BBC TV Guitar Series

Subject: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,JohnMc
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:18 AM

Start of a three-part history with Alan Yentob tonight, BBC1.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:27 AM

This is the 3rd thread about this one programme. It surely won't be THAT good . . .

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:09 AM

I think its going to be stinker...typical BBC dross. Same old farty footage of the same old farts. finished off with a 'hopeful' finale. You can almost write it yourself:-

'And even bright young hopefuls of the new folk music scene Seth Lakeman and Kate Rusby still count the old six strings as their best and most trusted friend!

Here is Puff Diddy with his new work incorporating samples of guitars played by ......yawn!'

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,JohnMc
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 10:59 AM

I believe it will be looking at the development of the instrument, historically, and I must say I have enjoyed other A Yentob programmes.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: fat B****rd
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 03:45 PM

Let's wait and see, eh ?

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM

I `ad that Alan Yentob in my cab the other day.( Funny name, it`s Botney backwards)
I said, "`ere Alan, on that Mudcat, they`re all talking about your guitar programme on the old tv."
`e said, "Are they? Whadda they reckon then?"
I said, "Well, most of `em seem to be looking forward to it although that weelittledrummer gave you a slagging."
`e said, "Well, whadda you expect from drummers. If the thing don`t go crash, bang ,wallop they`re not bleedin` interested!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:11 AM

toldya!
wotta loada cobblers!

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:20 AM

WLD cobblers??..was the show about shoes??

he he

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:44 AM

Dear old Bert Weedon was in the programme - and, yes, I also bought his (as we used to call it) "Play With Yourself In A Day" book in 1964. Bless him - even the cheesy bits of him on TV! Really loved the clip of Wayne Henderson - who is NOT an old fart who's trotted out regularly on these programmes, but a man of genius.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:22 AM

Bert Weedon was great.Also a lot of other priceless stuff However,I feel the ridiculous bits of "old film"(eg of Greek gods etc were a total waste of time. And, more crucially, a waste of money. Just think how much of the budget went on those films. That could have been spent on interviewing a few more great guitarists and showing us clips of them, (it was meant to be a documentary about the guitar wasn't it?).
Basically it was the usual "celebrity finding out stuff" format for documentaries, whereas I have always preferred the "somebody who knows stuff to start with" type of thing.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:39 AM

Unbelievable crap, or the first twenty minutes was. I turned it off in disgust after that. What was that shot of a bittern doing in there? Yes I get it. Gittern, cittern, bittern. How about Bannockburn, comintern, Lucerne, Saturn or maybe even discern. As in "the discerning viewer would not be seen dead watching it".

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:36 AM

Unbelievable.....I sodding believed it.

Mr Henderson does indeed appear to be accomplished, but what of Alan Marshall, Stefan Sobell, Rob Armstrong, Roger BucKnall, George Lowden.... they could have have saved one bus fare at least!

Is this a new_thing:-

I can barely hold a guitar, but I think we should publicly fund a film about me trotting out all the facts that make coffee table books about the guitar such a regularly remaindered item in Words Bookshop.

I don't think I know anything about sunbathing in The Maldives. Can I do a documentary about it?

We need volunteers - is there anyone who knows absolutely nothing about the Pussycat Club in Bangkok?

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Zen
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:37 AM

Perhaps I am alone here... but I generally enjoyed it and thought it was quite well done and informative for the most part.

Zen

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:50 AM

I thoroughly enjoyed it though agree with Greg about the "pseudo" old films clips. I look forward to the rest of the series.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:15 AM

"We need volunteers - is there anyone who knows absolutely nothing about the Pussycat Club in Bangkok?"

I know quite a few people who know nothing about folk music. Quite a few of them have appeared on tv talking about folk music.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,JohnMc
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:29 AM

Surely we can overlook some of the more "exotic" items when we had a wonderful clip of Django, and John Etheridge's contribution; also, the man from Virginia building guitars was a joy.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM

No, I can't overlook the exotic items. I would have liked more about guitars and guitar players, as that was what it was billed as. It reminds me of the series of stuff they put out aq while back about those incredible old film they had discovered in a barrel in Bolton, or somewhere. (Mitchell and somebody, can't remember the names of the people who took the films). Anyway, instead of letting you watch lots of the films, they showed you a tiny fragment, and then some fake "old films" purporting to represent how "hilarious" it must have been when they were filming.
   Presumably they have a special "hilarious old film department" at the BBC where they manufacture this stuff, whether it is wanted or not.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:49 PM

wouldn't it have been be better if that "wonderful" clip of Django had been part of a programme which befitted it?

Some time ago BBC4 did a programme on the harp. Yes it was bit 'I don't know much about the harp so I'm off to find someone who does'. And yes, it covered a bit of ground that personally didn't interest me. (Alan Stivell if you must know). But it was a serious well conceived look at an instrument which doesn't get too much coverage, and it was packed with an amazing amount of information about history and construction and playing techniques. So why do people like Alan Yentob insist on presenting us with unalloyed drivel in the guise of serious entertainment?

