CD-R Questions

Subject: CD-R Questions
From: RTim
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:56 PM

Are there any disadvantages using CD-R's when creating a short run of a commercial CD's, over having them produced by someone like Oasis or other manufacturers? Tim Radford

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:59 PM

Not in the short term. Glass-mastering produces a CD that reportedly will out live a laser-burned digital product (CD-R) But for most practical purposes, you'll get comparable value from the CDR.

What you need to calc'late is the per-copy cost at your projected number of a given master.


A

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Arkie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:12 PM

If you decide to use CD-Rs, you might consider printable discs and print a label directly to the disc rather than use the stick on labels. Some people claim to have good luck with the stick on labels but they will not play in my truck. Instead they jam into the slot and are difficult to remove. They could be a problem in any player with a narrow slot instead of a drawer. Printers that print directly on CDs are not that expensive.   I have an HP printer that prints to CDs and does the usual printing jobs as well and purchased it for around $100.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:23 PM

Note also that the functional life of CDRs can be unpredictable, and some brands are considered more reliable than others. It may also be that the burner used plays a part in this. Only the other day I found that an audio CDR made maybe 5 or 6 years ago had at some point become unplayable; a problem I've never encountered with a glass-mastered CD.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: treewind
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 03:59 AM

"I have an HP printer that prints to CDs"

Which one is that? The only cheap CD printers I can find are made by Epson. I have one but it's a temperamental beast.

Anahata

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 05:40 AM

your timing on these questions are PERFECT for me also as I'm getting getting into my archiving project. It's hard to educate oneself when I don't even know the questions to ask ... come to think about it, maybe that's why I've had previous marriages? Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 05:57 AM

I've just had to throw out a couple of dozen CDRs which won't play on anything I've got in the house. And they include one or two which were burned within the past couple of years. These latter were admittedly very cheap discs. Against that, I have discs which were burned over ten years ago which still perform perfectly. But that was in the days before cheap CDRs.

My conclusion therefore is that anyone contemplating issuing stuff on CDR should go for the very best quality. And if you've got anything at all on CDR, get it backed up to a computer. God knows, external hard drives are cheap enough nowadays.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 09:13 AM

I and a friend have used CD-R's in this way for years.
We've consistently been pleased with the results.

I get catalogs from DiskMakers and Oasis and some of their specials looking tempting.

Another friend uses Oasis regularly.

Your mileage may vary.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 09:53 AM

HP makes a "lightscribe" burner which uses special discs to literally burn an image onto the disc - no ink is involved. However, you cannot print in color - as far as I know. I haven not had any problems with the lightscribe discs.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:07 AM

I work at a university where the print shop has several commercial reproduction burners for commercial CDs. It isn't the same as the big record company pressings, how they do it, these are the same kind of CDs you get to burn in your home computer.

The university sends out catalogs on CD, departments produce annual reports on CD, but also outside groups will bring in data or music CDs for reproduction and printing. The one machine burns the disk then flips it to a new spool to print it (ink jet), and you have your choice of with or without a paper sleeve. I just called to ask what the price is these days. $1 per CD, with the sleeve. That is based upon a run of 100, when you're printing multiple copies of one CD.

The Mudcat Blue Bottle Special was printed by them several years ago.

SRS

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 03:39 PM

Several reputable smaller labels are issuing their product on CD-Rs. There's a price advantage (over pressed CDs) for short runs; this disappears as run length increases. The major advantage for the smal producer (including indies) is that you don't have to lay out the cash for a thousand-CD run when you don't expect to sell that many in the near future.

While I've hears of failed CD-Rs, I've personally never encountered any. CD-Rs that I (CAMSCO) sell have a lifetime warranty.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 03:48 PM

Often this has to do with the quiality of the CD you use. The best CDs in the industry are Taiyo Yuden. They are slightly more expensive than your OFfice Depot run of the mill, but you get an assurance they will play cleanly and last longer. In the DVD business the real pros won't use anything but.


