yours, not mine.

In your first response post, Jim Boy, you asked me to judge for myself. Fair enough, here you go. I listened to most of the cuts, and it is a very good selection of songs, and they are well rendered. You seem to be basing your challenge on your talent as a singer. That is legitimate, because you have excellent vocal skills, know the material well and interpret it with a method that tells the story/message with effectiveness and style. Clearly your major influence is Tommy Makem, based on your style of singing, as well as the song selection. You seem to work every bit of what vocal range you have and the end result is good. Instrumentally, your style is very basic with few adornments, but you use it effectively and produce a nice background for your vocals. I do the same, as I am not the best instrumentalist. But the areas where your recordings fall short are the stuff that this thread is about. Clearly you are not using a very good mic, or if you are, you don't know how to balance it for maximum potential in the recording. The effect is that it sounds a bit like you are singing into a box or a tube. Additionally, your instrumental balance is not very good in some cuts, most especially where you are using more than one instrument. For example, in Boolavogue the balance between the squeeze box and the banjo are not done well, and the whole instrumental, IMO, is a bit more subdued that it should be. One doesn't want to overtake the vocal story, but it should not be underwhelmed either. There are some cuts that are fine, but there are plenty of examples where a producer in a studio would have asked you to do them over, and that same producer would have mixed them much better than you did. I make these comments because you asked me to judge for myself, and that is what I am doing. You say it is good enough. Maybe for you, but it wouldn't be for me. A very good effort to be sure, but not good enough for me. It is my opinion (which is what, after all, you asked for) that your "good enough" effort would have been well served with a professional ear put on it.

I would not have made these comments, but for the fact that you asked for them. In fact, I logged on to just praise your work and try to soothe your ire. But when I read your last comment, it became clear to me that I could not let your post stand.

I will say this a last time, then I am done with this inane, ego driven horseshit. I think Jim is a fine performer. I have enjoyed listening to the cuts he posts. My response was simply to HIS choice of words. They fly in the face of one of the most important lessons Rick Fielding taught me. Jim, if you want a friggin' dustup, then let's do it in PM's and let the thread get back to what it is about. I am only posting this because of your last post, and will not respond any further to any comments about anything other than the subject of the thread.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:19 AM

If you're looking to bring out a self released CD that will probably sell 500 copies and you want to stand a fighting chance of breaking even (or at least not losing too much), unless you already own a studio or have friends with a studio who can do you a favour, there is only a limited amount of time you can afford to spend there. You have to be creative and use the resources available to you wisely.

Isn't it ironic, too, that so much money is spent trying digitally recreate the sound of old four track analogue recordings?

Also, isn't it weird that these marvellous, expensive studios spend so much of their time putting out arid, soulless, overproduced, sterile, artificial-sounding crap?

And, now I'm on a roll, why do so many British guitar bands use so much compression on their recordings these days? It's not big or clever! They might all be using expensive studios and top engineers and producers, but it sounds horrible!

What about the eighties? How much of the stuff they churned out using the latest state of the art equipment and recording techniques is virtually unlistenable now, almost sounding as if it was designed to make the listener cringe - in a way that many earlier, more primitive recordings don't? Too much money being thrown at recording, too much cocaine being consumed, no doubt...

God preserve us from folkies who want to smother the music with polish...

Keep music raw, that's what I say. If I wanted polish I'd listen to Smooth FM instead of music I could give a shit about.

Finally, I have two CDs on a label that trumpets loudly on all its releases how revolutionary and wonderful and state of the art its recording facilties are. To my ears, they sound absolutely horrible. Despite the excellent music, I avoid playing them in a way that I never do my crackly old Harry Smith anthology or my Lomax field recordings or my first Velvet Underground album or my Kitchen Cynics bedroom recordings.

