Ethics in archiving?

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:19 PM

Ray Alden's address now sent.
Ray

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 08:49 PM

Thanx muchly ... I'd appreciate that. bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 08:16 PM

I can PM you Ray Alden's email address if you like, Bob
Ray

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:33 AM

It seems their website is down right now ... I'll keep looking for it. Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:28 AM

Thanks ... I'll look into it. bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,BanjoRay
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM

Why don't you get in touch with Ray Alden and join the Field Recorders Collective? They've been doing this for years - collecting recordings of the old musicians, at first for their own pleasure, but increasingly for the benefit of posterity. The recordings end up with the public and any profits go to surviving family members. There's currently a thread discussing and NPR recording of a program about them.
Ray

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM

A hundred years ago, when I was younger, I used to live in the Santa Cruz mountains of California. While there I made a baby and I taught him to walk in "Cowell State Park." This was a precious place of giant redwood trees, many animals and much piece and quiet. Every weekend morning he and I explored the park and played and played and played.

I re-visted the park in 1972 (when I was a little older) and decided to walk the familiar trail my son and I enjoyed. This time I took along a tape recorder and recorded the sounds I heard. When I play the tape today, I hear the water in the creek fading away as the trail moved away from the creek bed, I hear many birdses, I hear the wind in the trees, but most of all, I hear the silence and peacefullness of that magical place.

To me, this is also part of recording, or documenting, those things that have so influenced us. bob(Deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:50 AM

For the benefit of those folks who are unaware of some collector/archivists who had a similar problem can I refer you to another posting on this forum under Field Recorders Collective.
These guys do a great job with their material.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:59 AM

Malcolm,

I think you've pretty well covered it, or my understanding of it anyway. Just to add that the new CDs will likewise be called Voice of the People. Also, if I've got it correct, I think they're going to be issued as several seperate multi disc compilations, rather than, as with the original VOTPs, which of course were sold as stand alones.   

BTW., As far as I know and am pretty certain, the original tapes were wiped and reused after the recordings were transferred to shellac. Sounds atrocious I know. But that was pretty standard archiving practice in those days, the cost of tape being horrendous.

BTW also, I'm currently working my way through the pile of Folktrax cassettes which were given to me as part of Keith Summers' record collection. To describe them as pluperfect awful is to use the understatment of the century. Lousy sound, unreadable photocopied non-existant notes, and mix and match splicing like there's no tomorrow. On one cassette, a single track has been collated from 22 splices of 10 different recordings.

And of course, in most cases there's no indication as to who the collector was, and buggar all information on the people who gave him the recordings.

Also, like cheap cassettes everywhere, these things drag and skew on the slightest provocation. You can get some very startling noises when that happens. EG., a cassette of West African guitarists comes to mind. It plays fine on side 1. Turn it over and the guitar becomes intermittantly inaudible. In its place I can hear, quite distinctly, a concertina playing a morris dance tune!

Roll on the new VOTPs - and the return of sanity.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:08 AM

Re. Peter Kennedy.

In answer to Jim Martin, I'm not sure who he means by 'they' (the BBC, perhaps?) but Sheffield University doesn't have the expertise or the resources to undertake digital archiving of the materials in its own possession, let alone anybody else's. As Jim Carroll has said, there are already digital copies of the Kennedy sound archive, though these were made from acetate copies rather than from the original tapes. The fate (and perhaps location) of the tapes themselves was unclear last I heard, but that was before Kennedy died.

So far as current ownership of the Kennedy materials is concerned, CAMSCO has copies of the Kennedy compilations as edited and issued by him on cassette and, later, CD, and is continuing, for the time being, to sell CDR copies of these under license. As agreed with Kennedy, these are 'as is' and have not been re-mastered. Kennedy's copies of the original recordings are now the property of Topic Records; they plan to issue a series of selections from those, suitably re-mastered, on the lines of the Voice of the People set. My understanding is that the BBC has no problem with this. The material they don't include will then be available under license to CAMSCO. This presumably applies only to the recordings made by Kennedy himself, not to those made by others as part of the BBC project, though he also had copies of those and included material from them on his own compilations. Some of the latter material (recordings made in Hampshire by Bob Copper, for example) has already featured in the Voice of the People set.

This, at least, is what I understand to be the present situation. Dick Greenhaus and Fred McCormick know a lot more about it than I do.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:06 AM

My brother I were talking tonight and he mentioned a WIRE recording I sent him in 1952, when he was stationed in the Philippines. He says he still has it, but I doubt I could even find a working "WIRE RECORDER" today. I think I remember mine was a "Bell and Howell." I was talking with another archivist the other day and he reminded me that the method we used to use to repair broken wires was to tie the pieces together in a square knot and then burn the knot with a cigarrete to smooth the edges! How's that for high tech. bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:33 PM

Hijack alert again. Sorry!

