BS: Teenager stoned: A Story, which beggars belief

Subject: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:05 AM

As our bombs and rockets rain down on Muslim families in more than one country, I doubt whether these people need any lectures on morality from us. However, this story beggars belief.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:10 AM

Horrible. Not Islamic. Men asserting authority over women.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:13 AM

Friend Alan, I am beyond speechless. This barbarism is beyond rationalization under any circumstances. Anyone who makes any correlation to any other war, or act by a government, or in any way attempts to mitigate this cruel murder is beneath contempt.

I find myself sitting here with tears running down my face thinking of the last hour of this child's life.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Bee
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:19 AM

I agree essentially with Paul. All around the world are cultures which do not value women, and treat them cruelly in many cases. Some of them are Islamic, some not.

But Islam bears some of the blame here, because Islamic religious leaders do not speak out and condemn it.

I read about this yesterday, and like Mick was moved to tears. Thirteen years old! A thousand people watched!

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:21 AM

The Somali jihadis somehow make the Taliban at their worst look good.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:25 AM

Her last hour. Her last few days. There is nothing to say.


How do families protect their children in a world like that.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:26 AM

How do we know that Islamic leaders do not speak out and condemn it? One thing I've definitely noticed about claims like that one is that they are usually not true. Usually Islamic leaders have spoken and continue to speak out against it, but nobody has bothered to notice that they have.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:35 AM

And nobody seems to listen.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:39 AM

How awful. We should be grateful that we live in a society that protects us from this sort of abomination. IMHO fundamentalists of any stripe are the biggest threat to the wellbeing of any country.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:41 AM

These are not human beings. Period. They have been born human, and rejected their humanity by their own choice.

P.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:43 AM

I wouldn't say nobody listens, but certainly the Muslim-hating West and the perpetrators of crimes like that one do not listen.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:48 AM

It hasn't anything whatever to do with politics. It has to do with not being willing to stand by and watch people spread hate. Certainly the crime that is discussed in the opening post is a horrendous one. But an even bigger crime and tragedy is when people generalize the crimes of some people and hold an entire group responsible for them. I would have thought that any moral person would know this.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:57 AM

Speaking up is NOT enough. What's called for is to stop the stoning.Stand in front of the stones being thrown if need be. So in my eyes these "leaders" should accept part of the blame. It was a stupid cruel waste of an innocent life.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:05 AM

"Inside the stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to the killing attempted to save her life..."

There were not only bad people in that stadium.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:06 AM

My last post was in response to a post that has been removed. I don't want people to think I just threw that comment in there for no particular reason. A Mudcat moderator has been removing my posts in explanation of my last post, apparently for personal reasons, and not because of any infractions of Mudcat rules.


How can people who are nowhere near the scene of that crime be expected to stand in front of the stoners? And why were the people posting in this thread not standing in front of the stoners and making it stop? Why do we only generalize the crimes of people who call themselves Muslims but not any other group? The religion being practiced by these particular barbarians is Islam. There are barbarians committing horrendous crimes who belong to other religions, too. Let's not use this crime as an excuse to justify and commit further crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:12 AM

I doubt if Islam or any code of behavior, no matter how bizarre, had anything to do with it.

The al-Shabab militia wished to send the people a message 'Do not complain to anybody of any crimes by our members, or you will suffer for it.'

It was an act of oppression, pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:12 AM

Make us aware of crimes like this from other religious groups and we'll object to those too. This is on a case by case basis { stupid is as stupid does - F.Gump } . But a defense of these people - if it should be considered a defense at all - goes hand and hand with the type of folks who believe "My country right or wrong".

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:17 AM

"Inside the stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to the killing attempted to save her life, and shot dead a boy who was a bystander."

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Bee
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:20 AM

CarolC, you seem not to be reading posts which actually have pointedly noted that Islam is not the only group that treats women badly.

If this were a Hindu honour killing, it would be condemned, along with whatever it is in their culture which condones such acts.

If this were an honour killing or acid attack in Brazil, it would be condemned, along with the woman-hating male culture that supports such acts.

In this case, Muslims killed this child and used Islam as an excuse.

But Imams and Muslims have access to the internet as we do, if not in Somalia, certainly everywhere else, yet I have found one Imam or Mullah speaking out about this kind of crime online, just one. They should be crying out in loud choruses about such evil, not meekly sitting back and saying nothing.

I have found one Australian Islamic religious leader speaking out about the treatment of women.

http://www.islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1663&Itemid=96

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:20 AM

I was not there. I have on occasion stepped in to stop an act of bullying. Whether or not I would have the magnificent courage of those, who tried to stop this atrocity, I would hesitate to boast.
Fortunately, very few of us are ever called to respond to a situation of horror on this scale. It is not fair that we should ever have to. It is even less fair to abandon this child to her fate. I have never been asked to face that sort of test. I don't feel smug about it though - not at all.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:21 AM

Nobody's defending the people who committed the crime, which I would think is quite obvious by the language I've been using when referring to the crime and the people who committed it.

The people I am defending are the more than a billion other people, who did not commit this crime, who are being held responsible for it.

When we in the US hear people denigrating all Black people because some Black people commit crimes, we quite rightly call the people who do that "racists". I would say it's no less racist to hold all Muslims responsible for the behavior of some Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:23 AM

But an even bigger crime and tragedy is when people generalize the crimes of some people and hold an entire group responsible for them.

I'm sorry Carol, but you are doing the same thing when you say I wouldn't say nobody listens, but certainly the Muslim-hating West and the perpetrators of crimes like that one do not listen.. I am part of the west but I don't hate Muslims and nor do the majority of the people that I know. I hate injustice and cruelty wherever it arises and wish that I had the courage to do more than just feel dismayed when things like this happen.


Amnesty said al-Shabab had created a climate of fear in which government officials, journalists and human rights activists faced death threats and killing if they spoke against the militia.

When it is the men with the guns who are perpetrating these outrages it is difficult for others to stand against them. As was stated in the article that I read, these 'men' opened fire on those who protested, killing one person. It is the governments that condone these actions that have to be held accountable but, it seems, unless there is a perceived financial advantage, other governments will just turn their backs and walk away.

It must take a lot of courage for any one person to stand against the might of a force of armed men. How many in Germany were against the treatment of the Jews and other minority groups, but were afraid to speak out in case they were treated in the same way? How many in the Soviet Union looked the other way? How many of us, if faced with a similar situation, would stand in front of the stones or guns or hide a fugitive from an oppressive regime?

Right now there are no reports of Islamic leaders condemning the murder, but that may be because there is only a basic report coming out, it seems, via Amnesty. What more we will hear will depend upon how important the media consider this story to be. Unfortunately. my cynical side thinks that this will, like other stories of its type, be a short lived item with very little follow up so we will probably never find out the degree of disgust and disapproval displayed by Islamic leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:25 AM

What I am criticizing is the statement that no Islamic leaders have criticized this crime. I would challenge anyone who would make such a statement to take the trouble to find out what Islamic leaders have had to say about it before making such a statement (I've never run across anyone who says things like that who has actually bothered to find out what Islamic leaders have said before they make such a statement).

The fact is, most of the time, Islamic leaders do criticize such crimes, but we in the West aren't interested in hearing them when they do that, because it doesn't conform to our prejudices about Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:28 AM

So far I haven't read any posts on this thread that would attempt to blame this on Muslims in general. Just whatever animals were there at the time. And yes - I will label the people who did this as animals - no matter what twisted religious beliefs they may hold.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:28 AM

THIS THREAD ISN'T A DISCUSSION ABOUT ANTI MUSLIM PREJUDICES!!! IT IS ABOUT A LITTLE GIRL KILLED BY THUGS, AND A THOUSAND FOLKS WATCHED IT HAPPEN.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM

Or because we don't read Arabic newsgroups?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM

How do we know there are no reports of Islamic leaders criticizing this crime? Really... how do we know this?

Every single time I have seen someone make a statement like that one, and I've taken the time to find out, I have found that the person making such a statement simply hasn't bothered to find out. It doesn't help that our media consistently refuse to report when Islamic leaders condemn such acts. But that is a manifestation of the anti-Muslim prejudice that I am talking about that we see here in the West.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:31 AM

Ignorance and fear have been problems in this world ever since Og bashed in Mog's head with a club, back in 986,000 B.C.

If you hear about it, it's very upsetting. Now just stop and consider about all the similarly horrible things that happened today which you will probably never hear about. They won't make the news. They will have been crimes committed by Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, atheists, agnostics, soldiers, police officers, criminals, guerrilla fighters, Americans, Russians, Peruvians, men from any variety of places, and probably even a few women, and maybe some children.

And you won't hear a peep about 99% of them.

And then, on the other hand, a simply vast number of people will behave decently and lovingly today and will harm no one.

You won't hear about them either, will you?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM

When people make prejudicial statements about Muslims in a thread like this one, the thread becomes about anti-Muslim prejudices. Any time people us a thread like this one to promote anti-Muslim prejudices, it becomes about anti-Muslim prejudices.

Perhaps if more people would examine their prejudices, threads like this one could just be about the crime and not about the group to which the criminals belong.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM

So far that antimuslim prejudice hasn't shown up on this thread has it?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:41 AM

Yes it has. When people say that no Muslim leaders have spoken up about this crime, the person saying that is displaying an anti-Muslim prejudice. One has to pre judge the Muslim leaders of the world in order to imagine that one knows that they have not spoken up about it.

As I said before, every time I've seen people say that Muslim leaders have not spoken up about a particular horrible thing, and I've then taken the trouble to find out whether or not this is true, I have found that the person making that statement has simply made it up out of thin air, without ever bothering to take the time to find out whether or not Muslim leaders have said anything about it. Because invariably, I have found that Muslim leaders have unequivocally condemned the act in question.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:41 AM

"KILLED BY THUGS, AND A THOUSAND FOLKS WATCHED IT HAPPEN. "

or, putting it another way,

"Killed by armed thugs, who fired on people from the crowd who tried to stop it happening, and killed at least one of them."

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:56 AM

A very sad thread in many ways...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:00 AM

Yes it is.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: bobad
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Is stoning women to death, mandated by Koran or Islam?
Pooja (Who am I?) | Apr 30 2007

Women and girls in Iraq live in constant fear of violence as the conflict intensifies and insecurity spirals. Within their own communities, many women and girls remain at risk of death or injury from male relatives if they are accused of behavior held to have brought dishonor on the family.

Recently, in Bashika, Mosul, hundreds of men beat and stoned a 17 year old woman named Du'a Khalil Aswad to death, in a gruesome example of collective 'honour killing'. The woman, a member of the Yezidi religion, which is practiced by Kurds in Northern Iraq, ran away from her family to join an Arab Muslim man with whom she had fallen in love and had been meeting secretly, but who rejected her. Damned under the 'honour' code, for running away, for choosing outside her own community and for being ultimately rejected, Du'a had nowhere to go.

For a couple of days, she had put up with a local Yezidi tribal leader but to live in peace was not in her destiny. She was abducted and brutally murdered in front of hundreds of men by her relatives — who stripped her body, beat and kicked her, and killed her by crushing her body with rocks and concrete blocks. The police officials too participated in the disgusting communal murder.

Stoning: Is it the part of culture in Iraq?

Death by stoning is slow and painful. Islamic code prescribes that 'the stone should not be so big as to kill the offender with one or two stones' and 'nor should it be as small as pebbles'.

The Islamic groups resort to every possible method to terrorize Iraqi women. Today, stoning is only practiced in order to maintain the submission of its women and those in the lower cast. Also, those impoverished or socially unimportant are punished by stoning.
stoning_22_50

Silent Killings

There are frequent reports of 'honor crimes' in Iraq - in particular in the predominantly Kurdish north of the country. Most victims of 'honor crimes' are women and girls who are considered by their male relatives and others to have shamed the women's families by immoral behavior.

Often grounds for such accusations are flimsy and no more than rumor.

What is the situation like?

The government's failure to protect women, and enforce laws against criminals, has created a situation where thousands of women become victims of so called honor killings. Violence has risen as a result of patriarchal and religious traditions.

In the 21st century, for such crimes to be carried out in broad daylight is not only a shame on society as whole, but most of all, it is a shame on a government that is unable to protect women from such inhumane and backward practices.

With officials largely silent on the issue except to deny that it occurs, it is unclear how many more women in the province are stoned to death.