Sometimes, less is more.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:27 AM

Which is not to say that spending what money you have on hiring a good pair of ears isn't a good idea.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:03 AM

"Despite the excellent music, I avoid playing them in a way that I never do my crackly old Harry Smith anthology or my Lomax field recordings "

What you are failing to take into consideration is the fact that the Harry Smith anthology WAS state of the art for the time the original recordings were made, and Lomax WAS using state of the art field recording equipement for the time - all of which were beyond the means of an "average" artist of the time from creating in their home.

The recent Woody Guthrie "live" CD was made on a home wire recorder in the late 1940's. The recordings went through an extensive processing to create something that is sonicly pleasing for modern audiences.

If you read the posts carefully, it appears that Spleeny Crank is making an aesthetic judgement about the quality of the music more than the technical aspects.   Most "folkies" will enjoy a Harry Smith compliation of COMMERCIALLY RELEASED recordings even though the quality is not up to contemporary standards. Likewise there are audiences for Big Band recordings of the 1940's, jazz from the 1920's and 30's, and other such historic recordings that are our only link to the original artists.   These are gems and we should treasure these recordings, but if these artists were coming up today, they would be utilizing the best techniques that were available to them.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:06 AM

Different companies have different pricing regarding CD replication. Oasis in the US has what I think is the best pricing. Suffice it to say that shrink-wrapped bar coded clouore graphics and liner sleeve cost about $2000 per 1000. That is exclusive of recording costs and mastering. Many mastering places compress the shit out of music and the expenditure of three hundred bucks to master it yourself just drops the cost of having to have a company do it.

I'd opted for the plastic wrap on the CD because it adds a bit more 'structural integrity' when it's being handled by the postal systems, customs.

There is absolutely no question that a competent engineer and a producer can be a tremendous help. However, come the end of the day it's "your" name on the CD and your own call as to what constitutes good. I know from bitter experience that relinquishing control can be a bad thing to do.

Reminds me of the fellow who went to the unemployment office and said he was outta work and needed a job. He said, I'm the boss." The unemployment counsellor asked him to describe his job. He said, "I'm the bos. I go down into the sewer with a bucket, fill the bucket with effluence and pass it to the next guy who takes it to the truck." The counsellor laughed and said, "This makes you the boss?" Fellow said, "Yes indeed. I don't take shit from no one!"

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:12 AM

Great point, Ron, and well worth pointing out that the folks making that argument about the old recordings would be listening to something else entirely had the technology been available.

What is worthy of agreement with Spleen Cringe is his/her criticism of the use of compression. Compression is a tool that is overused today, with regard to acoustic instruments. Setting the levels is one thing, taking the extreme edge off instruments that need it is OK, but this crazy need to compress all the highs and lows into this oatmeal bland sound just takes away from the beauty of the music. Paul Mills gets it just right. Listen to some of his work with Jed, Stan Rogers, Rick Fielding on Acoustic Workshop, or any of the others he has recorded and you will know what I mean. Sandy Paton is another who understands what an acoustic instrument is supposed to sound like, standing alone or ensemble, and masters accordingly. These are skills honed over years of work. Skilled producers, such as these, understand how one gets a total sound, mixes that with his/her understanding of what the artist is trying to do, watches out for the negative unintended consequence, suggest (based on experience and talent) ideas for instrumentation, and is as important to the final product as the artist is.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM

I used to work in typography until desktop publishing drove that industry into the ground. Now millions of PC users think they can do it themselves. The product suffers.

Friends used to be professional photographers until digital cameras drove their business into the ground. Now millions of PC users think they can do that themselves, too. The product suffers.


It's much as Mick describes. Professional quality TALENT deserves professional quality equipment and expertise. We as a society prefer to do it all ourselves, our way. Once in a blue moon one has not only the raw talent the product requires, but ALSO the vision (and skills and equipment) to MANAGE the production of that product oneself.

To assume otherwise is to fall for advertising gimmickery that promises "you'll get professional results with our machinery.

(Have we all forgotten how much we loved those man vs. machine sci fi books not so long ago?!?)

