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BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected-2008
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Subject: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Genie Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:28 PM As they say, "only in America!" Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens has been convicted on felony corruption charges. Still, not only is he still allowed to stay in the race for the US Senate but he may well win (those Alaskans are all about "reform" of government, don't ya know). So in many US states you can basically never vote again if you've ever been convicted of a felony, but in all US states you can run for the US Senate and, if elected, serve despite such a conviction. Sure. That's only reasonable. -------- Stevens Found Guilty in Corruption Case By MATT APUZZO and JESSE J. HOLLAND, AP 10-27-08 filed under: CRIME NEWS, POLITICAL NEWS WASHINGTON (Oct. 27) - Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens was convicted of seven corruption charges Monday in a trial that tainted the 40-year Senate career of Alaska's political patriarch. The verdict, coming just days before Election Day, adds further uncertainty to a closely watched Senate race. Democrats hope to seize the once reliably Republican seat as part of their bid for a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate. Stevens, 84, was convicted of all seven charges he faced of lying about free home renovations and other gifts he received from a wealthy oil contractor. Jurors began deliberating Wednesday at noon. Stevens faces up to five years in prison on each count when he is sentenced Jan. 26, but under federal sentencing guidelines, he is likely to receive much less prison time, if any. The monthlong trial revealed that employees for oil services company VECO Corp. transformed the senator's modest mountain cabin into a modern, two-story home with wraparound porches, a sauna and a wine cellar. Stevens never paid for VECO's work. The Senate's longest-serving Republican, Stevens said he had no idea he was getting freebies. He said he paid $160,000 for the project and said he believed that covered everything. Stevens asked for an unusually speedy trial, hoping he'd be exonerated in time to return to Alaska and win re-election. He kept his campaign going and gave no indication that he had a contingency plan in case of conviction. Despite being a convicted felon, he is not required to drop out of the race or resign from the Senate. If he wins re-election, he can continue to hold his seat because there is no rule barring felons from serving in Congress. The Senate could vote to expel Stevens on a two-thirds vote. "Put this down: That will never happen — ever, OK?" Stevens said in the weeks leading up to his trial. "I am not stepping down. I'm going to run through and I'm going to win this election. Democrats, who are hoping to capture a filibuster-proof Senate majority, have jumped at the chance to seize the once reliably Republican seat. They have invested heavily in the race, running television advertisements starring fictional FBI agents and featuring excerpts from wiretaps. Stevens' conviction hinged on the testimony of Bill Allen, the senator's longtime drinking and fishing buddy. Allen, the founder of VECO, testified that he never billed his friend for the work on the house and that Stevens knew he was getting a deal. Stevens spent three days on the witness stand, vehemently denying that allegation. He said his wife, Catherine, paid every bill they received. Living in Washington, thousands of miles away, made it impossible to monitor the project every day. Stevens relied on Allen to oversee the renovations, he said, and his friend deceived him by not forwarding all the bills. Stevens is a legendary figure in Alaska, where he has wielded political influence since before statehood. His knack for steering billions of dollars in federal money to his home state has drawn praise from his constituents and consternation from budget hawks. =========== Oh, and he probably won't do jail time. But if he'd possessed a little too much pot or sold an once of it, he'd probably be doing hard time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: kendall Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:41 PM Years ago a mayor of Boston was reelected while he was in jail! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:42 PM Hopefully this will boost Sarah Palin way up in the polls. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:43 PM She has some hearings she still has to attend regarding her behavior in state office. Maybe he can make room for her in the paddy wagon. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:48 PM No, she didn't do anything wrong, so when she is exhonorated, she can claim to being in on the plot to bag Stevens. That ought to put her over the top, even in Vermont. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: artbrooks Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM Funny - Stevens can be reelected, but he can't vote for himself! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: PoppaGator Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:00 PM And let's not forget Marion Berry, crackhead mayor of Washington DC! The congressional representative for my district, William Jefferson, is under federal indictment after $100,000 in marked bills was found in the freezer compartment of his refrigerator at home. He is very likely to be reelected next week. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM Au contraire. She did do wrong. That was the finding. She just SAYS she didn't do anything wrong, she's ignoring the finding. That's the difference, Rig, you have to look at who's telling the story. She is an unreliable narrator (to say the least!). SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Bill D Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:23 PM She was judged unethical, not technically 'illegal'. She can't be jailed for being sneaky, foolish & mean...but that's what the panel found. Stevens, on the other hand, WAS convicted of something which could lead to jail time...he will no doubt appeal. *IF* he is re-elected, the Senate has the option of tossing him out for 'conduct unbecoming', or whatever they call it. The race between him and the mayor of Anchorage is already tight....the betting is that this conviction will cost him reelection. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:29 PM "She is an unreliable narrator (to say the least!)." By that you mean she's a politician! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Bill D Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM Not a very good politician.... she can't even keep her OWN party happy with her deviations from the script. Speculation is, she is 'planning ahead'. We shall see....should be entertaining if she tries again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:06 PM Personally, I think she'll end up hosting her own talk show like Mike Huckabee did. There's a lot more money in it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Genie Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM "The congressional representative for my district, William Jefferson, is under federal indictment after $100,000 in marked bills was found in the freezer compartment of his refrigerator at home. He is very likely to be reelected next week." Not quite the same thing as being reelected after being CONVICTED of a felony. Oh, and Sarah Palin was found to have violated ethics LAW -- not because she fired someone (which she can legally do without cause) but for having PRESSURED other state officials to help her carry out a personal agenda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:46 PM "Oh, and Sarah Palin was found to have violated ethics LAW..." I looked it up. It's not over yet. It has to be reviewed by the personnel board. Her political enemies tried to make it stick, but it probably won't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:01 PM Speculation is, she is 'planning ahead'. Let's see, here's a scenario: Suppose Obama is elected President, but Stevens is reelected despite the conviction, and takes office. Say that the Senate does NOT expel him. Stevens then, ("to spend more time with his family", or "for health reasons")resigns. That Senate seat is now empty, right? A successor must be appointed to fill out the term, right? So just guess who makes the appointment? The Governor of the State of Alaska! (I'm assuming Alaska law is like that of most other states.) What's more, the Governor of the State of Alaska (remember her?) can appoint herself to the Senate vacancy (yes, it's happened), and then I believe in most states the vacating Governor has the power to appoint a new governor in her own place! She could WELL be "planning ahead"! Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: artbrooks Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:12 PM There goes my supper, Dave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Ebbie Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:16 PM Like Bill D said, the Senate race in Alaska was already a tight one- Mark Begich is a popular man. (FWIW, he is the son of Nick Begich who disappeared with Hale Boggs many years ago when their small plane presumably crashed. The plane has never been found. He is also brother to Tom Begich, a musician who comes to the Alaska Folk Festival from time to time.) I think the chance of Stevens getting re-elected ranges from non-existent to nil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Bill D Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:26 PM http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/04/todays-polls-alaska.html says Begich is at 53% (also says Al Franken is ahead in Minnesota!