The barbaric and violent practice of stoning will continue as long as people will water the cult of Islam, MuHAMmad, which has put his hands everywhere especially in this inhuman practice of 'stoning women to death' and in imposing uncivilized Sharia Law upon human culture.

It forces me to ask a question, can women in Muslim countries ever expect to breathe in the air of self- approbation?

http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/is-stoning-women-to-death-mandated-by-koran-or-islam/

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:19 AM

Stoning is clearly mandated in the Old Testament by Mosaic Law for certain specific crimes, as defined in that ancient society. The books of the Old Testament are part of the sacred scriptures of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

When Jesus gave his teachings he supplanted the old "eye for an eye" philosophies of the Old Testament with his new doctrines of forgiveness and nonviolence...which very clearly would forbid stoning people.

Christians claim to follow Jesus' teachings. If they did, they would definitely not stone people, burn them at the stake, or do other horrible things to them, but some Christians have historically done many such horrible things.

Muslims revere Jesus as a true prophet of God and claim to believe in his teachings. If they did, they would definitely not stone people or do other horrible things to them, but some Muslims have historically done many such horrible things.

The Jews (as a religious community) never accepted Jesus as a true prophet of God and do not include the New Testament in their teachings. Therefore it appears to me that the Jews are the one group among those 3 great religions who could, if they so desired, stone people without clearly violating their own stated religious beliefs and the teachings they claim to follow!

Ironical, isn't it?

The fact is, a lot of people in this world think they are following the teachings of some religion or other, but all they are really following is what some local authority figure or their own selfish nature told them to do. They are hypocrites...or they are just plain ignorant...or they are both. Probably both, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:19 AM

From the Global Campaign to Stop Killing and Stoning Women...


# Have Islamic authorities spoken out against stoning?

Many Muslim clerics, religious scholars, and political leaders have spoken out against the practice of stoning, deeming it "un-Islamic." Ayatollah Nasser Makarem Shirazi, Ayatollah Yousef Saneii and Ayatollah Seyyed Mohamamd Mousavi Bojnourdi have all spoken out against the practice. Some Muslim clerics such as Ayatollah Hussein Mousavi Tabrizi argued that stoning should be stopped as a response to the demands of modern age. Others decry that any punishment, including stoning, that defames, embarrasses or depicts a bad picture of Islam is harmful to the religion and should be discontinued. Nobel Peace Prize winner Shirin Ebadi, in her discussion of the practice, point out that many religious leaders see stoning as an "endorsement" law that can be changed, as opposed to a "constitutional" law; and that many other Muslim countries such as Malaysia, Indonesia, Tunisia, Morocco, and Algeria do not condone stoning.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:20 AM

From the same site...

# Is stoning a tenet of "Islamic" law?

Stoning is a highly debated issue among Muslim religious clerics, and there is no consensus within the global Muslim community over the validity of the practice as "Islamic Law." Although there is no mention of stoning in the Quran, many Muslim clerics cite instances in the Hadith, the acts and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, when discussing the legitimacy of the practice of stoning in Islam. In the Hadiths (the collected traditions of the Prophet), the Prophet Muhammad is said to have prescribed stoning explicitly for Jews who had been found guilty of adultery. Although the Quran (24:2 Surah al-Nur) only stipulates 100 lashes for adultery, the Prophet Muhammad reportedly had a number of men and women stoned in his time, hence giving evidence to those who argue for the codifying of this punishment as Shariah, or Islamic Law. After the Prophet Muhammad's death, the first generation of Muslim legal scholars included adultery as one of the six major offences in Islamic law for which the penalty is fixed by God and Quran (Hudud.) However, because the justification for stoning relies completely on the Hadith and not on the Quran, many scholars question its label as Hudud, the very definition of such being "punishments mandated by God." Such inconsistencies between the Hadith and Quran have been a source of confusion and remain controversial to this day.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:42 AM

She wasn't an adulterer. She was 13 years old and she was raped - by three men.

How is that just cause for her to be executed in the most inhuman way possible?   

What happened to the rapists?

What 'beggars belief' even more than the story is that a woman can choose to ignore the heinous crime that's been perpetrated by these fruitcake animals, and expend a huge amount of energy blathering on about how prejudiced we all are.

Some people have a very weird, skewed view of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:43 AM

should have said inhumane, not "inhuman".

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:51 AM

Nobody in this thread has said that there was any just cause for what was done to this girl. To suggest otherwise is dishonest. Nobody in this thread has made any excuses whatever for the behavior of the people who committed this crime. To suggest otherwise is dishonest. Nobody in this thread has ignored the crime that was done to this girl. To suggest otherwise is dishonest.

The question of whether or not what was done to the 13 year old girl is a right or wrong is an entirely separate question than whether or not people are using this crime as an excuse to promote hate towards people who had nothing whatever to do with the crime in question.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:53 AM

Well, I know we all share your disgust at what happened, Backwoodsman, but what now? We are not in any position to influence what goes on among some ignorant and fearful tribal people in Somalia, are we?

All we can do is yell about how awful it makes us feel and express our horror and disbelief that people can act that way. Then what?

And whatever happened to those pirates who were holding that ship for ransom, by the way?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:55 AM

Among the comments (admittedly cherry-picked) in Al Jazeera's coverage of this story:

TG Ethiopia
                
It is really very sad to hear a 13 year old raped girl stoned in the name of faith. I am also sorry on the Aljzeera it self, for the media which transmits a suside bomb blasts on daily basis like a soccer game the coverage given for this inoccent girl was was much more lower. I call all muslim brothers & sisters to disclose and strongly oppose this crime & inhumen act in the name of Islam.

Yaska Somalia

S/alaykum, I am from Somalia and what has happened in Kismayo was not fabricated and it was true. That little innocent girl was stoned badly to death by militias who are practicing unfairly. I am not aganist my religion Islam but strongly appose the way they have carried out the execution. She was stoned by fifty men to death and taken out from the execution hole 3 times to make sure her death. I was so heartbroken by what has happened in Kismayo.

Mohamed Somalia
                
Shocking and Bizzare that such brutal acts are happening now. The girl was 13 and there is no islamic that will allow an innocent child to brutally killed! I am somali and I know some of the relatives of that innocnet child who knew the girl from her bith. I hope those bastards including the devil Sheikh who claims to have judged the girl with her consent will be punished. The men who raped the girl are happily going in the streets of kismaayo coz they come from majority & an armed clan.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:00 PM

This is just another case of a bunch of heavily armed bandits doing what they want to do in a lawless land, putting the onus on someone else shifting the blame. It is not indicative of anything about religion, it is indicative of lawlessness itself and the exercise of brutal power by brutal men.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM

This crime has nothing to do with Islam. It's an example of what happens when people with low regard for humanity achieve positions of power. The rapists were militia members, the girl's family complained, the militia used Islam as a smokescreen to "punish" the girl. Their real message was simply "We're in charge and we'll do anything we damned well please. Don't like being raped? See how you like being dead." If they weren't nominally Islamic, they would probably have killed the girl anyway. Their "religion" simply gave them a way to do so in a spectacular fashion that allowed them to get their message across to thousands instead of just a handful.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 01:38 PM

I feel so sad having read this.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM

There are people in this thread who always find a way to twist the thread around to them and their agenda. Not once has this person expressed outrage at the death of a 13 year old little girl, for the crime of allowing herself to be raped by criminal thugs. Not once has this person mentioned her anger at 1000 people standing by, nor at the "jihadi" that claim to be doing this to enforce the will of a Supreme Being. Instead, this person, in typical self centered fashion, wants to turn this into a discussion that suits the politic that this person professes.

This isn't about anti Muslim prejudice. It is about the death of a little girl.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:24 PM

I have no agenda other than to speak out against hate. If some people have a problem with that agenda, I would say that says far more about them than it does about me.

My feelings about what happened to the girl in question in this thread are my business, and I don't share the need that some people apparently have of making a big public show about them. Some people seem to think that the only way to have feelings is to make a big exhibition of them.

But when I see people using human rights issues as an excuse to promote hate, I consider that them moment when it is my responsibility to say something about it publicly.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM

Carol - What happened to that little girl is everyones business. She's a perfect example of a victim of hate. You can see that can't you??

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:35 PM

That is the phoniest post yet. Read the title of the thread, and the first post. You immediately hijacked the thread, and have made only passing comments as to the girl, instead turning it to the same old crap. No one on this thread was promoting hate, but you are using a tragedy, and a crime by thugs, to attempt to further your agenda. And once again I point out, you have not once made a comment about the poor little girl.

I have said my peace, and am done with this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:35 PM

And let me just say, since some people seem to want to make this thread about me, now, that in the last couple of days, I have posted in at least two places, this account of things done by people who were backed by the government of the US, but I didn't notice any outrage about these horrendous crimes coming from the self-righteous people in this thread...


"They took out their knives and stuck them under his fingernails. After they took his fingernails off, then they broke his elbows. Afterwards they gouged out his eyes. Then they took their bayonets and made all sorts of slices in his skin all around his chest, arms, and legs. They then took his hair off and the skin of his scalp. When they saw there was nothing left to do with him, they threw gasoline on him and burned him. The next day they started the same thing with a 13 year old girl. They did more or less the same, but they did other things to her too. First, she was utilized, raped by all the officers. They stripped her and threw her in a small room, they went in one by one. Afterwards they took her out tied and blindfolded. Then they began the same mutilating, pulling her fingernails out and cutting off her fingers, breaking her arms, gouging out her eyes and all they did to the other fellow. They cut her legs and stuck an iron rod into her womb.

Rosa had her breasts cut off. Then they cut into her chest and took out her heart. The men had their arms broken and their testicles cut off and their eyes poked out. They were then killed by slitting their throats and pulling the tongue out through the slit.


Spare me the self-righteousness.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:39 PM

And when I ask myself why no one has expressed any outrage about what was done to that 13 year old girl, the only thing I can guess is that it wasn't done by Muslims, so that must make it ok.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:40 PM

Nobody has made a big public show about their feelings for this little girl and what was done to her; the terrible suffering she must have endured. It is important though that those of us with feelings who wish to express them should be able to do so without criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:45 PM

Nobody at this point has enough information about the actual circumstances to know whether it would be justified to feel "anger at 1000 people standing by". What we have been told is that some of those people risked their lives trying to stop it, in face of gunfire, and one was killed.

It is very easy for anger at atrocities carried out by people belonging to or even acting ostensibly in the name of some religion or nation (or whatever), to be used as a way of generating hate against members of that religion or nation (or whatever). And the outcome often enough has been horrible - riots, lynchings, pogroms...

It is not right to attack people who try to prevent this process as if they were somehow defending the people who were responsible for the original atrocity.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:46 PM

Carol, what you posted at 2.35pm has made me feel sad too. I hadn't seen it before or I would have expressed my feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:47 PM

I have not said that people shouldn't be able to express their feelings about what was done to this poor child. I had only one point that I wanted to make (before people started piling up on me) and that point is that people shouldn't make assumptions about what has and has not been condemned by Islamic leaders. Because those assumptions are invariably wrong. That was the ONLY point I wanted to make.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:47 PM

Ah, now I understand - the Contras did despicable things to innocent people 25 years ago, so sorrow about the death of another innocent this week is "self-righteousness". Sorry, but your indignation about people being out to get you ("since some people seem to want to make this thread about me) is misplaced. Thank you for, once again, derailing what could have been an interesting discussion. I'm also out of here.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:51 PM

No, what is "self-righteous" is if someone like me points out that people are making prejudiced assumptions about an entire group of more than a billion people, that means I have some kind of nefarious agenda, and that I don't care about the girl who was stoned. That's what is self-righteous.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:39 PM

The most striking aspect of this terrible story is that there was an outbreak of mass hysteria and it resulted in a temporary loss of humanity by many people. Similar stories have emerged from all societies in all ages. It is not and never was intended to stir up resentment of any particular group other than the one, which was directly involved.
The first sentence of this thread, which has been tacitly endorsed by all subsequent posters, was intended to make that clear.
Despicable as the actions of this mob were, they were the result of abandoning basic, instinctive humanity and surrendering to herd instinct, superficially backed up by a psuedo morality. We are all appalled by these cases - wherever and whenever we hear them. Had the thugs in question called themselves Christian, Hindu, Jewish or Bhuddist, our outrage would have been no less.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 04:45 PM

Another story that defies imagination.