Jim. I could do some digging around for you. I retired two years ago, but, still have a few contacts.
Early 80's you say? Might get lucky. If you could provide as much info as possible, approx broadcast dates, network. (I'm assuming Radio here), particularly useful would be a producers name (Some producers kept safety copies of their progs, presumably not trusting the system to keep them safe!!).
By the 1980s, more care was being taken with recorded programmes.
Nowadays in a tapeless world. All programmes are stored direct to a Humungous server, that can be accessed by a producer (for editing purposes anywhere within the BBC.) God knows how many TerraBytes is stored. Talk about mindboggling!
So, get in touch mate!

And Bob. Yes you are right. It doesn't bear thinking about how much priceless stuff is lying around in peoples attics! If you think about it most people in the (western world) had some sort of personal recording device, Walkman etc from the late 60s onwards....there must be millions of hours of stuff out there!
So, In a way, more recordings are bound to survive today, than in previous generations. Not many people had wax cylinder recorders at the beginning of the 20th century did they?! Interesting topic though. Thanks for raising it
Cheers Ralph

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:51 PM

If archiving the Kennedy collection is such a big job, why don't they outsource some of it to somewhere like Sheffield University is it that does folk archive stuff?

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:40 PM

I heard part of that and intended to go look for the link to listen to the entire thing. How timely, thanks for the link, Stew!

SRS

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stewart
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:33 PM

Heard on npr this evening:

Saving Folk History, One Recording At A Time

interesting!

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM

Good for you, Art. I'm with you all the way.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:36 PM

I'm sticking by my earlier post! I did what I did---and I can't be bothered by revisionist history value judgments made by our musical Taliban at this late date.

Love to you all,

Art

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:42 AM

You know, I don't think you've "highjacked" this thread at all. I suspected when I posted these questions that others would be interested.

This whole area of collections and archiving is going to become more and more noticed as we get older. If little old me, hidden deep within the woods of Northwest America, has a tape collection of some historical value, then think about the MILLIONS of other recordings that lie waiting to be dicovered. EH? Bob(deckman)Nelson ... still in Everett ... where the dogs still run slower than the cats ... mostly!

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:08 AM

Ralphie,
Thanks for that insider information - perhaps you are in the position to provide me with some more.
Were would I go to find out if programmes I am interested in were still in existence am interested in 1 in particular which was made in the early 80s (I think)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:08 AM

Oh and Bob (Deckman) Sorry to Hi Jack your thread. If I were you. Archive and be damned!!!! Good Luck!!
Ralph
PS anybody got 100 Dat machines? LOL!

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:06 AM

Putting on Ex BBC hat here!
What Jim says is factually true.
Since the Mid 90's there has been a project to collate all the various recordings held by the Beeb. It started with digitising all the Peel sessions, followed by Andy Kershaw sessions, and then any Live concerts that still existed. It was such a success that a couple of years ago it was decided to archive the whole shebang!
Talk about painting the Forth bridge!
The only problem is what still exists. It's very true that when tape first appeared it was very expensive, and needed re-cycling. Normally this would be done by various producers, but, ultimately by an Archive panel, who decided what was and what was not worth keeping!!
So, Churchill speeches made the cut, but many other recordings went to the great reclamation site in sky. (Brooklands Park, actually.!!)

It was all a bit hit and miss, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Kennedy collection has bitten the dust as far as the Beeb is concerned. (Remember Acetate discs are not only fragile but very heavy in bulk!)

As far as tapes in skips is concerned, This came to light when working on the Nic Jones re-issue CD's. Having contacted the team that worked on Folk On 2 before it became outsourced to Smooth Operations , I was informed that having been wound up, there was nowhere to put the hours of recordings so.....the inevitable happened.

As an example, of the 8 Nic Jones Peel sessions, only 1 survived.

If you would care to check out the Peel Sessions book, at the end, there are 100 pages listing (as far as is humanly possible) every Peel session ever recorded. Dates Times etc, etc...

With about 25 bands to a page. Each band doing four songs or more. Well you work it out. Well at a rough guess, that's 100 times 100 = 10,000 songs.   And that's just 1 Programme!!!

Yes, I know that we're talking a rock programme, not folk, but it's a well documented example of the sheer volume of material that has been recorded over the last 80 years.....Anyone want to work out 70 years of Promenade concert recordings? Or Friday Night Is Music Night? or The Organist Entertains, ITMA?)

