BS: Why is America Great?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 01:56 PM

Big what?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 12:47 PM

Great what?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 10:41 AM

It seems to me that it would be worth while to find out who that 1% is, so we'd know who's really running Rush Limbaugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 10:02 AM

When I think of the 1% of Americans who own 25% of all that there is to own in America, it seems at first that there is a 1 in a hundred chance of being that wealthy too.

but alas, the game is rigged so the American dream is put out of reach every 40 years for all but the existing families of incredible wealth.

The shills they hire like Rush Limbaugh to sell poor people on the rigged dream can be bought cheap. A few houses and all the drugs he wants is all that is required.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 09:35 AM

Freedom fries...my God. Those were created in Belgium. The French would never stoop to do that to food.

America is great. So, define great. Great means big. America is big. Canada is bigger, so Canada is greater than America. I don't know about the rest of Canada, but the people of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are generally much nicer than Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 04:43 AM

"...Lieutenant Calley, the man responsible for roasting the villagers of Mai Lia alive, returned home to a hero's welcome and a successful career in US politics." ~ Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: pdq - PM
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 01:39 PM

"...Lieutenant Calley, the man responsible for roasting the villagers of Mai Lia alive, returned home to a hero's welcome and a successful career in US politics." ~ Jim Carroll

People were "roasted alive". Huh?

He came home to a "hero's welcome"(?). No, he came home as a suspect in the worst episode of the Viet Nam War.

He had a "successful career in politics"(?). No, he was convicted of murder and served prison time. His name is digraced forever.

He was elected to nothing, working for about thirty years at a relative's jewelry store. Probably a guard or such. He ain't to bright.
I not sure if this is edvindance but It seems like it to me.
but then again I might be wrong

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Monique
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 03:41 AM

You're welcome, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 01:23 AM

OK. I give up.

Why IS America great?

Point form would do.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 11:09 PM

Ah, Monique, cet Michel Sardou c'est an type enorme, non?? Merci pour ca!!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 09:09 PM

Merci, Monique.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Monique
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 08:23 PM

Translation to the Les Ricains lyrics

If the Ricans weren't here (meaning "hadn't existed")
You'd all be in Germania*
Talking of I don't know what
Saluting I don't know who

Sure the years went by
Rifles changed hands
Is it a reason to forget
That we once needed them?

A guy from Georgia
Who didn't care for you at all
Came to die in Normandy
A morning you weren't there.

Sure the years went by
We became friends.
At the veterans' association
They say they fell for nothing.

If the Ricans weren't here
You'd all be in Germania
Talking of I don't know what
Saluting I don't know who.

* no mistake, it goes with "Germania", not "Germany"

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Monique
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 07:37 PM

Artbrooks, there also are nice Parisian people... even if I must confess that a BIG lot of French are highly prejudiced against them because of their "nous, à Paris..." + something meaning they're the smartest, and I suppose that if they were, they'd all be college teachers at the very least... Yes, "our friend Google" says that there's still a camping in le bois de Boulogne (yet the camping isn't what this wood is famous for! lol)

Amos: exactly!

And in case you wouldn't know this one video Les Ricains lyrics here

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 05:05 PM

Peace, America as a powerful nation is (IMO) a delusion which is unfortunately shared by entirely too many individually powerful people. Once, the US military was large enough (purposely) to fight two major wars at one time - the Soviet invasion of Western Europe and the Chinese invasion of the rest of East Asia. Now, it is strained to the breaking point and beyond fighting an amorphous enemy in a third-world nation. Once, Detroit iron ruled the world's highways. Now, two of the three major US auto manufactures are heading for bankruptcy. Once, the US economy drove the world's financial system. Now, the US needs to borrow from China to keep afloat. Sure, the US has enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world. So what? They will never be used. I recommend Fareed Zakaria's book The Post-American World for more insights into this.