Something to do with ratings perhaps?

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:11 PM

I guess you either like that sort of thing or you don't. And we obviously split into two camps.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM

Perhaps the programme wasnt made with the guitar cognescenti solely in mind.
I bet that theres quite a few would happily watch a whole series with John Etheridge analysing Djangos technique or having a peek inside various luthiers shops around the globe and exploring the process of tap tuning, but I would hardly be fair on the rest of the licence payers(but it would give a little respite from all the reality bollocks!!!!!)
As far as I'm concerned it wasn't perfect but for the first time in ages I'm going to make sure that I stop what I'm doing to watch a tv prog next week

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:23 AM

I used to work for the Beeb many, many years ago (1960s), and I think there is a huge difference between their position in broadcasting then and now. BBC Television and Independent Television had a monopoly in TV output - and could afford to make specialist programmes which appealed to a comparatively small section of the watching population. Think of the "Monitor" series and some of the arts programming of Huw Wheldon.

The position today is totally different, with a multiplicity of broadcasting and media production companies in competition, and the license fee constantly under threat. The dilemma for the Beeb now is whether to constantly go for ratings and reach the highest number of viewers, or whether to take the risk of making specialised programms which apeal to a minority but don't hit the ratings spot. There was an interesting debate on BBC4 recently which looked back at art history programmes over the years - ranging from "Civilisation" to "Rolf On Art" - which highlighted just that dilemma.

The BBC4 programme on the harp was just such an example of the older style, and an excellent production it was. I think they could have done a similar programme on the guitar, but it probably (in their ratings-tinted view) wouldn't have cut it. It was, after all, on BBC1. So, for me, the guitar programme was a bit of a curate's egg - good in parts.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:49 AM

"I used to work for the Beeb many, many years ago (1960s), and I think there is a huge difference between their position in broadcasting then and now."

You could certainly sing that if you had an air to it. Remember all those wonderful documentaries from the '70s and '80s? Civilisation, America, Life on Earth. Class productions presented by people who knew what they were talking about. Now, to stand a chance of getting on air, documentaries have to be fronted by a "celebrity". Never mind whether the celebrity knows or cares anything about the subject matter, as Griff Rhys Jones clearly did when he presented that excellent documentary on Thomas Hardy recently. Or as Alan Yentob clearly didn't when he presented that frightful mishmash last Sunday.

And it's not just documentaries. Remember I Claudius? Remember The Six Wives of Henry V111 and many more of similar ilk? Big Brother, I spit on you.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:38 AM

How the BBC did guitar programmes back in 1957 ...

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:57 AM

I wonder what Jimmy Page's "biological research" actually turned out to be...

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,JohnMc
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:58 AM

To take one part of the programme, it was the first time I had ever seen what book-matched timber in a guitar workshop looked like (though I had often read about it); the extinguishing of the lighted match was a revelation, the fact that the maker's name was burned on the wood, the actual scalloping of the bracing- all on film for the first time, for me at any rate.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:01 AM

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly - PM
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:57 AM

I wonder what Jimmy Page's "biological research" actually turned out to be...

of a gynaecological nature, by all accounts ...

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:07 AM

"How the BBC did guitar programmes back in 1957 ..."

Ok., a lot of early tv was frightful. The early programme makers lacked experience and expertise, as that clip demonstrated. But what do we say now that tv makers have vast arrays of experience and expertise, and still make programmes which insult the intelligence of their audience?

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:17 AM

There was a huge change in the BBC in 1960 when Hugh Carleton-Greene became Director-General. He really did pull the organisation out its pre-war, classbound attitudes and a lot of the classy programming that went on from then on was down to his personality, energy and vision. He was, of course, detested by Mary Whitehouse - so he couldn't have been all bad.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Dazbo
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM

Not watched it yet but what I think you are missing is the Alan Botney does "Art" tv not documentary. Personally, I'd rather watch this than Tracey Emin's bed :-)

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Silver Slug
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:58 AM

I like Alan Yentob as a presenter and don't see what his lack of in depth knowledge has to do with his ability to get others to impart their expertise. I found the programme both entertaining and informative and I enjoyed particularly the clips of Segovia, Django Reinhardt and the US guitar workshop.

The BBC still commission excellent documentary series (David Attenborough's programmes, for example) and I think that some of the criticsm on here is unfounded.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:06 AM

A complete and utter load of shite.

I didn't last as long as Mr McCormick - I had had my guts full after about 10 minutes.

Guitar series my arse.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:50 AM

Good grief man its only a television programme after all is said and done

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:00 PM

hard to explain to civilians.

but basically the main objection is this:-

for untold thousands of us throughout England, and millions worldwide, the guitar is like the true cross used to be.