We need recording studios because they have invested in good equipment, and they deserve to be paid to use it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM

"Spleeny Crank "   Sorry about that Spleen Cringe, I should have double checked. I guess that was Freudian.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:36 AM

Banjo?

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:41 AM

That was good. Anyone got an answer?

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:47 AM

Is this Jeopardy??

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:51 AM

"Spleeny Crank": Oi! There's no need for that, Rod Alaska!

Yup, I know that Harry Smith anthologised commercial recordings. I for one am glad they sound like they do rather than like many modern studio recordings. It's not about the music, its about the sound. I hate it when recordings sound too damned squeaky clean. Gimme a bit of reverb and distortion... hang on, don't some engineers us that in their expensive studios to make their recordings sound more authentic and down home? I suppose it's a bit like spending extra on distressed jeans...

QUOTE: all of which were beyond the means of an "average" artist of the time from creating in their home. But the home recordist now has relatively cheap access to equipment they couldn't even dream of in the 20s and 30s when the stuff on the Smith anthology was recorded... as long as they remember to splash out on a decent mic, learn how to use what they have properly, learn how to take constructive criticism and learn a bit of basic physics...

I'm not against professional studios and certainly not against professional engineers. I just think that all too often these things are overrated and held up in a mystifying, elitist way by those who have a vested interest in opposing the democratisation of the creative process... and I don't mean you Mudcatters here.

There's room in the world for the professional studio of course, and the professional photographer and graphic designer and so on. There's also room for enthusiastic amateurs of varying ability. In this Myspace/Youtube world of sample before you buy, if you don't like it you can vote with your wallet. And Wysiwyg, my partner is a photographer and she loves her digital SLR and her Adobe Photoshop (as she puts it, no more hanging around in dim and smelly rooms breathing in chemicals)... and finally, just a thought: my dad runs a walking group for pensioners. In the old days he'd have had to fork out for the design and printing of leaflets and newsletters and so on. Now he does it himself and emails rather than posts half of them to the group members. They may not look very pretty, but time, power, ink and paper aside, they're free. Typesetters may not like it, but I can name one happy pensioner who does...

Mick, how about a Mudcat "Just say NO to oppression by compression" campaign?

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Proverbs
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:55 AM

We need recording studios because they have invested in good equipment, and they deserve to be paid to use it.

Deserve?

Surely they deserve on the basis of what they've earned, not what they've spent?

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM

" "Spleeny Crank": Oi! There's no need for that, Rod Alaska! "

You are right, and as you might have noticed I already apologized for my error.

Rod Alaska - sounds like a porn name!! :)


"But the home recordist now has relatively cheap access to equipment they couldn't even dream of in the 20s and 30s when the stuff on the Smith anthology was recorded."

That is a bit misleading. Musicians were not dreaming of making independent records either. The recording industry was still in its infancy and not every home had a phonograph.

Technology certainly gives us tools to do things for ourselves, but that does not mean it will be the best. As WYSIWYG (a fitting name for this discussion!), you do not always get quality.   I've heard home recordings that overuse compression just as frequently as professional.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM

Simply a typo on my part, due to me having a bit much on my mind just now. I am referring to the instrument he is plucking at the beginning. I assume it is an Irish bouzouki or an octave mando. By the way, the whistle in that song is a bit strong, to my ear. Again, it appears that a studio would have improved this from a good showing to a great showing.

Another area that a good producer/studio will help you with is song selection, and arrangement. I understand that this is a collection of ballads, but a good producer would have had a bit to say about the song selection, probably encouraging you to try to pick it up a bit through song selection and arrangement. Even the very comical song about dancing around in the wife's undergarments was sung as a slow ballad. I just might play around with that one meself.