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Bobert Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:32 PM Hey, P-Gator, Don't be meessin' with mah man, Marion "I-don't-do-no-druzz" Barry... He's an institution 'round these parts and, fir the record, "The bitch did set him up"... But really, folks, this ain't a good thing... It's sad to see anyone this man's age maybe havin' to maybe spend his last days in jail... I mean, he didn't kill anyone... He didn't try to steal $6B like Halliburton tried to do... He didn't molest a child... And as far as being a crook, Dick Cheney makes him look like a Boy Scout... Right??? So, I hope that they just make him pay back the money, give him 40 hours of community service for a couple years and call it a day... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:41 PM How much of it is just Stevens' political enemies getting even? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Ebbie Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:45 PM I said something of the sort to a friend the other day, Bobert, and added that it is kind of a pity that his career has to end this way and she said, Oh, come on. He knew what he was doing, and he knew the risks he was taking. From the very onset: What was a lobbyist doing performing those favors for him? His sense of entitlement got in his way big time. My friend is a Republican. Disillusioned these days, true, and a cross-over vote but Republican for a' that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Bobert Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:58 PM Well, I think this might provied an great opportunity for the Dems... Currently we have over 3,000,000 people locked up for non-violent crimes... This alone is costing US a ton on money that could be better spent on programs that Bush cut, like "MidNight Basketball" where the communtiy centers used to be open late at night when kids are now out getting in trouble... At some point in time we need to reverse this 30 year experiement in locking up folks for victimless crimes... Okay, the taxpayers wer victims with Stevens but he outta have to pay restitution and sdo community service... Period... BTW, it does not surprise be that yer Repub friend wanted him to do time... Doing time is the Republican way... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Ebbie Date: 27 Oct 08 - 08:10 PM Oh ho! Like German friends have told me in other matters: She is a good Republican. I agree that if Ted Stevens were ordered to travel around in Alaska telling his story to village youth and warning them that hubris is an unreliable companion in one's career, that would be a good thing. But it's not going to happen. My guess, however, is that Stevens will not serve a day inside. He is 84 years old; most likely he will be slapped on the wrist and told to go and sin no more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Bobert Date: 27 Oct 08 - 08:40 PM Yeh, Eb, yer probably right... But then there's this chance that he will be re-elected and get the slap on the wrist and go back to Washington and keep on doin' what he's been doin'... Which, of course, is bringin' home the bacon... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Charley Noble Date: 27 Oct 08 - 09:25 PM Dave- You do deserve credit for thinking through this one. Sen. Pallin! How horrid! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Oct 08 - 09:56 PM Maybe one of the really inexplicable problems I have with it is this: Ted Stevens could have sold his influence for tens of millions. Why would he sell out for three-hundred-grand? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Bill D Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:40 PM Whatever... I suspect that Strom Thurmond's senate records are safe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Ebbie Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:57 PM Rig, that is one of the anomalies of Alaska politics. It's kind of embarrassing. Seems like if you're going to be crooked you might as well as make it worth your while. Might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, as they say. Instead, we have a passel of political varmints either already in jail or awaiting trial and most of the charges are paltry amounts. Even just hundreds of dollars. And yet, we have seen Vic Kohring on FBI videotape eagerly holding out his hand to VECO's Bill Allen for the greenbacks. As I said, it's embarrassing! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Genie Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:58 PM Bobert, your suggested sentence for Stevens would be reasonable and fair -- IF we had similarly proportional sentences for teenagers who shoplift cigarettes, people who use cocaine or marijuana (recreationally or otherwise), 19 year-olds who have sex with 17-year-old paramours, etc. : ) I'd actually like to see more of the high and mighty do prison time when they're convicted of felonies. Lengthy sentences should be reserved for criminals who are serious threats to the community (e.g., Charles Keating, Ken Lay, violent offenders, etc.), but it's not fair for the rich and powerful to just get fined or kicked out of office while others spend time behind bars for lesser affronts to society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: kendall Date: 28 Oct 08 - 02:59 AM They say he is only the 4th Senator to be so charged in all these years? I would have thought the number would be much higher. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Rapparee Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM A friend of mine in Homer (AK) isn't sure that he won't be reelected. He's done a LOT for Alaska. She thinks it will be a close race. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Bill D Date: 28 Oct 08 - 02:04 PM http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/ now projects Begich win 'likely', instead of leaning. (down the right side of page a bit.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Greg F. Date: 29 Oct 08 - 09:56 AM Kinda like the Nixon campaign of old: "Vote For The Crook". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: GUEST,Anchorage native Brittany Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:35 AM Ted Stevens was innocent! The only reason falsified charges were brought against him was because the Democrats were threatened and simply wanted more control. Similiar to the ridiculous investigation against Palin that she was then cleared! Ted Stevens has done so many great things for Alaska and we believe in him, which is why he'll be re-elected!! I am proud of Stevens-even our airport is named after him! He is great for Alaska!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Alice Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:40 AM Calm down, Brittany, take a deep breath. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Sawzaw Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:48 AM It would be a bad thing if a crook like Stevens was re elected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:46 PM Well, so far, Stevens is leading: These numbers are from the New York Times, 12:46 PM Eastern Time, Wednesday, with 99% of precincts reporting.
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Ebbie Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM Amazing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Charley Noble Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:04 PM Well, that means even if his conviction is upheld Gov. Palin gets to appoint his replacement. Ugh! Maybe she'll appoint her husband or herself (can she do that?) Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Ebbie Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:10 PM Sure. Lisa Murkowski, a second-term state senator, was appointed to her U.S. Senate position by her father, outgoing governor Frank Murkowski. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Ebbie Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:18 PM Correction: outgoing U.S. Senator, incoming Governor, Frank Murkowski |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM Frankly, I hope Stevens holds on to win it. It'll add a little color to the whole process. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: PoppaGator Date: 05 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM From the Boston Herald, Wednesday 11/5: "With more than 80 percent of the precincts reporting, Stevens held a 2-percentage point advantage over Democrat Begich. About 4,000 votes separated the candidates. The razor-thin margin means the Senate race might not be decided for two weeks. "Still to be counted are roughly 40,000 absentee ballots, with more expected to arrive in the mail, as well as 9,000 uncounted early votes and thousands of questioned ballots. The state Elections Division has up to 15 days after the election to tally all the remaining ballots before finalizing the count." With the number of absentee ballots equal to ten times the margin by which Stevens leads, anything can happen, and it definitely WILL take a while (and perhaps a lawsuit) before this is settled. If the Democratic challenger wins in the end, he'll serve a full term, if nothing else. If Stevens wins, he is not automatically disqualified for the Senate by his conviction, but he IS subject to being voted out by his fellow Senators. And if they kick him out, it will indeed be up to Governor Palin to appoint the replacement to finish out his term. She will surely want to appoint herself if allowed, let her Lieutenant Governor succeed her in Juneau, move to Washington, and set forth on her career as a leader of President Obama's opposition, keeping her eye at all times on taking over the White House in 2012. Not saying she'll succeed, but she is almost certain to try. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Alaska Mike Date: 05 Nov 08 - 02:59 PM Ted will win the election. The U.S. Senate will expel him from his office in a month or two and he will eventually be sentenced to serve time in a federal prison. OR, Bush will grant him a full pardon sometime prior to his expulsion and life for Ted will continue as before. If Ted is expelled, Sarah will not be able to appoint his replacement. After Frank Murkowski appointed his daughter to fill his Senate seat, there was such an uproar in Alaska we passed a referendum requiring a special election should one of our national politicians be voluntarily or involuntarily removed from office. But by electing Ted for another term, the Republican majority here in Alaska will be able to elect another Republican if Ted does get kicked out. Strange times. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Alaska Mike Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM Sarah will not even be allowed to appoint an interim Senator until the special election. We will just not have that representation for awhile. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Rapparee Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:22 PM So basically this would be a good time to sell Alaska to the Canadians, huh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:00 PM Mike - So if I take what you are saying correctly, the run-off then will be only between Republicans, is that right. If so, that would go a long way to explain why they re-elected Stevens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Alaska Mike Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:23 PM No Rig, the election will be between both parties, but the winner will be Republican. We haven't elected a Democrat in decades. If Begich had won the general election yesterday, he would have been our Senator for at least 6 years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:25 PM I guess I was grasping for a reason the were electing Stevens, under the circumstances. In any event, it's an interesting development. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Alaska Mike Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:31 PM Ted Stevens has been our Senator for the past 40 years. He has done an enormous amount of good for our state and for many individuals. People up here have a huge amount of loyalty to him. Many of our politicians are crooks, we never let that stand in the way of putting them back in office. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM Everybody else's politicians are probably crooks too, they just hide it better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: dick greenhaus Date: 06 Nov 08 - 03:56 PM Rig- Just to point out that the investigation that found Palin guilty of ethics violation was instigated by a Republican legislature, and conducted by a Republican-dominated committee. The second investigation was performed by a group selected by Palin--obviously a less-partisan group. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: PoppaGator Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:08 PM Alaska Mike pointed out a little-known exception to the usual procedure where the governor of a state appoints the replacement when a US Senator is unavailable (for whatever reason) to serve out his/her term. That's apparently not the case in Alaska, although it is the way these things are done in most other states. Yesterday evening, after reading Mike's explanation, I was still hearing/reading national correspondants describing scenarios in which Palin could get herself into that Senate seat. One interesting theory is that she would resign first, and then have the new Governor (her current Lieutenant=Gov) appoint her to the Senate. Apparently, I'm not the only one guilty of assuming that Alaska follows the procedure manadted in other sTates. (I'm assuming that Mike is correct, since he is an Alaskan.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Bill D Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:10 PM All I have heard indicate that there is still a real chance counting absentee ballots may defeat Stevens. It sure would make thins less complicated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:25 PM Less interesting, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:36 PM I'd have thought it'd be much more fun being Governor of Alaska than giving it up to become just another Senator down in Washington. But is there any law saying you can't hold down both jobs at the same time? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:37 PM "After all", she'd say "We women are good at multi-tasking." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:14 PM That's right, and she could draw two paychecks, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Charley Noble Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:28 PM Alaska Mike- Thanks for clarifying that Palin cannot appoint a replacement for Stevens and that there would have to be a special election. Does she understand that? Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: robomatic Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:34 PM Senator Ted came right back to Alaska soon after the verdict was rendered. He then participated in some televized 'debates' and the Reps blitzed the State with ads claiming the trial was unfair if not crooked. Many Alaskans are not just loyal to Ted but to his seniority. Having one of the jurors prove to be a dingbat (ultimately not participating in the verdict) was used to buttress the "trial was unfair" argument. On election day, one of the most popular AM radio stations, KENI, had Ted on the air to promote his case. They didn't have any reporters or callers to challenge him. As of tonight, we're still awaiting the counting of the absentee, advance, and question ballots. The time consuming part of this is making sure those who filled them out and voted did not then go and vote on election day. Back in the primaries a few folks apparently tried to get away with this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Ron Davies Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:34 PM As I noted on another thread, Palin is very likely NOT to want to take over from Stevens. If she has any appeal to anybody, it's as an outsider. Much better for that to be an Alaskan governor than a Senator. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Ebbie Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:09 AM Question: Can a president pardon a convicted person before that person has received sentence? Stevens is scheduled to be sentenced in February, I believe, well after Bush is gone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Lonesome EJ Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:38 AM Ted Stevens is a porkbarreling slimeball with more "borrowed" furniture than a formal banquet at the Ninth Street Baptist Mission. The fact that it's even close says volumes, doesn't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:02 AM What did this guy Ted Stevens do? If you get into corruption charges in England, your political party tends to go through an exercise called 'withdrawing the whip' - which means that basically your party disowns you. Doesn't something similar happen in America? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: dwditty Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM Hey, we don't make this stuff up here in the States, you know! dw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:38 AM "What did this guy Ted Stevens do?" What I understand of what Stevens did was to have a contractor remodel his house and the cost was something like half a million bucks. This same contractor was engaged in oil-field activities in Alaska and he was looking for some sweetheart favors from Stevens which were granted to him. The contractor billed Stevens for about half the value of the remodel project, and Stevens paid it. He did not pay for the rest of the project, which came to something under three-hundred-thousand. The authorities made the case that the remaining value of the remodel project was a pay-off for the favors Stevens did for the contractor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:08 AM Rich guy like that - it was probably a bit like forgetting to pay your paper bill on time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Charley Noble Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:37 AM I'm still seeing stories in the papers that a special election is one option but that Palin could also appoint a replacement Senator (even herself). We may need a second opinion from our Alaskan legal friends. Anyone willing to hazard a guess how long it takes voting officials to count 40,000 absentee or provisional ballots? Would six years be an excessive guess? Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: Riginslinger Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:38 AM Well, that's what a lot of people think. And he continued to make the case that he was never invoiced for the remaining work, so he didn't know it was outstanding. The argument didn't fly in court, however, so the prosecution must have had more evidence. The part that still bothers me is, the guy was in a position to extort tens of millions, why would he sell out for three-hundred grand? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be reelected From: PoppaGator Date: 07 Nov 08 - 11:10 AM In many cases like this, the particular offense for which the prosecution is able to make a case is just the tip of the iceberg. Stevens is quite likely to have collected many times more than $300,000 in shady deals over the years, but could have covered his tracks adequately in all instances but this one. (Think about Al Capone's having been arrested and successfully prosecuted only for tax evasion.) My favorite part of this story is Stevens' explanation for the entire houseful of furniture that he received from the guy seeking favors: They weren't gifts, they were a "loan," extended for an indefintely long period of time. Yeah, right... Corrupt representatives can remain popular with their consitutents, especially when they've been in office for a long time. Congresssmen and Senators do a lot of things for citizens besides representing them when voting upon legislation: everything from supplying flags that have flown over the Capital building to arranging for appointments to the academies at West Point and Annapolis. Every individual who ever received such a service/favor over the years ~ and these are legitimate and usually inexpensive favors ~ is likely to become a very loyal voter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Bill D Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:15 PM Many politicians get re-elected because of perceived 'pork' they bring to the state. It matters little to some folks who got shafted or who was neglected because of 'their' politicians' seniority, power & cleverness: and there were few who did a better job of lugging home the pork than Stevens. (Byrd in W. Va. maybe, but Byrd 'seems' to have at least avoided breaking laws) Ted Stevens had contempt for rules and felt HE could ignore them when it was profitable & convenient....and most Alaskans knew it! They just enjoyed the perks too much to call him on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Genie Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:38 PM There seems to be some question whether Stevens's 'victory' was legitimate. Thousands of registered voters in Alaska had to vote on "provisional ballots" because their names didn't show up on the rolls when they tried to vote, and these ballots have not been looked at yet. If the sort of voter-roll purging that helped rob Al Gore of Florida's electoral votes in 2000 was done this year in Alaska, it may have disenfranchised thousands of people who were legally entitled to vote. That would also help explain the pretty big discrepancy between the polls and the official results. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:58 PM Was Ralph Nader on the ballot in Alaska too? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Deckman Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:27 PM MIKE ... soooo ... Have you written th song yet? CHEERS, Bob Nelson ... just North of Seattle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:34 PM Can anyone find a story update on the 40,000 provisional ballots? Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Alaska Mike Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:43 AM Six years ago, Alaska's junior Senator, Frank Murkowski, ran for governor and won. He subsequently appointed his daughter, Lisa Murkowski, to fill his remaining 2 years in the Senate. This was one of many things Frank did to irritate the citizens of Alaska. We then passed a new state law that the governor no longer is allowed to appoint someone to fulfill the remaining term of a national politician. So, despite what the pundits might believe, in Alaska, the governor does NOT appoint a replacement. Ted Stevens is still ahead in the vote count and his lead will probably hold. So, as I said before, the Senate will probably expel him from the Senate and we will have an election in 60-90 days to elect a replacement Senator. Mark Begich still has a chance to win the general election, but nobody up here is betting on it. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:14 AM Mike- Major media in the lower 48 now agree with you on this. Palin could run in the special election and I would hazard a guess that she will, having acquired a taste for high stakes politics. I'm not sure she'd win, given some erosion of her support base in Alaska but what do you think? How long will it take to sort through all the provisional and absentee ballots? Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:26 AM Here's some commentary by Rachel Maddows of MSNBC on the vote count in Alaska: click here for report Evidently Alaska is the only state where the polling was way off compared with the apparent election outcome. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 08 Nov 08 - 11:11 AM About the Alaska vote count being off, the ostensible numbers are way off: We're on paper as having had just over a 45% turnout when our average is over 60%. I called our local elections three times yesterday to try to get a definitive answer. However, I have been told that the number of outstanding votes is actually almost 80,000 ballots, rather than the 40thousandsomething first announced. 80,000 would bring the total votes up to over 60%. The number of registered voters in Alaska: 4975something Plus 80,000 brings the number of ballots cast to over 300thousandsomething. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:20 PM Ebbie - Does all of this work for, or against Stevens, or should it make any difference at all? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:32 PM I don't know, Rig. Since there are many more Republicans than Democrats in Alaska it is possible that they have voted to keep Stevens. However, it appalls me to think that a majority would vote to retain a convicted crook in office. That would imply a cynicism that I don't see evidence of in other matters. But as I said, Alaska is different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: pdq Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:38 PM "...it appalls me to think that a majority would vote to retain a convicted crook in office..." The trick is in the word "convicted". There are many Representatives and Senators who are far more corrupt than Ted Stevens, they just never get convicted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:44 PM Another thing, too. If a large number of people voted absentee, they might have committed before the verdict(s) were rendered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Alaska Mike Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:22 PM I voted in early October and then spent the rest of the month out in the Aleutian Islands. So my vote for Mark Begich is one of the ones that still has not been counted. But the vast majority of voters up here would never vote for anyone but a Republican. As for Sarah running for Senator, it is a possibility, but I don't think her run for VP did her any favors with Alaskans. She has quite a bit of fence mending to do up here if she ever wants to get elected to anything again. She has the wardrobe for it though. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Bill D Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:40 PM I heard the RNC had sent a lawyer to 'repo' that wardrobe....to be sure they comply with the letter of the law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Genie Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM I'm wondering how well Sarah Palin would do in 'inheriting' Uncle Ted's votes, should he resign or be expelled and should she run for his seat. From what I've read, a main reason Alaskans love them some Ted Stevens, felonies or not, is that he's exceptionally good at bringing home the bacon -- aka "pork." Alaska, with the help of Stevens, gets disproportionately more money from the US Congress than just about any other state. But Palin, along with McCain, campaigned vigorously on a platform of stopping "earmarks." If she remains true to that stance, I'd think a lot of Stevens backers would be far less enthusiastic about her. If she decides to follow in Ted's pork-bringing footsteps, she'll be vulnerable to that old "flip-flopper" label. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:14 PM Palin was quite efficient with regard to bringing home the bacon or blubber to her home town when she was mayor. But the big question is what is happening with all those thousands (40 to 80 thousand) of absentee and provisional ballots? I would think both Democrats and Republicans would be sending out their legal teams. Are they? And evidently the national media has lost interest in that incomplete election, in their hurry to close up their election shop. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Alaska Mike Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:12 PM I was wondering the same thing, Charley. Then I heard on the local news tonight that the election officials don't plan to start counting them until next Wednesday. The reason they give is that they want to be sure that no one voted more than once. I thought they could have done this by now. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:28 PM With total control of the senate still up for grabs, I wouldn't think anyone has lost interest in this race. The fact that there waiting to even count the ballots probably looks a little fishy to more people than me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:39 AM Keep in mind that in Alaska tallying the vote is both simpler and more intense than in some places. In other states ballots are counted and reported in either cities or counties then coordinated into the official statewide count. Alaska doesn't do that; in fact, although there are some boroughs (combined government over discrete but in proximity populations), Alaska has no counties. Since there are fewer voters in the whole state of Alaska than there are in many a US city- currently fewer than half a million registered voters - all of the ballots are flown to Juneau, the capital. Dozens of locked, labelled, tough-woven cloth bags are flown in and locked into an unused jail cell in the local District Court building, from which the bags are retrieved. They may have since acquired their own lockable facility- there was talk of it in the last election I worked, in which case they would no longer use the jail cell. Alaska uses almost entirely the optical-scan system; each voter has filled in the ovals opposite their choice. Those do not get counted by hand, except for a given number of precincts chosen at random, when there is a recount called for. A recount is legally required when the margin is within certain percentage points; when a candidate requests a recount, the state pays for it unless the margin was outside a certain and larger margin. Currently Alaska is required to have at least one Touch-screen unit in each precinct. There is a long paper trail that accumulates inside each machine. Anyone is allowed to use the Touch-screen but in my experience few do. I have worked elections when it was used not more than twice in one day in that precinct. Absentee and Questioned (provisional) ballots are kept separate from the accruing ballots inside the opti-scan machine, and separate from each other; in due time each absentee and questioned ballot is tallied by hand. Workers are seated around large tables while supervisors and other officials roam around behind the workers. Each worker is sworn in, by the way. By Alaska law, all votes are required to be counted within a certain time period- I believe that this year's date is November 15. Given the expected number of outstanding ballots, Alaska officials choose a start date that they are sure allows them enough time to finish by the end of the stated period. So there is nothing particularly fishy about a delayed start date. They try to delay it until every conceivable legitimate mailing is in. Every ballot envelope that is stamped on or before Election Day is accepted into the official count. There are Americans all over the world and there are areas in the world from which mail service is slow. Military packets are required to meet the same time period constraints; each ballot within the packet, however, is presumed to be within the time constraint. Now, this is Alaska. I can't speak for any other method. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:43 AM So according to Alaska Mike, they won't even start until Wednesday, I think he said. So the way things are, nothing is going to change until after Wednesday, is that right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 09 Nov 08 - 10:04 AM There won't be any announcement that soon, Rig. Ain't ya been listenin'? The start date and the date of completion are not the same thing... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 09 Nov 08 - 10:15 AM Well, I said "after Wednesday." That could be six months from now, if they wanted to take that long. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 09 Nov 08 - 10:20 AM Ebbie- Thanks for your excellent description of when and how the absentee and provisional ballots will be dealt with. After such a ballot is reviewed for eligibility, is it then optically scanned? It does seem to me that 40 to 80 thousand ballots is still a lot to process from November 12 to November 15. If there really are that many ballots outstanding, I'd be very surprised if the work is completed by that deadline. Here in Maine each ballot would be examined by a Democratic and Republican volunteer. Are there similar provisions in place in Alaska? Voting is such a basic right that Alaska should take every step to insure the validity of the process. I do think this vote count will be followed with interest. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: pdq Date: 09 Nov 08 - 12:35 PM Home remodeling and VECO Stevens home in Girdwood, Alaska May 29, 2007, the Anchorage Daily News reported that the FBI and a federal grand jury were investigating an "extensive" remodeling project at Stevens' home in Girdwood. Stevens' Alaska home was raided by the FBI and IRS on July 30, 2007. The remodeling work doubled the size of the modest home. Public records show that the house was 2,471 square feet after the remodeling and that the property was valued at $271,300 in 2003, including a $5,000 increase in land value. The remodel in 2000 was organized by Bill Allen, a founder of the VECO Corporation, an oil-field service company and has been estimated to have cost VECO and the various contractors $250,000 or more. However, the residential contractor who finished the renovation for VECO, Augie Paone, "believes the [Stevens'] remodeling could have cost, if all the work was done efficiently, around $130,000 to $150,000, close to the figure Stevens cited last year."The Stevens paid $160,000 for the renovations "and assumed that covered everything." In June, the Anchorage Daily News reported that a federal grand jury in Washington, D.C., heard evidence in May about the expansion of Stevens' Girdwood home and other matters connecting Stevens to VECO. In mid-June, FBI agents questioned several aides who work for Stevens as part of the investigation. In July, Washingtonian magazine reported that Stevens had hired "Washington's most powerful and expensive lawyer", Brendan Sullivan Jr., in response to the investigation.In 2006, during wiretapped conversations with Bill Allen, Stevens expressed worries over potential misunderstandings and legal complications arising from the sweeping federal investigations into Alaskan politics. On the witness stand, "Allen testified that VECO staff who had worked on his own house had charged 'way too much,' leaving him uncertain how much to invoice Stevens for when he had his staff work on the senator's house ... that he would be embarrassed to bill Stevens for overpriced labor on the house, and said he concealed some of the expense." {if the Stevens were charged $85/square foot for the portion of the house that was added, and $40/square for remodeling the rest, they would have paid less than the $160,000 they did pay...hard to see anything wrong here...this was a political lynching) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:24 PM pdq - What you say here is pretty much in line what I'd read in the newspapers going into the trial. The prosecution must have had some pretty convincing evidence to come up with the convictions they did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: pdq Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:44 PM Rigs...you have been involved in house remodeling and so have I. Do you see anything wrong with the $40/sq.ft. for remodeling and $85/sq.ft. for new construction? Understand that Stevens house already had full electrical service, septic system and leach field, and a working well with pump, filters, pressure tank, etc. Remeber, this work was finished by 2000. "The prosecution must have had some pretty convincing evidence to come up with the convictions they did." Or they had a judge and jury who were going to lynch Stevens no matter what the testimory said. If there are other facts, they should be out here in the public record. Verdict was rendered about two weeks before election day. This is a lynching. There are dozens of crooks in Congress and none have the track record of accomplishments that Ted Stevens does. He is regarded as the #1 citizen of the state and that put a giant bullseye on his back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 09 Nov 08 - 03:29 PM There are dozens of Representatives and Senators who have convictions (and may they be praised for keeping them) who still serve in Congress but Stevens's conviction is a felony. The original A-frame cottage was relatively modest and it wouldn't surprise me that the remodeling costs were well above $40 per square foot; $40 per square foot is a modest price for remodeling in Maine and new construction is more like $120 per square foot. I'd be shocked if it were less in an environment such as Alaska. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 09 Nov 08 - 08:12 PM And there is a good deal more activity that they're looking at than just construction. For starters, you might want to consider just what the h a lobbyist was doing working on a legislator's house in the first place. "Political hatchet job"? If you say so. If so, you may not be surprised if and when Ted's son Ben gets the same treatment. He was smart though- as soon as Bill Allen testified that VECO had also bribed Ben, Ben quit the Senate and went to commercial fishing where he still is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 09 Nov 08 - 09:09 PM Ebbie- At some level it's all in the family, and one just has to live with it. But Sen. Stevens probably has exceeded what is morally defensible. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 09 Nov 08 - 09:37 PM 100! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:05 AM This story keeps getting better and better. Last evening MSNBC was interviewing a state senator from Alaska who has been monitoring the vote count and he reported that the outstanding absentee and provisional ballots now totaled more than 91,000. The vote count will resume Wednesday. All the experts are still puzzling why the voter turnout in Alaska was so much lower than anticipated, compared with previous elections there, and why the polling was so far off. Evidently even Sen. Stevens' pollster had predicted on the eve of the election that he would lose by 6 to 8 percentage points. Could global warming have baked Alaskan brains? Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Alaska Mike Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:26 AM We're only half baked up here Charley. It's hard to even get warm during the winters. Yep, 91,000 additional votes to count. The pollsters who were so baffled are thinking that perhaps they were correct all along, its just that MANY folks (like me) who voted for the Democratic candidate voted early. They believe their polling predictions will be vindicated once these final votes are tallied. Perhaps my cynicism (thinking Alaskans would elect a convicted felon) is incorrect. I might even ice down the porter for a celebration. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:31 AM The Division of Elections in Alaska is currently in Republican hands. Because Elections is under the imprimaur of the Lieutenant Governor, whenever an election brings in a different govenor, the old director is out and the incoming one is of the same party as the new government. (Before my time, one year they actually ousted all of the Elections officials. They never did that again, I understand they had a farcical time of it. Nobody knew what they were doing.) My point, however, is that if, as it appears, the ballots have been mishandled, I imagine that it was inadvertent and that heads will roll. I have no cause to believe that there is malfeasance afoot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 11 Nov 08 - 05:00 PM Ebbie- The Division of Elections being under the control of the majority party is not that unusual. In Maine the majority party effectively elects the Secretary of State, the Treasurer, the Attorney General, and the State Auditor; the minority party votes too but most of the time their vote is not a major factor. Are public observers permitted to view the vote counting in this instance? Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:56 PM I know, Charley. I don't know how else a changeover could be done. Perhaps if Elections was not under the ulmbrella of the Lieutenant Governor - In other states, is Elections the responsiblity of the State's second in command? Yes. Offically sanctioned observers are usually present - but only a certain number of feet away - on Election Day and definitely during any vote recount. The rule of not standing too close to counters is so they don't inhibit the process. They are meant to be invisible. At times one will notice that an observer has gone to the side of an elections official and they confer in low voices. On occasion the official and observer will come over to a counter to clarify a point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:31 AM Ebbie- I imagine that the counters will have to examine each absentee ballot, make sure it is signed, and that the person has not already voted. They would also have to examine each provisional ballot and try to determine if it were a valid one. When they have validated either, then they can run the optical scan forms through the scanner for counting. It's the validation procedure which is going to slow the process down to a crawl, with 91,000 ballots to process. I will be amazed if they can finish the job by the November 15 deadline. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:38 AM I agree- they keep finding more. I don't know what the penalties are for not finishing in the mandated time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:54 AM Here, from this morning's paper: http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/111208/sta_355115253.shtml |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:26 PM It looks like the Democrats are trying to steal the election. Has ACORN made its way all the way to Alaska? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:26 AM Good god, Rig, give it a rest. This is a Republican administration and operation; the Dems have naught to do with it. Last election, when 26 voters were found to have voted twice (absentee and then in person on Election Day) was also a Republican-directed election. It is believed that those 26 voters, by the way, over-voted out of ignorance rather than malice. However, they can still be charged with a crime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: KT Date: 13 Nov 08 - 02:09 AM This just in from Begich headquarters.... "This evening the DOE is reporting that we have closed the gap between Mark and Ted Stevens and now lead by 814 votes - a 4000 swing in one day! " Only 40,000 more to count! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:27 PM KT- Thanks for the update and may there be many more happy returns. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:37 PM Wouldn't it be awful if we got stuck with another boring Democrat? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Barry Finn Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:47 PM Maybe for you Rig but the rest of the nation will be quite pleased. We, meaning the rest of US would like to see the job market improved, the educational system improved, the health care system improved, global warming & some climate control advancement, new renewed energy changes, more regulations on Wall Street & on the rest of the financial system (thank you republicans), the ending of the wars. Yes, you republicans have certinally made life really exciting over the last 8 yrs. Lets go back to boring & live a little if we can find the time & money. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:50 PM I'm not a Republican, please! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:54 PM You're not a Democrat, either. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Nov 08 - 07:07 PM Well, that's true. You'd think there'd be a party out here someplace that had some sense about it, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:40 PM Riginslinger- And I doubt if you'd be very pleased if a convicted felon were representing you as a senator. Of course I don't know very much about the Mayor of Anchorage, Begich, other than that he is a registered Democrat, and probably younger than Ted Stevens. But my interest in this race was drawn because it's the last one that will be resolved by counting all the absentee and some provisional ballots. And I was hoping that it might be a fair count. There's still another 30,000 ballots to count. Stevens may still win (but that would raise more questions than it would resolve)! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Nov 08 - 09:04 PM Still, it beats boring! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 13 Nov 08 - 09:08 PM Riginslinger- Hey, I got entertained watching paint dry! If you'd worked full time on a political campaign which failed you might appreciate that statement. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:38 AM "And I doubt if you'd be very pleased if a convicted felon were representing you as a senator." Well, maybe, it would depend on what the conviction was for. I have never worked on a politicl campaign--winning or losing--but I've been involved in a number of court cases, usually civil matters, and I've seen some strange things happen. We don't have all the Steven's testimony, of course, but there are some things that strike me as curious about this case. And it is in for appeal, after all. Which brings up another point. What would be the general public mind-set--especially in Alaska--if the Democrat ends up winning the election, and the Stevens is exhonorated on appeal? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 14 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM Rig asked: What would be the general public mind-set--especially in Alaska--if the Democrat ends up winning the election, and the Stevens is exhonorated (sic) on appeal? The result of an appeal, even if in the defendant's favor, does not (except in very rare cases) exonerate (note spelling) the defendant. The point is to decide whether there were legal, procedural errors made in the trial. If the appeals court finds such errors, 99.44% of the time the result is to remand to the trial court for retrial. Only in extreme cases would the appeal court set aside the guilty verdict in favor of "not guilty". Nothing I've read about the Stevens trial suggests to me that there might be such extreme errors. But, even supposing the appeals court goes so far as to set aside the "guilty" in favor of "not guilty", that does not exonerate Stevens. Remember that "not guilty" doesn't mean "he didn't do it"; it means that the prosecution was unable to prove the essential elements that would lead to a legal finding of guilt. In other words, "not guilty", despite popular usage, does not mean "innocent". A jury doesn't return a verdict of "innocent". The criminal law doesn't deal with innocence; it deals with whether the essential elements are proven, so that the sanctions of law may be applied. The substitution of "not guilty" for "guilty" wouldn't mean that the defendant (Stevens in this instance) is pure and unsullied under the facts of the case. It's purely a legalistic conclusion, not a moral one. That's not "exoneration". But despite all of the foregoing pedantic rant, I expect that many citizens of Alaska might be highly disgruntled. But it wouldn't change the result of the election. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:05 PM I agree, nothing that happens is going to change the result of the election. But this is an exceptional case. It went to the jury while the election was still going on. This is a Washington DC jury, some members of whom might have as one of their incentives the desire to see the Democrats gain a filibuster proof control of the Senate. If I were Stevens, I wouldn't let that issue escape the attention of the judge in the appeals court. Also, I'd reference O.J. Simpson every chance I got. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Genie Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:49 PM Rig, if Begich wins the Senatorial election, it won't necessarily be because Stevens was convicted of felonies. I understand that Begich lost the gubernatorial election to Palin by a very narrow margin a couple years ago, and that the Republican (Murkowski?) won her Senate seat by a very narrow margin as well (with some questions still lingering about the integrity of the vote count in that election). The Democrats campaigned unusually vigorously in Alaska this year, and I believe the pre-election polls and even some exit polls showed Begich ahead of Stevens. All I ask is that all legitimately cast ballots be counted -- accurately -- and that any attempt at "voter fraud" be similarly squelched. (If Mickey Mouse showed up at the polls without a valid ID and state-issued voter registration card, I hope they turned him away. If Ann Coulter voted in Alaska instead of at the poll for her actual address, I hope they kick her ballot out too. And if any dead people, vacant lots, or Starbucks cafes sent in absentee ballots, those should be thrown out too.) If Stevens wins, under those rules, the Alaska people who voted for him deserve what they get. But if Begich wins, it probably isn't because of Stevens being convicted of improper behavior. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:59 PM Okay, but if I were Stevens, and I was appealing seven felony convictions, I'd make the most out of the importance of that Senate seat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:44 PM Rigin- Even Palin doesn't defend Stevens. However, it's in her interests to see him out of the picture in terms of power. I doubt that Stevens will win on appeal but it's his right to pursue an appeal. And I hope he serves 20 years in jail for abuse of power. I understand there are still 30 or 40 thousands votes to decide on. Looks as if they are not intending to meet the November 15 deadline, if there were a deadline. Alaska appears to be quite pragmatic when it comes to following the rule of law. Charley Noble Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 15 Nov 08 - 02:40 AM Regarding the November 15 deadline, in actuality the law says "15 days after the election"- that would make the deadline November 19. There is another date after that for when everything has to be certified. It's beginnin' to look a lot like Chris'mas- Mark Begich has drawn ahead of Stevens by a thousand something. Personally, I hope Stevens is defeated, pure and simple. Losing re-election surely would be less humiliating for him than to be expelled from the Senate. The man is 84 years old, after all, and by his lights has served his country well. I"m willing to let him ride off into the sunset. (I wonder how many crooked deals he has pulled off over the years that we don't know about?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 15 Nov 08 - 07:22 AM Still, it would be interesting to explore the political motivations of the jury, if any. It could be Orange Juice Simpson all over again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 15 Nov 08 - 11:18 AM Ah, come on. Stevens had lobbied to have the trial held in Alaska. If he had been found guilty here, you know that he would be saying that he wasn't tried amongst his peers and that it was too far away for his supporters in the Senate to have come to his defense. Nah. Let him ride. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 15 Nov 08 - 12:53 PM It could be he knew appeal was his only chance, so he was tried in the most heavily Democratic district in the country for the very purpose of making the trial into a politacal agenda to victimize him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 15 Nov 08 - 03:49 PM It could be that Ted Stevens screwed up once too often, and finally got nailed. I do hope Mark Begich builds more of a lead than a thousand votes. It does seem likely given the number of votes outstanding. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 15 Nov 08 - 04:23 PM It might be interesting to see inside your head, Rig. Dismaying, perhaps, but interesting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:20 PM Plot development is an important part of building drama! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:43 PM Personally, I've had quite enough of drama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:50 PM Well, I suspect it will be over (drama that is) if you end up with a Democratic senator, especially if he wears beige jackets and bow ties. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ron Davies Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:16 AM I agree with Ebbie. To look into Mr. Riginslimer's head would be intriguing. It would be the examination of a true fossil. Anybody who has no use for Mexicans and any blacks in public life certainly qualifies as a fossil--especially with President-Elect Obama taking over soon. The extent of Mr. Riginslimer's obsolescence can be seen elsewhere also. California is already a white-minority state. And that's the way the US is heading. Anybody who does not accept that blacks, Hispanics and other non-whites will be playing a progressively more prominent part on the US political scene is doomed himself to play more and more of an also-ran role. And he seems to be already exhibiting the signs of a fearful minority. Why else would he raise absurd ideas like Obama's advocating reparations for slavery?--a concept which Obama has never even raised, much less endorsed--and, as the advocate of a post-racial future, would never do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Rapparee Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:18 AM Who, pray tell, is "white" and who is "black" or "people of color"? I'm sort of a tannish-pink, myself. Even an albino has some skin color. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ron Davies Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:22 AM And before he responds--without an iota of evidence, as usual--that Obama may do so, let me just say that if Mr. Riginslimer likes, he is certainly welcome to live his life in fear. We Obama supporters don't really think that's a healthy choice--and we decline it. And, as I've said elsewhere, I hope Mr. Riginslimer has a good time learning to say "President Obama". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ron Davies Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:37 AM "that he may do so"; that is, advocate financial reparations for slavery--which he (Obama) will never do. Not only does Obama, as a very smart person, realize this would be a disastrous idea politically, but he also realizes it makes no sense and would be impossible to admininister. It's only one of the last items left in the smear-merchants' storehouse. Smears R Us has fallen on hard times, and it looks like it will be closing soon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: artbrooks Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:49 AM Please make sure you have your running shoes on if you tell a Hispanic that he or she is "non-white". "Hispanic" is a label invented by the US government that somehow tries to collectively identify everyone who is from, or whose ancestors are from, a Spanish-speaking nation. Thus, King Juan Carlos of Spain, Guadalupe from El Salvador who cleans the rooms in the Motel 6, Brittany from Albuquerque (whose ancestors came here in 1610 and who speaks no Spanish) and Enrico (Heinrich) from Argentina (who speaks German at home) are all Hispanics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ron Davies Date: 16 Nov 08 - 05:46 PM Don't worry, Art. But you can bet that Mr. Riginslimer does not consider Mexicans as white. Whether he would consider any Spaniards "white" would be an interesting question--since I'm sure some of them consider themselves pure "white". But, however you would like to label Mexicans, they are among his--many--fears. A fear he--and those who feel as he does-- have to start overcoming soon--or be themselves relegated to irrelevance. But he can start to overcome his fear of non-whites by practicing saying "President Obama" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Barry Finn Date: 16 Nov 08 - 07:41 PM We are all people of color, it's just that some whites don't yet want to join the human race. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:11 PM Still 20,000 or so votes to count, with most of them from Anchorage and other larger towns. I think Mark Begich will end up increasing his margin of victory from 1000 to at least 5000 votes. Anyone else willing to guess or lay a bet? Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 18 Nov 08 - 02:39 AM hmmmm. 20,000 votes to go? In a primarily Begich town? I'll say 7,500. Conservatively. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:54 AM Ebbi- I'd be happy to see that, and if you win I'll treat you to a lobster dinner at the wharf in Five Islands; you have to cover transportation... And if I win? Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:19 AM Sounds good. Well, if you win (5000 votes or fewer for Mark Begich garnered from the remaining 20000) I'll stand you to dinner at the Twisted Fish on the waterfront in Juneau, Alaska next summer. You can have whatever you want but I'll have the Angelhair Pasta with Seafood- it's buttery and garlicky and briny. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Alaska Mike Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:34 PM As of 12:40 pm today (about an hour ago), Mark Begich was ahead of Ted Stevens by 2,374 votes. It should be over with soon and it looks like we WON!!! Still some more to count, plus the recount that is sure to happen, but I am very optimistic. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Bill D Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:45 PM Saves the Republicans a LOT of trouble booting him out the door.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:09 PM Looks as if the vote margin for Mark Begich will be about 3700 as announced this evening on MSNBC. And it's Twisted Fish on the waterfront in Juneau for me with Ebbie treating. Yum! I hope... Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Alice Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:15 PM Stevens has officially lost! ... and on his 85th birthday. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Alice Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:10 PM 3,724 votes more than Stevens in the press release I read |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: artbrooks Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:13 PM From the Washington Post: The longest-serving Republican in the history of the Senate trailed Anchorage Mayor Mark Begich by 3,724 votes after Tuesday's count. That's an insurmountable lead with only about 2,500 overseas ballots left to be counted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:45 PM Oh, Cholly, not to nitpick- there are still 2400 ballots to be counted... Nevertheless, with you or without you, I shall be at the Twisted Fish on the waterfront in Juneau, Alaska next summer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: GUEST,KT Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:19 AM Can I come too, Eb & Charley? KT |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:40 AM Perhaps, Sen. Stevens will find 3725 more ballots for himself from Eastern Siberia, or from inhabitants of shrinking ice floes. No, I think it's a done deal, the end of an era, and hopefully a rise in hope in the land of the midnight sun! I best Goggle "Twisted Fish" in Juneau and review the menu. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:43 AM Nailed it: Clink here for a good time! Looks great! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:52 AM Is it true Stevens can demand a recount? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:55 AM I lost the page where I got this: "A recount is possible. Stevens did not issue a statement, and campaign aides did not respond to calls for comment. "In Alaska, the losing candidate or a collection of 10 voters has three days to petition for a recount unless the vote was a tie, in which case it would be automatic. If the difference between the candidates is within 0.5 percent of the total votes cast, the state pays for the recount, to be started within three days of the recount petition. The state Elections Division has 10 days to complete the recount. " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:58 AM OK- here's the URL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:17 PM It will be interesting to see what the grounds for his appeal will be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:26 PM Maybe he'll threaten to hold his breath if they don't do a recount. Seriously, he doesn't need any grounds; he just needs to pay the state for a recount. If the vote were closer the state would foot the bill. But Stevens was reported as having conceded the race and no recount will be needed. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: GUEST,Steve in Idaho Date: 19 Nov 08 - 11:49 PM Just saw on the tube where he has acquiesced and is no longer going to serve. There's a new sheriff in his burg - He got beat - :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Barry Finn Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:42 AM He better start saving for his 'get out of jail' card, cause it won't be a freebee Give 'im the chair Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Nov 08 - 09:10 AM Charley - I didn't make myself clear. I was wondering what he would base his appeal on for the corruption charges, not a recount for the election. I think he's given up on that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Charley Noble Date: 20 Nov 08 - 09:35 AM Rigin- A number of grounds for appeal might be raised: Conspiracy between his wife and Bill Allen, the senator's longtime drinking and fishing buddy, and founder of VECO, to keep the true costs of the cottage renovation secret from Stevens. Attorney negligence, in the failure to raise the issue of insanity or senility as a defence. Judicial Bias, in that the judge was not a resident of Alaska! Jurial Bias, in that none of the jurors had even traveled to Alaska, and some were not even aware that it was a state (you can't see Alaska from Washington, DC). Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:40 PM Is that tongue-in-cheek Charley, or were there really jurors who were unaware that Alaska was a state? The way things are, I'm prepared to believe almost anything any more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 20 Nov 08 - 03:10 PM Charley Noble said, inter alia: Judicial Bias, in that the judge was not a resident of Alaska! Jurial Bias, in that none of the jurors had even traveled to Alaska, and some were not even aware that it was a state Neither of those (even if the second of them should be true) would show bias. To claim judicial bias, you'd have to show some evidence of actual biased thinking in some crucial rulings in the case. That the judge is not a resident of Alaska is merely an incident of the venue and particular judicial assignment, and there's no reason on the face of it why a non-Alaska judge could not be unbiased. And I seem to have read somewhere that Stevens actually had sought the eventual venue rather than Alaska. Even if he sought to be tried in Alaska and was overruled in the assignment of the venue he got, that MIGHT be a ground, but it wouldn't be on the basis of bias. The ruling that he be tried where he was, I'm sure, was by a different judge than the one who tried him. Having spent almost all of my working life in a federal trial court, I know that the jury will have been very thoroughly instructed as to the essential elements that the prosecution had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, including that Stevens was a United States Senator for Alaska, which I don't believe was ever denied by Stevens. A Senator is elected in and represents a State. Alaska's State status was not a fact in issue. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Big Mick Date: 20 Nov 08 - 03:13 PM Dave, it was a tongure in cheek comment...... Charley...... I got it. BTW, I can see Canada from my buddy's house in Port Huron. Mick |
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Subject: BS: Ted Stevens killed in plane crash From: Genie Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:26 AM Sad postscript. Ted Stevens was one of 5 people killed yesterday in the crash of a private plane in Alaska. Whatever his politics and flaws, I would not wish this on him. My condolences to his family and those of the others who perished. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ted Stevens convicted, may be re-elected From: Ebbie Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:51 AM Charley! Hey, Charley! When are you coming to Juneau to collect your dinner at the Twisted Fish? I've been there twice since 2007 and I did NOT see you there. And KT, you would be most welcome. I'll let you know when Charley is coming. |