Sad but true - The murder of children in not confined to the middle east.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 04:54 PM

Well-said, Alan.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM

Of course it is not. No one here is under any illusions about that. It is a horrible case. The difference here is that there is some prospect of the perpetrators spending a few years in prison with time to contemplate what they did. There was also no pretence at justification of the crime. The difference in Somalia is that the "law" was on the side of the murderers.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:11 PM

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that they were operating under the law. For one thing, because there really is no law in Somalia. Somalia is a country with no central government and no functioning societal structure. It's a completely lawless land where ruthless people rule small areas through the use of the most brutal tactics. That's the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:22 PM

That's right. What you have there is strictly the rule of force. He with the most guns makes the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:26 PM

It is down to semantics really Carol. Where mob law or law of the gun is the only law, it's still "the law". Of course, I don't respect that kind of law any more than you or anyone else here.
I read a report by Amnesty International which said that the absence of state authority was the biggest current threat to civil rights in the world. That is a pretty hefty (although by no means contradictory) statement from an organisation, which has fought totalitarian regimes for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:27 PM

The most striking aspect of this terrible story is that there was an outbreak of mass hysteria and it resulted in a temporary loss of humanity by many people.

From the story as printed it's not at all clear that this was what was involved.

As Bee-dubya-ell's suggested earlier (03 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM) it sounds very much like a case of a local regime of organised thugs using terror as a way to impose their authority on a community and stop anyone from daring to object to them doing whatever they choose to do.

Maybe most of the people in that crowd did approve of what was happening. Maybe they were appalled but terrified, scared of the thugs with the guns and the uniforms, fearful lest perhaps the other people around might be approving what was happening, and were ready to turn on them, if they indicated dissent. We aren't in a position to know, and when we don't know, we shouldn't feel entitled to judge them.

I'd suspect the longterm prospects of the people running that regime are not very good.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:35 PM

It could have been like that too. My main intention was to draw parallels with other bestial atrocities.

I hope your last sentence proves to be corect.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:37 PM

And perhaps if the populace didn't turn out to 'watch' they were afraid THEY would be the next targets! Very possible. It's still HORRIBLE tho.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:17 PM

I don't agree that it's semantics to say that complete societal breakdown is the equivalent of law. It may be the equivalent of rule but that's not the same thing as law.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:27 PM

There is, embedded in Muslim culture, especially in certain parts of Africa...but also in areas in Turkey and elsewhere, an attitude that women are to to be controlled and used and treated as the offender, not as the victim. They are also victims of genital mutilation and other abominations. Their participation in
Even though these practices are NOT condoned in the Koran, and even though 'many' Muslim scholars and activists have spoken out, the practices and abuses continue on a fairly regular basis. Female mutilation is practiced BY families, and stories like this of rape are seen, I'd imagine, less often than it actually happens.
"Honor" has caused family members to kill girls who have been 'defiled', no matter whose fault it was!

These things HAPPEN, and they happen far more commonly in certain Muslim cultural areas than elsewhere. *IF* the relevant scholars & clerics and leaders are doing little more than 'formally' objecting and writing articles, they are almost as guilty as those committing the offenses! I would guess that officials in the area where the offenses happen have a real concern for their own safety should they try to interfere in cultural practices of long standing. They will tell the world that 'it is getting better with time', but many of them simply say the equivilent of "tsk, tsk" and go 'on record' as not condoning abuse.

It is impossible to know, of course, how many similar events occur for each one that make international news, but two would be too many.

   There are 'reasons' for such murders and for the general control and abuse of women; reasons rooted in thousand of years of culture....but that does not make them GOOD reasons, and certainly not 'excuses.

Until we see serious attempts to condemn and STOP such things...BY major clerics & leaders throughout Muslim lands, these deaths and slightly less vicious 'punishements' will continue....and commenting on it by those who are horrified will continue.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:33 PM

It is incorrect to say those things are embedded in "Muslim culture". Islam is not that monolithic. There are many, many Muslim cultures, and there is a hell of a lot of divergence between many of the different Muslim cultures. It is more correct to say that those particular attitudes and practices are embedded in some Muslim cultures, as they are in some non-Muslim cultures as well.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: GUEST,Bruce M. Baillie
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:38 PM

I have this to say but it's not me saying it! It comes from a Sikh friend of mine. "Wherever in the world you find trouble, you'll find a muslim".
I agree with him...

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:40 PM

It is also incorrect to think that what Imams in one part of the world say or do can possibly have an effect on what Imams in another part of the world say or do. It is no more appropriate to suggest that Imams in California, for instance, can change how Islam is practiced in Somalia than it is to say that the pastor of the Episcopal church down the road from me can make that branch of Mormons who marry children stop doing what they're doing.   The pastor of the Episcopal church down the road from me cannot possibly make those people stop what they're doing, no matter what that he or she says or does, nor could the entire Episcopal Church in the US do so, and to hold the Imams to a different standard than we hold the clergy of other religions is the kind of thing I'm talking about when I talk about the anti-Muslim prejudice in the West.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:43 PM

Yes, it's Muslims that caused the Contras to do all of those horrible things to that 13 year old girl that I posted the account of earlier in this thread. It's Muslims that are causing the Hindu Tamil Tigers to commit acts of terrorism.

This is the kind of racism that I am talking about when I protest people holding all Muslims responsible for what some Muslims do. And anyone who doesn't stand up to that sort of thing is guilty of exactly the same thing they are accusing the Imams of the world when they say they aren't doing enough to stop it.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:52 PM

Carol, often I agree with you, but there is no defence for a religion that does not unanimously condemn this atrocity.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:58 PM

No Muslims involved in this Honor killing. Only Sikhs...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Honour_killing_Girlfriends_family_sets_boy_ablaze/articleshow/3592254.cms

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:05 PM

As I said before, Islam is not a monolithic religion. One can't condemn the whole religion on the basis of what some of its members do or don't do, any more than they can condemn any other religion on the basis of what some of its members do or don't do. To do otherwise is prejudiced.

Some Imams speak out about things like stonings and other atrocities committed by other Muslims, and they and the Islam that they practice should not be judge according to what other Muslims do or don't do, because even when they speak out about it, they still have no way to make it stop.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:10 PM

And of course when we say there is no defence for a religion that doesn't unanimously condemn atrocities committed by other members of that religion, we are saying that there is no defense of any religion anywhere in the world. One could also say that there is no defense for any country that doesn't unanimously condemn atrocities committed by some members of those countries, which would put both of our countries in a pretty awkward spot.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: pdq
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:11 PM

Unless I miscounted, CarolC has posted 27 times to this thread. It has only 77 total posts. Is that really what the folks who started Mudcat intended?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:12 PM

I wonder why the above poster only counts the number of posts I've made and not those of any of the other people who make numerous posts? Could it be a particular bias on their part?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:13 PM

I don't think you'd be right to blame the Quakers for anything the "Aryan Christians" might get up to.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:21 PM

pdq - some 'issues' are felt very keenly by people of strong principles - I see nothing wrong with the expression of this on any thread - I'm sure the 'maths' would demonstrate a superfluity of posts in some of the US election threads from regular posters too.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:37 PM

"Some Imams speak out about things like stonings and other atrocities committed by other Muslims,...."

And I said as much in my comments. I also said VERY clearly that it is not universal, just that it IS the extreme of a basic attitude & orientation common to Muslim culture(s). When women are subjugated and treated as 2nd...or 3rd ...class in a culture, it is not a bit surprising that extremists take it to such horrific places.

Showing us that some Immams do condemn it does not alter the situation. Too many do not...and those who do need to do it more...and LOUDER.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:41 PM

But how would we be likely to hear if they do? Only if it gets picked up by the media we come across.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:44 PM

I expect that IF serious attempts are made by many Muslim leaders, it will be quite well noted in many news outlets... the BBC in particular, and I see the BBC quite often here.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:10 PM

Basic attitude and orientation common to some Muslim cultures. There is no such thing as "Muslim culture".

Many Muslim leaders do speak out, very vocally. But the Western media makes a determined effort to not report it when they do. This is a complaint that quite a few Muslim leaders have. They feel that the Western media completely ignores them when they speak out against horrendous things done by other Muslims, and then the very same media criticizes them for not speaking out. This is a part of the discrimination that Muslims are subjected to by Western countries.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:45 PM

Islam is a religion as Christianity is a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:56 PM

Islam and Christianity are really many religions that operate under two names.

Subject: BS: Muslims stone 13 year old girl to death
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:33 AM

Read this and weep:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7694397.stm

Although this report does not state her age, on the radio this morning, the BBC said that she was 13 years old.

It will be interesting to see what the various Muslim councils around the world will have to say about this. Bugger all probably.

Allah the compassionate, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims stone 13 year old girl to death
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:37 AM

Apparently even the Muslims in Somalia are horrified at this, and are worried that it will show sharia law in a bad light. The fact is that this is nothing to do with sharia law or even with religion, it sounds to me like a militia-organised lynching, probably to cover up for the fact that she was raped by their members.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims stone 13 year old girl to death
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:40 AM

What George said is exactly how I reacted to the story. Wait 'til the Mail gets hold of it though.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims stone 13 year old girl to death
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:48 AM

I would like to object very strongly to the retitling of this threwad(caused by combining two threads, I suppose). It makes it appear that alanabit started a thread with this very provocative title.And I don't believe he did so, this isn't his style. I think this is his thread with somebody else's title.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims stone 13 year old girl to death
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:58 AM

Yes, the thread title has been changed to a highly charged, provocative style. When American forces bombed a Pakistani village, you wouldn't have titled a thread "Christians kill Muslims" would you (despite the large preponderance of Christians in the American army compared tp, say , the British army)? In fact, the circumstances surrounding this suggest strongly that the rapists were supporters of a local warlord, and that killing the girl was mainly to warn others not to try to take action against his mates.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslims stone 13 year old girl to death
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:13 AM

The title is mine. I like provocative titles. It gets people thinking. And the title doesn't lie. Under Sharia law, you can stone people to death. Mohammed sanctions it in the Koran. The people who stoned this girl to death were Muslims. They did it in the name of their religion.

I do think, however, they went outside their own law to do this in order to impose their own agenda; but if the girl had been older, had committed the "crimes" that she had been accused of, would that make her stoning acceptable? You can bet your life that there are some "progressives", who go to extraordinary lengths to prove their liberal credentials, who would find some argument to excuse it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:14 AM

"When American forces bombed a Pakistani village, you wouldn't have titled a thread "Christians kill Muslims" would you?"

You would if it was done in the name of Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: GUEST,Justin Urquart
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:40 AM

I don't fully understand their culture, so the rest of you should do the same. BUTT OUT OF IT.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: kendall
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:02 AM

Seems to me that the bottom line has little to do with religion, but much more to do with men who are worse than animals.

Remember that incident in New York city when that bastard raped and murdered a woman in public in broad daylight? Groups of people passing by did nothing.I dare say his religion or hers had damn little to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:05 AM

interesting thread.

I think the most interesting aspect is of course Carol's interventions, and how pissed off they have got everybody.

the thing is, that there are all sorts of ghastly things in the old scriptures of every religion. And they seized are upon with relish by the complete bastards (lets refer to them henceforth as nondenominational cb's).

The cb's are always well organised and powerful. Look at their anti-gay lobby within the Christian (and Islamic) religion. Now theres a scripture seized upon with no other aim in view than to inflict misery on some fellow human beings.

I think Carol, you should stand aside. It can only do good that the human beings of the Islamic world see that the cb's have to be faced down for the future of their own religion.

Trying to moderate the resonable anger of the people on mudcat at this outrage - really does take one back to the great days of the IRA bombing campaigns - oh yeh! we blew up a pub full of innocent people! well you did something rotten last week.

there really is no excuse for acting like a twat - sorry a cb.

we have to try harder as a species.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:06 AM

CarolC. Could you make a blue clicky thing to guide us to muslim websites that condemn this latest Islamic attrocity? I have tried to find such sites but have failed.

The Muslim Council of Great Britain are as silent as always on such matters. You can check it out for yourself if you like.

http://www.mcb.org.uk/

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:18 AM

I have already posted a link to a website that lists names of Muslim leaders who speak out against stoning. They are working to get all stoning stopped, not just this one case. And I have already posted information from that website which says that stoning is not in the Koran.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM

Forgot to mention...

