BS: Why is America Great?

Subject: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 11:29 AM

Why America is Great

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM

Wrong question.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: mg
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:22 PM

Great natural resources, water, counterbalances to a caste system, which of course exists anyway, a strong constitution, tolerance if not delighted welcome to new immgirants, religions that did probably more good than harm in the long run, a basic sense of decency and self-reliance, combined with strong rural communities, neighborhoods, etc. Far from perfect, with many huge shames, the three biggest but far from exlusive being slavery, treatment of Native Americans and treatment of some veterans. Lots more could be added. But the wheel keeps turning and those wrongs are being acknowledged and new ones will spring up and later be corrected. A belief that runs through the country that there is a place called America and it does stand for something, regardless of snippy people constantly trying to nip away at it like termites in your porch. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM

Many countries are great, and for many reasons. A great country can be badly misled.

America, Russia, China, Great Britain, France, Spain, Japan, Brazil...they are all great countries. And there are others. Many others. They can all be badly misled.

To constantly blather on in popular propaganda about your own country being "the greatest country in the world" is one very common way of misleading a nation. The Nazis thought that Germany was the greatest country in the world.

There is no greatest country in the world. No one should ever make such a claim. If they do, it is with the implicit intention of subjugating others and building an empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:47 PM

Now now Little Hawk ye ken thats no quite tru :)

The story of how

God created SCOTLAND


The Story of Scotland.

In the beginning when God was creating the world,
He was sitting on a cloud,
telling his pal the Arch Angel Gabriel
what he planned for Scotland.


" Gabby" says He "I'm going to give this place high majestic mountains, purple glens, soaring eagles, streams laden with salmon, golden fields of barley from which a whisky coloured nectar can be made, green, lush, spectacular golf courses, coal in the ground, oil under the sea,...gas".


" Hold up! Hold up!"

Interjected the bold Gabriel

" Are you not being too generous to these Scots ? "

Back came the Almighty's reply

" Not really, wait until you see the
neighbours I'm giving them !!! "

*ducks and heads for Jaqui's basment

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Janie
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM

Good one, Donuel!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM

Yes, Megan.... (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 02:25 PM

Another vote for Megan! (I gotta remember that.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:46 PM

I'm not sure it is, any more.

And neither are the States United.

Time for a massive rethink about what went wrong with its ideals of democracy and freedom.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:33 PM

Many people inside the USA feel their country is not olly great, but God's chosen country. Seems that it is because they view the rest of the world from the inside the USA perspective. I suspect there is also some nationalistic brainwashing in schools and on TV.

Outside the USA, in 90 opercent of the rest of the world, the USA is not viewed this same way. In my travels, have found similar unrealistic thinking in small isolated islands. In those cases, I found it "cute". Can't say the same for the "we are the greatest" USA attitude, by some. To many I have been told it is viewed as arrogant and rude. (Let me say that there are many USA folks I have met that have a more realistic global vision).

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:00 PM

No country has a corner on rude. The problem is, only the well to do can afford to travel, so all you see in other countries are the assholes who think they came from paradise. I've seen behavior that made me ashamed that I was an American.

In St. Maartin I was having a drink at a pub, and there was a couple there from Canada. We fell to talking and I noticed that he had a little Maple leaf pin on his shirt. I asked why Canadians wear those pins. (It's been my experience that Canadians are not overly patriotic) and he blushed, and was quite uncomfortable. I insisted he tell me, and he did. "Because we don't want to be mistaken for Americans." I said, "Do you have a spare"? he bought me a drink.

In Barbados my wife and I were on a bus and there was a gang of footballers from east London making asses of themselves, forcing the driver (who was black) to stop so they could buy more beer. It was against company rules but did they care if he got fired? They were calling the natives "Spooks". I was glad I wasn't British that day.

Again in St. Maartin, a woman tourist from NY city was ordering a cab driver around, yelling at him to move faster like he was her servant.

And we wonder why foreigners call us arrogant. Is America great? Well, if you consider that we probably have more assholes per capita than any other country I have ever visited, maybe it is. But, we are not unique!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:08 PM

Nah Kendall ye dinny hae mair per capita it jist that in America ye dae things big.

Mind you you should hae seen the luk on the Big Americans face when the Shetland bus driver got fed up wie bein telt how much bigger everything wis. "Thats nothin" says the driver "At our airport we have a runway that goes all the way from the North sea tae the Atlantic Ocean." they drive on a bit along a single track road with water at both sides at one side of the airport and the driver stops the bus. "Ladys and gentlemen that is the Atlantic, and that is the North Sea" all of 15 foot apart :)I met one of the other Americans on the bus a few days later he was still smiling at the peace they got.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:20 PM

I'm reminded of Mark Twain's quote - "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when they deserve it."

It is easy to whine and complain. For some, knocking America is great sport and I suspect it becomes Viagra for a lack of respect that they are missing in their lives.

We cannot ignore problems, and there are certainly many things to fix. We cannot blindly follow leaders because we have a card that says we belong to the same party,or they deserve respect solely because they hold the job of governing.

There are plenty of reasons to be proud of this country and I defy those to deny it. The best reason is the people. When you peel away the layers, you find a core that is full of caring and hard working people. Creative people. Concerned people. People who work for change.

I'm sure this thread will reach triple digits with all the usual Mudcat Cranks who have nothing better to do than grind their ax. If they wish to waste their miserable lives that way, who can stop them. There are more people on Mudcat who do make a difference and refuse to live as pessimists. These are the folks who make a change and do not create division. The true colors are here to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:21 PM

GOOD one, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:27 PM

True, there are far toon many assholes from most nations.
But, these folks from most countries seem to be satisfied to be identified as only assholes.
Unfortunately, IMO, assholes from the USA go out of their way to be idetified as American assholes.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 11:35 PM

And American assholes are great!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 12:03 AM

Some years back a friend and I where quite viciously accused of being Americans by some Yankee hating Irish assholes, at an illegal after hours booze can in Galway City ... They would not believe we were Canadians ... emotions got out of control to the point of being physical when my friend retorted "calling us Americans, is the same as calling you Brits' ... needless to say, my friend and I did survive with the help of some good hearted Irish souls who jumped into the occasion to rescue us from the donnybrook.

The world is great ... unfortunately it is polluted by a just a few assholes.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 12:38 AM

America may be the only country where even a chimp can dream of one day becoming the leader of the nation. If that isn't great, what is? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: mg
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:14 AM

I reviewed my day today to see if I encountered any assholes. Let's see..none at McDonald's, none on the bus (we do have a bus driver here who would really qualify easily but he wasn't driving today), none at work, none at church, none at the laundromat. None walking through town.

Where do they gather? Perhaps in other states. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 02:45 AM

mg - Try going to your local bars...the really seedy ones...and be there between 10pm and 1am. Try going to the crack houses in your downtown area. You will find them. You're just not hanging out in the right places.

In my experience most people do not qualify as "assholes". Most people are pretty nice and pretty well meaning most of the time. I figure that in any 50 or so people you will probably find an average of only about 1 "asshole".

Same deal when you're driving. There are a few "assholes" on the road...and we all remember them when we encounter them...but the other 98% of the drivers out there seem to drive in an inoffensive manner most of the time.