HOWEVER, America is still great, for all of the re3asons previously mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM

Has anyone considered whether the premise of this thread is faulty (no offence to the thread starter)? IMO, America WAS great. Now it's just powerful. T'ain't the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST, mg
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 02:00 PM

Oh crap they were not the real heroes, unless we have dumbed down the definition of heroes. I have nothing against them, some of my friends are in that group, they acted according to their consciences, some paid a price of breaking with their families, etc. But to get Canadian citizenship and benefits instead of getting shot at and to be called the real heroes is just stupid in my book. And yes,that is a trigger statement for me, as is baby killer, as is we had to destroy the village to save it etc.etc. Are you deliberately saying provacative things? Maybe not. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 01:50 PM

"because their opinions were ossified many years ago."
Yup - years ago - in fact as far back as the last time I heard from someone who had been shipped off for a torture session as part of 'the war against tourism' - or, if they're lucky, for a package holiday to Guantanamo - that must have been when..... last week.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jayto
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 01:46 PM

That is my point Don thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:52 PM

Which, of course, is why they had a revolution and chopped off so many heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:49 PM

ANyway, the French generally understand why America is great and honor the core idea that is the real seat of any greatness it has, the notion that all men are created equal, and that self-government by free people is not only possible but desirable.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:48 PM

"One of the great sayings of the past 'before you were born' is 'If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem' - in other words, if you allow your government to carry out such actions on your behalf you're bound to be judged along with them."

The problem with statements such as this, and sweeping generalizations that condemn (or, for that matter, extol) an entire country for the actions of its government is that there are many people who did not participate or "allow" this to happen, but strenuously objected, protested, and worked against these actions. This kind of generalization condemns the protesters along with the perpetrators, and is simply unfair. The attempt to impose collective guilt on the populace of an entire country—or any other aggregate of people—is indistinguishable from simple bigotry.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:41 PM

'Tis true...'tis true...its the Parisians, not the French. I remember camping in the Bois de Bolougne (sp?) (is there still a public campground there - this was 1972) next to a guy from Marseille who told us not to be concerned...the Parisians treated him the same way!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:35 PM

C'mon I laughed at the stupidity as well. It is still laughed at in the US even today.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:26 PM

From Wikipedia:

"On 11 March 2003, Representatives Robert W. Ney (R-Ohio) and Walter B. Jones, Jr. (R-North Carolina) declared that all references to French fries and French toast on the menus of the restaurants and snack bars run by the House of Representatives would be removed. House cafeterias were ordered to rename French fries to "freedom fries".

"This action was carried out without a congressional vote, under the authority of Ney's position as Chairman of the Committee on House Administration, which oversees restaurant operations for the chamber. The simultaneous renaming of French toast to "freedom toast" attracted less attention.[1]"

I personally don't know anyone who did anything but laugh at the stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:19 PM

France and the French have gotten a real bad rap in the American media for a very long time.

             Remember when those dizzy Congress people wanted to rename French fries, freedom fries?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:58 AM

Oh man what a thread! lol

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:43 AM

In numerous trips to and through France, I have never seen the famous French rudeness you speak of.

I have seen American stupidity on display, tho'--perhaps that is where the idea of French rudeness comes from?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:22 AM

artbrooks, thank you.

About the French, Monique, I think that was mostly a tongue in cheek remark. For some reason, the "rudeness" of the French - or Parisians, in particular - has been 'chewed' in this country (The English don't like the Greeks, the Greeks don't like the Turks, the French don't like anybody) for generations. But I would hate to think where the US would be had it not been for the French very early on.

It has been enough of a truism in this country that some friends of mine were somewhat surprised to find that they had a lovely time in Paris. Not to worry.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Monique
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:05 AM

"I understand that the French are rude to everyone" I as a French person find that rude! French assholes are rude just as any asshole from any country and I never knew that there was a poll to figure out the percentage of assholes in each and every country. First we'd have to agree about what an asshole is considering everyone's point of view (let's take some beers and sandwitches, it's going to last a long time...) to find out that "The world is great ... unfortunately it is polluted by a just a few assholes" as biLL said just above.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: number 6
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 08:46 AM

again I repeat in this thread ...

"The world is great ... unfortunately it is polluted by a just a few assholes."

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 06:51 AM

Kendall, The only places I have been treated rudely because I am an American (and I don't much care for that term) were France and Canada...but I understand that the French are rude to everyone.

Jayto, there are people here with whom you cannot have a rational discussion. On the topic of the US, two of them are Jim Carroll and Little Hawk (the latter of whom has many other outstanding qualities), because their opinions were ossified many years ago.

Is America great? Of course it is - and so are many other nations, each in their own way. Have we, individually and collectively, made mistakes over the past 225 years? Of course we have, and I would challenge the yank-bashers present to say - and prove - that their own nations have not. Do we "allow our government to carry out" actions on our behalf that are probably illegal and immoral? Perhaps so. Our political structure does not allow for fast regime changes, even when the majority disapproves of the actions of the minority. Should we opt for the alternatives of military juntas or parliamentary revolving doors? I think not.