Its just about all we have left to believe in. It puts a glint in the eye and a tilt in the kilt. It is redemption and salvation.

It makes shit lives tolerable, shit jobs survivable.

It provides us with heroes and saints, for lots of us its a way of making a living, for others its something to live for.

Coleridge called church bells 'the poor man's only music.' and Joni Mitchel called the strings of her guitar 'the hexagram of heaven'- and I suppose that is what I'm driving at.

In a gross and materialistic world - the guitar is a voice of spirituality and passion that many of us hear.

I'm not sure that Alan Yentob has even the noticed the fire this instrument lights within people.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:12 PM

You can complain that the rose bush has thorns......

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Silver Slug
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM

"In a gross and materialistic world - the guitar is a voice of spirituality and passion that many of us hear. I'm not sure that Alan Yentob has even the noticed the fire this instrument lights within people."

Well, I have wanted to light a fire under any number of performers I've had the misfortune to hear, and it would have been an added bonus to use their instruments as fuel! And believe me, I would do it with passion!

So, is it Mr. Yentob to whom you object or is it the content of the programme? Don't get me wrong, it wan't perfect; it could have done without the actors and the stupid little sketches, for instance. But I enjoyed the hour and I did actually learn a little about the origins of the guitar.

I do wonder sometimes at some of the carping that goes on about the BBC. I've seen what I consider to be irrational criticsm of Mike Harding's programme, coverage of Cambridge Festival, Jools Holland's show and so on. I consider it irrational because there doesn't appear to be anything from any other source to which the BBC can be compared.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:43 PM

Silver Slug: because the BBC is very good does not mean it couldn't get better. I expect artists to spend their lives trying to get better at what they do(which is what 99% of them try to). I expect the BBC to do the same.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:44 PM

we had a wonderful clip of Django, and John Etheridge's contribution; also, the man from Virginia building guitars

I missed all of that. I very nearly switched off after the first section - ooh guitars, remember guitars, old footage of guitars, Bert Weedon playing guitar, first guitar I ever had was a ukulele, well the first guitar I ever had was a Fender Stratocaster, yeah well I've never even picked up a guitar and I'm presenting the programme, ooh look that one's got knobs on, wonder what they do... It was a 90-second introductory montage stretched to a quarter of an hour (or maybe it just felt that long). Then there was some history, which was good - but somehow even that managed to be simultaneously rushed and boring. Then Mrs Radish fell asleep and I thought, am I enjoying this enough to watch it on my own? And I decided I wasn't.

Django, though. Sorry to miss that bit.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:51 PM

You missed a treat. The Django was great. That's why I resent the rubbish...we could have had more time(and money) for Django....Eddie Lang...Robert Johnson....Julian Bream....Bert Jansch....Jeff Beck...Les Paul...Dave Laibmann..fill in whoever you like(we'll doubtless get some of these in times to come, but I would just like as much guitar as possible).

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:01 AM

What I'm NOT looking forward to in the next programme - because I've seen them over and over again - are the usual supects: Pete Townsend bashing his Strat on the club floor, Jimi Hendrix setting fire to his Strat, blah, blah. We had a quick preview of these cliches in programme 1 (and yes, I know they're "classic" bits). Like the first programme, I shall video the next one and fast forward through the boring bits. The Django clip was great, for example - but it's been on YouTube, in full, for years.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:51 AM

In a gross and materialistic world - the guitar is a voice of spirituality and passion that many of us hear.

I suppose having a virtuoso guitarist as an older brother would hardly endear me to guitars, much less their ubiquitousness with respect to instrumental diversity as a whole, but I'm still moved by WLD's words.

I wonder if they'll feature the playing of the late & legendary Derek Bailey? Once of the few guitarists whose playing has ever made any real sense to me, especially with regard to spirituality & passion...

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:23 AM

"I wonder if they'll feature the playing of the late & legendary Derek Bailey? Once of the few guitarists whose playing has ever made any real sense to me, especially with regard to spirituality & passion..."

Probably not. They equate spirituality and passion to the antics of drug- or alcohol- (or both-) fuelled 'superstars' bashing the guitar on the floor, or setting fire to it.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:20 AM

I havn't read all the thread yet but some comments show the old saying It's always best to criticise a programme if you haven't seen it!!!!
I, on the other hand, was apprehensive at the start but, by God, I'm glad I watched it all.
It was the first of a series and as such had to get the majority audience interested; which the bald facts of the history of the guitar would not have done, no matter how learned the presenter.
I got sidetracked by the link earlier to Jimmy Page and then by the normal process of time well spent ended up here.
Now this is guitar playing!!!

Have a shufty and get goose bumps like I did.