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to stand aside. Especially not as long as Muslims have taken on a status of less than human in my own country. In this country, people make death threats against a presidential candidate because they think he is a Muslim. This is unacceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:57 AM

Kitty Genovese, Kendall. I remember it like it was yesterday. She was attacked, knifed, beaten and her screams were ignored. She got away once and rang doorbells but still no one would help or even call the police.


The bible requires stoning. If I remember correctly, Moses had two men stoned to death for gathering wood on the Sabbath.

As I see it, this was not a religious killing. The sheik in power used this girl to tighten his hold on the already terrified population. I would bet that many of the thousand in attendance went home and vomited at the horror and their own inability to stop it. They also prayed to Allah to protect them and their children from a similar fate.

If there is any consolation, he too will die violently.


Where is baby bush on this? Shouldn't we be invading Somalia to protect the people from this dictator? They have oil, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:14 AM

Al Jazeera report of this incident.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/11/2008111201216476354.html

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:21 AM

I see Muslims speaking out against the stoning in the comments section of that Al Jazeera article.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:25 AM

Greg Stephens is right.
This is not my thread title and I resent it being changed to a more inflamatory one. I did not intend it to become a debate on Muslim practices - and I regret, but can not help the fact that it has become one. I would have preferred that issue - or the issues of the way Muslims are seen to have been debated elsewhere.

I was simply stunned by the bestiality of this mob killing. This sort of killing has taken place in most ages in many different societies. The awful fact that it has happened so recently reminds us of the awful potential which lies in this animal, which we call the human being. I would have preferred us to concentrate on that phenomena and how to do something about it.

Nobody wants to use this as a brush to tar all Muslims with. However, if you feel that is an issue, I would be happier if it were debated elsewhere. I would also politely request that my original thread title be restored: "A Story, which beggars belief".

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: GUEST,Bye Bye
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:27 AM

I bet the Provisional IRA did it too Keith, and only for the British army half of the women in Ireland would of had a tear brought to their eye.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:24 AM

When I was supply teaching I met this other supply teacher fershly back from Riyadh and he had just witnessed a stoning. He told the kids and their parents got him sacked. the cb's don't really need ANYONE defending them - they have all the exits covered,

I wonder if Gordon brought the subject up on his recent jaunt, in between begging for loot.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 11:01 AM

The "cb's" don't have anyone defending them. Not in this thread anyway. It's all the innocent Muslims who are not "cb's" who are being defended in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: open mike
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM

how is it that the 3 rapists are not the ones who were stoned here?
That would seem to be the only just solution ... how sad.

and her father tried to help. what a frightening situation when the
only ones you can plea for help are those who caused the harm in the first place.

reading about these killings and mutilations is churning my stomach.
what a vicious world we live in.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:54 PM

The Jews (as a religious community) never accepted Jesus as a true prophet of God and do not include the New Testament in their teachings. Therefore it appears to me that the Jews are the one group among those 3 great religions who could, if they so desired, stone people without clearly violating their own stated religious beliefs and the teachings they claim to follow!

The evolution of Judaic law did not end with the five books of the Torah (or what Christians call the Old Testament). They continued to evolve through the Talmud and through jurisprudence through the centuries.

Stoning, in biblical Judaism, was a punishment carried out in specific circumstances, in a proscribed manner (not by mobs), after an evolved criminal justice process.

Stoning, under any circumstances, was explicitly banned in Jewish law after the destruction of the Second Temple nearly 2,000 years ago.

Little Hawk's statement is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: kendall
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:20 PM

Why couldn't you simply say ,Little Hawk was in error?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:29 PM

Religions do adjust these things, over time. That goes for Islam as well.

As I suggested earlier, in terms of analogies with "Christian" denominations, maybe it's best to see these guys as more or less equivalent to the Aryan Nation.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:18 PM

Why couldn't you simply say ,Little Hawk was in error?

Because his post was perfectly consistent with the traditional anti-Semitism that culminated in the Holocaust (which included the genocidal murder of many of my relatives).

That kind of anti-Semitism is directly predicated on pointing out that Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah or that the New Testament supercedes the Torah.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:45 PM

The problem is not so much about religion as about culture. But it is surely beyond argument that some of the leading religions have contributed to a world in which many cultures treat women as second-class citizens at best. The preachings of St Paul, which resulted ultimately in a Catholic hierarchy from which women are disbarred; the law imposed by America's oil-rich buddy Saudi Arabia whereby women are banned from driving; the unchecked and largely unchallenged cutting off - without anaesthetic - of female genitalia in even relatively developed African states such as Kenya.... All these iniquities contribute to a world in which rape victims are stoned to death.

Without question Islam has a lot to answer for, and artbrooks needs to understand that the Taliban is not one jot less misguided because of what happened in Somalia. What can be said for Islam is that it is not alone. However Carol C's point is perfectly valid: many muslims challenge the extremes of islamic fundamentalism, just as any religion embraces a spectrum of perspectives. For that reason Richard Bridge's point is not quite fair. Few churches (the Catholic church is the obvious exception) can even attempt to speak with one voice. Who speaks for the Jews? Not the JWC, according to very many Jews. Likewise it is impossible for Islam to take a "unanimous" position on anything.

Big Mick's revulsion is fine. But does he really want a thread in which we all try to outdo each other for revulsion? He goes for capital letters, but I could html my words into 144point. Would that make me the winner?

It's not unreasonable for some of us, at least, to dwell a little bit on how such atrocities are possible in the 21st century. And sweeping condemnations of people en masse, 1,000 at a time, really does not help. I do accept that most of those who attended the stoning were there to see what in their view was justice being done, notwithstanding that a protest was violently supressed. The question is, how do entire communities of people descend to such levels of depravity?

It is usually done by intensive conditioning and brainwashing, aimed at instilling an unsahakeable conviction that the victims are sub-human. The Tutus in Rwanda, for instance, were "cockroaches" and this message from the Interhamwe was so incessant and pervasive, blaring out from every radio for many, many weeks, that Hutus actually started to believe the rhetoric. How else were they going to be persuaded to start splitting the heads of their long-term friends and neighbours?

Well, the debasement of women has been going on worldwide for centuries, so we should not wonder if in many cultures some of it sticks.

Oh, and as it is apparently obligatory, let me say for the record that I am sickened beyond words by the Somalia incident.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM

Fair enough, Peter. But I guess I just flat don't understand the detachment from the little girl, to go immediately to something else. As far as I am concerned, this is not about Islam. It is about the death of a little girl. Fundamentalists, of any stripe (religious, political, or anything else that fits) are the problem. I guess my intensity is what causes this, but all I can feel in my mind is the fear and suffering of this little one. It bothers me that the thread has turned into yet another contest for someone to turn from the real issue to their own agenda.

But I note the validity of your comments, and am giving them much thought.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:24 PM

I notice the subject of "agendas" has come up again. Nobody is in any position to tell me what my agenda is. My record is perfectly consistent. I have never participated in public shows of horror, because (as I have said to someone in a PM just now) it feels unseemly to me. It feels a bit vulture like to me, and it feels no more appropriate for me to do that than it would be to brag about giving to charity.

Nobody is in a position to tell me what is in my heart and what I am feeling and anyone who thinks they are in such a position is has a very dark agenda of their own.

I will always speak up when I see hate being spread. Always. If some people don't like that, too bad.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:30 PM

Well said Carol - I don't always agree with your feelings but ....to quote......
I'd rather die for speaking out,
than to live and be silent.
Fan Zhongyan, 988-1052

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old girl stoned to death
From: heric
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:58 PM

The incident is clearly too momentous for any of us to grasp.

We are each of us little Atticus Finch wannabe's, but I do not think that we have the mental ability to put ourselves into that event.

As hard as I try to imagine myself standing firm, I think that maybe I could take a bullet for that little girl. I'm pretty certain that I could not join her in being stoned to death amidst that mob.

Once you have lived in such a moment, whether in horror and failure, or in ignorant, beastly glee– then where would you be – emotionally, morally? Your future conduct and intentions in life? It is incomprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:46 PM

what a bunch of cry-baby bullshit. A little girl DIED! a painful miserable death! SHe did NOTHING WRONG TO DESERVE THIS. End of story! The rest is, in my opinion, pure drivel, and if you find yourself trying to defend the people and if necessary, the culture that performed this heinous act, may God forgive you for your insensitivity. I bet the men who nailed Jesus to the cross wished they had some of you folks defending them! "But they were just following orders!" "At least they didn't use dull nails!" etc. sorry, this makes me sick to my stomach.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:04 PM

The right and wrong of it is black and white, jimmyt. Not a single person would try to defend the people.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:43 PM

No one is defending the people responsible for this - but it's wrong to jump to conclusions about who they were.

What I mean is, it's not clear if it's a case of a brutal regime using terror as a way of maintaining control, or of a fanatical mob.

To take jimmyt's parallel with the Crucifixion, there's a difference between seeing it as the act of a brutal occupying regime, with the collusion of some collaborators, or as the work of "the Jews".

A horrible thing like this killing should provide an occasion for people to come together - the truth is, it is as detestable to Muslims as it is to Christians or Jews or atheists.

But it gets used to divide instead. There are people who would seek to use this horrible murder as a way of generating hatred against Muslims as a whole. Just try hunting around on the Internet and it takes no or than a few seconds to find websites where it is being used in precisely that way.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:07 PM

No one in this thread is defending the people who killed that girl. Anybody who says otherwise is simply lying.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:03 AM

maybe so carol, but I think I would charge you with having a sortt of ferocious illiberality.

This dogged insistence that we are nice guys under the toga. It reminds me of the worst excesses of the 1950's Alphabet of Trades that every schoolkid in those years got issued with. We were assured that little Bombo, the pygmy in the Congo and Tooktu the Eskimo in his igloo and Jock on his sheep farm in Australia, and somebody else picking cocoa beans for cadburys somewhere else - well nothing divided us. We were all brothers.

After an education like that, it was quite a shock when I started teaching in Birmingham in the 1960's to find that a hell of a lot divided us.

And sometimes there are dramatic and monstrous illustrations, like the Rushdie case, and this terrible case.

If you keep on ignoring what is under your nose. Railing against those who do. If you don't take cognizance. One day it will punch you right on the hooter.

'No one in this thread is defending the people who killed that girl.'

No but you sure are getting stuck into the ones who have recoiled in horror and charged them with spreading hate. You have, in short, abused your fellow mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:16 AM

No I haven't.   I said that people shouldn't make assumptions about whether or not Muslim leaders have spoken out against what was done to that 13 year old girl. People invariably make the accusation that Muslims and Muslim leaders don't speak out against the terrible things that some Muslims do, and this is a horrendous libel. And one that has the result of spreading hate.

That some of the people in this thread have chosen to dishonestly try to make what I said into something other than what I said is the real abuse. It always happens that way, not just with this situation. People have so much hatred and prejucice that they have not examined, when someone points out that among the more than a billion Muslims in the world, there are many, many good people, those who hate Muslims transfer that hate onto me. I see it as being no different than being called a "N*gger lover". That is the abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM

AMEN, welittledrummer! my sentiments exactly. I chose to speak in less direct words to Carol, but instead of doing a little introspection, she chose to pm me and spout more venom, questioning the fact that she once thought ,"I was an honest man, but she can now see she was wrong." I really don't care to try to support my honesty in this forum, albiet I think it will stand the test of time quite well. SOrry you apparently have downgraded my stock, Carol, but life goes on... for us. Not the poor little girl that the thread was originally about.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 09:58 AM

The thing that I cannot understand is that this girl was not married and was at school but was found guilty of adultery. Stoning people to death is wrong, whatever the circumstances, but if a country does have laws which allow this then she should not have even been sentenced to it anyway.

Last year a teenage girl was stoned to death by a mob (no court involved) and people filmed it on mobile phones and that again beggars belief.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:26 AM

How do we know that Islamic leaders do not speak out and condemn it? One thing I've definitely noticed about claims like that one is that they are usually not true. Usually Islamic leaders have spoken and continue to speak out against it, but nobody has bothered to notice that they have.


This is what I said. It's right there for anyone to see. People can make up any lies they want, but that doesn't make them true.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:31 AM

I see that someone has chosen to post the contents of a PRIVATE MESSAGE in the open forum.