I think someone said earlier in this discussion that 'we are talking about America, not Americans'. They cannot be separated. "America" consists of over 300 million people, spread out over 3.5 million square miles (or 9.2 million square kilometers, if you prefer). However, it is not empty land, however beautiful. America is not the policies and opinions of a few hundred individuals (or a single individual) stuck on a piece of former swamp between Virginia and Maryland, nor is it the life style of the 8.5 million people stuck in the 300 square miles that comprises New York City. I was in San Antonio for a week last month and we drove over to Phoenix last weekend - a minor matter of a 1,000 miles round trip - and met people in both places of various shades of tan/brown who spoke a number of different languages...but they are all Americans and all part of what makes this country great. They may individually choose to be part of the minority that actively or passively participates in our political process and they may or may not resemble any of the demographics that the media and others point at with pride or alarm but, collectively, they are America.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 03:58 AM

"You forgot Panama."
A Guardian report once gave a list of over 50 countries the US had dropped bombs on since the end of WWII.
"How can you categorize me as an American as being bad"
Nobody is suggesting that you are 'bad' Jayto - the question was about America, not Americans - and the answer, as far as some of us are concerned is 'maybe America is not as great as she thinks it is'. To categorise Americans as being 'bad' because they are Americans would be as racist as suggesting that all Muslims or Irish are terrorists or potential terrorists.
As far as some of us are concerned, while Guantanamo Concentration Camp, internment without trial, torture (be it by or on behalf of the US), collateral damage, extreme rendition and all the other human rights outrages carried out by the US in "The fight against tourism" as your ex-leader so quaintly put it, America will be a country to be feared rather than respected and admired.
One of the great sayings of the past 'before you were born' is "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem" - in other words, if you allow your government to carry out such actions on your behalf you re bound to be judged along with them.
I treasure my friendships with the draft-dodgers I stood shoulder-to-shoulder with on the anti - Viet Nam war demonstrations - they were the real war (or maybe peace) heroes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: pdq
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 11:10 PM

Original sin?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 11:05 PM

I wasn't even born then. How can you categorize me as an American as being bad over an event that took place before my birth?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 08:38 PM

You forgot Panama.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 05:11 PM

As I raised the point I had better clarify.
The report of villagers being driven into their huts which were then set on fire appeared in a long Sunday Times Colour supplement article shortly after the event. I took the cutting for a 'Living Newspaper' show we were doing at the time.
The information on the massacre was skimpy as both the US Military and the US agencies were running round like blue-arsed flies trying to cover up what had happened. If the report was inaccurate, I am happy to accept that and withdraw the statement.
In the light of the facts that emerged later it it is academic anyway as the documented behaviour of the troops was bestial - rape, murder, mutilation.... you name it, they did it, (except, of course, beasts don't behave like that - do they?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:02 PM

"..there are people on this thread who don't beleive that Americans roasted villages" Goatfell

Give us some evidence for it and we will seriously consider the charge. Or do you prefer to snipe from a distance?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 07:30 AM

On the other hand, not all nations aspire to 'greatness'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 04:19 AM

there are people on this thread who don't beleive that Americans roasted villages in vietnam it's like people not beleivng that the holucost happened, close your eyes and it's out your mind. There are some people in America that are great and some are not and you do torture people the same as here in Britian and else where I wouldn't say America is great , It's just like every other country it's has it's good point and bad points

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:36 AM

"For how long must a people be held responsible for what their governments did at one time in history?"
"In the words of the prophet, "Shit happens."
How long - until shit like Iraq, Iran, Grenada, Cuba, Nicaragua, Chile - everywhere the US, either openly or through its various clandestine organisations such as the CIA, ceases to interfere in world politics .... in other words, until shit stops happening.
Until America being great means it is getting down to solving its own domestic problems like poverty, inequality, a gun law that dates back to Dodge City, a health system that allows millions to die because they can't afford medical care, government policy that is sucking the planet dry of its natural resources - above all, until the answer to the question "Why is America Great?" isn't "My army is bigger than your army".
World forgiveness for the barbaric behaviour of the US in Viet Nam will only come with genuine contrition, not because it was a war they lost.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jayto
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 06:16 PM

Ebbie that is why I asked for clarification. I want to mak sure that is what he meant. When I know for sure I have plenty to say :) The BS section is a hornets nest anyway but this is big time fuel lol.