Andy

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,BanjoRay
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM

Did Derek Bailey ever play any music? I couldn't find any in any of the Youtube clips.
maybe I wasn't listening hard enough....
Ray

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:34 AM

Did Derek Bailey ever play any music? I couldn't find any in any of the Youtube clips.
maybe I wasn't listening hard enough....

Doubtless you weren't, Ray. Try this, and if you still can't find it I suggest a hearing aid.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:47 AM

"I wonder if they'll feature the playing of the late & legendary Derek Bailey? One of the few guitarists whose playing has ever made any real sense to me"

God, that is just SO cool ....

I wish I was cool too.

Not being cool, however, I have always reckoned Derek Bailey to be a bit of a wanker, and the guitarists who make sense to me are Leo Kottke, Martin Simpson, Doyle Dykes, Tony McManus, Blind Blake and Roy Buchanan.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 09:03 AM

Why the puerile hostility, Murray? Open your ears to the beauty of the man and his music. Nothing to do with being cool; like Roy Buchanan, Bailey was an unassuming master of his instrument...

Will they feature Roy Buchanan too I wonder? If not - The Messiah Will Come Again

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 09:21 AM

IB, tbh, I don't and never will get Bailey's "music" , but for you to say that Bailey was one of the "few guitarists whose playing ever made any real sense to you " is SUCH an elitist statement, implying a moral superiority over plebs like me who just like a good tune.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 09:31 AM

I've dipped into Derek Bailey's music, on and off, for many years and - try as I may - I can't say it moves me with any spirituality and passion. Perhaps he unconsciously - and ironically, considering he was trying so hard to break the conventional mould - moved himself into a musical dead end. I don't say that he isn't spiritualised and passionate when he's making his "non-idiomatic" (his phrase) music, just that it doesn't do it for me. If I want spirituality and passion, then just a few simple notes from Richard Thompson will do that for me.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:12 AM

I make a simple statement of personal taste and I'm accused of elitism? Much of my early musical education came care of my older brother who was passionate about the guitar - I got everything from Martin Carthy, Nic Jones, Micky Jones, Derek Bailey, Sonny Sharrock, Hans Reichel, Fred Frith, Daevid Allen, Robert Frip, Frank Zappa, Roy Buchanan, etc. all of whom I dearly love to this day but I still find the essence of the thing in Bailey's playing. As a young teenager I used to sit enchanted by Derek Bailey during Company Week at The Roundhouse; no sense of any elitism or pretension, just the pure beauty of sound and the craft of musicianship. Moral superiority? Wind in your neck, man!

Never did get Richard Thomson though - as musical dead-ends go they don't any deader than that, but that's just me. I like my rock out there, my jazz free and my folk trad, but each to their own, and the guitar is everyman's!

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:21 AM

Each to his own, IB - each to his own. As you saw Bailey as a teenager, I've seen Thompson many times - and each time was as different, in its way, from the previous time. Sorry you don't get him but I'll think of you the next time I play "The Dimming Of The Day" - which will be on Friday night. :-)

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:31 AM

Actually, I do like RT's playing on the Bright Phoebus album - Danny Rose especially. Hope for us all, eh?

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:51 AM

IB - incidentally, what happened to the WovenWheatWhispers link on your website? Was exploring and got an error message...

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 11:23 AM

Sadly, Woven Wheat Whispers folded back in the summer - there was a thread about it here. Owing to technical problems with my old PC I haven't had access to my actual website for over a year now, so it needs a thorough updating. That said, a lot of the Woven Wheat links on the Myspace sites are still in place too, so I really must get it sorted...

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:11 PM

Never heard of this bloke. You can't argue with a following like that Murray. Thousands and thousands of people seem to watch him.

I don't really get avant gard jazz. I kind of disagree though IB - music like this, either its cool - or its nothing.

When so many people listen respectfully, I think the greatest probablity is, that there substance lurking beneath.

I would have been more interested listening to what he had to say for himself than Alan Yentob's collage of 'ten thousand nearly interesting facts about the guitar you will always be totally indifferent to'.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:14 PM

I dropped my old piano down the stairs today and thought immediately of Derek Bailey......
What a load of pretentious TOSH. A waste of what might be a good guitar and certainly space on You tube.

Each to his own I know but I thought these threads were about music!!

Off to the Folk Club later, perhaps to wail a trad song at the ever patient members.

Andy (Fingers firmly in both ears while Derek Bailey is around.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: BanjoRay
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:49 PM

Doubtless you weren't, Ray. Try this, and if you still can't find it I suggest a hearing aid.
I don't think I need a hearing aid. I need something that converts a mishmash of unrelated notes into music. Sorry IB but I'm afraid our tastes differ considerably.
Ray

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:32 PM

To get back to one musician that was in the programme and shown making beautiful instruments, I refer here to Wayne Henderson, it's a pity that Yentob only showed him as a picker backing the vocals of his friend Herb Key. Apart from being a superb luthier Wayne does some amazing picking and I am sure would have pleased much of the audience with his amazing musical ability. There are a number of clips of him on you tube. On the strength of Yentob's first programme I think an hour watching various pickers on you tube must be far more rewarding provided you know who to look for and avoid jokers like Bailey.