That says far more about that person than it does about me, and shows that that person has no honor whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:37 AM

I don't think jurisprudence is their strong point.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Where is it written that this is a no no? Is their a code of ethics for this forum that I am not aware of? You said this. All I did was say what you said. If this keeps up I am gonna ask for my classring back! Lighten up, Carol.

If you want to think I am not an honest man, I guess that's ok. It is pretty meritless based on the last couple threads when apparently your opinion of me has dropped. I can live with that. I personally get more out of life trying to make things better one personal contact at a time than continually taking a contrarian approach to anything anyone says. If this makes you happy, go for it. I bet it doesn't though. Have a great day.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:22 AM

Well, I am gonna do it again! I was just told that this the most serious breach of etiquette there is and now no one will ever trust me again. Sorry, Carol, I promise not to violate your silly rule ever again. I can see that this is significant in certain occasions, but again, give me a break! You spend your time on here defending the absolute dregs of society, complaining that life isn't fair, and generally griping about everything and all the sudden, I HAVE DONE THE IMPARDONABLE SIN? If this is the case, and if I am to be chastised by this community for such a petty bit of nothing, then I guess it's time I get the hell out of here, since I don't fit in anyway. I have tried to make friends, I am damn sure I have gone the extra mile time after time trying to find some moderate middle ground to build bridges rather than walls, but honestly I am really getting tired of the whole thing. Don't send me any more PMS, just on the chance I may turn them over to the CIA.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:27 AM

When we do this to people in the USA we do it by military tribunal or political trial.

This fatal flaw in human character is not limited to one race, one nation, one religion, it lurks in every human being deep in the primitive region of our mind which is still as as reptilian aggression.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:44 AM

Who fed you that bizarre alphabet WLD?! I'm afraid the rest of that post lacked your usual coherence, but the broad thrust was clear enough and it was surely based it on some misreadings?

Could you give any examples of CarolC's "ferocious illiberality" in this thread, for instance, or show where she got stuck into anyone for recoiling in horror from the Somalia atrocity? I think when you look you will find that she went only for those who attacked her because she challenged (in perfectly reasonable terms) a sweeping generalisation by Bee.

But what marvellously thought-provoking contributions from jimmyt! By reading between the lines, I begin to see his answer: nuke the muslims!!! Carol C, I'm not here often enough to know what, if anything, lies behind the hostility evident in this thread, but (again) I salute your patience in fending off some woefully misguided criticisms.

[Thanks Big Mick, for tidying up my previous post and for the generous response.]

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:51 AM

Donuel's post reminds me of a perfectly expressed observation that "the line between good and evil runs through the heart of every man."
I have seen those words attributed to Solzhenitsyn, in which case I think they must be from "Full Circle," but I have never tracked them down since seeing the quote used in isolation.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:56 AM

Thank you, Peter, for being able to read between the lines. You have quite an ability. Most people have to actually read words and evaluate, but you, genius, can tell my thoughts simply by reading between the lines. Damn, where can I get this level of training?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:03 PM

Sorry if I got that wrong, jimmyt. Are you going to slap their wrists and tell them not to do it again? But perhaps if you have no interest in how these things happen, you also have no interest in looking for answers? Anyway, do share you thinking, because you've shown no evidence of any thinking so far.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:50 PM

I guess I missed the point. I didn't gather that there was any "thinking" required to just feel for this poor girl, her family, the evil animals that did this, and that is it. No thinking, no solutions obvious or offered. Some things do not have obvious solutions, and except when you read between the lines that I would just nuke the Muslims. Let me know when you get this all worked out.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:00 PM

defending the absolute dregs of society

It read to me as if she was defending ordinary decent Muslims from being blamed for this atrocity, and from the assumption that they are not as appalled and disgusted by it as anyone else.

Often enough when it appears that a terrible crime against some innocent has been carried out by a Black person, or by a Jewish person, this has been used as a way of stirring up hatred and violence against Blacks or Jews in general. And people objecting to that have indeed been accused of having no regard for the original victim, and have been accused of "defending the absolute dregs of society".

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:06 PM

Very sad. A thirteen year old child is first raped then humiliated with accusdations of adultery and then murdered. And this thread has turned into "poor Carol being misunderstood".
Jimmyt - you can't win. Don't even try.
In my experience, the only people who hold sacred the rule of silence on PMs are the ones who insist on spitting rabid venom in them. I have said publicly that I do not choose to abide by this "rule". No where has Max said it is a rule.

As to this thread, re-read Jacqui's post:
"'But an even bigger crime and tragedy is when people generalize the crimes of some people and hold an entire group responsible for them.'

I'm sorry Carol, but you are doing the same thing when you say I wouldn't say nobody listens, but certainly the Muslim-hating West and the perpetrators of crimes like that one do not listen.. I am part of the west but I don't hate Muslims and nor do the majority of the people that I know. I hate injustice and cruelty wherever it arises and wish that I had the courage to do more than just feel dismayed when things like this happen."

Whine all you want, Carol. No one is blaming Muslims for this atrocity. The thugs who committed it are at fault. That is the theme through this entire thread.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

No one is blaming Muslims for this atrocity.

I'm afraid that if you just hunt around for a few minutes on the Internet you will indeed find people who go in doing for exactly that, and who are using this story in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:13 PM

No one on this thread is holding the Muslim religion responsible for this atrocity. Search hard enough on the web and you will find someone blaming Barack Obama and Elvis.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: heric
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM

I wish I could stop thinking about this. One thing: regardless of the crowd's level of fear or approval at the event – everyone there has a permanent stain on his or her soul. The instigators, participants and spectators, regardless of their level of participation, have had their very humanity maimed, permanently. They are all guilty.

But who among us could actually have walked away from there morally pure and ethically solid. (Or would have died there with integrity.)

You can try to view it walking in as you are now – with the morals and principles you have been raised into – or as a person raised in a failed and lawless state, where your life plan has been focused on avoiding death by starvation or violence. I don't mention this as mitigation in any way.

It's just that, as an armchair pontificator, a comfortable person with the highest regard for my own ethical integrity, I come away from this mental exercise with personal shame. I hate it.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 02:02 PM

Every kid in school got a copy of the British Trades Alphabet and you wrote off to Cadburys and Kodak, and people who made jam and they sent brochures and we did projects on them. Text books were usually pre war and old and new stuff was rare after the war. Australia was a great favourite - cos the one about sheep farming had a chunk of sheeps wool on the cover. There was only one of them. Really rich companies sent every kid a brochure.

The subtext was that these people may live in mud huts, but they are all our mates - just like us!

And to be honest yes - I did get echoes of this cultural naivety in Carol's comments. Its all a question of emphasis and the wicked twisters of our words. No its not.

If you knew a family where these things were going on - well what would you think? The point is that you WOULD think. You would be rocked back on your heels like some quite nice people were here.

And they got told. Well your gang does bad things and you say nowt. You have no right to articulate your shock and horror. You are not even handed. You are unfair. A promoter of hate even. In your own words, someone who would nuke 'em soon as look at 'em.

These are vile charges to lay at anyone's door. And in most cases, you know most of these people as decent types of humanity. So why say these terrible things?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:18 PM

Here's the "rabid venom" I spewed in two PMs at the person who posts the contents of PMs in the open forum...


"NOBODY in that thread is defending the people who killed that girl!

NOBODY!!!!!!!"

-and-

"I used to think you were an honet man. Now I see that you are anything but."


People can judge for themselves just how rabid and venomous my PMs were, and whether or not the person who posted part of them is an honest person or a liar.


Incidentally, it was the head of the Mudcat Moderators who told me that it is a serious breach of Mudcat etiquette to post the contents of PMs in the open forum.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:21 PM

By they way, I also said in a subsequent PM (just in case that person decides to post yet more of my PMs), that now that they have posted the contents of PMs in the open forum, everyone in the Mudcat could now see that this person cannot be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:23 PM

Does anyone want to get back to the topic of the thread or are we past that now?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM

My initial post in this thread was in response to a point made in the fourth post from the top. In that post the person said that Islam was in part to blame for what happened, because Islamic leaders do not speak out against it.

This is the point I was addressing. It is a horrendous libel so say things like that because it is simply not true.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:30 PM

jimmyt is a long time member of this forum, He is respected and loved for his sense of humor and even handed demeanor especially when things get tense.

Personal attacks and name calling are not his calling card.

Once again, I suggest that the emphasis of this this thread go back to the victim of this horrendous crime.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:30 PM

Certainly not all Westerners hate Muslims. But hatred of Muslims has become institutionalized in the West, and that is what I mean when I say "the Muslim hating West".

If people are finished projecting their own inner garbage onto me, I certainly have no problem with the thread getting back to its subject.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:32 PM

Once again, I suggest that the emphasis of this this thread go back to the victim of this horrendous crime.

Which has been my point from the beginning.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:36 PM

I've been here even longer than the person who posted those PMs, so I am very familiar with their history. I used to hold this person in very high regard. This person has proven to me that my regard was entirely misplaced. I don't regard the person who is sticking up for this individual as any kind of authority figure, so what they have to say about me goes in the circular file where it belongs.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:37 PM

"This is the point I was addressing. It is a horrendous libel so say things like that because it is simply not true. "

It is Bee's opinion. Yours that the West is Muslim-hating,in my opinion, is also a libel. But I and others here do not choose to rant, rave, accuse, and in short, make a scene. To my knowledge no one else has felt the need to send angry PMs.

Why not simply discuss the issue rather than resort to high drama and name calling?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:41 PM

Never pays to generalise, does it folks?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:44 PM

Does anyone want to get back to the topic of the thread or are we past that now?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:57 PM

It's not a generalization to say that there is an entrenched and institutionalized hatred of Muslims in the West. That is simply a statement of reality. The fact that the Western media refuses to report when Muslims speak out against atrocities committed by other Muslims is more than ample proof of this. As is the fact that a large percentage of the people in the US regard all Muslims as being terrorists. This is an image of Muslims that has been carefully nurtured by the US government to make it easier for them to sell their preemptive war agenda to the people of this country. Governments of other Western countries (not all of them) have been cultivating the same image among their own populations.

The fact that people in the West would make death threats against Barack Obama because they believe he is a Muslim, and therefore a terrorist is a direct outgrowth of this institutionalized hatred. It's there, it's real, and it's something that has been deliberately nurtured by authorities for the purpose of promoting their agenda in the Middle East.

It may be someone's opinion that Muslim leaders don't speak out against things like this stoning, but it happens to not be the truth. And it's a libel. Some people have the opinion that all Black people are shiftless, or that all Jews are greedy. When we see people expressing those opinions, we should speak out about it. It's no different with the stereotype that Muslims don't speak out about bad things done by other Muslims. None of these stereotypes is right and none of them should be allowed to pass by without being challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM

I would like to do that and say that I am trying to understand this catastrophe. I don't believe any of us here begrudge Carol a platform for her views, but I would be happier if the issues she has raised could be discussed on another thread (perhaps linked to this one) from now on.

Peter K. has stated as eloquently as ever what I did not quite manage to put into words:

"It's not unreasonable for some of us, at least, to dwell a little bit on how such atrocities are possible in the 21st century. And sweeping condemnations of people en masse, 1,000 at a time, really does not help. I do accept that most of those who attended the stoning were there to see what in their view was justice being done, notwithstanding that a protest was violently supressed. The question is, how do entire communities of people descend to such levels of depravity?"

That's a question worth answering.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:05 PM

I should also add that my previous post was a response to the one before Carol's last post. It would also appear that my desire to return to the original topic has been determinedly thwarted...

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: paula t
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:11 PM

As the mother of a lovely 13 year old girl , I find this absolutely unbearable.Every time I think about it I see my daughter's face and it fills me with a physical, painful grief.
This has nothing to do with Islam. This is a regime ruling by fear - and similar things are happening all over the world . The thought of the pain and fear suffered by that little girl -first by being raped by those "men" and then the "trial" by those criminals is something I can't put out of my mind.

Rest in peace sweetheart.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:14 PM

CarolC,
I will presume you have no problem with the following statemnets, then:




Hatred of the West has become institutionalized in Moslim countries, and that is what I mean when I say "the West-hating Moslims".