We just NOTICE the ones who don't, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 02:57 AM

One more thought: It also helps if you overtly act like an "asshole" yourself when looking around for "assholes"...because like attracts like. ;-) Assholish behaviour in one person can often prompt similarly assholish responses from others whom you would never have recognized AS assholes if you hadn't first provoked them into revealing themselves!

(An "asshole is really just a very insecure person who reacts aggressively and inappropriately when under stress of some kind...provide some stress and "Voila!" He or she will appear out of nowhere.)

So, it's easy. Just get really aggressive and pushy with other people. Take offense quickly and easily. Say, "What the hell are YOU lookin' at?" to people you encounter in bars or parking lots, and accompany the question with a hostile glare.

You will be amazed to find "assholes" at every turn... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 07:30 AM

Fascinating thread.

Now you all know what it feels like to be English, except with far less guilt and self-doubt. Bravo!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 07:51 AM

"Where do they gather? Perhaps in other states. mg"


             Washington DC is full of 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 12:20 PM

Here is one guys experience?

http://www.iamcarter.com/blog/archives/2006/07/an_open_letter_1.html

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:16 PM

You will be amazed to find "assholes" at every turn.

Spell it either way, everyone has just one.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:17 PM

Context, McGrath. Context is everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:01 PM

America has the freedom of a concentrated ruling class and low educational standards to allow Military and financial fascist takeovers to proceed with nary more than a hiccup.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM

Indeed. Also, it has had a consumer marketing system in place which has been very effective at keeping the general public distracted, addicted, sedated, and oblivious.

If there's a real financial collapse, though, you will see some serious cracks appearing in that facade, and you will then see the rise of some more radical viewpoints.

A clever enough form of fascism, however, can use that sort of societal instability to consolidate and strengthen its grip on power. People get angry? People get scared? You just increase domestic police powers and clamp down on the "troublemakers". Maybe get some private outfits like Blackwater to provide squads of "security" personnel to deal with it, like they did in the aftermath of Katrina. Give them black shirts this time, I say. It will be a nice match for the stealth bombers and blackhawk helicopters.

When your government starts using war vehicles that look like the personal choice of Darth Vader or Batman...watch out.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 08:42 PM

For the same reason Hitler thought we were vile: because we are a mongrel country, populated by waves of immigrants. F. S. Key told us to "praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation", and indeed, it would take divine intervention to make us a nation in the etymological sense: a group of people who can pretend that they all descended from the same totem. Sure, we all hate each other, but we are estopped by history from taking our hatreds as seriously as comes natural in the world's plentiful ethnic pest zones. The wretched refuse of their teeming shore has made a land of wealth and freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:13 PM

If the great melting pot was real, there wouldn't be a Little Italy, a Chinatown or a Haarlem.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:24 PM

Try

http://www.cafepress.com/thewhitehouse.24459759

If that does not work<, go to


http://www.assholesamongus.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:10 AM

Let's get one thing straight. If God did exist it's highly unlikely that He would favour one country over another.

Furthermore, throughout history, He seems to have 'chosen' several countries to favour at any one time. Either all but one are mistaken or He is practising deception and playing them off against each other (for Unknowable purposes?).

So, if you think that your particular country is favoured by God there's a fair chance that you're either mistaken or you're being deceived.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM

" if you think that your particular country is favoured by God there's a fair chance that you're either mistaken or you're being deceived. "

Where did that come up in the conversation? Perhaps you have a perception that we are running around saying that "God is on our side", but you are mistaken. Whatever media YOU are listening to is feeding you crap.

Let's all sit around and whine some more and nothing will get fixed. There are so many shithouse lawyers in this forum, most from other countries, but I can not see ANYONE here doing ANYTHING to make the world or their own country a better place. Think globably and act localy - what the are you doing?   There is a great collection of people here who enjoy the fine art of complaining and pontificating, but spend most of their time sitting on their ass.   You are part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM

"Let's all sit around and whine some more and nothing will get fixed. There are so many shithouse lawyers in this forum, most from other countries, but I can not see ANYONE here doing ANYTHING to make the world or their own country a better place. Think globably and act localy - what the are you doing?   There is a great collection of people here who enjoy the fine art of complaining and pontificating, but spend most of their time sitting on their ass.   You are part of the problem".

Where did that come up in this post conversation?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:46 AM

"Where did that come up in this post conversation? "

Just read through the posts in this thread, it is very evident. Lots of complaints, very little suggestion and no action.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:24 PM

Not really -just people discussing.

By the way, America has a massive influence good or bad on the lives of many of us "from other countries" so these people have a legitimate right to be involved in the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM

Ron, these are simply some people having a conversation and discussing ideas they have. If you don't like some of the ideas, that's your prerogative, but don't trot out the old horse about people doing something that will legitimize their right (in your opinion) to participate in a discussion.

You don't know what any of us are doing or not doing in our own private lives, it's none of your business anyway, and we are not behooved to prove to you or anyone else that we have a right to talk about things on an internet forum.

We have free speech, Ron, and you can't take it away from us. We don't like your nattering and complaining any better than you like ours, by the way. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

No one is trying to take away your "free speech" (which actually doesn't exist on a site like this.)

Perhap I over-reacted to all the bitching and moaning that is a pastime here. I'm also tired of the "old horse" of complaining and then calling it a "discussion". A discussion is an exchange of ideas and usually works to finding solutions. That does not seem to be the case here.

I guess it is just me. My apologies. The rest of you seem to enjoy it, so I will leave you to your jollies.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:14 PM

Well, free speech is always sort of conditional, isn't it? I mean, I can talk anytime I want to, but what if the site moderator deletes my post? I can talk to another person in 3D if I want to, but what if they refuse to talk to me? I can talk on the phone, but what if the other person hangs up on me? Dennis Kucinich can talk in the primary debates, but what if the network decides not to let him participate? And what if ABC, NBC, CNN, and the rest decide not to report what he is saying when he says it?

Then he still has free speech, technically speaking, but most people don't get to ever hear what he says...

So it's always only a relative measure of freedom.

Anyway, it is handsome of you to say what you said above, Ron, and I appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:15 PM

"You don't know what any of us are doing or not doing in our own private lives, it's none of your business anyway"

One last thing - you are right, I do not know and it is none of my business.... BUT... I would hope that there are some people that post here that DO wish to share what they are doing and perhaps inspire the rest of us. I am the first to admit that I feel frustrated and I could use some good examples from others.   Inspiration can make a difference.   Complaining serves no purpose, as evidenced by my own griping about the thread. I wish some folks here would be more positive and help inspire the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:17 PM

" it is handsome of you to say what you said above, Ron, and I appreciate it"

Thanks LH, I did mean it. It has been a rough weekend (my Mets folding once again did not help)and I have been guilty of being cranky.   I always hope that Mudcat could be more inspirational instead of a gathering point for complaints. The world is too divided as it is, we need hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:20 PM

"what if ABC, NBC, CNN, and the rest decide not to report what he is saying when he says it?"

Good point. With the millions of voices, it is impossible for EVERYONE to be heard. I guess Mudcat does offer SOME opportunity to raise an opinion.

The idea of free speech is that you cannot stop someone from speaking their mind, and I apologize if my earlier message was construed as an attempt to do that. My own "free speech" entitles me to speak out when I see something that can be turned into a more positive application.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM

Yeah. We all long for positive inspiration. No doubt about that.