Look, Jim, this is a very good effort. Nothing in these comments by me is intended to take away from that. I envy you your voice, and clearly you have paid attention to some great performers over the years. I don't even begrudge anyone the idea that self production allows many, whom otherwise would not be able to be heard, to get their music out there. But any contention that self production is "good enough for folk" just rings discordantly to me. I have heard some pretty good ones, but I have never heard a home studio job that I would compare to the great jobs done by the producers I know and have listened to. I may use my own Sonar software to record reference tracks to send to the wonderful producer I will be using on my own solo project, but I will leave the recording, mixing, etc. to him. And we will have long conversations during the planning and implementation phases.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:21 PM

Many of them exist solely on government grants. I was delighted to see the Canadian Government cut back on factor grants for the simple reason that many studios are getting kids in there for x number of hours, just to push out a product that will satisfy the grant criteria.
Spleen Gland: You have made several valid points most of which have been made on other threads at one time or another.
Nowadays you have to work at taking the polish out of the recording as opposed to the analog days where every gap had to be filled just to bury the hiss.
As for compression... The music is compressed to death and our ears are getting lazy because of it.
Try listening to classical music (where this happens less) in your car and you'll see what I mean. You'll spend so much time twiddling the volume control that you won't get a chance to use the mobile phone at all.
In short, the type of sound you put out is an artistic choice but try getting a studio to do that for you.
Mick: Every instrument is placed exactly where I want it and the Tenor Guitar is deliberately understated for reasons that the spleen guest has so aptly pointed out.
Oh and I've finally come up with the answer to "What is Folk?".

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

Yup, I noticed after I'd posted - thank you Ron...

"Spleen Gland"? Spleen Gland! Bug Jam, the name-mangling is getting out of hand...

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:30 PM

"In short, the type of sound you put out is an artistic choice but try getting a studio to do that for you."

IF you cannot get the studio to give you the choice you are looking for, you are either in the wrong studio or ignoring logic.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM

NO to oppression by compression!

No to parametric equalisation without representation!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:38 PM

Let's start an IWW chapter based on this. Worldwide strike action!!!! Man the virtual barricades......!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM

The album is exactly what I intended it to be.
The Lingerie song was deliberately sung slowly for that album to mess with your head. By the way, do what you want with it. I'll never take a penny from any artist for doing my stuff. Never!
I don't need a producer to mess around with my creativity.
That's the whole point of the discussion as far as I'm concerned.
The next one will be lively. A point that I made at my Mixcraft Live Blog last night.
As for "Albums" and this probably warrants a thread of its own, there are no more albums.
You put out a selection of songs and people choose the ones they want.
Anyway, there hasn't really been one since the "White".

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

Let's take action without delay ithout delay out delay elay!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:16 PM

"As for "Albums" and this probably warrants a thread of its own, there are no more albums.
You put out a selection of songs and people choose the ones they want."

Technically, an "album" is a device for holding a collection - a photo album, a stamp album, a record album. I still refer to CD's as "albums".

But, it is a very good point. In this digital age people are less concerned with "concepts" and instead listen to individual songs, getting back to the days of 45's and 78's!    I still enjoy a CD that is programmed to be heard from beginning to end - the new Pete Seeger CD "At 89" does exactly that.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 02:10 PM

And still the vast majority of sales are probably single choices through I Tunes.
Artists are partly to blame for trying to fill every last minute of a CD. It's just too much.
Record Albums used to refer to a collection of discs in a box.
It seems to have changed to a collection of songs on a disc.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 02:16 PM

I'm not sure if the change is necessarily a bad thing.   Too often I've received CD's that have been primarily filler. One or two good songs and then a collection of ho-hum songs.

I think one of the good things about the digital age is that we do not need to wait until an artist has a full album worth of material. Tom Paxton and John McCutcheon are examples of two artist who release topical songs on their websites - songs that are timely and worth sharing today, not in 10 months after an entire album has been recorded, mixed, marketeted, etc.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 03:07 PM

Good or bad? Mostly good.
A bit of both I suppose but it does alter the way you approach putting an album together.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 03:13 PM

"but it does alter the way you approach putting an album together."