It's not a generalization to say that there is an entrenched and institutionalized hatred of the West in Moslim Countries. That is simply a statement of reality. The fact that the Islamic media refuses to report when the Western nations speak out against atrocities committed by other Western countries is more than ample proof of this. As is the fact that a large percentage of the people in the Moslim countries regard all Westerners as being terrorists. This is an image of the West that has been carefully nurtured by the Islamic governments to make it easier for them to sell their preemptive war agenda to the people of their countries. Governments of other Moslim countries (not all of them) have been cultivating the same image among their own populations.



NOTHING stated above is any more general, or more hate-spewing than your comments.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:17 PM

I can see that a punch up is in the offing here. Could you please do it through PMs or on another thread?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: heric
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:30 PM

Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow, a child.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:37 PM

I will, however respond to that last one, so it can be done with. Yes, there is institutionalized hatred of the West in some Muslim countries (not all of them). They come by it honestly, though. We've been interfering in their lives and their countries for a long time. They didn't have such an institutionalized hatred of the West before we started doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:38 PM

And now, if people are finished attacking me, I hope the thread will get back to its subject.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:38 PM

Well yes, I'm afraid so, alanabit. I am simply amazed that a perfectly fair point made by Carol C could have generated such animosity. Clearly the reaction is based on something outside this thread and therefore amounts to prejudice in its most literal sense.

Sinsull blithely assures us that "no one on this thread is holding the Muslim religion responsible for this atrocity" and this is allowed to slide by without challenge. For those such as Sinsull who either cannot read or who turn a blind eye when convenient, here is the statement to which Carol C was responding (and yes, it's from this very thread, Sinsull): "But Islam bears some of the blame here, because Islamic religious leaders do not speak out and condemn it."

Whether Sinsull and some of the other Carol C bashers like it or not, some Islamic leaders DO condemn outrages such as the one in Somalia. And because Carol C said so, there is an immediate assumption in some quarters that she condones such outrages. Has Mudcat really sunk this low?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Maryrrf
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:43 PM

This thread is a prime example of why it is so difficult to have a thoughtful, amicable discussion on Mudcat. Yes I think some people are using this thread as a platform because views are being stated, restated, belabored, and rehashed to the point where it's difficult to follow, comment and respond to some of the valid and thought provokng views that have been expressed by some of the posters. I don't think this thread as it has developed was what Alanabit had in mind when he posted, and it's a shame so many threads seem to deteriorate on Mudcat. There are some great intellects on this forum, and some posters who invariably throw a welcome dose of common sense into any discussion. Some of these people have posted on this thread. It just takes too much patience to wade through all the arguing and posturing, so I'm sure many have decided not to participate.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:14 PM

"I do accept that most of those who attended the stoning were there to see what in their view was justice being done."

That may be true or it may not be true in this case, we just do not have the information to know.

However it is also true is that there are indeed times when there is a social acceptance and approval of atrocities, whether on the local scale of lynchings in ordinary American towns at one time, or on the national scale of Nazi Germany, or in societies where public executions of "moral offenders" are carried out with official approval.

And there are many many examples of those kind of things happening in all kinds of societies around the world, throughout the course of history.

The question in such cases is the one Peter K asked - "how do entire communities of people descend to such levels of depravity?" And it is one about which I too would like to see a serious discussion here.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:17 PM

And so says one of the many, Maryrrf. Thank you.
Joy

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:49 PM

Here is Another Version of the Story that gives more of a sense of what might have happened.

Sharia Law requires either three eye witnesses, or three consecutive confessions before adultery can be established. Generally, it's pretty hard to prove, and no one really wants to--as you can see from the article, they tried pretty hard to get her to "review", or recant her confession.

We don't know what really happened, apart from these two articles, but between the two, they tell a terrible story--

A young girl is raped, which has e even worse social stigma attached to it in a tribal/fundamentalist society than in our own.

She goes to make a complaint with the Militia, who don't want to hear it. In despair/anger/desperation, she demands to be heard by the Sharia Court, where she demands that her "confession" that she had sexual relations with the rapists.

In spite of repeated entreaties, she repeats her "confession" until the requirements for conviction are satisfied, at which point, as repulsive as it may be, the law must be followed, and the seldom administered punishment must be carried out.

As required by law, the stoning is to be carried out before witnesses in the public square.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 12:04 AM

The stoners lack the skill to kill the child on their first attempt, and are compelled to try again. Some in the crowd are so horrified by what transpires that they attempt to stop it, and the militia are forced to fire upon them to restore order, killing a witness, and likely wounding others.

In the end a horrible miscarriage of justice that violates all who are involved.

It is easy, and tempting, to believe that this terrible event was the product of an exotic, primitive culture and religion. We blame it on the weaknesses of a society that is seemingly alien to our own, and don't to see that the the failings that caused it are really inherent in all societies.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 12:25 AM

here's another:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LS38222.htm

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 12:54 AM

Thank-you Ted for a worthy response, which has added both information and ideas to the discussion. I will be back to check out your links when I return from teaching later.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:35 AM

Fully agree with M.Ted in response to Kevin's last question. I have always maintained that the veneer of civilisation is only skin deep, and the animal in all of us lives just below the surface. In times of stress or serious risk of losing advantage, position, wealth or life, the animal surface pretty quickly. It did so in the old Yugoslavia asit started breaking up. It did so in Iraq time and again. It did in Greece in 1945-47 (civil war). It did in Northern Ireland and Britain (though in this case involving individuals rather than crowds). And before that in so many places, Germany, France, Turkey (ask the Armenians), the US in the 60s... And it did in Georgia & South Ossetia.

We are capable of reaching great heights, and at the same time easily led to the most bestial behaviour. I cannot rationalise or explain it, it seems to be part of the human makeup.

And I believe that anyone who thinks themselves impervious to all this and above such behaviour in all circumstances, are simply fooling themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:14 AM

I read an article yesterday which explained why some people watch stonings but I just cannot find it again to post a link. I won't try to remember everything that was said but there were several reasons given. Some people are actually forced to watch and some people do so out of fear.

Like heric I find that I cannot stop thinking about this. Imagine if you were forced to watch it. In some cases the children of the person being stoned are forced to watch it.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM

And I believe that anyone who thinks themselves impervious to all this and above such behaviour in all circumstances, are simply fooling themselves.

Exactly so, George Papavgeris - troubling though that truth is.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:29 AM

'there is institutionalized hatred of the West in some Muslim countries (not all of them). They come by it honestly, though'.

Great to know that all those people dancing in the street, having a knees up on the strength of 9/11 came upon their harmless sense of fun 'by honest means'.

You know that schtick about 'blessed are the peacemakers' - I think Jesus realised it was rare talent. And Carol, I think you'd better try for being the meek, or maybe being the children of god. Your attempts at laying the foundations for a peace process and greater understanding between cultures - well they're quite incendiary in character! You could start a fight in an empty house.

best wishes (and failing to suppress a smile)

al

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:37 AM

I notice someone has decided to not discuss the subject of the thread.

I guess their sense of fun was equally matched (or perhaps exceeded) by all of the people I heard or read in the West who gleefully said about Afghanistan and Iraq (and also Iran), "turn the country into a parking lot", and "nuke them back into the stone age". The thing about those people who were supposedly celebrating on 9/11 is that the people who we are told were celebrating had been living under military occupation for several generations. On the other hand, there is some evidence that that never really happened.

Sometimes the truth is incendiary. But that's no reason to try to hide it or pretend it doesn't exist.

The thing about being meek is that it doesn't suppose it self to be more human than other people. So I would turn that one around and say it to those who think that Muslims are inherently less human than other people, or inherently more evil.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:53 AM

Forgot part of what I was going to say...

"The thing about those people who were supposedly celebrating on 9/11 is that the people who we are told were celebrating had been living under military occupation for several generations."

A military occupation, incidentally, that was paid for by the US, and enforced by the US in the UN. Those people, of all people, come by their anger and hatred honestly.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:25 AM

WLD, I remember meeting some old folk in Bethnal Green who admitted they had cheered when Bomber Command reduced Dresden to a fireball, against which 9/11 would barely have registered on the catastrophe scale. It took them several years to see it differently.

I remember the former US attorney general Ramsay Clark recalling some Americans who had reacted similarly to the nuking of Hiroshima. It was only after publication of John Hersey's famous account, run across a whole issue of the New Yorker in August 1946, that they could see the carnage from a victim perspective. (Even so someone responded to the New Yorker with a letter saying "Great, now let's drop 20 more on Moscow.")

Incidentally, those here who think a public wringing of hands in anguish is a prerequisite for saying anything in this thread should read Hersey's account. He reports the experiences of six survivors in clinical detail without once displaying the slightest hint of his own emotions. It was not necessary. And maybe that is why what he did stands as just about the most effective piece of journalism published in the states in a hundred years.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:32 AM

Well of course you're absolutely right Carol and Peter.

However I just don't feel you have the lightness of touch and gentleness of disposition to stand up as the arbiter in these matters.

You don't know who these people are that you are railing at. You don't know the circumstances of their lives and how it may effect them

All you know is that they did not attack you first. They did not shout your faults in shrill language.

I think you could have expressed reservations about their point of view in a nicer manner.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 02:28 PM

It's pretty dishonest to characterize my initial post in the terms described above. I will post it again, to refresh someone's memory...

Subject: RE: BS: A Story That Beggars Belief
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:26 AM

How do we know that Islamic leaders do not speak out and condemn it? One thing I've definitely noticed about claims like that one is that they are usually not true. Usually Islamic leaders have spoken and continue to speak out against it, but nobody has bothered to notice that they have.


As we can clearly see, I did not attack anyone or shout all of anyone's faults in shrill language. I did respond to quite a few attacks on me later on, however. And it appears that I am still responding to attacks from someone who would apparently rather discuss me than the subject of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:08 PM

I agree with George that people who think themselves "impervious to all this and above such behaviour in all circumstances, are simply fooling themselves".

We have no right to assume that somehow we will be among the brave minority that stands out against this kind of thing, and that ought to be reflected in the way we react. In what is in this case the sadly appropriate language of the Gospels, we shouldn't feel entitled to cast the first stone. That doesn't in any way mean we shouldn't feel and express our detestation of what has been done. But when we see those photos of lynch-mobs, or cheering Nazis, for example, or read a story like this one, we should recognise ourselves as possible members of the crowd.

But nor should we ever forget that there are people who do stand out against the descent into inhumanity, even in the most desperate circumstances, as seems to have been the case here as well.

It occurs me that I'd like to know more about whether there are common factors in the previous lives of the people who make up that "saving minority" in the times when the community goes insane. Any pointers to studies about that kind of thing?

I think that one of the ways in which we risk reducing the hope that we might be such a person, if we find ourselves in this kind of situation, is when we go in for the kind of fantasy violence and hate that Carol quoted there - "turn the country into a parking lot", and "nuke them back into the stone age".

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM

Look, I've never had the slightest problem with jimmyt, but I think we need to consider something he wrote:

"if you find yourself trying to defend the people and if necessary, the culture that performed this heinous act, may God forgive you for your insensitivity."

The very assumption that a "culture" committed this crime is exactly the attitude that had earlier set Carol off, and I don't blame her. If many of us are automatically assuming that such an assertion makes any sense at all, we need to stop and think about ourselves and our unconscious assumptions and prejudices.

After all, the primary victim here, as well as the boy who died trying to defend her, the other bystanders who were injured and killed, and all the horified citizens who were forced to watch ~ they were very probably all Muslims, too. Right?

Actually, there probably is some reason to find fault with the culture of certain areas of the globe ~ more justifiably than blaming the Muslim religion.

The murderously misogynist bent of some tribal/national groups is ancient and deeply ingrained, and certainly predates the birth of Mohammed; if the history of Islam includes a tolerance for stonings and other such abominations, it's because the people who founded Islam, and those who were among its first adherents, were already throroughly conditioned to accept such acts and attitudes as a matter of course.

It was individuals who carried out this horrendous act; members of a gang or ruling clique, not representatives of an entire religion or nationality. If anyone needs to assign blame to a group or class of people, blame it on "power-hungry bloodthirsty warlords," not on "Muslims" or "Africans" or "Somalis."

