BS: Why is America Great?

Subject: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 11:29 AM

Why America is Great

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM

Wrong question.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: mg
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:22 PM

Great natural resources, water, counterbalances to a caste system, which of course exists anyway, a strong constitution, tolerance if not delighted welcome to new immgirants, religions that did probably more good than harm in the long run, a basic sense of decency and self-reliance, combined with strong rural communities, neighborhoods, etc. Far from perfect, with many huge shames, the three biggest but far from exlusive being slavery, treatment of Native Americans and treatment of some veterans. Lots more could be added. But the wheel keeps turning and those wrongs are being acknowledged and new ones will spring up and later be corrected. A belief that runs through the country that there is a place called America and it does stand for something, regardless of snippy people constantly trying to nip away at it like termites in your porch. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM

Many countries are great, and for many reasons. A great country can be badly misled.

America, Russia, China, Great Britain, France, Spain, Japan, Brazil...they are all great countries. And there are others. Many others. They can all be badly misled.

To constantly blather on in popular propaganda about your own country being "the greatest country in the world" is one very common way of misleading a nation. The Nazis thought that Germany was the greatest country in the world.

There is no greatest country in the world. No one should ever make such a claim. If they do, it is with the implicit intention of subjugating others and building an empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:47 PM

Now now Little Hawk ye ken thats no quite tru :)

The story of how

God created SCOTLAND


The Story of Scotland.

In the beginning when God was creating the world,
He was sitting on a cloud,
telling his pal the Arch Angel Gabriel
what he planned for Scotland.


" Gabby" says He "I'm going to give this place high majestic mountains, purple glens, soaring eagles, streams laden with salmon, golden fields of barley from which a whisky coloured nectar can be made, green, lush, spectacular golf courses, coal in the ground, oil under the sea,...gas".


" Hold up! Hold up!"

Interjected the bold Gabriel

" Are you not being too generous to these Scots ? "

Back came the Almighty's reply

" Not really, wait until you see the
neighbours I'm giving them !!! "

*ducks and heads for Jaqui's basment

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Janie
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM

Good one, Donuel!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM

Yes, Megan.... (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 02:25 PM

Another vote for Megan! (I gotta remember that.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:46 PM

I'm not sure it is, any more.

And neither are the States United.

Time for a massive rethink about what went wrong with its ideals of democracy and freedom.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:33 PM

Many people inside the USA feel their country is not olly great, but God's chosen country. Seems that it is because they view the rest of the world from the inside the USA perspective. I suspect there is also some nationalistic brainwashing in schools and on TV.

Outside the USA, in 90 opercent of the rest of the world, the USA is not viewed this same way. In my travels, have found similar unrealistic thinking in small isolated islands. In those cases, I found it "cute". Can't say the same for the "we are the greatest" USA attitude, by some. To many I have been told it is viewed as arrogant and rude. (Let me say that there are many USA folks I have met that have a more realistic global vision).

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:00 PM

No country has a corner on rude. The problem is, only the well to do can afford to travel, so all you see in other countries are the assholes who think they came from paradise. I've seen behavior that made me ashamed that I was an American.

In St. Maartin I was having a drink at a pub, and there was a couple there from Canada. We fell to talking and I noticed that he had a little Maple leaf pin on his shirt. I asked why Canadians wear those pins. (It's been my experience that Canadians are not overly patriotic) and he blushed, and was quite uncomfortable. I insisted he tell me, and he did. "Because we don't want to be mistaken for Americans." I said, "Do you have a spare"? he bought me a drink.

In Barbados my wife and I were on a bus and there was a gang of footballers from east London making asses of themselves, forcing the driver (who was black) to stop so they could buy more beer. It was against company rules but did they care if he got fired? They were calling the natives "Spooks". I was glad I wasn't British that day.

Again in St. Maartin, a woman tourist from NY city was ordering a cab driver around, yelling at him to move faster like he was her servant.

And we wonder why foreigners call us arrogant. Is America great? Well, if you consider that we probably have more assholes per capita than any other country I have ever visited, maybe it is. But, we are not unique!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:08 PM

Nah Kendall ye dinny hae mair per capita it jist that in America ye dae things big.