I think that all nations are great in one respect or another. They all have something wonderful about them if you get to know the culture and the land. So, it's natural for people to love their country and be proud of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:01 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk - PM
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 12:38 AM

America may be the only country where even a chimp can dream of one day becoming the leader of the nation. If that isn't great, what is? ;-)

LH, is this an allusion to a movie or something ?

I sure hope so ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:32 PM

Little Hawk, just a point. The name of the thread is Why Is America Great, not why America is the greatest. So whats the reason for-

"To constantly blather on in popular propaganda about your own country being "the greatest country in the world"?

I love America, but you're right, its not THE greatest, no one country can be. There are a number of things that make America great for ME-an incredible diversity of music, baseball, and that great spark of American ingenuity and lets get this done now, are just a few of my favorite characteristics, and why I think we are. But I'm too much of a realist to say America is THE greatest. I dont believe in any absolute.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:48 PM

Absolutely, Irishenglish. We are in agreement on that.

I commented on the old "our country is the greatest country in the world" aspect simply because it is so often repeated in American political rhetoric...like a mantra. That makes it a matter of concern to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: maeve
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:52 PM

Here is a possibility for positive inspiration and productive action:


Google 10 to the 100th thread


It occurs to me that the guidelines detailed at the website could offer a organizational structure for any individual or group wishing to hold out a helping hand to others, whether or not you choose to enter the grant competition.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM

Damn, DonT - I'm going to have to agree with you again.

But may I provide a sharp stick (for insertion into the eye) for the bigoted slumcult above who writes "shithouse lawyers, mostly from other nations"?

1. If your nation has no respect, merely fear, from others, you are not great, merely mighty.
2. I get very fed up with the use of the term "lawyer" as merely another form of abuse. If you had the brains, you'd get qualified.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:04 PM

The metamucil not working for your Richard?

I was cranky today, what is your excuse?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: heric
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:49 PM

Holy crap. 95 Dems and 133 Republicans voted against the bailout even with its 100 pages of fabric softening.

I said it may be impossible to do something of this magnitude in the peak of election season, but I didn't really believe that nothing at all would emerge from Congress.

So we may get definitive test analyses over the next ten years on whether America is still great, or soft and lazy and selfish.

We're going on a national diet and exercise program, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:33 PM

Some idiotic republicans were still banging on about the slippery slope to socialism, but the mood on the streets appears to have been the ordinary American at last seeing that capitalism does not work for them - only for the great and mighty.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:49 PM

"shithouse lawyers in this forum, most from other countries"

1. That is American bigotry against other countries.
2. It is bigotry against lawyers - a form of ignorance that resents learning and intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:02 PM

Richard ...some lawyers of my aquaintance are "vultures", they are on a par with the now extinct species "Estate agents"

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:07 PM

1. No, it is an observation on postings here on Mudcat. There is a number of negative commments being written about AMERICA (as opposed to the elected leaders) that come from people from other countries commenting.

2. No, it is not against lawyers. "Shithouse Lawyers" is a military expression that is used to described to individuals that think they have all the answers when in fact they have no experience or knowledge whatsoever. A shithouse lawyer was someone who THOUGHT they new all the military rules and regs but did not.   

If anything, the expression is an appreciation of lawyers who study hard.

You were wrong Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:52 PM

the British expression is "barrack-room lawyer", which seems a much more apt and expressive term.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:07 PM

"which seems a much more apt and expressive term"

Maybe it is more "apt" for you folks who drive on the wrong side of the road, but how can "barrack" be more expressive than "shithouse"?

Since it seems we have a cultural roadblock here, a "shithouse" was also known as a "privy", or an outhouse. Usually they were wooden shacks where you went to do your business.    Another expression that came from this was "she is built like a brick shithouse" - meaning well stacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:17 PM

from an etymological point of view, Ron, I doubt that "shithouse lawyer" was ever a military expression.

I am going out on a limb here but instinctively I feel that it is a term which the cops would use in a derogatory sense when confronted with a detainee who could spout chapter and verse regarding his "rights".

I am however prepared to be proved wrong by any vets on the forum ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:17 PM

The threat topic suggests what some may legitimately feel is false.

I saw alot of observations to correct this error, and reasons why.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:34 PM

Good points Don T
I guess these observations would have steered the debate better if posted nearer the top.

In the book "Lyndon Johnson and the American Dream, I recall the author stating that this persident could not understand why the Vietnamese would not want a USA style of democracy/capitalism like Americans (and other Western countries) enjoy. His pushing of this war seemed to be based on this belief.

Maybe this is still the root of the problem with many foreign USA milatery (and other) interventions today? Can one realistically expect that all nations wish (or are prepared for) the same type of democracy and society as those in the USA (or other western countries)?

Why does the USA feel it must go it alone in the world spreading principles of western democracy and capitalism? It took alot out of the USA in the 60's and 70's. I suggest it is doing a similar job today.

IMO, many people outside of te USA see this as arrogence. Especially since some of these interventions (right or wrong) are seem to be based on promoting USA corporate interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:39 PM

Sorry, I was referring to an earlier statement by Don T, which I mistakenly
thought it to be recent. It is below.


"I'm not sure it is, any more.

And neither are the States United.

Time for a massive rethink about what went wrong with its ideals of democracy and freedom".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:53 PM

"from an etymological point of view, Ron, I doubt that "shithouse lawyer" was ever a military expression."

Trust me Murray, it was. You can look it up, it was indeed commonly used in the military.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:41 PM

wikipedia suggests that Barracks Lawyer is the more common term in the US Army:
"Barracks Lawyer —someone who claims to know all the regulations and UCMJ by heart and threatens to use them against the chain-of-command regularly; similar to a "jailhouse lawyer" or a "shithouse lawyer"

It's not clear from that that shithouse lawyer is also used in the army, or just a term we are all supposed to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Offrdk5/List_of_U.S._Army_acronyms_and_expressions

However, something called wiktionary states pretty clearly that shithouse lawyer is a US equivalent to UK Barracks Lawyer or Sea Lawyer:

Sea Lawyer
(US Navy, Coast Guard, RN) A sailor, probably too smart for his own good, who thinks he knows all of the regulations and quotes them to get out of either work or trouble. Other US and UK military equivalent is "Barrack Room Lawyer" (UK), and "Barracks Lawyer" or, more crudely, "Shithouse Lawyer" (US).

(What did you learn on mudcat today, dear?)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:48 PM

In other words, a shithouse lawyer is a fast talking know-it-all who cites important-sounding bullshit in support of his position.

Pretty good term, really. (But you're clearly off the hook, Richard!)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:57 PM

Richard did not know the term so it is understandable that he took it the wrong way.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:59 PM

In Australia, we have similar term, but subtly different meaning 'bush lawyer' - it also implies a considerable degree of intelligence, if somewhat misapplied. :-)

Met a guy who took a trip across The Great Australian Bight - the rail runs from Adelaide to Perth, and contains one of the world's longest straight stretches of rail line. There was a Texan on board.... 3 days of (as it is called) 'semi-arid desert country' later, he was MUCH quieter... :-)

It's called only 'semi' - cause there IS plenty of life and water - IF you know how to find it... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:59 PM

I agree with mg.

