BS: William Zantzinger dead - 10 January 2009

Subject: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: Skivee
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 10:51 PM

...and buried as of this Friday. No other info was released by the rat bastard's family.

as reported on various wire services.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 07:35 PM

Does this mean we won't be seeing him again?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: Joybell
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:01 PM

No more "what ever happened to William Zanzinger" threads.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jan 09 - 08:41 PM

I think it's "ZanTzinger."

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:18 AM

That other thread did surface. It was one of the regular Mudcat threads that brought in hits from one-time posting visitors.

If a life unexamined isn't a life at all, I wonder at his, examined contintually based upon those early years. I wonder if he did anything to try to make up for past wrongs?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:35 AM

Judging by the stories which came in - stories of squeezing tenants etc, - it did not look as though he had earned his wings and halo. Still, if he did make it upstairs, take comfort in the fact that he will now have an opportunity to explain his behaviour to Hattie Carrol.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:39 AM

SRS--Here is the Mother Jones Story about Zantzinger. It is linked in the other thread, but it's worth re-reading.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: Little Robyn
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:53 AM

But you who philosophize disgrace
And criticize all fears,
Take the rag away from your face,
Now ain't the time for your tears.

Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: open mike
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:48 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/us/10zantzinger.html

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:30 PM

The "other thread" is well worth reading, if you haven't seen it already.

Mr Zantzinger's life was certainly throughly examined, but how much he himself might have examined it is certainly open to question. When Plato or Socrates or whoever uttered that famous quote, I'm pretty sure he was recommending that we each examine our own life...

While his apologists probably have a point in arguing that he never meant to actually kill anybody, he was certainly a definitive example of the sort of smug overprivileged jerk who can step all over other people without a second thought.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM

Here's an article in The Australian.

He was not a nice person and I think he should have apologized, however, I've been present when drunks got as abusive. I've never known any of them who whose victims had died as a result of the stress. They might very well have, but as far as I know, they didn't.

I've seen people on Mudcat who wished others harm, I've seen name calling and hounding. I know people have been upset because of those things, but none died. I wonder if those of you who so need someone to feel superior to would react the same way. Maybe if Dylan wrote a somewhat exaggerated song about you, the mob would be on your ass too.

He seems like he was a sad, flawed individual, but not the fictional villain Dylan created.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:17 PM

"He seems like he was a sad, flawed individual, but not the fictional villain Dylan created."

FICTIONAL villain? Oh PLEASE!

Since murdering an innofensive Black woman on a spur-of-the-moment whim is merely "sad" and "flawed", precisely what constitutes a REAL villain in your cosmography?

I suppose you feel sorry for the "sad" and "flawed" Eichmann, Stalin, Pol Pot &c &c &c

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: open mike
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:27 PM

link to the "other" Zantzinger thread

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:17 PM

Hey there ," Greg F "----We are all Sad and Flawed, if the truth be known !! It goes with the "Human Condition", man ! Well now, I'd just LOVE to be there at the Pearly Gates when YOU arrive ,Sir Gregory the Wonderful, to tell Saint Peter what a PERFECT individual you have been !! ---- Yes, Sir !!

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:52 PM

I would consider a murderer a villain. If you have evidence that wasn't presented at the trial, it shouldn't be Mudcat you divulge it to.

...and please leave off the personal attacks. That is not where this thread's going to go.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:21 PM

PoppaGator, I meant, I wonder if after all of the public examination of his life, if he did some of that also, on his own behalf. I haven't gone back to re-read the old thread, I've been too busy, but I remember reading of a series of unethical practices that he did simply because he could get away with it. Perhaps his character was such that he was incapable of useful reflection.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:22 PM

It's nice, refreshing to see the hypocrisy of so called liberals. When the object of their hatred comes in sight it no-holds-barred! Pure evil was Wm. Zantzinger. When do the trials for Bush begin so we can hang the bastard, real slow-like! Yeah! What a blood thirsty crew SOME of ye be.