Mind you you should hae seen the luk on the Big Americans face when the Shetland bus driver got fed up wie bein telt how much bigger everything wis. "Thats nothin" says the driver "At our airport we have a runway that goes all the way from the North sea tae the Atlantic Ocean." they drive on a bit along a single track road with water at both sides at one side of the airport and the driver stops the bus. "Ladys and gentlemen that is the Atlantic, and that is the North Sea" all of 15 foot apart :)I met one of the other Americans on the bus a few days later he was still smiling at the peace they got.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:20 PM

I'm reminded of Mark Twain's quote - "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when they deserve it."

It is easy to whine and complain. For some, knocking America is great sport and I suspect it becomes Viagra for a lack of respect that they are missing in their lives.

We cannot ignore problems, and there are certainly many things to fix. We cannot blindly follow leaders because we have a card that says we belong to the same party,or they deserve respect solely because they hold the job of governing.

There are plenty of reasons to be proud of this country and I defy those to deny it. The best reason is the people. When you peel away the layers, you find a core that is full of caring and hard working people. Creative people. Concerned people. People who work for change.

I'm sure this thread will reach triple digits with all the usual Mudcat Cranks who have nothing better to do than grind their ax. If they wish to waste their miserable lives that way, who can stop them. There are more people on Mudcat who do make a difference and refuse to live as pessimists. These are the folks who make a change and do not create division. The true colors are here to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:21 PM

GOOD one, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:27 PM

True, there are far toon many assholes from most nations.
But, these folks from most countries seem to be satisfied to be identified as only assholes.
Unfortunately, IMO, assholes from the USA go out of their way to be idetified as American assholes.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 11:35 PM

And American assholes are great!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 12:03 AM

Some years back a friend and I where quite viciously accused of being Americans by some Yankee hating Irish assholes, at an illegal after hours booze can in Galway City ... They would not believe we were Canadians ... emotions got out of control to the point of being physical when my friend retorted "calling us Americans, is the same as calling you Brits' ... needless to say, my friend and I did survive with the help of some good hearted Irish souls who jumped into the occasion to rescue us from the donnybrook.

The world is great ... unfortunately it is polluted by a just a few assholes.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 12:38 AM

America may be the only country where even a chimp can dream of one day becoming the leader of the nation. If that isn't great, what is? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: mg
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:14 AM

I reviewed my day today to see if I encountered any assholes. Let's see..none at McDonald's, none on the bus (we do have a bus driver here who would really qualify easily but he wasn't driving today), none at work, none at church, none at the laundromat. None walking through town.

Where do they gather? Perhaps in other states. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 02:45 AM

mg - Try going to your local bars...the really seedy ones...and be there between 10pm and 1am. Try going to the crack houses in your downtown area. You will find them. You're just not hanging out in the right places.

In my experience most people do not qualify as "assholes". Most people are pretty nice and pretty well meaning most of the time. I figure that in any 50 or so people you will probably find an average of only about 1 "asshole".

Same deal when you're driving. There are a few "assholes" on the road...and we all remember them when we encounter them...but the other 98% of the drivers out there seem to drive in an inoffensive manner most of the time.

We just NOTICE the ones who don't, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 02:57 AM

One more thought: It also helps if you overtly act like an "asshole" yourself when looking around for "assholes"...because like attracts like. ;-) Assholish behaviour in one person can often prompt similarly assholish responses from others whom you would never have recognized AS assholes if you hadn't first provoked them into revealing themselves!

(An "asshole is really just a very insecure person who reacts aggressively and inappropriately when under stress of some kind...provide some stress and "Voila!" He or she will appear out of nowhere.)

So, it's easy. Just get really aggressive and pushy with other people. Take offense quickly and easily. Say, "What the hell are YOU lookin' at?" to people you encounter in bars or parking lots, and accompany the question with a hostile glare.

You will be amazed to find "assholes" at every turn... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 07:30 AM

Fascinating thread.

Now you all know what it feels like to be English, except with far less guilt and self-doubt. Bravo!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 07:51 AM

"Where do they gather? Perhaps in other states. mg"


             Washington DC is full of 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 12:20 PM

Here is one guys experience?

http://www.iamcarter.com/blog/archives/2006/07/an_open_letter_1.html

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:16 PM

You will be amazed to find "assholes" at every turn.