Is anyone looking forward to the upcoming programmes on Bluegrass mentioned a month or so back? No I thought not. Bring back Anthony Wall, someone who does know real music.

Hoot

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:19 PM

IB, I really don't want to get into a long altercation about this, but it wasn't your championing of Derek Bailey per se that made my hackles rise, it was your statement that he was "one of the FEW guitarists" whose playing made any real sense to you.

I am literally unable to count the number of guitarists I have heard whose playing makes real sense to me, but it must run into three figures, easily, and trust me, I am not easily, if ever, fooled by guitar players, I can spot a poser and a charlatan at 100 paces.

But you have seen only a FEW guitarists whose playing made real sense to you (among them Derek Bailey, ffs ) so do forgive me if I think that you are being just a tad elitist.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

But he didn't say that Bailey was one of the few guitarists whose playing made real sense. He said that Bailey was one of the few guitarists whose playing made real sense to him.
That's entirely a personal opinion. In other words, his playing is among the few that truly touches IB, rather than just being easy on the ear. What's wrong with that?

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:57 PM

"easy on the ear" ???

I resemble that remark.

None of the guitarists I named above are "easy on the ear", in fact there are times when Martin Simpson can be bloody difficult on the ear ...

I think we need to know who the " few " are, so that we can put this discussion to bed.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:06 PM

I think we need to know who the "few" are, so that we can put this discussion to bed.

What a stupid thing to say. Sean mentioned numerous players. I personally dislike "free jazz" but if Sean enjoys it, then good luck to him.

Ed

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:13 PM

hang about, you can't have "numerous" players who make a lot of sense, and at the same time have "a few" players who make a lot of sense.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM

Totally agree, Murray. It's not that important though, is it?

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:38 PM

in the great scheme of things, not important in the slightest, Ed

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:05 PM

I don't know who Sean's few are, I've never met him, but the point is that they are HIS few. I have my own, you have yours.
What I meant by easy on the ear was ones that you have no problem listening to, but are nothing special to you.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:47 PM

I made a list above who the few might be - Martin Carthy, Nic Jones, Micky Jones, Derek Bailey, Sonny Sharrock, Hans Reichel, Fred Frith, Daevid Allen, Robert Frip, Frank Zappa, Roy Buchanan. I like Phil Miller too, and Bernard Sumner's playing in Joy Division is sublime. My point was, as a sort of non-muso who never did get guitars, Derek Bailey's playing makes the most sense to me.

But anything - ANYTHING - even unto having my balls slowly crushed in the jaws of a vice whilst having my feet sawn off by evil pirates - than having to endure that which Miskin Man linked to above at 7.20am. You were being ironic, right?

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 03:36 AM

There's a vice in the post!

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 07:40 AM

Cheers, MM!

Actually, as a result of this discussion I was moved just this very morning to unearth my antique Hofner Congress (fretless since 1977) with a view to figuring out a way of accompanying traditional balladry that was more Derek Bailey than Martin Carthy. I was so pleased with the results I put it up on my Myspace page:

http://www.myspace.com/sedayne : The Wife of Ushers Well - first song on the player.

I think the results sound more Harry Partch (who he? see here) than Derek Bailey though, fixing the Shruti Box drone to the Tibetan Singing Bowl (which I'm using as a steel on the strings to set off some truly filthy resonances), and intoning the ballad to an essentially improvised modality. So some level of blues, or even Beefheart, in there too....

I don't expect this to be your cup of tea, but you mentioned wailing trad songs in your local folk club and I'm thinking maybe I should try something a little different tonight at The Steamer...

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:51 AM

I really enjoyed the Jimmy Page clip.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:41 PM

From: weelittledrummer - PM
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:00 PM

"[...] for untold thousands of us throughout England, and millions worldwide, the guitar is like the true cross used to be."

Steady on, weelittledrummer! I love playing the guitar, but it's just one of many wonderful instruments. I like those big, upright guitars with all the open strings and the pedals that you pick with both hands.

Since I was stupid enough to leave a place where I had a piano and a very good electric guitar, all I've had to play has been my classical guitar and harmonicas and a penny-whistle I bought recently. With the best will in the world, I don't find the harmonica, even the chromatic one, to be as versatile. Not that I'd rather have an electric guitar than a classical one, but my electric guitar is a much better instrument. In fact, I don't know if I'd buy an electric guitar today, unless I could just go hog wild and buy all the instruments I want (and I want them all).