America is more than greed on Wall Street. No country in the world is perfect.

I think that Bacevich's book, "The Limits of Power" describe in detail what went wrong
with the "American Dream" which can't just be about home ownership.

We haven't solved the problem of religious excess and intolerance very well yet.
We, as patriots, have a duty to the Constitution which defines the better ideas for
our governing. "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" can't be bought for just a few at the expense of the many. The Constitution was amended to address the issue of slavery which makes it a logical and adaptable document. Next, we need to address the Equal Rights Amendment for women.

America is great because there were highly educated, intelligent, experienced, compassionate and knowledgeable men at the helm. They realized that the authoritarian principles of a "King George" don't work in 2008 as they didn't then. I dare to call them "elite" because they had cultivated their principles through hard work and education.
I don't want another idiot with a limited perspective running the country as we have had for the last eight years. Bush would have been laughed out of the Constitutional Convention. Here's to an "elite" that knows how to govern.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 10:22 AM

" Somewhere in the back of their minds, a lot of people seem to be realizing that the alternative to a U.S.-dominated world is not a world dominated by someone else or someone better. It is a leaderless world. Neither Russia nor China has the will or the way to provide the global public goods that America — at its best — consistently has. The European Union right now is so split that it cannot even agree on an effective stimulus package.

No wonder then that even though this economic crisis began in America, with American bad borrowing and bad lending practices, people have nevertheless fled to the U.S. dollar. Case in point: South Korea's currency has lost roughly 40 percent against the dollar in just the last six months.

"No other country can substitute for the U.S.," a senior Korean official remarked to me. "The U.S. is still No. 1 in military, No. 1 in economy, No. 1 in promoting human rights and No. 1 in idealism. Only the U.S. can lead the world. No other country can. China can't. The E.U. is too divided, and Europe is militarily far behind the U.S. So it is only the United States ... We have never had a more unipolar world than we have today."

Yes, many Asians resent the fact that Americans scolded them about their banking crisis in the 1990s, and now we've made many of the same mistakes. But that schadenfreude doesn't last long. In random conversations here in Seoul with Korean and Asian thinkers, journalists and business executives, I found people really worried: Could it be, they ask, that the Americans don't know what they are doing, or, worse, that they know what they are doing but the problem is just so much bigger than anything we've ever seen? "...

THomas Friedman, Paging Uncle Sam, NYT

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 10:27 AM

As author of the original cartoon that began this thread...

Lets find at least two to blame...

Ethical stimulus can come in the form of executing Wall Street CEO's for ruining the world's economy.
Not all bankers should be killed, just two the way China executed the CEOs who put melamine in milk to pass a protein test on thier inferior products.

Hang one banker from the big board at the NYSE and blow another one up at next years super bowl at half time.

They would die in the name of change as heros.

It would be a bargain, and we all love bargains.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: meself
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 11:19 AM

Great cartoon, Donuel - did any of the rest of you look at it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 11:24 AM

Seems to me that the way to judge the greatness of a country is not by the number of people who want to go there, but by the number of people who DON'T want to go there.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:02 AM

Great idea, Donuel. That way the CEO's who took tens of millions of dollars in compensation can prove they are, in fact, indispensable by keeping the machinery of execution up-to-date and functional.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:05 AM

We had the best idea. Pity the execution of it has not worked as well...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Midchuck
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:15 AM

Hang one banker from the big board at the NYSE and blow another one up at next years super bowl at half time.

They would die in the name of change as heros.

Why make martyrs?

If would be more fun, and more fair, to strip some of the bankers and CEOs of all their savings and investments, require them to take full time jobs at minimum wage, and live solely on the income from those jobs until they're too old to work, and then solely on Social Security for the balance of their lives. They would probably consider this a worse fate than execution or prison.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:51 PM

By Jove Peter! I think you have it!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 04:26 PM

Well, it could be argued that greed is a universal human element, and since it is clear that America generally tends to forgive greed except in bank-robbers and purse-snatchers who just gave no sense of style, this may be a clue to America's inherent greatness. Mind you, this is not an argument I am making, just one I am identifying as possible! :D I'll leave it to the retreating Republicans to make it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:13 PM

America was great because, like any great country, her citizens were great. Freedom allowed them to be inventive and ambitious. It allowed many to "start over", that is, to re-invent themselves. It allowed us to not be bound by mistakes of the past. We could correct wrongs and change when we needed to.

From its beginning Americans trusted one another. They laid their very lives on the line for each other. They recognized that the ideals they ascribed to were bigger than the man. They were honest. They dealt fairly and honestly with each other.

Yes, there were those who didn't. There always are but, as they were exposed, they were dealt with using the laws of the land (for the most part) but we 're discussing greatness here so let's not dwell on the less-than-great aspects.

"Was"? America WAS great?

Then there arose a generation who did not know the LORD or fear His laws. Neither did they call upon His name.

Uh, that would be my generation. All we saw was the not-so-great stuff. The hypocrisy and corruption. Racism, corporate greed and a bourgeois mindless adherence to an ideal who's time had come and gone. Power to the people! Free love! Legalize drugs. Turn on, tune in, drop out. We will fix what is WRONG with America. America is wrong with America! etc.

As you know, that struggle stills goes on today. You see it in these threads moment by moment.

"We're poor little sheep who have lost our way, bah, bah, bah! We're poor little sheep who have gone astray, bah, bah, bah!"

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:50 PM

"Neither did they call upon His name."


          Not so! They call his name every time one of them stubs his toe, or slams his finger in a car door.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:16 PM

"Then there arose a generation who ...."

Makes no difference what you put after that...it's a generalization. No entire generation does or does not do one thing. ...and in the case of "the LORD", it's even more inaccurate.
Since a majority of the population does consider themselves to be followers of this Lord, you must be claiming they are dishonest or hypocrits... or something. And if you attribute any flaws, weaknesses and/or failures you think you find in America's greatness to failure to follow certain religious teachings, percepts or denominations, you are waking on VERY thin logical ice.
   There is much good happening and many progressive, decent and intelligent people doing it without recourse to specific religious concepts.

   Whether America is or is not 'great' cannot be laid at the feet of ANY one cause. We cannot pray our way out of our troubles.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:27 PM

The a-holes are not some of the people in Washington but those who put them there.

Why trash Washington when Americans made that happen?

The founding fathers were not Christians but Deists. It was the intelligent position to
take at the time.

There was corruption then too. Also, nutty religious zealots who wanted to circumvent the Constitution by destroying the Separation clause.

America is only as great as the people who are in it. Right now, I have questions about that.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:44 PM

Rig, I stand corrected!

Is it a "hasty" generalization Bill D? I was actually quoting Cecil B. de Mille ( I think??) "The Ten Commandments". The actual thrust of my argument was in the first part. The philosophy/philosophies that contributed to the making of this nation were important. The elements, whether they be found in Protestantism, Catholicism or some other -ism are what was important. The enterprise of America was based upon personal integrity, honesty and fair dealing. Ultimately it was this same credo that lead to the abolishment of slavery. It also lead, alas, to Prohibition. The point is men of good will, yes, women of good will, recognize the greater good, the high moral enterprise of this nation. And when we have gone amiss, we recognize it. We didn't wallow in shame or proudly hold to a steady course, going the wrong way.