If anyone is offended that I've been moved to discuss the secondary issue into which this discussion has devolved, and not limited myself to commiserating with the victim, please don't dismiss my thoughts as irrelvant just because you judge me as somehow not as sensitive as you are. Of course, I'm horrified and I condemn this brutal murder; I just find it more interesting and more necessary to weigh in on this other issue.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: jimmyt
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:43 PM

Point taken, poppa gator I, as others, had gottne myself into a state of emotion and sometimes at least for me, it is hard to be absolutely objective when emotion is driving the bus. I appreciate your gentle nudge.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:42 AM

I have no problem with that either, because it is directly related to this thread's main subject. The subject of how the West relates to Islam in general - although worthy - is what I wanted to see discussed elsewhere. A post like PoppaGator's - or the posts from McGrath and Peter K are throwing some light onto this episode for me - and others I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:55 AM

Some people tried to express their horror a terrible incident.

They chose ill advised words.

In turn they were accused of insincere 'hand wringing', and abuse of all Muslims.

I think you have to make allowances for when people are upset - they don't say the right things. We got used to all kinds of bitter things being said about us, the English; when the crisis in Northern Ireland was at its height. And we got used to bitter words condemning both Unionist and Republican positions.

Bitter words aren't helpful - that simple.

They're always part of the problem and nothing to do with the solution. And worst of all bitter words are fatally easy rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:25 AM

I did not accuse anyone of insincere hand wringing (although I expected that I would be). I was accused of being heartless because I didn't participate in the public display of emotion. I was pressed by several people on this. I gave my reason for not participating in that. I was the one who was being judged. I did not judge anyone else. If other people want to participate in public displays of emotion, that's their business, but don't judge me if I don't do it that way.

My entire point was that people shouldn't assume that Muslims haven't spoken out about what happened to this girl. But other people needed to project their own garbage on me and they made this thread about me instead of the actual subject of the thread. I did not judge anyone. I pointed out that we shouldn't assume that Muslims don't speak out, and I was viciously attacked by several people.


I see that what the thread originator had in mind was for people to discuss how the West relates to Islam in general. I find that ironic seeing as how that's precisely what my posts in this thread have been about, and yet my posts have been deemed unacceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:34 AM

It should be pointed out that one of my early posts in this thread was a response to things that were said in a post that was deleted by the person who made the post after I posted my rebuttal. It was a personal attack and a very judgemental one. My post should be understood in that light.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:50 AM

I see that what the thread originator had in mind was for people to discuss how the West relates to Islam in general.

Read what he said again, Carol - which is that that wasn't what he had in mind for this thread, but rather saw it as something to talk about outside the immediate context of this particular killing. Not that the person starting a thread owns it - discussions go where they will - but I agree with alanabit's feeling that this terrible episode can help us explore the wider issue of societies losing their humanity.

The way this thread has gone at times rather reinforces that. Too much heat, not enough light.
...........................

I think there are four key elements that contribute of collective breakdown of humanity, and to people who may be basically decent enough as individuals colluding in, or taking an active part in terrible events.

One is a thing which in many ways is a good thing - when we find ourselves part of a community with a common purpose and a common understanding of the world, that is an exhilarating experience. This week we have observed that and many of us have experienced that, in the context of Barack Obama's victory. But like any good thing it can be twisted into bad uses. A joyful crowd can turn into a vengeful mob so easily.

A second key element is when a group of people - a family, a neighbourhood, a nation - feels itself somehow collectively threatened in some way. Sometime that threat can be a real threat and a collective response is appropriate - but once again it can become twisted, and give rise to terrible things.

And a third key element is personal fear - the fear of being out of step with those around us, ranging from fear of embarrassment up to fear of physical danger. And that can lead people to go along with things that they know are wrong.

And a fourth element is our ability to persuade ourselves that what we do is the right thing to do. We can suppress our revulsion at what we are doing. and even throw ourselves into it more actively as a reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:52 AM

My mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:02 AM

Does society lose humanity?

Or is it part and parcel of the human condition to be cruel, sadistic even?

Personally I think maybe it is, although it is something we need to suppress.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:05 AM

Nicely put Kevin - in every day life it is possible to see this. It is so much easier to go along with the crowd. I've seen cases where a manager in the office was openly derisive of one of his staff and the majority of the rest took his lead. Standing up to that is frightening, and there was no physical threat involved in those situations.

I was always on the outside because I wasn't interested in sport or the TV soaps and said so. That can occasionally be a lonely place and not too comfortable. Think how it would be in a situation such as a dictatorship or a fundamentalist society, where swimming against the stream could endanger your and your family's life.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:59 AM

My mistake.

Not really - the diversion started with "But Islam bears some of the blame here, because Islamic religious leaders do not speak out and condemn it." Which prompted Carol, reasonably enough, to question that assumption.
..........................
Sometimes its harder to stand out against small things than against big things. Outright bigotry or brutality has to be built up to in order to be accepted as the norm. Jokes about "PC" can be a good way of doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:23 AM

I meant 'my mistake' about misreading what thread originator said - the part about this thread not being about how the West relates to Islam. I don't for a minute think there was anything wrong with my pointing out what I did about the idea that Muslims don't speak out against these kinds of things, I have no regrets for having posted what I did about that, and I will continue to point out those kinds of things when I see them.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 11:18 AM

FWIW, Muslim leaders have spoken out quite publically just yesterday. Perhaps (unfortunately) not directly about this horrific incident in Somalia, but certainly about human rights and dignity, protection of minorities, and a host of other issues. The joint Catholic-Muslim Declaration that follows a three day meeting between Catholic and Muslim leaders at the Vatican, can be read here:

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=13687&theme=2&size=A

This historic meeting has gotten just about zero mention in the USA press that I typically read. Note where you must go to read anything about it.

I did hear a snippet (on NPR) of a statment by one of the Imams who attended, which specifically denounced "terrorism" and "oppression of women". I would love to find a transcript or audio of the whole bit.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 11:23 AM

Got it. Audio link is here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96735197

Specifically addresses terrorism and violence in the name of God.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:32 PM

Here is the text of "The Catholic-Muslim Joint Declaration."

Here is the website of A Common Word, a document put together by "138 Muslim scholars, clerics and intellectuals (who) have unanimously come together for the first time since the days of the Prophet to declare the common ground between Christianity and Islam." This was part of the preparation for the Catholic-Muslim Joint Declaration.

And here is the official website of "The Amman Message" which addresses a range of issues, and helped prepare the way for A Common Word.

Long complicated documents. But before making of the cuff accusations about how Muslims have failed to speak up when they should it would be advisabkle to read them attentively.

This is all drifting away from wider questions about humanity and inhumanity, but it seemed to me this would be a good place to stash the links for any discussion about Islam as such.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:38 PM

Thanks TIA. As someone who was a virulent critic of Ratzinger during his many years in charge of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (successor body to the inquisition) I have to say he has surprised me several times since becoming the boss - not least in this initiative to improve relations with Islam.

It's a difficult thing to do, because there is no central authority on the muslim side that can speak for the whole of that religion. In this case the Vatican has been in discussion with the 138 muslim scholars who challenged him some time ago. But at least when mighty religions like these come face to face there is the always the possibility that they will begin to see merit in opposing positions and that the zealots on both sides will be undermined by consensus and compromise.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:13 PM

I have on occasion, looked into the eyes of some of my fellow "Westerners", and, also on occasion, have seen a brutal, simmering rage. In a few instances, I have seen it explode, and have heard of it exploding in many more instances.

For this reason, I am not surprised when I hear that a man has been dragged to death behind a truck because of his sexual orientation. I am not surprised when a teenage girl lures a boy to a secluded place by promising to have sex with him, then watches while her friends beat him to death with hammers and a hatchet. And I am not surprised when I read the our history of brutal lynchings, some more horrible than the stoning in question here.

I tend to cry when I hear about suffering. As a scrupulous student of history, I have shed tears, at one time or another, for people in every historical age, and in every part of the world. And will likely continue to do so.

I wonder about those of you who seem to angered, shocked, outraged, though, because, as literate, educated adults, none of this should be new to you--

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:26 PM

A good percentage of people above are blurring rage with the philosophy of law, when the two concepts should be separated by a wide chasm.


Rage may be endemic to the human condition, but legal philosophy is highly reflective of a culture.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:54 AM

Your point is taken Ted. But surely it is necessary is to ask ourselves: "In what conditions are these outbreaks of simmering rage less likely to explode?" We are all opponents of war, cruelty, violence, rape and injustice etc. We also know that these things have been around for as long as there have been humans. However, at certain times and under certain conditions, they have become the norm. Under others, they have become the exception. We should at least be trying to identify what makes these catastrophes less likely.
I don't think it is wildly inaccurate to suggest that we hear of these sort of outbreaks less frequently from Norway than we do from Somalia. There must be a reason for that.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:08 AM

Alan, if we re-phrase your last line into
"I don't think it is wildly inaccurate to suggest that we hear of these sort of outbreaks less frequently from Turkey (or Egypt, the Emirates etc) than we do from Somalia. There must be a reason for that."
then it takes religion out of the equation altogether, and we can focus on the other parameters.

I don't know the answer of course, but I am guessing that it lies in a multiplicity of parameters, though one might reasonably group them into the following, beginning with the individual "potential perpetrator" of such an act, and the various effects on him/her from:

a) The collection of interests,pressures or causes leading one to rage (examples: insulting one's family, one's belief in a system to live by, threat to personal well-being etc)
b) The collection of inhibitors instilled into one by parental (and other) teaching, societal impact on an individual's beliefs, education, fear of repercussion etc
c) The individual's beliefs regarding the sanctity of life, both one's own and everyone else's; by extension also the individual's belief in various human rights.
d) The individual's thresholds within which the above three operate.
e) The impact on all of the above by mob mentality.

Looking at the list above, it's one hell of a recipe to get right - and many ways to get it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 07:23 AM

I have no problem with any of that George. And indeed, I am more than happy to get religion out of the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 07:34 AM

I think, to the above list, needs to be added resources. A lot of the strife that results in a breakdown of societal structures and societal norms in places like Somalia (and Sudan, Congo, Iraq, etc.) arises out of a competition for valuable resources.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:07 AM

One thing I find quite striking, and it's something that I've only just now become aware of myself, is that while the whole world now knows about the stoning of this 13 year old girl, people in the US are largely unaware that in 2007, the US government sponsored (using the Ethiopian government and military as proxies) a war on Somalia that resulted in the deaths of more Somalis than were killed in Lebanon during the recent war there. Here is some background...

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/15479

How is it that our media is effective enough to be able to make sure the world is aware of the stoning, while neglecting to inform us of the US government's involvement in an invasion and occupation of Somalia by Ethiopia, resulting in the deaths (and also torture and rape) of thousands of civilians? And why do we stand for it?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:56 AM

Since I read the "main stream media" almost constantly (the AP feed, cnn.com and abcnews.go.com), I was very aware of the Ethiopian incursion into Somalia in 2006 and 2007. I don't watch television and our local newspaper doesn't do much with international news, go I really can't speak about other potential sources.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:01 AM

Yes, I'm sure many people were aware of the Ethiopian incursion, but I don't think most people are aware of the US involvement and backing of that incursion. Which was my point.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 11:23 AM

..... and the agenda driven folks win again. This thread has completely drifted away from the little girl. Nice job. You are a pro at hijacking, I will give you that. As for me, I remain outraged that these crude thugs have gotten away with murder. And I find anyone that defends the "law" under which this is justified to be the worst examples of humanity extant. I am not suggesting anyone here justifies it, but anyone who does not has chosen to abet it by not denouncing the act for what it is.

And mourning the cruelty of the act, once it is brought to our attention, as well as public pronouncement of sorrow for the little lost one, is not inappropriate. It is the most appropriate thing to do.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM

I wonder about those of you who seem to angered, shocked, outraged, though, because, as literate, educated adults, none of this should be new to you--

OK, so we've heard before it in many forms, involving many different countries, religions etc. That doesn't make it any less sickening when it happens again and, IMHO, if we stop being angered, shocked and outraged we have lost an essential part of our own humanity.

We need to continue to feel those emotions and maybe, one day, one or more of us may get to the point of saying 'enough'.

And then, maybe, we might try to make a difference.

Right now I feel a little bit guilty that there are people suffering this type of abomination and I'm not doing anything to stop it.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: heric
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 02:55 PM

This story does not involve rage. It involves the application of justice.

I believe that some people are trying to restore or acknowledge the basic human dignity of the people involved in this event, pointing out that humans end up in such situations, not just some humans in some places. That is fine, and I agree with that. These people do live in a failed state. But the attempts so far are based on a false premise: Rage.