I'm lucky to have an instrument at all and it has meant a lot to me to be able to play, especially during some difficult years. I would say that it was music, rather than the guitar, that's so important, but perhaps that's splitting hairs. I think music is one of the things that give meaning to life, along with literature and art. Is that close to what you meant?

What I find frustrating about the guitar is the limited range. What I'd really like is a set of guitars in different sizes, or perhaps a bass and mandolin, or a 13-course Baroque lute. The best thing of all would probably be other people to play with.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

where are you were there are no other people. I admit folk music without any actual folk must be a bit of a facer.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM

There are people here; there are even musicians. I gave up looking for people to play with a few years ago. At a time when I was particularly interested in French chansons, I posted a notice looking for people to accompany. Well, my name happens to be a man's name in English but a woman's in French, and a couple of women called and were somewhat taken aback (and not pleased) to find out I was a man.

Another thing that happened is when I met a couple of people, they asked to copy some of my sheet music and I allowed them to do it (something I don't do anymore) and I never heard from them again.

A couple of people that I played music with occasionally have married and had children and one of them moved away.

Eventually, I just stopped looking for people to play with. For a long time, I haven't had the money to go to clubs, even if I had the desire to.

For a very long time, my playing ability lagged behind my knowledge about music. It's been catching up in recent years. Playing in bands in school past me by. I just plain wasn't good enough at the time.

At present, I have few social contacts, let alone contacts with other musicians who like the same kinds of music.

My goal at the moment is to somehow scrape together the equipment I'd need to film myself and put up a video on YouTube, rather than trying to find other people to play with.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:46 PM

eeelittledrummer wrote:
"I admit folk music without any actual folk must be a bit of a facer."

Actually, I'm interested in lots of other kinds of music, not just folk music. I rather suspect that the audience for the kind of folk music I'm most interested in is fairly small, anyway.   I must admit that I really don't like a-capella singing and many genuine folk songs were, of course, unaccompanied, at least when they were collected.

There are few things that can make me fly across the room faster to switch off the radio than a-capella singing. There may be exceptions, but I can't think of any off-hand. I could imagine enjoying Mahalia Jackson singing a-capella.

The kind of folk music I'm really interested in is that which has been collected, either on paper or as recordings. A lot of this is, admittedly, not very entertaining, and one couldn't go and perform it at a club or a festival (or anywhere else). It is (sometimes) "the real thing", however. I couldn't perform most of it anyway, because I don't have the voice for it, and most genuine folk music is in dialect and it always sounds a bit silly to sing in a dialect not one's own.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 05:05 PM

But how do you ever hear "the real thing" if you switch off every time you hear unaccompanied singing?

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:45 AM

The a-capella singing on the radio usually isn't traditional music (folk or otherwise). It also depends on why I'm listening. Some music is more demanding to listening to and I don't always feel like it. I'm not knocking unaccompanied singing; it's just not a style of music I usually like very much, so if I just want to be entertained or am listening with half an ear, I will probably switch it off.

I did switch someone off only the other day. I could happily do without long, drawn-out, overly-emotional, unaccompanied renditions of "Amazingrace" forever. Other people might love them; that's what makes ball games.

Actually, I do sometimes like a-capella singing with multiple parts, which has become popular again. I never much cared for choral music, but I always liked some, like Guilliaume Dufay. Now I've started to like more of it. Tastes change with time. It would be boring if they didn't.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:53 AM

I wrote:
"The a-capella singing on the radio usually isn't traditional music (folk or otherwise)."

Well, they might be traditional songs, but sung by professional singers. Not that this sort of music gets much airplay, nowadays.

It's a difficult question, Pip Radish. Sometimes it can be very moving, so I should have put what I said more carefully. I would certainly never perform a song unaccompanied, but then I don't have the voice for it. When they were collected, the collectors (one hopes) were looking for authenticity rather than entertainment. I suppose it comes down to what it means to be "interested" as opposed to "entertained". I think that's one of those questions that lead to the ultimate question underlying all life, as Ted Greene put it.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 04:06 AM

Oh dear! You certainly seem to have had your share of problems!

I do understand. Perhaps because in my way I have encountered all of them in a long (some would say too long!) career.

The only advice I can give you is this:-

You must develop a little more sang froid about the folk scene. It is full of people opining - this isn't folk music and that isn't folk music. And many of them are nice people, but God wasn't kind to them at their creation and he factored in a little component of their personality, which is really quite full of shit.

You must lose your cherry and become a bit of 'no never mind slag' when it comes to performing. The main thing about performance is that if it is good and confident - it has a fair chance of success. And that confidence and competence only comes with experience.

It doesn't cost a lot to go open mikes - most are free to get in - and you can by a bottle of abbey well and slip off to the toilets and fill it up - or even ask straight out for a pint of water over the bar and get refilled.