I would like to think that even today we are correcting our errors and seeking a just path into America's future. Only time will tell. It is the apparatus of our Constitution and the Declaration of Independence which so enable us to change with less threat of violence than many other nations.

My appeal is to folks of good will everywhere to strive honestly and with respect for the dignity and freedom of their fellow citizen. You don't have to adhere to some religion to be a good American. You only have to recognize what a good thing we have going here and do your best to help keep it afloat and on a course that benefits as many as possible without compromising the framework of our original documents.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:49 PM

String! About 3 of the signers were deists. The rest were Protestant Christians.

What is the "Separation" clause? Are you referring to Jefferson's letter to a friend? The First Amendment?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Joe_F
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:10 PM

The evidence seems to show that nations, for the time being, are necessary evils, and among them America, for the time being, is one of the most necessary and least evil.

In most people's minds, it stands -- not all that straight, but stands -- for wealth and freedom.

A lot of people who don't live here have family here, and their number is continually increasing.

That should do to go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:10 PM

"I was actually quoting Cecil B. de Mille ( I think??) "The Ten Commandments"."

I don't believe I ever saw that movie...I only know a joke about it.

When the quotation marks are absent, I can only surmise they were your words.

I appreciate your more detailed and clear explanation, which I can largely agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:23 PM

No "" because I wasn't sure if that was the exact line and from my past pasts I certainly have to agree with your assumption. No harm, no foul! I enjoy your insights and thought processes!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:32 PM

Joe F. - I think there is a lot less evil in the American people than in the American government. There are, however, IMO, good people in government, but the people need to pay more attention to what's going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:13 PM

Talk about confabulation!! I assure you, fearing the Lord (this is not Zarathustra, right? Buddha? any of the several thousand?) and calling upon his name has nothing to do with the greatness of the Great Experiment. As you yourself began to say so eloquently, it is an experiment in individuals co-existing in mutual freedom under the law. That is a VERY thornyporposition to float when you look at the precedents in favor of dictatorships and priesthoods and oligarchies and theocracies and troikas and fascisms and so on.

Keeping the Lord's name OUT of it was one of the reasons it succeeded, because it defused one of the historic bases of social failure, namely, trying to make religious issues part of the commons where they cannot exist.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:35 AM

Though I may disagree with you at a personal level, Amos (and I do) there is some strong linkage. It wasn't a bunch of atheistic humanists that sat around and suddenly came up with the US Credo. The roots and rhizomes trace back through human history with great emphasis on English Protestantism, the English revolution, Congregationalism as well as many other factors such as they teach in public school (or did when I was a kid). In a way it was a perfect storm. You might almost say Providential, Well, YOU wouldn't but I might!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:12 AM

Let me add I have all the respect in the world for that perfect storm of spiritual evolution and the new plateau (well, at least another stab at an old plateau) it represented. The people who thought long and hard about the Constitution were certainly humanists, in the sense that they embraced values centered around human life and its betterment, and human understanding as it was developed in the Renaissance and the Enlightenment phases. They were deists, espousing a belief in some Eternal spiritual essence about which they were careful not to make assumptions. Most importantly they recognized the individual human right to channel it in his own manner, a right that ever since has been challenged by those who have an interest in one or another establishment designed to tell people how to do it. That is the sort of religion which the American commons should have no truck with in matters of citizenry and state organization and government, except incidentally.


A

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jayto
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:43 AM

I agree with whoever said it above. Alot of the people that travel abroad are the same ones that walk around the US with a better than you attitude. They not only think they are better than the people of whatever country they are visiting they think they are better the people from thier home country. The kind I wish would stay wherever they happen to be visiting. So Americans are viewed as arrogant and rude because for the most part it is the arrogant and rude that are traveling abroad. Your average Americans are too busy trying to keep thier homes and food on the table. I know alot of people that even if they could they wouldn't travel to far. Like people of other parts of the world they grew up going places with thier families and have kind of got into a routine they enjoy and know.

Greed is a big problem in the US and is also a huge contributer to our image abroad. Once again it is not your normal American that has contributed to this. People don't think, talk, and act like the people you see on TV. I get sick watching the news editorials and reality shows. I really don't know any average American that acts and thinks that way. I know by selection throughout your daily life will cause you to not associate with people that view things and act in a way you detest but I really don't see it anyway. There is a big split between watching American TV shows (news or otherwise) and watching Average Americans.

I do feel alot of times that other nationalities are more critical of us here in the US as well.No offense but I have yet to see and American start a thread that is negative about another nationality and I have not read anything talking about another nationality being rude. I know we can't be the only ones viewed as such. I can't speak for an entire nation and there is plenty that irratates me about our culture. I will not sit back and listen to a bash about Americans without putting my thoughts in on it. When I hear it I can't help but think my parents, kids, girlfriend, friends and all my family are the ones being talked about. Please remember that. We are not perfect as a whole but not all are like what the perception is. My family are good people. My friends are good people. The only time most of my family have been to Europe was in World War 2 so there is no way for Europeans to see they are good people. They are not on TV because they would be considered boring by Hollywood and New York. They are not rich so they are busy working instead of travelling around on pleasure trips. I know not everyone in England acts like National Lampoon. I know not all of Germany are like the guys in Rammstien (the band not the city), I know not everyone in France is like the inspector on the Pink Panther movies. I know that alot of you have had a negative run in with someone from the US. I have to without leaving the US but I have also had negative run-ins with Europeans, Asians, Central and South Americans. People are people and there are good and bad. Negative images are just a stereotype. When it comes to the media it is only the most extreme and repulsive that get air time. The normal and decent people are ignored because they are boring.
cya
JT

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: mg
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:24 AM

The other thing to consider is that a certain percentage of people are looking around for permission to bash other groups...there is usually a group that it is OK to bash, so the bash-seekers will join in on whatever chorus exists at the time. If it is OK to bash Jews, they will. Vietnam veterans, they will. Americans in general, they will. White males, they will. They have their sensors out for who the deciders of this have given permission to bash, and they will proceed. It doesn't really matter who the target is..just that they have gotten social signals that it is OK to take on this group but not these others so have at them until the signals change. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jayto
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM

I agree mg. I don't really mind if someone bashes me normally. When people generalize though they end up bashing alot of innocent people and making people mad because people they care about are getting bashed. There are groups of Americans I would join in on bashing myself. Americans in general though I am not and I will not let it happen without putting in my opinions. Why not be original in ur bashes lol let's bash about something we haven't bashed before. Bashing is fun it let's original and contsructive thought have a vacation. Since I am an American maybe my original and constructive thought is on vacation in Europe being rude to someone lol jk.
cya
JT

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM

To the best of my recollection I have never been made to feel unwelcome in any country where I have visited. It's not hard to do unless you are an asshole.
Where have I been?
Canada
England
Scotland
Wales
Barbados
Burmuda
St. Maartin
Jamaica.
It all boils down to attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jayto
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:48 AM

I would like to know which country we should use as a model to clean up Washington and America. Which out there have a coruption free system? Which country is greed free? Which country is caste free and transformed all thier assholes into caring responsible people? We are a large and diverse people here in America. We have every type of person you can think of here. We have great people and horrible people. What country out there are free of the bad and can give us an example of how to transform all of our bad people to good. Who's definition of good and bad are we going to use? Who's definition of right and wrong are we going to use? How are we going to enforce right and wrong good and bad? Will it be free will? Who's will is right and wrong? A person can approach 3 people and have a 10 minute discussion and you will have 3 different perceptions and interpretations of that same conversation. I am stumped so what country and people can we use as a model and why should we use that place as a model?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:23 PM

Lichtenstein?Lishunstein?Lichenstein?