Whats up Peace hows my brother man today?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 05:34 PM

The absolute best line I ever heard about that, mg, is the following: A Lt.Col. Sumner was approached by a civilian (I think in SanFrancisco) and the guy yelled at him, "What are you doing in Vietnam?" Sumner replied, "I thought YOU knew. You sent me."

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: mg
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 05:19 PM

I don't remember great welcoming parties for any Vietnam veterans personally...just a lot of abuse in general. But, as I said in another post, there are protected groups that it is socially OK to bash somehow. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 05:15 PM

In the words of the prophet, "Shit happens."

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 04:03 PM

"I do not withdraw my original point that the people of a nation as a whole stand responsible for actions carried out in their name; there are many other examples, past and current, I could have chosen." Jim Carroll

For how long must a people be held responsible for what their governments did at one time in history?

Germans come to mind.

The English also.

Many more.

Blaming the people comes close, imo, to blaming and stigmaizing and penalizing/prosecuting indefinitely the whole family when one of its members goes bad. How sustainable is that argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 03:30 PM

Jim please elaborate about the people are accountable. I want to make sure I am not getting the wrong impression here. Do you understand what I am trying to say or do I need to elaborate. I have found in the past sometimes the point is not made as clear as you think it is. I have been guilty in the past about the mistake and I may be now. Could you please elaborate your point and let me know if I need to elaborate mine. I don't want an argument I just want to be sure I am making my viewpoint clear and I have yours clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 03:08 PM

goatfell, the experts at the time estimated that if we had to invade the Japanese home islands it would cost nearly a million lives. Dropping the big one killed about 100,000. Do the math.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 03:01 PM

I stand corrected - I have recollections of Calley being greeted by a large welcoming party and announcing he was going into politics; if, as it seems, this is incorrect, I apologise.
I do not withdraw my original point that the people of a nation as a whole stand responsible for actions carried out in their name; there are many other examples, past and current, I could have chosen.
""Its source is Ceallach, an Irish Gaelic name meaning 'strife, war'"
"Ceallach" is Irish for
1.   A recluse or hermit.
3.   Celled or cellular.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 02:21 PM

By all accounts, Calley was/is a piece of work. However I find nothing intimating anything of the sort that Jim Carroll charged. If foreign news reported other than what we in the US heard, I would appreciate a link to the material. If no link is forthcoming I can only presume that people believe and pass on whatever rumours that reach - and please - them.

A Lengthy Account

"After deliberating for 79 hours and 57 minutes, the jury returned a verdict. They had found Calley guilty of premeditated murder of 22 of the villagers of My Lai. One juror claimed that they "had labored long and hard to find some way, some evidence, or some flaw in the testimony so we could find Lt. Calley innocent." Before the jury reconvened to decide his punishment, Calley was allowed to address the jury and said, "Yesterday you stripped me of all my honor, please by your actions that you take here today, don't strip future soldiers of their honor-I beg you." The prosecution responded that Calley had stripped himself of his honor by murdering women and children.

"After seven hours the jury sentenced Calley to life of hard labor. In the end, he only served days in a Fort Benning stockade before being placed under house arrest. His sentence was repeatedly reduced. Finally, his sentence was commuted to time served by President Nixon. He was paroled in November, 1974.

"Calley recently retired from his job as the manager at his father-in-law's jewelery store. He avoids interviews about My Lai--unless he is paid to give them."


Bio

A Timeline

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 01:53 PM

Also for Jim Carroll:

Calley: "Its source is Ceallach, an Irish Gaelic name meaning 'strife, war' "

Subject: RE: BS: Why is America Great?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 01:39 PM

"...Lieutenant Calley, the man responsible for roasting the villagers of Mai Lia alive, returned home to a hero's welcome and a successful career in US politics." ~ Jim Carroll

People were "roasted alive". Huh?

He came home to a "hero's welcome"(?). No, he came home as a suspect in the worst episode of the Viet Nam War.

He had a "successful career in politics"(?). No, he was convicted of murder and served prison time. His name is digraced forever.

He was elected to nothing, working for about thirty years at a relative's jewelry store. Probably a guard or such. He ain't to bright.