Just a different mindset.   We have become accustomed to the need for a collection of songs, but do we really need that?   Do we remember Buddy Holly for his albums or for his songs?

The Harry Smith Anthology was a collection of commercially released '78s. I would say it is only the last 50 years or so that we became involved in the concept of albums.   Perhaps going to a format where individual songs are more important to the listener is going to be a good thing.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 03:47 PM

I insist on calling my CDs albums. That is no through back to the old LPs. I use the term because that is exactly what they are! As Ron says, a collection of artworks.

And I put a lot of thought into the contents, the presentation and the order. I know some people think of the album as a bunch of individual songs - but my purpose is to create a package that will be listened to, hopefully over and over.

I also purposely think about the length of each track; is it the correct length for the arrangement? And the length of the overall album - I am convinced that about 45 to 50 minutes is perfect. That is because it is about the attention span of our current listening audience - it is about the length of time for TV shows, for concert sets, etc.

I am once again in fierce agreement with Ron on this subject. Each album, to me - has an overall plan, theme and progression. This is true for me,even in the face of the changing habits of the listening audience. I know that people who buy my new album will download it to their IPODS and select their favorites into playlists - but they will also play the CD sometimes (maybe in the car) and their favorite tracks will evolve.

AND even though I strongly support using the pro studio and audio pros, I understand that some of us can do a good job making their own recordings. Obviously the music/performance is the most important element.

One more thing; if you cannot get the "real" feel of the music in the studio because of the gear or the approach your producer or engineer choose, you are doing it wrong. I am not thrilled about using a click a track - but we sorted out ways to make it work when it was needed.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 04:07 PM

Oooops!

through back - should be throw back!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 04:12 PM

Ron, I think you and Jim have both hit on an important aspect of the digital revolution. It does have the effect of causing one to give a lot of thought to the whole collection. Having had a lot of exposure to Jed, I can tell you that he always approaches the whole CD/album as a collection. The arrangement of the songs is a portrait he is putting together. These days, with individual downloads, one does not have the filler option as much as one did before. Gives the buyer a lot more latitude and causes the artist to approach the promotion a different way.

It also puts the actual CD in a different weight class. What used to be the prime way of selling ones music now becomes a product one sells by using individual tracks and live performances. My guess is that it also will be the second most popular way to sell one's music.

Jim, I always pay the artist when I record their music. Should I record your song, I will send the money. I believe one's work should be compensated. Comes from organizing workers, and being a union guy my whole life. Perhaps it is a cultural difference. One idea, should someone record one of your songs, might be to donate the proceeds to a charity you admire. I listened to that song and could just see, with the right setup (as I am sure you use), it could be a very funny song presentation.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM

Actually, I have a wee dance that I do during the chorus and a few facial expressions that get some laughs.
Music is for sharing.
I have no need for more money.
Me wife has a great job and can always get another.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:27 PM

Geez, I almost wish I hadn't read this thread. I'm in the process of making a new CD of old stuff that I did way back in venues from Morticia's living room to a bluegrass festival. All field recordings, none anywhere near perfect, but, as most of you know, I am not able to re do any of them.Maybe I just won't ask for opinions.

My first album, "Lights along the shore" was done in a studio, and by the time I finished it I was so sick of the songs I avoided singing them for years afterwards.
In "Beginner's Luck" there was a chair squeek and a missed chord, but by the time we caught them it was too late. No one has ever commented on those mistakes.

I have a copy of Jim's new CD and I like it.He reminds me of Martyn Wyndham Reid.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:11 PM

No worries - each album has a different set of requirements and if you're purposely collecting recordings from various sources, then that is your starting. The best thing to do is find yourself a seasoned pro with the right gear and edit, remix (where possible) and master the collection. The technology exists today to make a great compilation form various sources, and make them work well together.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 07:26 PM

I have such a man. He's a genius, but I don't expect him to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: meself
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 07:32 PM

Just do it, Kendall!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 07:57 PM

This afternoon I listened to two new CDs and they both sound fine.