Togo


(seriously Jayto, I have said similar things here for years in response to bashing of the US)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:26 PM

(and my spell checker did know the right one).... Liechtenstein

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jayto
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 06:56 PM

lol Now that made me laugh thank you :)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 04:34 AM

aye tell that to the african americans and the native americans that America is great slavery, native Americans being put into reservtions, dropping the atom bomb on Japan etc... Aye great

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:00 AM

Dropping the bomb on Japan cleared the way for letting Japanese-Americans out of consentration camps.

               Trade-offs, there are always trade-offs!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:23 AM

While any country uses, or condones the use of torture and imprisonment without trail on its behalf there is nothing to distinguish it from the world's most repressive regimes. That is the situation with the US at present and those of us elsewhere wait with some interest to see what the new kid on the block intends to do about it.
Around half an hours drive from here planes refuel regularly on their way to countries where some of the passengers will be subjected to torture and humiliation on behalf of the U.S.
Please don't dislocate your arms patting yourselves on the back.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jayto
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:53 AM

OMG I know America is not perfect and has an imperfect past. I think it is crap for people to generalize all people within a country. I never even claimed America is great I simply claimed not all Americans are like the stereotypes I hear. Nationalities are a man made label. People are people and that defies geographic location. There are good and bad in all places. This argument is the equivalent to the "my Daddy can beat your Daddy up." argument you get from kids. What is the definition of great we are using here anyway. In my mind there is no government out there that is great. There is no legal system that is great. There are horrible acts being committed everyday and atrocious actions perpetrated all over the world by people of all nationalities. All we can do is strive to get better. You have to make a distinction of what you are talking about though. If you don't like American tourists that a snobby and rude say it. If you don't like the American Government say it. Don't cop out and generalize and stereotype all American people under a blanket prejudice. That just shows there is something psychologically else going on. Bash whatever you want and express your feelings however you feel but whenever you lump people in together you are mixing the good and the bad together. When you do that you are WRONG. I will not stand up and defend policies I don't agree with, greed that makes me sick, people that perceive themselves as superior to others for whatever reason. I will stand up and be vocal when I see people that are good people bashed and lumped in with a generalization. When you generalize like that you assume the role of the person that views them self as superior. I will make this as clear as I can. THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE IN AMERICA. NOT EVERY PERSON IS BUT THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE IN AMERICA.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 12:27 PM

With respect Jayto - the title of this thread is 'why is AMERICA great'.
Of course there are good people in America - almost certainly the vast majority are, but a nation is not judged on its John Does or Joe Smiths.
If the people allow themselves to be represented by the Dubyas and the Lindy Englishs and the Guantanamos and the CIAs that is who you are to the world.
More to the point, if you disassociate yourself from these people - who claim themselves to be patriots acting on behalf of your 'great' country, that is who you are - period.
The Nazi Germany that produced Hitler and Goebbels also produced Oskar Schindler - who do you remember when the subject comes up?
Some of us haven't forgotten that Lieutenant Calley, the man responsible for roasting the villagers of Mai Lia alive, returned home to a hero's welcome and a successful career in US politics.
It's not just the Augean Stable that needs cleaning out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 12:36 PM

ummm... seems to me a whole lot of stable cleaning is going on right now. It's going to continue to smell for awhile, however, as we have 8 years worth of s*** to shovel.

I have often wished we had a system to 'call elections' and have a 'vote of no confidence' as some countries do....but when we make a mistake at the top, it takes at least 4 years to undo.

We can debate forever how we MADE that mistake, but it is well to remember that 8 years ago, the majority DID vote for Gore, not Dubya.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 01:06 PM

I get agree with both of you. I just object to the group associations and stereotypes of Americans as a whole. To me it is another form of intolerance and I highly object to it. I agree with both of you (Jim and Bill) I feel though that too often it is the John and Jane Doe's that are left out of the mix all together. People group them in with the bad while the elected leaders (or so called elected leaders)ignore them. I am not going to get into the history of ruthless and sleazy leaders throughout history but John and Jane Doe's have a serious history of being lied to by these type of leaders. I will leave it at that for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM

Oh yeah not to mention it seems like the modern Herecles always remains empty handed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 01:39 PM

"...Lieutenant Calley, the man responsible for roasting the villagers of Mai Lia alive, returned home to a hero's welcome and a successful career in US politics." ~ Jim Carroll

People were "roasted alive". Huh?

He came home to a "hero's welcome"(?). No, he came home as a suspect in the worst episode of the Viet Nam War.

He had a "successful career in politics"(?). No, he was convicted of murder and served prison time. His name is digraced forever.

He was elected to nothing, working for about thirty years at a relative's jewelry store. Probably a guard or such. He ain't to bright.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 01:53 PM

Also for Jim Carroll:

Calley: "Its source is Ceallach, an Irish Gaelic name meaning 'strife, war' "

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 02:21 PM

By all accounts, Calley was/is a piece of work. However I find nothing intimating anything of the sort that Jim Carroll charged. If foreign news reported other than what we in the US heard, I would appreciate a link to the material. If no link is forthcoming I can only presume that people believe and pass on whatever rumours that reach - and please - them.

A Lengthy Account

"After deliberating for 79 hours and 57 minutes, the jury returned a verdict. They had found Calley guilty of premeditated murder of 22 of the villagers of My Lai. One juror claimed that they "had labored long and hard to find some way, some evidence, or some flaw in the testimony so we could find Lt. Calley innocent." Before the jury reconvened to decide his punishment, Calley was allowed to address the jury and said, "Yesterday you stripped me of all my honor, please by your actions that you take here today, don't strip future soldiers of their honor-I beg you." The prosecution responded that Calley had stripped himself of his honor by murdering women and children.

"After seven hours the jury sentenced Calley to life of hard labor. In the end, he only served days in a Fort Benning stockade before being placed under house arrest. His sentence was repeatedly reduced. Finally, his sentence was commuted to time served by President Nixon. He was paroled in November, 1974.

"Calley recently retired from his job as the manager at his father-in-law's jewelery store. He avoids interviews about My Lai--unless he is paid to give them."


Bio

A Timeline

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 03:01 PM

I stand corrected - I have recollections of Calley being greeted by a large welcoming party and announcing he was going into politics; if, as it seems, this is incorrect, I apologise.
I do not withdraw my original point that the people of a nation as a whole stand responsible for actions carried out in their name; there are many other examples, past and current, I could have chosen.
""Its source is Ceallach, an Irish Gaelic name meaning 'strife, war'"
"Ceallach" is Irish for
1.   A recluse or hermit.
3.   Celled or cellular.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 03:08 PM

goatfell, the experts at the time estimated that if we had to invade the Japanese home islands it would cost nearly a million lives. Dropping the big one killed about 100,000. Do the math.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 03:30 PM

Jim please elaborate about the people are accountable. I want to make sure I am not getting the wrong impression here. Do you understand what I am trying to say or do I need to elaborate. I have found in the past sometimes the point is not made as clear as you think it is. I have been guilty in the past about the mistake and I may be now. Could you please elaborate your point and let me know if I need to elaborate mine. I don't want an argument I just want to be sure I am making my viewpoint clear and I have yours clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 04:03 PM

"I do not withdraw my original point that the people of a nation as a whole stand responsible for actions carried out in their name; there are many other examples, past and current, I could have chosen." Jim Carroll

For how long must a people be held responsible for what their governments did at one time in history?