A

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:25 PM

Beat me to it, Amos -- Taiyo Yuden is the industry standard brand.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:47 PM

Disturbing. How many artists are there out there passing off their home-produced CD-Rs as CDs and charging upwards of a tenner a throw? For shame! CD-Rs are not CDs and shouldn't really be sold as such.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:09 PM

Not directly to any point of importance here but:

Some people claim to have good luck with the stick on labels but they will not play in my truck.

Most players designed for use in vehicles use (or did a while back) a "damper" which is usually a small felt pad mounted on a light spring that rides on the top surface of the disk at the outer edge to keep the disk from bouncing around. A label that goes "clear to the edge" may snag or otherwise hang up on the damper and prevent the disk from playing.

In worst case, the damper rips little bits of the label off and jams everything up. The "little bits" don't have to be big enough to be conspicuous, as long as they can knock the disk cockeyed (while it's spinning it only takes a twitch) so that the disk itself wedges into something.

If you can use labels that leave a perfectly concentric clear outer rim about an eighth inch wide, this particular problem doesn't usually cause failure in the drive (or at least that's what I've been told by those who claim to know).

It's been reported that even some "direct printed" CDs can have trouble with this "feature" if the ink runs too close to the rim.

John

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Anglo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:55 PM

Im sorry you're disturbed, Insane Beard. I have often done a short run of CDRs, either for something with a very limited market, or to get "pre-release" copies of a new CD for a concert. There is no difference in the sound, they are equivalent technologies. And as Dick says, he gives a lifetime warranty as do I.

It depends on what you mean by "home-produced." As far as I can see, we're discussing short runs of studio-quality recordings, not Joe Blow standing in front of a living-room mic recording a demo.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:21 PM

I've never seen Taiyo Yuden brand CD-Rs in Canada. I use Verbatim brand which advertise an archival life up to 100 years. They also proclaim that the CD-Rs meet Orange Book ll standards, whatever that means. The price is very competitive if you buy them on sale.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:34 AM

DISC ROT!!!

about 10 years ago, first reports of Disc Rot in factory pressed silver discs emerged in public;
and so major record lables agreed a replacement program for affected product from known problematic pressing plants..

I already had a shoe box full of CD singles that were 'going off'..

mostly CBS.. I meant to get round to replacing them.. but life got in the way..

About 2 years ago I read that the replacement program was soon to be closed down..
so I travelled back to my mums house were I was storing boxes of several thousand commercial CDs..

Over most of a day I sifted out so many 'rotted' CD Albums
that I could fill a large storage/removal cardboard box with 'em..
hundreds of the rotted bastards..

mostly Warner product.. and a hell of a lot of very expensive US & Japanese import Warner pressings..

symptoms.. brown to goldish discoloration.. and/or pin prick holes
or even worse lace like decay in the metal playing surface..

So despairing..

and agin, just when I was in email communication with the last industry contact
who could sort out replacement..
some one else in my family died..

and by the time i could get back round to caring about CDs.. too effin late !!!


..oh.. and this summer I sorted out all teh DVDs I've burnt in the last few years..

and I've got a whole box of manky looking discolured memorex DVDs..

darent even bother looking through my boxes of home made CDs..

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:44 AM

If you copy them at fairly low speeds--maybe 12x or less--you may have fewer compatibility problems. The centrifugal forces of very fast duplication distend the disc and affect the track alignment.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Hamish
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 06:10 AM

I use CD-Rs but it's because my CD sales are a cottage industry. I'll press maybe a dozen if I've got a gig coming up. And I don't sell them. I give them away in return for a contribution to charity of around a fiver. And I use the cheapest I can find with stick-on labels. Do I ever encounter problems? Well, yes. But not very often. Not often enough to make me want to go for a more expensive product. Sometimes the CD won't play beyond a certain track. But they're usually okay. And I've never had any problems with the sticky labels. But they don;t go right to the edge (see John in Kansas' post above) and I use a gizmo to make sure they're centred correctly.

I'd feel funny about pretending they were pukka CDs worth £10 or more, though. I say "They're promo CDs".

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:07 AM

I only use Verbatim 'Super AZO' full face inkjet printable CD-Rs, and I have a Primera Signature III CD printer.