As to what has survived of the Kennedy collection. Who knows. The archive team (about 10 of them I think. not much of a budget!), have probably only just got into the 1930s.... So maybe they'll turn up, (whats left of them) in about 2040. Remember you have to play these things in real time!!!!

so, I look forward to hearing them on the other side of the veil!

Cheers Ralphie

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:28 AM

Thank you Jim for the information and the way you presented it.
There is an old saying in sales and marketing that says that "You must never assume everyone knows about your product just because you do".
I suspect I am not the only one who does not know about this collection or the wonderful sound archives in the British Library Sound archive department.
So much to learn ,so little time
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:22 AM

Alan,
Sorry - missed a bit;
The recordings do not include interviews, or very few of them.
One of the great 'black holes' in our knowledge of folk song is due to the fact that most collectors never thought it worthwhile to discuss songs and singers with their informants, preferring to draw their own conclusions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:06 AM

Alan,
The BBC in conjunction with EFDSS initiated a collecting project some time in the early 1950s - have the details here somewhere.
Peter Kennedy was appointed head of the project and fellow collectors included Sean O'Boyle, Seamus Ennis and Bob Copper.
During the period of its activity several thousand items were recorded, songs, stories tunes, folklore - you name it.
The recordings were catalogued and put onto acetate discs - a set was housed at the BBC and another at Cecil Sharp House; the Northern Ireland BBC also had a copy.
Some of the recordings formed the basis for a series of programmes, 'As I Roved Out' presented by Kennedy, and appeared in a few others such as MacColl's 'The Song Carriers'.
The BBC then appeared to lose interest in the collection, and without their permission or that of any of the performers, Peter Kennedy, who had somehow acquired a copy, began to issue them commercially on his company 'Folktrax'. Because of who he was, nobody did anything about this, and he continued to sell them (mainly unmastered poor quality cassettes) right up to his death a few years ago. Kennedy's set of the recordings are now the (legal - I understand) property of Camsco (Dick Greenhaus).
I do not know the state of play with the BBC recordings, though I think they still exist, partially anyway. They occasionally put in an appearance, usually to be taken the piss out of by people who know nothing about folk music (The Rambling Sid Rumpo Syndrome).
A full set, now digitised, still exists at Cecil Sharp House, accompanied by a magnificent annotated catalogue.
Over the last few years the Dublin based Irish Traditional Music Archive, and (I think)The Folklore Department at UCD have acquired sets of the Irish material - I don't know if the School of Scottish Studies have the Scots material, but they should have.
The collection comprises the finest set of field recordings of British song and music ever made - excuse my surprise in your not knowing about it and the circumstances surrounding it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Nick E
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:57 PM

Well this is a can of worms! Delightful!
When it comes to ethics in archiving, ARCHIVE AWAY!
If there is profit from the publication of the archive, that is another story . No leagal reason not to archive as far as I know.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:02 PM

Jim which recordings are you referring to by the BBC?
All the Folk recordings of the fifties,including interviews with demonstration tracks? I also understand from Ralphie that many archive recordings also ended up in skips.If someone like Peter Kennedy did reissue many surely we should be praising him for making them available.
I ask these questions out of interest for the project I am working on,not to try and make it an issue of your posting.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

I suspect that as us "olde folkies" continue to age, many more of us will be coming to grips with the question of what to do with our odds and ends of recordings. One of the collections that has been passed onto me was from a long time friend in Santa Cruz, California. I literally took two boxes of reel to reel tapes from the trash heap headed for the dump. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 02:32 PM

"What a shame that more recordings were not done in the fifties and those that were done by the BBC were re recorded over to save money."
No they weren't.
They were filched and re-issued by Peter Kennedy, but a full set - now digitised, can be accessed at the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library at Cecil Sharp House - London.
Not to say that they are in the best of health, but last time I was there they were still listenable.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:16 AM

I can only say well done Rowan for your attitude regarding these recordings.You do not have do record with profit in mind.I add my appreciation also to all the players ,some professional, that do U Tube recordings for free downloads,including tutoring.It is all adding to the wealth of recordings to be passed on to future generations of styles music and tastes of today.What a shame that more recordings were not done in the fifties and those that were done by the BBC were re recorded over to save money.Others are deteriorating as I write this so it is hoped that many will do something about it and save them before they are lost forever.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Rowan
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:47 PM

In the process of putting together Anglo, English and now Duet(Concertina) Internationals I have listened to hours upon hours of archive cassette recordings and sadly a very small percentage is usable.

Given that Alan is trying to produce a CD that is marketable to a modern generation I can sympathise with him but there are other valuable functions of recordings that have the occasional bum note, dog bark or police siren in among the music.