Spell it either way, everyone has just one.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:17 PM

Context, McGrath. Context is everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:01 PM

America has the freedom of a concentrated ruling class and low educational standards to allow Military and financial fascist takeovers to proceed with nary more than a hiccup.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM

Indeed. Also, it has had a consumer marketing system in place which has been very effective at keeping the general public distracted, addicted, sedated, and oblivious.

If there's a real financial collapse, though, you will see some serious cracks appearing in that facade, and you will then see the rise of some more radical viewpoints.

A clever enough form of fascism, however, can use that sort of societal instability to consolidate and strengthen its grip on power. People get angry? People get scared? You just increase domestic police powers and clamp down on the "troublemakers". Maybe get some private outfits like Blackwater to provide squads of "security" personnel to deal with it, like they did in the aftermath of Katrina. Give them black shirts this time, I say. It will be a nice match for the stealth bombers and blackhawk helicopters.

When your government starts using war vehicles that look like the personal choice of Darth Vader or Batman...watch out.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 08:42 PM

For the same reason Hitler thought we were vile: because we are a mongrel country, populated by waves of immigrants. F. S. Key told us to "praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation", and indeed, it would take divine intervention to make us a nation in the etymological sense: a group of people who can pretend that they all descended from the same totem. Sure, we all hate each other, but we are estopped by history from taking our hatreds as seriously as comes natural in the world's plentiful ethnic pest zones. The wretched refuse of their teeming shore has made a land of wealth and freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:13 PM

If the great melting pot was real, there wouldn't be a Little Italy, a Chinatown or a Haarlem.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:24 PM

Try

http://www.cafepress.com/thewhitehouse.24459759

If that does not work<, go to


http://www.assholesamongus.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:10 AM

Let's get one thing straight. If God did exist it's highly unlikely that He would favour one country over another.

Furthermore, throughout history, He seems to have 'chosen' several countries to favour at any one time. Either all but one are mistaken or He is practising deception and playing them off against each other (for Unknowable purposes?).

So, if you think that your particular country is favoured by God there's a fair chance that you're either mistaken or you're being deceived.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM

" if you think that your particular country is favoured by God there's a fair chance that you're either mistaken or you're being deceived. "

Where did that come up in the conversation? Perhaps you have a perception that we are running around saying that "God is on our side", but you are mistaken. Whatever media YOU are listening to is feeding you crap.

Let's all sit around and whine some more and nothing will get fixed. There are so many shithouse lawyers in this forum, most from other countries, but I can not see ANYONE here doing ANYTHING to make the world or their own country a better place. Think globably and act localy - what the are you doing?   There is a great collection of people here who enjoy the fine art of complaining and pontificating, but spend most of their time sitting on their ass.   You are part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM

"Let's all sit around and whine some more and nothing will get fixed. There are so many shithouse lawyers in this forum, most from other countries, but I can not see ANYONE here doing ANYTHING to make the world or their own country a better place. Think globably and act localy - what the are you doing?   There is a great collection of people here who enjoy the fine art of complaining and pontificating, but spend most of their time sitting on their ass.   You are part of the problem".

Where did that come up in this post conversation?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:46 AM

"Where did that come up in this post conversation? "

Just read through the posts in this thread, it is very evident. Lots of complaints, very little suggestion and no action.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:24 PM

Not really -just people discussing.

By the way, America has a massive influence good or bad on the lives of many of us "from other countries" so these people have a legitimate right to be involved in the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM

Ron, these are simply some people having a conversation and discussing ideas they have. If you don't like some of the ideas, that's your prerogative, but don't trot out the old horse about people doing something that will legitimize their right (in your opinion) to participate in a discussion.

You don't know what any of us are doing or not doing in our own private lives, it's none of your business anyway, and we are not behooved to prove to you or anyone else that we have a right to talk about things on an internet forum.

We have free speech, Ron, and you can't take it away from us. We don't like your nattering and complaining any better than you like ours, by the way. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

No one is trying to take away your "free speech" (which actually doesn't exist on a site like this.)

Perhap I over-reacted to all the bitching and moaning that is a pastime here. I'm also tired of the "old horse" of complaining and then calling it a "discussion". A discussion is an exchange of ideas and usually works to finding solutions. That does not seem to be the case here.