Think of the dying thief on the cross who ask the Christ to remember him when Christ inherited His Kingdom. This man (along with Jesus) was hated and reviled and, unlike Christ, was undoubtedly guilty of his crimes. And yet Christ forgave him.

My own take on Mr. Zantzinger is that he was a sociopath or at least a borderline personality. The fact that he was a child of privilege MAY have contributed to his callous disregard for human life and his disrespect for other human beings but that is probably just icing on the cake. There are plenty of similarly afflicted people who have not had privilege such as Zantzinger. They still act with wanton disregard for the lives and wellbeing of others. Was Zantzinger beyond redemption? From the little I know about his personal life since the Hattie Carrol incident, none of his actions would indicate remorse or a change of heart ( or the growing of a heart in the first place!).

Like most cautionary tales, the story tells me to look to my own house and be sure I am not in the same or similar condition and that is ALL I can take from it.

Check your hate at the door. It's an ugly thing to carry around.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM

He didn't commit murder, because, while a reasonable person would not do what he did, neither would a reasonable person expect that what he did would cause a death. The conviction was for involuntary manslaughter.

One wonders why Dylan was so hard on Zantzinger, while he gave the subject of "Percy's
Song" a pass in the vehicular homicide of four people:

"There was four persons killed
And he was at the wheel,
Turn, turn to the rain
And the wind.

But I knew him as good
As I'm knowin' myself,"
Turn, turn, turn again.
And he wouldn't harm a life
That belonged to someone else,
Turn, turn to the rain
And the wind."

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: GUEST,goatfell
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:16 AM

well as a Christian, I should forgive him, but I don't, he'll be going to a place where is he'll be as warm as toast.
and what did happen to him

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: Skivee
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 01:08 PM

M.Ted, you make a good point with Percy's Song. I used to sing it a while back.
I could never figure out why Percy deserved a light sentence for four counts of vehicular manslaughter. I stopped singing the song.
I guess what disturbs my zen about Zanzinger is that he seemed almost proud of his accomplishment.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:01 PM

A couple people who knew Zantzinger have posted to the other thread. They seem to have known a very different person than either the one Dylan wrote about or even the one that later journalists describe.

I really have no idea how he felt about what happened to Hattie Carroll, or about his own roll in it. I do know that he had to deal with many people who judged him only based on a compelling but inaccurate song that Dylan wrote, and for that reason, was distrustful, if not contemptuous of the media. Ironically, this is exactly how Dylan felt about the media.

So what he said, or was characterized as saying, may not have had much to do with how he felt.

Oddly, years ago, because of my interest in Dylan, I learned about Zantzinger. Now, because of my interest in Zantzinger, I learn about Dylan.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zanzinger dead
From: pdq
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 08:35 PM

Here is a good example of...

                                              Dylan v. Truth

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead
From: GUEST,goatfell
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM

who cares really, as I say as a Christian, Ishould forgive him, but as a 'human' it's good that he's dead, and of course the people that knew him will see a different man.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:12 PM

PDQ--And let's not even talk about the Joey Gallo song--

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:20 PM

Yes, M.Ted...and if The Bob thinks Mozambique is so great, perhaps he should have moved there.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:05 PM

At the conclusion of the "Lord's Prayer" in Matthew 6 (9-13) it goes on to say, v 14 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: (15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your trespasses."

So it appears that "as a Christian" forgiveness is not an option. When unjust anger or even disproportional anger "worketh not the righteousness of God" there just isn't a whole lot of wiggle room for judging and condemning folks to hell. Throw in Jesus' "New Commandment" to His followers (John 13:34) "That you love one another; as I have loved you..." and the Christian response, as it should be, begins to emerge.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:07 PM

See this interview with Zantsinger in the New Yorker. He acknowledged what he had done; he is not the villain, himself, that Dylan sang. That does not take away from the merit of the song, as a breaking of walls and a showing of patterns. Forgiveness is merited, and ther eis no virtue in being as msall-minded as the man himself was.