They have proved reliable - no-one has ever complained about a faulty one (other than people whose CD player won't accept CD-Rs!), and I've had very few fail during writing. Some of those that did fail probably weren't faulty, as I've had no failures since I changed the mastering drive unit.

Cheaper inkjet printables tend to allow atmospheric moisture to cause the inket to 'spread', resulting in a print that looks as if it was done on blotting paper after a couple or so years.

I've duplicated a few thousand over the years, though I would agree with previous posts that they are only economically viable in short runs of 100 or less.

As for the actual value, I believe the content rather than the materials used should dictate the price. If the artiste has produced a quality recording, but hasn't the financing to support volume production and distribution, there is nothing wrong with selling a CD-R for the same price as a glass mastered copy. It's not the CD that's being sold, but the opportunity to listen to the music...

Very important... if you want radio play, ALWAYS include track timings in the list of contents. We frequently receive CDs for air play, and it's a fiddle trying to balance the time available when there's nothing on the 'sleeve notes' (showing my age there...!).

Off on a tangent now... 4m30s is the most a track should run if you want air time, because limited time available and a 7 minute track usually means omitting a perfectly good track in favour of two other perfectly good tracks... sorry, but that's the reality.

Consider... our programme runs for an hour. However, the first three minutes at the top of the hour is the IRN news. The next minute is station ID and promos. We have two 'ad breaks' of around two minutes. The hour is now down to 52 minutes!

Gripe over...!

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: GUEST,andrewq
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:08 AM

Anahata "The only cheap CD printers I can find are made by Epson."

As you're in the UK I think you'll find that there are a couple of Canons that do this too. (Apparently, Canon doesn't supply the CD tray in some other countries for mysterious reasons).

I have a Canon PIXMA iP4500 which was inexpensive and compatible cartridges (now including the chip) are available in Tesco and via cheapo mail order companies. It works pretty well.

Canon have just given the range a cosmetic make-over, changed the cartridge shape and number, and put the price up. The reviews I've seen say the new model is pretty much the same quality as the iP4500 that is still widely available.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:23 AM

I've no problem with CD-Rs, but feel that they should be sold - and priced - as such to avoid confusion with the conventional product.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:32 AM

Is there any way to label CDs that is

- quick per image (unlike Lightscribe)
- possible to set up without hours of work and specialist training (unlike silkscreen)
- cheap (unlike proprietary inkjet inks)
- independent of specific brands of media (unlike "printable" CDs which usually have crap durability)
- waterproof (unlike ordinary inkjet printing)

apart from laser-printed paper labels?

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:39 AM

Insane Beard,

No matter how it was created....
Why shouldn't an artist sell the CD for whatever s/he thinks the content on it is worth?
Or whatever s/he thinks the market will bear?
Or whatever s/he feels like at the time?

Russ

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:45 AM

Jack, go look at my post above. The print shop does that work you're asking about, and they can help you with the labels if you need it. I used my university as an example, but I'm sure if you look around you'll find other places that have similar arrangements, though these folks can deal with remote orders and will send a proof, etc.

SRS

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:03 AM

There are some monochrome thermal printers around which are quite cheap, and print on plain CD-Rs.

I think Casio do one... yes - Amazon have them listed... the only way AFAIK to do colour is to change the cartridge (or have more than one with different colours). Methinks registration for multiple colours would probably be unreliable, and photographs would be out of the question.

If you just want fairly simple text labelling for archiving, such a printer would do the job efficiently and cheaply.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:31 PM

Why shouldn't an artist sell the CD for whatever s/he thinks the content on it is worth?

Because it's a CD-R, not a CD, and it cost them buttons to produce with minimal outlay. A CD on the other hand requires a degree of investment and a certain need to break even with regard to an established market place.

I like CD-Rs for this very reason, BTW - but feel anything over £5 is taking the piss somewhat.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:58 PM

We'll have to agree to differ here... it's NOT the medium, but the content.

Now then, if the standard of recording/mixing isn't professional, sell them cheap or give them away as a demo. But if the standard of the content is high, the rewards should reflect this.

I'm afraid that suggesting the cost of producing CD-Rs as opposed to CDs has any bearing on the price of the end result is like suggesting Les Barker's little pamphlets of poems are only worth 25p each...