I guess it is just me. My apologies. The rest of you seem to enjoy it, so I will leave you to your jollies.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:14 PM

Well, free speech is always sort of conditional, isn't it? I mean, I can talk anytime I want to, but what if the site moderator deletes my post? I can talk to another person in 3D if I want to, but what if they refuse to talk to me? I can talk on the phone, but what if the other person hangs up on me? Dennis Kucinich can talk in the primary debates, but what if the network decides not to let him participate? And what if ABC, NBC, CNN, and the rest decide not to report what he is saying when he says it?

Then he still has free speech, technically speaking, but most people don't get to ever hear what he says...

So it's always only a relative measure of freedom.

Anyway, it is handsome of you to say what you said above, Ron, and I appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:15 PM

"You don't know what any of us are doing or not doing in our own private lives, it's none of your business anyway"

One last thing - you are right, I do not know and it is none of my business.... BUT... I would hope that there are some people that post here that DO wish to share what they are doing and perhaps inspire the rest of us. I am the first to admit that I feel frustrated and I could use some good examples from others.   Inspiration can make a difference.   Complaining serves no purpose, as evidenced by my own griping about the thread. I wish some folks here would be more positive and help inspire the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:17 PM

" it is handsome of you to say what you said above, Ron, and I appreciate it"

Thanks LH, I did mean it. It has been a rough weekend (my Mets folding once again did not help)and I have been guilty of being cranky.   I always hope that Mudcat could be more inspirational instead of a gathering point for complaints. The world is too divided as it is, we need hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:20 PM

"what if ABC, NBC, CNN, and the rest decide not to report what he is saying when he says it?"

Good point. With the millions of voices, it is impossible for EVERYONE to be heard. I guess Mudcat does offer SOME opportunity to raise an opinion.

The idea of free speech is that you cannot stop someone from speaking their mind, and I apologize if my earlier message was construed as an attempt to do that. My own "free speech" entitles me to speak out when I see something that can be turned into a more positive application.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM

Yeah. We all long for positive inspiration. No doubt about that.

I think that all nations are great in one respect or another. They all have something wonderful about them if you get to know the culture and the land. So, it's natural for people to love their country and be proud of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:01 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk - PM
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 12:38 AM

America may be the only country where even a chimp can dream of one day becoming the leader of the nation. If that isn't great, what is? ;-)

LH, is this an allusion to a movie or something ?

I sure hope so ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:32 PM

Little Hawk, just a point. The name of the thread is Why Is America Great, not why America is the greatest. So whats the reason for-

"To constantly blather on in popular propaganda about your own country being "the greatest country in the world"?

I love America, but you're right, its not THE greatest, no one country can be. There are a number of things that make America great for ME-an incredible diversity of music, baseball, and that great spark of American ingenuity and lets get this done now, are just a few of my favorite characteristics, and why I think we are. But I'm too much of a realist to say America is THE greatest. I dont believe in any absolute.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:48 PM

Absolutely, Irishenglish. We are in agreement on that.

I commented on the old "our country is the greatest country in the world" aspect simply because it is so often repeated in American political rhetoric...like a mantra. That makes it a matter of concern to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: maeve
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:52 PM

Here is a possibility for positive inspiration and productive action:


Google 10 to the 100th thread


It occurs to me that the guidelines detailed at the website could offer a organizational structure for any individual or group wishing to hold out a helping hand to others, whether or not you choose to enter the grant competition.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM

Damn, DonT - I'm going to have to agree with you again.

But may I provide a sharp stick (for insertion into the eye) for the bigoted slumcult above who writes "shithouse lawyers, mostly from other nations"?

1. If your nation has no respect, merely fear, from others, you are not great, merely mighty.
2. I get very fed up with the use of the term "lawyer" as merely another form of abuse. If you had the brains, you'd get qualified.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:04 PM

The metamucil not working for your Richard?

I was cranky today, what is your excuse?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: heric
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:49 PM

Holy crap. 95 Dems and 133 Republicans voted against the bailout even with its 100 pages of fabric softening.

I said it may be impossible to do something of this magnitude in the peak of election season, but I didn't really believe that nothing at all would emerge from Congress.

So we may get definitive test analyses over the next ten years on whether America is still great, or soft and lazy and selfish.

We're going on a national diet and exercise program, folks.