Germans come to mind.

The English also.

Many more.

Blaming the people comes close, imo, to blaming and stigmaizing and penalizing/prosecuting indefinitely the whole family when one of its members goes bad. How sustainable is that argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 05:15 PM

In the words of the prophet, "Shit happens."

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: mg
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 05:19 PM

I don't remember great welcoming parties for any Vietnam veterans personally...just a lot of abuse in general. But, as I said in another post, there are protected groups that it is socially OK to bash somehow. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 05:34 PM

The absolute best line I ever heard about that, mg, is the following: A Lt.Col. Sumner was approached by a civilian (I think in SanFrancisco) and the guy yelled at him, "What are you doing in Vietnam?" Sumner replied, "I thought YOU knew. You sent me."

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jayto
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 06:16 PM

Ebbie that is why I asked for clarification. I want to mak sure that is what he meant. When I know for sure I have plenty to say :) The BS section is a hornets nest anyway but this is big time fuel lol.

Whats up Peace hows my brother man today?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:36 AM

"For how long must a people be held responsible for what their governments did at one time in history?"
"In the words of the prophet, "Shit happens."
How long - until shit like Iraq, Iran, Grenada, Cuba, Nicaragua, Chile - everywhere the US, either openly or through its various clandestine organisations such as the CIA, ceases to interfere in world politics .... in other words, until shit stops happening.
Until America being great means it is getting down to solving its own domestic problems like poverty, inequality, a gun law that dates back to Dodge City, a health system that allows millions to die because they can't afford medical care, government policy that is sucking the planet dry of its natural resources - above all, until the answer to the question "Why is America Great?" isn't "My army is bigger than your army".
World forgiveness for the barbaric behaviour of the US in Viet Nam will only come with genuine contrition, not because it was a war they lost.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 04:19 AM

there are people on this thread who don't beleive that Americans roasted villages in vietnam it's like people not beleivng that the holucost happened, close your eyes and it's out your mind. There are some people in America that are great and some are not and you do torture people the same as here in Britian and else where I wouldn't say America is great , It's just like every other country it's has it's good point and bad points

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 07:30 AM

On the other hand, not all nations aspire to 'greatness'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:02 PM

"..there are people on this thread who don't beleive that Americans roasted villages" Goatfell

Give us some evidence for it and we will seriously consider the charge. Or do you prefer to snipe from a distance?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 05:11 PM

As I raised the point I had better clarify.
The report of villagers being driven into their huts which were then set on fire appeared in a long Sunday Times Colour supplement article shortly after the event. I took the cutting for a 'Living Newspaper' show we were doing at the time.
The information on the massacre was skimpy as both the US Military and the US agencies were running round like blue-arsed flies trying to cover up what had happened. If the report was inaccurate, I am happy to accept that and withdraw the statement.
In the light of the facts that emerged later it it is academic anyway as the documented behaviour of the troops was bestial - rape, murder, mutilation.... you name it, they did it, (except, of course, beasts don't behave like that - do they?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 08:38 PM

You forgot Panama.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 11:05 PM

I wasn't even born then. How can you categorize me as an American as being bad over an event that took place before my birth?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: pdq
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 11:10 PM

Original sin?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 03:58 AM

"You forgot Panama."
A Guardian report once gave a list of over 50 countries the US had dropped bombs on since the end of WWII.
"How can you categorize me as an American as being bad"
Nobody is suggesting that you are 'bad' Jayto - the question was about America, not Americans - and the answer, as far as some of us are concerned is 'maybe America is not as great as she thinks it is'. To categorise Americans as being 'bad' because they are Americans would be as racist as suggesting that all Muslims or Irish are terrorists or potential terrorists.
As far as some of us are concerned, while Guantanamo Concentration Camp, internment without trial, torture (be it by or on behalf of the US), collateral damage, extreme rendition and all the other human rights outrages carried out by the US in "The fight against tourism" as your ex-leader so quaintly put it, America will be a country to be feared rather than respected and admired.
One of the great sayings of the past 'before you were born' is "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem" - in other words, if you allow your government to carry out such actions on your behalf you re bound to be judged along with them.
I treasure my friendships with the draft-dodgers I stood shoulder-to-shoulder with on the anti - Viet Nam war demonstrations - they were the real war (or maybe peace) heroes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 06:51 AM

Kendall, The only places I have been treated rudely because I am an American (and I don't much care for that term) were France and Canada...but I understand that the French are rude to everyone.

Jayto, there are people here with whom you cannot have a rational discussion. On the topic of the US, two of them are Jim Carroll and Little Hawk (the latter of whom has many other outstanding qualities), because their opinions were ossified many years ago.

Is America great? Of course it is - and so are many other nations, each in their own way. Have we, individually and collectively, made mistakes over the past 225 years? Of course we have, and I would challenge the yank-bashers present to say - and prove - that their own nations have not. Do we "allow our government to carry out" actions on our behalf that are probably illegal and immoral? Perhaps so. Our political structure does not allow for fast regime changes, even when the majority disapproves of the actions of the minority. Should we opt for the alternatives of military juntas or parliamentary revolving doors? I think not.

I think someone said earlier in this discussion that 'we are talking about America, not Americans'. They cannot be separated. "America" consists of over 300 million people, spread out over 3.5 million square miles (or 9.2 million square kilometers, if you prefer). However, it is not empty land, however beautiful. America is not the policies and opinions of a few hundred individuals (or a single individual) stuck on a piece of former swamp between Virginia and Maryland, nor is it the life style of the 8.5 million people stuck in the 300 square miles that comprises New York City. I was in San Antonio for a week last month and we drove over to Phoenix last weekend - a minor matter of a 1,000 miles round trip - and met people in both places of various shades of tan/brown who spoke a number of different languages...but they are all Americans and all part of what makes this country great. They may individually choose to be part of the minority that actively or passively participates in our political process and they may or may not resemble any of the demographics that the media and others point at with pride or alarm but, collectively, they are America.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: number 6
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 08:46 AM

again I repeat in this thread ...

"The world is great ... unfortunately it is polluted by a just a few assholes."

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Monique
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:05 AM

"I understand that the French are rude to everyone" I as a French person find that rude! French assholes are rude just as any asshole from any country and I never knew that there was a poll to figure out the percentage of assholes in each and every country. First we'd have to agree about what an asshole is considering everyone's point of view (let's take some beers and sandwitches, it's going to last a long time...) to find out that "The world is great ... unfortunately it is polluted by a just a few assholes" as biLL said just above.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:22 AM

artbrooks, thank you.