This was a calculated punishment by the authorities, such as they are, and they justified what they were doing as correct and just, to media representatives.

No matter how much I have read, or been aware of other human atrocities, this type of event has distinguishing characteristics. When my parents took me to a stadium, we watched people playing baseball. Trying to articulate the meaning of this event leads to classic, extreme cognitive dissonance:

"Happens all over." "Take religion out of it." " . . . lynchings." " . . . . Nazis."   "American government . . . ."

Back to the beginning: I do not think we have the capacity or imagination to put ourselves into that event.

We do have the power of UN intervention in a failed state.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:32 PM

Clearly there is at least one evilminded person in the Mudcqat who is disposed to ALWAYS assume the worst about me, for some reason that I really can't comprehend, without EVER bothering to find out if their nasty, evilminded, dirty assumptions have any basis whatever in reality.

I don't know why this person has this vendetta that they feel they need to wage against me, but as I've said before, it says far more about them then it does about me.

Someone without such a dirty, nasty, evilminded agenda, might have realized that my post is entirely in keeping with what is being discussed in this thread, and it is entirely reasonable for me to have said what I did in keeping with the discussion.

For those who don't have dirty, nasty, evilminded agendas and personal vendettas against me, they won't have any trouble understanding why what I posted is appropriate to the discussion. For those who do, I will explain.

We have been discussing (at the request of the thread originator) how societies and groups of people can get to the point where they allow horrible things to be done in their midst, or in their names. We can look at our own society if we want to find answers to how this can happen. How does our government (those of us in the US) get away with doing things like what it did with the Ethiopians in Somalia? How do we get to the point where things like that happen, and the people of the country don't even know it's being done (by our government)? And when we do know about it, how is our government able to continue doing those things without being stopped by us?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:37 PM

I don't think that this story involves justice. It concerns the lowest type of human behaviour rationalised as justice. It is very human to rationalise all kinds of cruelty as being "justice" or "in the interests of the rest of society" or whatever. It is particularly likely to happen when we ignore our natural compassion and kindness and suppress it in favour of bogus "morality". And yes, I agree that it is far more likely to happen in a failed state.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:39 PM

On the subject of UN intervention in a failed state, I think that the first thing we (the US) needs to do is to stop doing things that have the result of destabilizing the country. What is happening in Somalia is a resource war. We are competing with other powers for the resources in that country, and we are contributing to the destabilization there in our efforts to gain control of the resources. Just as we have done and continue to do in other countries. As long as we continue to do this, the UN hasn't got a chance at any kind of intervention.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: pdq
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:05 PM

"We do have the power of UN intervention in a failed state."

Please cite even one good example. Asking the United States to do the work and bear the cost, in money and lives, does not count as a UN intervention, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:28 PM

I agree that it wasn't an attempt at "justice".   The minimum standards for justice under Sharia law were not met. There weren't enough witnesses, and the men involved were not punished. From what I've been reading, there was a more moderate Islamic group who were keeping things under control there until the US bombed that area, after which the people who control the area now took over. Apparently, the previous group were tolerated by the local people because they were perceived to be better than the chaos that existed there before that. Sounds just like how the Taliban came to power in Afghanistan. But this new group apparently doesn't have the support of the local people, so they have to resort to brutal shows of force in order to get people to submit to their "authority". I think the stoning was one such show of force.

Another thing that complicates the situation is that the rebels are perceived to be fighting an occupation. The Somalis don't like being under Ethiopian occupation, so much of the conflict at the present time is an effort to eject the occupation. This makes it difficult to stop people from providing the rebels with various kinds of support.

I think one of the worst parts of the dilemma the local people face is that they either have to resign themselves to being tortured, raped, and killed by the Ethiopian occupiers, or they have to submit to being tortured, raped and killed by the rebels who are trying to eject the Ethiopians. They're in an impossible situation.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM

All right, then. You seem to be assembling a mountain of facts suggestive of what McGrath speculated upon from the outset: An extreme abuse of power being used to intimidate and subjugate the civilians. (This was also the scenario in the Kite Runner, for its fictionalized stadium stoning.)

The facts are extremely hard to come by. I have no idea where you got yours, but they are certainly plausible.




(pdq I couldn't begin to guess at how international geopolitics is really played. I was just thinking that if people were looking to solutions and prevention, that was the only theoretical start I could come up with.)

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:50 PM

"far more likely to happen in a failed state.

I'm not sure if that is true. Hitler's Germany and Pol Pot's Cambodia were not failed states, in the sense that far from being places where there had been a breakdown of all central authority, the centre was very much in command.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:01 PM

Somewhere in all this we perhaps need to reflect that different cultures are at different points along the "civilisation" curve. Three centuries ago there were public executions in Britain. Four centuries ago people were taken down from the gallows while still fully conscious, diesmbowelled and quartered. About 150 years ago Dickens described public executions in the states and how blacks were beaten and tormented in ways that no self-respecting individual in the US now would ever treat an animal. He was accustomed to different values.

Barbaric lynchings were still rife in some American states when the US in most other respects had reached a level of civilisation far, far in advance of where Somalia is now. Some of the state executions in the US even in present times, usually performed in front of invited audiences, have been of a nature that would sicken many in Scandinavia and western Europe in much the way that Mick (and you're not the only one, Mick) have been sickened by the Somalia execution.

For centuries in India, the Hindu Brahmans required women to throw themselves on their husbands' funeral pyres or live out their widowhoods as slaves bereft of all human rights. Millions accepted suttee without question down the centuries, and when the British Empire banned it, women as well as men protested. Any mudcatter who thinks that he or she would have been the one to out against such entrenched abuse of women is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

Mick's post seemed out of place among the contributions around it. I would have thought there was little left to say about our horror at what happened in one specific outrage in Somalia. But anyone who wants to continue repeating it is of course free to do so. Others here have moved on from that to reflect on why these things happen and why setimes they even attract an element of popular support. Those who do not want to join this part of the discussion are under no obligation. Why should it bug them if others do? We are not likely to find answers if no-one is allowed to ask questions.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:07 PM

Is 'failed state' a technical term?
I'm not sure what it means.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:21 AM

I would call a "failed state" one in which there was no coherent central authority. Amnesty International has said in some reports that this constitutes the gravest current danger to human rights. It would appear to be the case in Somalia.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:29 AM

And when Amnesty say that, they mean a graver danger than from even the most execrable dictatorships.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 11:45 AM

The Pol Pot and Hitler situations actually do have something in common with the Somalia situation, though, whether or not we would put the label of "failed state" on their countries.. In each case, the societal structures and societal norms that had been in place, that provided a civilizing effect in those countries, had been broken down by outside forces. In the case of Hitler, the punitive measures that had been placed on Germany after WWI, combined with the market crash and the world wide depression caused economic and social chaos in that country, and Hitler rose to power offering the Germans a way out of that chaos. In Cambodia, the US bombings of that country assisted Pol Pot in his rise to power because they deprived King Sihanouk of his main appeal to his people, which was that he had kept them out of the war. This resulted in driving more and more people to the side of Pol Pot, and was eventually responsible for causing Sihanouk to be removed from power.

In all of these cases, as in Somalia, the people at the bottom found themselves in desperate circumstances, and they had to make some hard choices. Accept an intolerable status quo, or put their faith in people who offer solutions, but who turn out to be as bad as or worse than those who represent the status quo.

I agree with those who have been saying that most of us really have no way of knowing what life is like for people in such circumstances, and it's not possible to know how we, ourselves, would behave if we should ever find ourselves facing such choices.

I think the more accurate way to label the sort of country that would be the most at risk for things like this to happen, would be not so much "failed state", as countries experiencing a breakdown in societal structures and societal norms.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 12:18 PM

Which doesn't, however, explain the cheering tributes to the Bali bombers at their funerals in Indonesia yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 12:35 PM

From what I read, the people who were cheering were militant Islamists. Those are the kind of people who take advantage of breakdowns in societal structures and societal norms in order to accomplish their agendas. They are the kind of people who are assisted when outside forces cause civilizing influences in their countries to break down.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: pdq
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 12:40 PM

"...militant Islamists. Those are the kind of people who take advantage of breakdowns in societal structures and societal norms in order to accomplish their agendas"

No, they are the ones who destroy societal structure and kill people who get in the way of their agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 01:24 PM

"...the ones who destroy societal structure and kill people who get in the way of their agenda" But not the only ones who do that - that's a very good summary of what was done to Iraq. And it had the same kind of results, in terms of inter-communal terror and kangaroo court repression and killing.

However I don't think arguing about the reasons for a particular collapse of a society is the best way to drift this thread. The reasons why society can break down are many - not just war, but also war, natural disaster of various sorts, or even economic meltdown, and I'm sure there are other causes we could think of.

When the structures of society break down it doesn't always happen that these kind of nightmares of human abuse occur. Human beings seem to have an instinct for setting up some system of order in disasters. Many times, and I believe most times, the result is very impressive, with people reinventing ways of making sure that things that need to be done are done, and that vulnerable people are looked after. But sometime it goes badly wrong, and a system of repression and terror emerges. And sometimes you get both happening intertwined with each other.

The puzzle is, what are the factors that decide which of these outcomes arise, when things fall apart and the centre cannot hold. And it's important to think about this kind of things, after all, we have no guarantee it won't happen to us.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 01:26 PM

That's actually not true. The Islamists in Iran arose because Iran's fledgling democracy was destroyed and the Shah reinstalled and propped up by the US. They were in the process of building a democracy in that country, and they had a totalitarian dictatorship imposed on them from the outside. The rise of Islamism in that country was a response to that.

In Afghanistan, the Taliban arose because of the complete destruction of Afghan societal structures and the civil infrastructure because of the US and Soviet Union fighting a proxy war in that country. In the wake of that war, the Taliban arose in answer to the total breakdown of all societal structures and the resulting total chaos there.

al Qaeda seeks to remove Western forces from Muslim countries, and their numbers are increased every time Western military aggression results in destruction and death in Muslim countries. They are a response to outside interference, not the other way around.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 01:27 PM

Crossposted with the poster before this post.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 01:34 PM

I think it's very important for us to examine ways in which our own actions contribute to the breakdown of societal structures and societal norms in other parts of the world. If we don't recognize the extent to which we contribute to these things, we will never correct our behavior and we will continue to do it. Clearly, this is no longer sustainable (on top of the fact that it is simply wrong for us to continue to do these things).

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: heric
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 01:36 PM

Surely some states, somewhere, must have failed before 1776?

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 01:48 PM

Surely some states, somewhere, must have failed before 1776? Obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:23 PM

I'll repeat what I said...

"If we don't recognize the extent to which we contribute to these things"

I don't know why that would be interpreted to mean that we are responsible for every state that has ever failed.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: heric
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:36 PM

Just teasing.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:37 PM

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:51 PM

"...ways in which our own actions contribute to the breakdown of societal structures and societal norms in other parts of the world."

I took that as meaning we should do this whoever and wherever we are. Not just citizens of the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: paula t
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:28 PM

You have gone away from the point that a little girl was murdered a few days ago. It doesn't matter what the finer meanings and interpretations are .

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:51 PM

The thread originator requested that we discuss causes. That's what we're doing.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 08:10 PM

Why this happened, and why this kind of thing happens surely is the point. That does not mean we should forget the terrible thing that happened to this girl.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 05:35 AM

Please feel free to repeat your earlier thoughts ad nauseum, paula t, if you can't think of anything else worth saying.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:05 PM

There's a phenomenon frequently reported about gangs, where carrying out a killing is a kind of ritual requirement for new members, or where joint involvement in a killing is a way of binding members together. And there have been plenty of examples where something analogous can be seen in larger communities and societies.

For example, one way of thinking of The Terror in the French Revolution was that it a kind of blood sacrifice, a burning of bridges - "there's no going back now - we are all implicated."

I wonder whether this can be seen as one of the root causes for the kind of brutality we've been talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: A Story, which beggars belief
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:17 PM

Here is a discussion about ways things like this can be prevented. Basically, the speakers are advocating for strengthening the International Criminal Court. One of them points out that when warlords and militias such as the one that was responsible for the stoning see that they are vulnerable to being prosecuted by the international court, they do moderate their behavior...

http://fora.tv/2008/10/17/International_Law_and_Justice_The_Darfur_Case


If the court was impartial, it would also have the effect of moderating the behavior of governments as well.