If you don't set your stall out - you won't find out if there are kindred spirits, and I'm telling you that there are. And the great beauty of the folk music scene in England is its diversity. Not amongst the professionals - but there amongst the actual folk themselves, it is a real global village.   I'm willing to be that there are people in your town that are interested in playing similar music to yourself, Piers.

the reason I know is that that i was into contemporary folk music as a kid. My family moved down to the Exmouth area - and down there the whole scene revolved around The Journeymen who had residence at the Jolly porter in Exeter. they had SO many disciples for traditional singing. I was fifteen to eighteeen and felt too intimidated and self conscious to get up and sing my songs.

So I never found out that sitting also in the sudience were Paul Downes and Phil Beer, Colin Wilson, Steve Knightley and it was only really when we were all much older and already professional musicians living in different parts of the country we had all been sitting there not knowing about the presence of each other.

Sheet music - tell me about it. I have one friend whom I press my latest cds and and sheet music on when I am feeling very drunken, expansive and generous. I sometimes go and visit my own property at his house. he has long since convinced himself that he bought them. Once he gave me back a dog eared book that he said he had just 'come across when he was sorting out' that i had given up asking him urgently for about three years previously.

At least nowadays with the internet you can get much music without paying anything. In those days you sometimes had to buy a whole book for just one song or set of lyrics you were interested in.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:29 AM

Thank you for your answer, weelittledrummer.

weelittledrummer wrote:

"Oh dear! You certainly seem to have had your share of problems!"

Yes, I have, including some I don't to want to write about on a message board, though I am well aware that there are many people with worse problems.

"You must develop a little more sang froid about the folk scene. It is full of people opining - this isn't folk music and that isn't folk music."

I know what you mean. I have a scholarly interest in folk music, and definitions are important from that point of view, but otherwise, who cares? As long as they don't call it "late for dinner".

It's a little different here in Germany, in particular people's attitudes to their own traditional music.

Much of my free time is filled with sending out job applications, something I've done more than enough of, but if I can ever stop doing that, I might try to find people to play with, perform at an open-mike night, or something like that. What I'd really like to do, though, is to use music (including folk music) in (short) animated films. Not that I'd mind making long ones, but animation is extremely time-consuming and expensive. I know there's no substitute for the experience of performing in front of other people.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:31 AM

You must develop a little more sang froid about the folk scene. It is full of people opining - this isn't folk music and that isn't folk music.

Really? I've never met one. Most evenings at my local folk club you'll be lucky to hear even one traditional song from these islands.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:50 PM

well believe it or not Pip - there are people who aren't actually sold on the idea that 'traditional' is the folk music of these islands.

Just goes to show. Intolerance is a many edged sword.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:31 PM

there are people who aren't actually sold on the idea that 'traditional' is the folk music of these islands.

I know - that's my point. There are lots of people who don't believe that 'folk' equals 'traditional', and (in my experience) those people suffer no intolerance whatsoever. In fact, in my experience some of the people running folk clubs and singarounds are the most open-minded of all. I've never met the folk police; I don't believe they exist.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:29 PM

Lots more guitar on BBC4 tonight. In particular, a documentary on Julian Bream at 9PM. For my money, a much more enjoyable musician than John Williams who made it on to the Yentob documentary(which is also being repeated tonight, after the Bream prog)

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:05 PM

... I've never met the folk police; I don't believe they exist....

Oh yes they do, it's just that they operate undercover most of the time.

thanks greg, for pulling this thread back to guitar.

let's hope it stays on course from here on in ...

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:50 PM

they operate undercover most of the time

Maybe so, but all I've been able to see is clubs and singarounds where nobody and nothing is disapproved of or treated with intolerance, and the folk umbrella can shelter pretty much anyone who wants to come in under it.

Anyway, Al didn't say "there are people out there who hold rigid ideas about what constitutes folk in the privacy of their own heads"; he said the scene's full of people "opining - this isn't folk music and that isn't folk music". To which I can only say, in my experience, no it isn't.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:46 PM

Well if nobody's ever disapproved of you - you're not trying hard enough!

Almost from day one of my career as a player I can recall club organisers getting a hard time for booking me. I can recall dj's getting abusive phone calls for putting my stuff amongst the jewels of the folk revival.

Basically that's why I buggered off and did other stuff - rather than hanging about to endure a life of rejection on the folkscene. That's what I'd advise any young musician to do. As the Incredible String Band said, 'if you let the pigs decide it - they will put you in the sty'. Don't let the Lilliputians tie you down.

Moreover, I think that's why the folk revival stalled. They kicked out all the people of talent and they clung on to the conformists. You can give these people all the BBC2 sessions in the world - they will still not be able to come up with a memorable piece of music that impacts in the way Street of London, Blowing in the Wind or All Around My Hat did.

Folk music - that which is adopted by and captured the imagination of the folk.