About the French, Monique, I think that was mostly a tongue in cheek remark. For some reason, the "rudeness" of the French - or Parisians, in particular - has been 'chewed' in this country (The English don't like the Greeks, the Greeks don't like the Turks, the French don't like anybody) for generations. But I would hate to think where the US would be had it not been for the French very early on.

It has been enough of a truism in this country that some friends of mine were somewhat surprised to find that they had a lovely time in Paris. Not to worry.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:43 AM

In numerous trips to and through France, I have never seen the famous French rudeness you speak of.

I have seen American stupidity on display, tho'--perhaps that is where the idea of French rudeness comes from?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:58 AM

Oh man what a thread! lol

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:19 PM

France and the French have gotten a real bad rap in the American media for a very long time.

             Remember when those dizzy Congress people wanted to rename French fries, freedom fries?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:26 PM

From Wikipedia:

"On 11 March 2003, Representatives Robert W. Ney (R-Ohio) and Walter B. Jones, Jr. (R-North Carolina) declared that all references to French fries and French toast on the menus of the restaurants and snack bars run by the House of Representatives would be removed. House cafeterias were ordered to rename French fries to "freedom fries".

"This action was carried out without a congressional vote, under the authority of Ney's position as Chairman of the Committee on House Administration, which oversees restaurant operations for the chamber. The simultaneous renaming of French toast to "freedom toast" attracted less attention.[1]"

I personally don't know anyone who did anything but laugh at the stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:35 PM

C'mon I laughed at the stupidity as well. It is still laughed at in the US even today.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:41 PM

'Tis true...'tis true...its the Parisians, not the French. I remember camping in the Bois de Bolougne (sp?) (is there still a public campground there - this was 1972) next to a guy from Marseille who told us not to be concerned...the Parisians treated him the same way!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:48 PM

"One of the great sayings of the past 'before you were born' is 'If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem' - in other words, if you allow your government to carry out such actions on your behalf you're bound to be judged along with them."

The problem with statements such as this, and sweeping generalizations that condemn (or, for that matter, extol) an entire country for the actions of its government is that there are many people who did not participate or "allow" this to happen, but strenuously objected, protested, and worked against these actions. This kind of generalization condemns the protesters along with the perpetrators, and is simply unfair. The attempt to impose collective guilt on the populace of an entire country—or any other aggregate of people—is indistinguishable from simple bigotry.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:49 PM

ANyway, the French generally understand why America is great and honor the core idea that is the real seat of any greatness it has, the notion that all men are created equal, and that self-government by free people is not only possible but desirable.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:52 PM

Which, of course, is why they had a revolution and chopped off so many heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jayto
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 01:46 PM

That is my point Don thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 01:50 PM

"because their opinions were ossified many years ago."
Yup - years ago - in fact as far back as the last time I heard from someone who had been shipped off for a torture session as part of 'the war against tourism' - or, if they're lucky, for a package holiday to Guantanamo - that must have been when..... last week.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST, mg
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 02:00 PM

Oh crap they were not the real heroes, unless we have dumbed down the definition of heroes. I have nothing against them, some of my friends are in that group, they acted according to their consciences, some paid a price of breaking with their families, etc. But to get Canadian citizenship and benefits instead of getting shot at and to be called the real heroes is just stupid in my book. And yes,that is a trigger statement for me, as is baby killer, as is we had to destroy the village to save it etc.etc. Are you deliberately saying provacative things? Maybe not. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM

Has anyone considered whether the premise of this thread is faulty (no offence to the thread starter)? IMO, America WAS great. Now it's just powerful. T'ain't the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 05:05 PM

Peace, America as a powerful nation is (IMO) a delusion which is unfortunately shared by entirely too many individually powerful people. Once, the US military was large enough (purposely) to fight two major wars at one time - the Soviet invasion of Western Europe and the Chinese invasion of the rest of East Asia. Now, it is strained to the breaking point and beyond fighting an amorphous enemy in a third-world nation. Once, Detroit iron ruled the world's highways. Now, two of the three major US auto manufactures are heading for bankruptcy. Once, the US economy drove the world's financial system. Now, the US needs to borrow from China to keep afloat. Sure, the US has enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world. So what? They will never be used. I recommend Fareed Zakaria's book The Post-American World for more insights into this.

HOWEVER, America is still great, for all of the re3asons previously mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Monique
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 07:37 PM

Artbrooks, there also are nice Parisian people... even if I must confess that a BIG lot of French are highly prejudiced against them because of their "nous, à Paris..." + something meaning they're the smartest, and I suppose that if they were, they'd all be college teachers at the very least... Yes, "our friend Google" says that there's still a camping in le bois de Boulogne (yet the camping isn't what this wood is famous for! lol)

Amos: exactly!

And in case you wouldn't know this one video Les Ricains lyrics here

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Monique
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 08:23 PM

Translation to the Les Ricains lyrics

If the Ricans weren't here (meaning "hadn't existed")
You'd all be in Germania*
Talking of I don't know what
Saluting I don't know who

Sure the years went by
Rifles changed hands
Is it a reason to forget
That we once needed them?

A guy from Georgia
Who didn't care for you at all
Came to die in Normandy
A morning you weren't there.

Sure the years went by
We became friends.
At the veterans' association
They say they fell for nothing.

If the Ricans weren't here
You'd all be in Germania
Talking of I don't know what
Saluting I don't know who.

* no mistake, it goes with "Germania", not "Germany"

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 09:09 PM

Merci, Monique.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 11:09 PM

Ah, Monique, cet Michel Sardou c'est an type enorme, non?? Merci pour ca!!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 01:23 AM

OK. I give up.

Why IS America great?

Point form would do.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Monique
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 03:41 AM

You're welcome, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 04:43 AM

"...Lieutenant Calley, the man responsible for roasting the villagers of Mai Lia alive, returned home to a hero's welcome and a successful career in US politics." ~ Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: pdq - PM
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 01:39 PM

"...Lieutenant Calley, the man responsible for roasting the villagers of Mai Lia alive, returned home to a hero's welcome and a successful career in US politics." ~ Jim Carroll

People were "roasted alive". Huh?

He came home to a "hero's welcome"(?). No, he came home as a suspect in the worst episode of the Viet Nam War.

He had a "successful career in politics"(?). No, he was convicted of murder and served prison time. His name is digraced forever.

He was elected to nothing, working for about thirty years at a relative's jewelry store. Probably a guard or such. He ain't to bright.
I not sure if this is edvindance but It seems like it to me.
but then again I might be wrong

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 09:35 AM

Freedom fries...my God. Those were created in Belgium. The French would never stoop to do that to food.

America is great. So, define great. Great means big. America is big. Canada is bigger, so Canada is greater than America. I don't know about the rest of Canada, but the people of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are generally much nicer than Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 10:02 AM

When I think of the 1% of Americans who own 25% of all that there is to own in America, it seems at first that there is a 1 in a hundred chance of being that wealthy too.

but alas, the game is rigged so the American dream is put out of reach every 40 years for all but the existing families of incredible wealth.

The shills they hire like Rush Limbaugh to sell poor people on the rigged dream can be bought cheap. A few houses and all the drugs he wants is all that is required.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 10:41 AM

It seems to me that it would be worth while to find out who that 1% is, so we'd know who's really running Rush Limbaugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 12:47 PM

Great what?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 01:56 PM

Big what?