Gary Koonce has one out and so does Jim Brannigan. Beautiful voices both. Good material. I got a real kick out of Jim's liner notes and his voice. Good tenor.

Gary has a more formal approach to the traditional material he does, but that's fine, too.

Kendall, there will aloways be those who bitch and complain about whatever a performer does. Sometimes it just plain jealousy on their part. In a word, f**k 'em. However, the advice about mixing and mastering given in an earlier post is good advice. Take it. Hell, why do so many people want perfection? Ain't ['damned good' enough? Sheesh!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 08:20 PM

Do it, Kendall.
Bruce, Your album is sitting on my wife's desk and she's working late.
Looks like I'll have to wait.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:21 PM

I was partly joking, I'm already doing it. As the Buffalo said, "Let the chips fall where they may."

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: DebC
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:04 PM

Wow. What an excellent discussion. I don't think I can add to it, except to give you my own experience with my newest CD, "Fond Desire Farewell". I am so proud of this work and I think it's really my best yet. And I am not usually that positive about my own stuff. I *am* my own worst critic.

I've done it all recording-wise...I recall back in 1988, the quartet I was in was a guinea pig for a recording engineer student's senior project at University, and it sounds like it. But the music was really really good! You can judge for yourself HERE

My last two solo CDs were done in home studios, but both studios had really nice mics, serious Pro-Tools recording software and good engineers. Both CDs were mastered. Even though people liked the CDs (and I like them too) I felt that they could have been better, but I didn't know how or what I was missing. This applies more to the process than the result, though I do question some things sonically in the finished products.

For "Fond Desire Farewell" I decided to pull out all the stops (and lots of $$$) and hire Dave Mattacks to produce. That has made ALL the difference in my past work and this new project. In the past I always felt like I had no idea what I was doing, kind of stumbling around in the world of recording. I had to make all the technical decisions, an area where I don't really have that kind of expertise.

But...most of the new CD was recorded in a home studio. We did go to a "Big Boy Studio" (Dave's words) to lay down the foundation tracks in isolation rooms. We then recorded the other instruments and vocals in a home studio with no sound proofing. This proved to give us some hilarious instances involving birds, planes and a loud neighbor.

The tracks are now in the final stage of being mixed by a separate engineer whose specialty is mixing. I am blown away by the results.
We master at the end of this month.

Dave has been with me every single step of the way, from choosing the material all the way to seeing this through promotion. For myself, the entire process was worth every dollar spent and the experience was one that I do hope to repeat at some time. I really feel like I didn't pay him enough and the amount of time and energy he (and our main engineer) put in was extraordinary, I think.

For me, Recording has always been a chore and something I never liked. This project was different. Maybe it was the fact that I wasn't in charge. When it came my turn to sing, it seemed so easy. Not sure why, but it was.

Sorry to go on so long.

Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:19 PM

Deb,

    We had that experience with Ken Brown and earlier with our recording wizards Paul Stamler and Paul Goelz. An outside voice can help a lot.

--Phil

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:37 PM

Deb - Sounds like a wonderful - and educational - experience. And that's the way to do it if a person is able. I just would not want to discourage someone from doing a recording in a more humble fashion IF that is the best they can manage, given the financial and other circumstances of their life.

I recorded a CD this summer - I had two days to do it, and I did. It is full of, um, "imperfections", and I would like to have a month to re-do it, but I don't. On the other hand, I feel it does capture a certain feeling worth capturing, and will communicate something worth communicating to at least some listeners, and it was the best I could do under the circumstances. It's like marriage or having children: if you wait till "the time is right", you may never do it ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: DebC
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:46 PM

Paul Stamler is amazing. I first heard his touch on Julie Henigan's CD American Stranger, which is one of my favorite recordings. I am not familiar with Ken, but yes, having a "boss" really helps.