And really that's why this series looks like being a load of cack. The salient point about the guitar is not that a few smart arses have learned a few twiddly bits that defeat the rest of us. Rather it is; that it has offered a road to personal expression in a world that generally, particularly and routinely standardises us and insults our intelligences and sensibilities.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:29 AM

I guess the folk scene has changed since you buggered off! Look on the Music Well billboard or listen to Thank Goodness it's Folk - it isn't wall-to-wall Young Diddley Musician Of The Year, far from it.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 05:55 AM

ONly seen part one
Thought it interesting how the guitar spread and some of the historic detail amusing.
Gonna read rest of thread now to see how it ended in partial acrimony.
LOL

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 06:14 AM

Hmmmmmm same old things eh?
I thought the Jullian |Bream prog was ok but was it a repeat?
I too prefer his playing to JW but as they are both brilliant I dont suppose either will lose any hair over that.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 06:31 AM

One major difference between Bream and Williams (perhaps) is that Bream also played jazz as well as classical and was a keen Django fan. Williams is a superb sight-reader - someone once said that you could splatter ink blobs on a paper and Williams would read it off - but he has admitted quite openly that he can't improvise. Whether this difference affects their ability in the classical arena, I can't say. I like 'em both personally.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 11:31 AM

From: weelittledrummer - PM
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:46 PM

"Moreover, I think that's why the folk revival stalled. They kicked out all the people of talent and they clung on to the conformists. You can give these people all the BBC2 sessions in the world - they will still not be able to come up with a memorable piece of music that impacts in the way Street of London, Blowing in the Wind or All Around My Hat did."

I agree with you in general, but I think "the folk revival", for lack of a better term, stalled for other reasons. One thing that really gets up my nose is when one says "I play folksongs" and the response is "Oh, Bob Dylan". No, not blooming Bob Dylan!

So-called folk music is just a category of popular music and it always was. In fact, I'm pretty sure that some folk songs and ballads derive from courtly songs, i.e., so-called "serious music". On the other hand, many of these probably derive from songs sung among "the folk", whoever they were. The closer one looks at it, the less sense these distinctions make.

It is also absurd to associate folk music particularly with the guitar. When these songs were really widespread among the folk (of course, most collecting only started when it was beginning to disappear), the guitar was not the typical instrument for playing folk music in most places. Of course, I'm over-simplifying a very complicated subject.

Of course, I speak as a guitar player and I will sing any song I choose with guitar accompaniment, whether it's authentic or not.

I don't get out much, so I don't know whether the folk scene is full of people opining about what folk is or not. However, I think much ink has been spilt on this subject, not least on Mudcat, and I'd be rather surprised if people didn't talk about it, too. After all, there's no one who can give an ultimate answer to what is folk and what's not*, so people can keep arguing about it forever and never come to a conclusion.

* Except me of course.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 04:49 AM

A definite improvement on episode one I thought, and certainly more enjoyable in terms of music with some choice vintage Americana making the whole thing a good deal more real somehow. Reconstructions of medieval citterns are all very well, but seeing the very first ever electric guitar was something else altogether; likewise that old red strat as used by Hank - the true cross indeed (or maybe that honour should go to Hendrix's charred axe? Gave me a bit of a chill that did). BB King, Scotty Moore, Les Paul - amazing to see these legends still alive let alone still playing; I hearby add them to my above list. I'll be watching this one again Here.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:16 AM

"A definite improvement on episode one".

I'd have said a vast improvement on episode 1. At any rate, what I saw of it was. I'd vowed never to let it enter my living room again, but while I was changing channels a clip of BB King came up. I've gotta see this bit, I thought and found I was watching a well crafted bit of television. Good meaningful contributions from the interviewees, sensible questions and no damned gimmicks. My only remaining quibbles lay with the use of a clip from Spinal Tap as though it were a piece of authentic documentary, and the fact that it appears to be focused solely on the guitar as a rock instrument. Perhaps one day the BBC will make a series telling us of its use in other genres.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:39 AM

I thought it avoided most of the same old clips.
Well the ones I have seen anyway
Enjoyed the show again

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Zen
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:44 AM

I enjoyed both so far but programme two was definitely better.

Zen

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,rone
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:06 PM

great to see Mr guitar Bert Weedon on tv there are a lot of great guitar players out there but to me Bert is the daddy of the guitar rock on Bert.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:05 PM

Any BBC guitar series without including Martin Taylor is bogus.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,cookie
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:36 AM

Well, no, because it was a series about the guitar, not guitarists.

Martin Taylor is arguably the best exponent of the particular genre he plays, but though he has made technical and musical advances in that genre, it is still at heart the music of Barney Kessel and Joe Pass. He hasn't changed the instrument or the way it is used. If you're looking for glaring omissions, then how about the man whose face appeared fleetingly as the programme moved towards it closing credits - Davy Graham, who did revolutionise and expand the capabilities of the instrument?

Cookie