A

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:37 AM

Thanks, Amos. I hadn't read that issue yet.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead
From: Skivee
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 02:06 AM

So Slag, will you forgive us for having an honest discussion with hearthfelt differing opinions? It's my opinion that he was not a good man; that he used his position to laugh his way out of a situation that he caused through arrogance, racist, classist, entitled drunken hautiness.
The fact was that he essentially laughed at killing a woman through his callous actions. Some might say," what's the big deal, he didn't really smack her that badly , right? If it was such jolly good fun you might expect to see folks lining up on the street to experience because it's good for the servant class.
I learned along time ago not to put too much stock in the factuality of folk songs and folk-singers. I also have learned that they can reveal meta-truths. The same goes for Oliver Stone films but without so much of the truthiness.
I am no more privy to the workings of his inner soul than any others who posted here. That being said, you may as well tell us that we have no right to an opinion about whether Boothe should have died for shooting Lincoln, or whether child molesters and con artists should spend jail time.
If you have no wish to form such an opinion, then that is certainly your right. If you wish to think of me as being uncharitable for taking another tack, then you have that option as well. The idea that I am not allowed to have a harsh opinion and am diminished by it because of your religious scripture holds not truth for me. I am not taking a schadenfruedesque pleasure here even if it seems so to you.
The fact that he is no longer around to skate past his perfidy certainly improves the world.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 04:43 AM

So where's he buried?

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead
From: Elmore
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 08:31 AM

Breaking News! William Zantzinger still dead.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 08:34 AM

Burial:
Christ Church Cemetery
Chaptico
St. Mary's County
Maryland, USA

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead - 10 January 2009
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:52 PM

The song itself has great merits just AS a song that illustrates something useful about issues like social inequality, prejudiced courts, and injustice...as well as a smug sense of righteousness on the part of many people who have never actually exerted any real effort on their own behalf to redress injustices. It challenges each and every one of us to be far more honest and to strive harder.

As such, it's a very effective song about moral principle, regardless of whether it exaggerated the "evil" of the specific man, William Zantzinger.

Slag, I think you probably meant to type

"as a Christian" unforgiveness is not an option"

, didn't you? The message of the New Testament is that it is incumbent upon all individuals to learn to forgive others if they are to expect themselves to BE forgiven. Looks to me like you made a typo in that one line, judging by the rest of your post...

I'll say this from my own experience: the LEAST forgiving people in this world are without question the least pleasant, the unhappiest, the meanest, the cruelest, and the most negative people to be around. And...they're also the most dangerous. So it appears to me that the real Christian message...that one should forgive others...is right on the mark. Vengeance is the pastime of fools....and oppressive governments of all kinds. (It's also a staple of popular Hollywood films! Why? Well, it's very dramatic, that's why. It produces violent action and suspense. And it appeals to people's baser instincts in a marvelously effective way. Thus...almost every action movie you've ever seen...hell, what would Clint Eastwood and Charles Bronson have done without vengeance?????? They allowed the general public to vicariously process their unexpressed rage.)

I'm willing to forgive others for a difference of opinion.    Definitely. I do it all the time here. And I've forgiven them for far worse than that. ;-) But if they are unwilling to forgive me, merely over some trivial difference of opinion about something...then that's the private hell they have decided to live in, and I can't do much about it except just focus on other matters instead and not worry about it. (Which is probably what they should do too, if they wanted a bit more peace of mind...) Someone who is addicted to feeling his own anger, though, can't understand that. He needs someone to hate, someone to attack, and he'll keep coming back for one more fix. It never ends.

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead - 10 January 2009
From: meself
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:48 PM

"They allowed the general public to vicariously process their unexpressed rage."

Or as some celebrity was quoted as saying: "I don't watch John Wayne movies to learn moral lessons - I watch them to see the good guys win and the bad guys lose."

Subject: RE: BS: William Zantzinger dead - 10 January 2009
From: ollaimh
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:47 PM

forgive and remember