Deb

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:28 AM

The problem with recording studios - for me - is that I, or the bands I played in, could never afford to use a decent one. There are several studios in my area and the boogie'n blues band that I used to play in (until recently) used a couple of these studios to make our one and only CD. We cut it mainly live with vocals and some instrumental solos overdubbed later. To me, it sounded dull and lifeless and just didn't capture the excitement and feel of the band's live playing. This was all around 8 years ago, and we used the studios that we could afford, which wasn't a huge amount. The engineers were very competent and professional, and the equipment seemed up-to-date - but (sigh) it just lacked that "Something" that made the band what it was.

I now use some kit at home to make my own recordings - this is a humble sample:


Blue Monk

It's not perfect, by a long way, but it captures how I play live - for better or worse - and therefore, to me, is more satisfying. And because I make no claim for the music, it's free to anyone who wants to listen to it or download it (which may not be many!)

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Timo_Tuokkola
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:30 AM

Down with ProTools!
Down with DigiDesign!
Long live Logic Pro!

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: treewind
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:20 AM

Paul Stamler is certainly one of the good guys. Did you know he discovered a mod* to the humble Shure SM57 microphone that costs single-digit pennies and makes it sound like a mic worth 3x the price when plugged into a typical modern mixer or preamp?

Anahata

*680 ohm resistor between pins 2 and 3 on the XLR cable connector

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: DebC
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:59 AM

Wow, Anahata (great to see you on here as always) I didn't know that about Paul and I am certainly not surprised.

I also understand that economics is the deal-breaker for many, if not most artists. It is an expensive process, to make a recording. If someone chooses to make a recording at home, I really am in no position to criticise. I think that it does really all come down to goals for the recording.

I guess it's kind of like my car. I have no idea about cars except how to drive them, put gas in them, and add oil. I go to my car mechanic for anything more complicated than that. For me, it's the same with recording. I need to have someone who has the knowledge and tools to do a recording when I want to make a record.

Great thoughts, folks.

Deb

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:59 PM

Paul had mistakenly said to Margaret and me at one point, "if you want to make a recording, I'll engineer it for free." We did it live to two track analogue tape in the ball room at the David Adler Cultural Center, after hours. This was 1984. We made him a 1/4 partner in the tape proceeds, rather than take his work for free. The result was a tape called "Very Carefully." While no longer in print, I think the results were great. Paul recorded several more of our CD's over the years (you can hear the results on our myspace and websites from the Pretty Susan CD or the Lady's Triumph CD). You can pm me for the addresses if you want to hear them. All were done direct to two track or to DAT, no overdubs.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:24 AM

Greetings Anahata.

Hadn't heard about the "mod" on an SM58.
Have you tried it???

Must go look for my soldering iron, and have a go.
It's worth possibly ruining a mic cable (You haven't seen my soldering!!) to find out.

Best to you and Mary

Ralph. Now back to the topic in hand.

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: treewind
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 03:17 AM

Hi Ralphie.
It was in Recording Magazine January 2002, allegedly.
It keeps the 57's presence peak but damps some nasty resonances making it smoother. The SM57 was designed for transformers; the resistor makes the improvement on transformerless preamps. Ideally you calculate the value so the mic sees about 500 ohms, including preamp input.

No, I haven't actually tried it - the thing to do is put the R in a short M-F XLR cable and label it carefully!
One day, in my copious spare time...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Why do we need Recording Studios?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 03:43 AM

Cheers Old Mate!

(Yes, I did mean SM57!!)
Like you, need a window of opportunity,
but, an interesting idea, nonetheless.

Thanks mate

Ralphie.

PS. Must show you my Polyphonic Spree Copper Microphone sometime.
Made from genuine US Carbon Granule technology!
Getting back to the subject of this thread, I'm experimenting with it to try and re-create old Alexander Prince cylinders. Even using the original surface noise, looped many times.
Doing it all at home too.
Couldn't imagine many commercial studios would want to waste their time on such a project!

All that money invested in the best equipment just to produce the sound of a crackly telephone!!