Think carefully about the implications of this before you jump down my throat!!

Something is WORTH what people will pay for it. It's called 'market forces'.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 04:43 PM

As a matter of fact, the cost of producing a CD OR a CD-R is a trivial part of the cost of producing the finished package. Worrying about the technology employed is something like worrying about whether your car has 4 or 6 cylibders...it's the result that counts.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: RTim
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 04:56 PM

If I decide to produce a recording on a CD-R, as Dick says - that is not the most significant cost in the production. Because I am not stinting on the Recording, Mixing, etc. - That is where the costs are. Also - if I am producing a many paged booklet to go with the production, then costs are even more to be found there. My original reason for asking the question is simply because I am producing a very small CD run - 250 copies at the most, of a product that only has a limited audience appeal. Tim Radford (and I have yet to make up my mind finally what to use)

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Arkie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 05:50 PM

Several years ago when still involved in a digital recording project to preserve a collection of music previously recorded on cassettes and reel to reel tape I subscribed to ARSClist, which was a project of the Association of Recorded Sound Collections. The list provided a lot of insight usually coming from professional technicians and others with experience in digital recording. This list is aimed at people who preserving archived music, not people recording for resale, however. One thing I discovered is that many business and archives who are concerned about the lifetime of discs use gold CD-Rs. They are more expensive than those commonly used. Cost was around $1.00 when I was buying them. It seems like the brand name was Mitsui MAM-A Gold. Their promotion listed a life span of 300 years.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Bernard
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 08:02 PM

The most important consideration... unlike the difference between cassette and vinyl (the options before CDs), there is absolutely no audible difference whatsoever between CDs and CD-Rs - assuming identical programme material, of course.

Unless you happen to belong to that group of nutters who used to believe you could make a CD sound better by drawing around its edge with a special green felt pen...!

The enemy of a CD-R is ultraviolet light - store them in the dark.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 06:52 AM

And them self-styled folk-singers, well I must bring 'em in,
With their home-produced albums and they think it no sin,
To call it a CD, when its a cheap CD-R
Which will cost you a tenner and won't play in the car.
Honesty's all out of fashion -
These are the riggs of the time, time me boys!
These are the rigs of the time!

;-]

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: matt milton
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:48 AM

I've never had any problems with CDRs. I assume most of the albums I buy are CDRs, but to be honest I don't know or care. I have no idea whether the CDs I buy from the artist via paypal, having heard the music on their myspace page, were replicated or duplicated. Ultimately a CD-R is still a compact disc.

If it plays, it plays. If it doesn't I'll ask for my money back. But as I've never had any problems, it's never been an issue. They can charge whatever they like for them. For what it's worth, I've never found one not playing in the car. But that would hardly be the end of the world. I rarely pay more than a tenner for a CD.

Records get scratched and will warp if stored incorrectly. Cassette tapes deteriorate too. Music is ephemeral. Concerts end. Shit happens.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: matt milton
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:57 AM

Here's the link to the cheapest replicators I can currently find in the UK:

http://www.wr4multimedia.co.uk/cd-replication.html

You could get 1000 CDs in full-colour card wallets for £390

That's replicated, not duplicated: those are not CDRs.

Frankly I think you'd struggle to do *half* that number of CDRs for that price, once you factored in the time it took you to burn them, the cost of buying the blank CDs, the cost and time of whatever packaging you opted for.

The thing is, due to economies of scale, I increasingly believe it's hardly ever worth doing just 100 CDs, whether that's home-burned or via a pro CD pressing plant.

The one exception is if you're very time-rich and very cash-poor.

Subject: RE: CD-R Questions
From: Bernard
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 12:20 PM

There are quite a few people on the folk scene who don't see themselves ever going 'big time' (and I count myself amongst them), and do so few gigs that shifting 50 CDs can take a couple of years...

I've recorded a few people over the years who fall in that category, to whom having a few hundred CDs parked in a cupboard indefinitely doesn't make a lot of sense!

It really depends upon why you recorded the CD in the first place... some people really do not do it to try to make money, honest!!