In the mid 70s the most frequent (and reliably scheduled) bush dances in SE Oz were the Monaro Folk Music Society's monthly dances in Canberra's Yarralumla Woolshed; woolshed dances feature prominently in SE Oz social traditions. After the dance it was usual for singers and musos to repair to someone's place for a session into the small hours. Seeral of these were held at Mike Jackson's place in Higgins and Tony Suttor brought his 5" Sony R-R recorder along to at least two of these and taped quite a lot of music. While the materials were good the setup was rather basic so, while the music was clear, the quality wasn't really acceptable on a commercial basis.

These subsequently appeared, and were passed from person to person, as cassettes colloquially known as "The Higgins Tapes" (they were still surfacing more than a decade later) with the advice, "If you learn these tunes, you'll be able to join 60% of tunes at almost any folk session in the country." They were almost all dance tunes and formed the basis of many brackets played by bush dance bands all over Oz. They also featured prominently in Talunga Music's "Begged, Borrowed and Stolen", a published (and still available) collection of sheet music for tunes that have the same function.

Almost every player on the original tapes (me included) has had a fine career in the (mainly) Oz folk music scene but none, to my knowledge, has ever sought payment or even acknowledgement; nobody made any money out of the production or distribution of the tapes and everybody regarded their distribution as a way of getting people playing. Even now, I can wander into the Session Bar at the National and recognise some brackets as having had their origin on those tapes so their quality didn't appear to hamper their function one little bit.

But, as I commented above, some cultural contexts encourage this while others encourage other aspects. I recently saw a couple of animated cartoons that some Mudcatters might recognise; "Creature Comforts" uses 'vox pops on many topics and puts people's voices with clay animations. The series recorded in the UK (which I suspect is the original) credits "The voices of the great British public" while the series recorded in the US lists the names of all the people whose voice was used.

Horses for courses. All power to your elbow, Bob.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:32 PM

Mark ... YES I KNOW, I KNOW!!! The minute I posted that I said someting like &^^$#$#%&^# ... or words to that effect. Thank you. bob, who is hanging his head in deep shame and looking at the gravel at his feet!

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:59 PM

By the way, Bob, I'm Mark Ross, the bum in Eugene, Oregon(formerly of Butte, Montana). The editor of Sing Out! is Mark MOSS.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM

Well . . . yeah.

If one is combing through old open-reel or cassette tapes of song fests, hoots, and such in an effort to extract pristine recordings of songs sung by a particular singer or group of singers to put on a CD, one might be faced by a great deal of frustration. However, if what one is trying to do is preserve recordings of songs, people, and the events at which they occurred, then the opening door with new people arriving, the barking dog, a bit of conversation, especially that which occurred between songs, wise-cracks and by-play, is all part of that event.

In some cases, one wishes to preserve such a recording "unsanitized."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

In the process of putting together Anglo, English and now Duet(Concertina) Internationals I have listened to hours upon hours of archive cassette recordings and sadly a very small percentage is usable.It is extremely frustrating listening to some remarkable playing with someone suddenly opening and closing a squeaky door,large objects being dropped to the floor,a dog barking,a child crying,a coughing fit and talking,which is just part of the frustration.Even without one of these noises the artist can make a mistake.With modern equipment this can be sorted out, the mistake erased and a passage, where he or she does get it right, can be inserted in.Some remarkable work was done to get Andrew Blakeny Edwards tracks suitable for the Anglo Collection, the original was nothing like the final recording used.
Continuous background noise can also be taken out such as humming ,crackling or even tape disintegration by modern computer methods.Likewise 78 recordings by using different methods like special needles or computer cleaning,can almost bring these recordings back to their original state.One of the most important things to remember is that the noise before the recording starts MUST be retained.This is used in the computer process and any hum crackle etc can be programmed into the computer from that section to remove that noise.
Jim Ward Crawley Sussex is an expert at this sort of work and did a wonderful job with the old archive recordings.
The method I use which may help is that on each cassette I write down those recordings (either by track number or by tune name )which are possibilities.I assure you after a few hours of it the good recordings stand out.When all the tapes have been listened to.Just extract those ones which you liked and then listen to the best as a package.Once again certain tracks will outshine the others.In this way you finish up with a final line up and it is then that recording doctoring may be required.
I hope this info help a little bit for those of you contemplating this type of project.
Al

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:02 AM

"You have to do it for yourself, to suit yourself. "
Absolutely - and for those you'll be giving the opportunity to hear the recordings in the future.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 01:17 AM

Thanks Maggie. In the next few days I'll be PMing you about these matters. I know you're sitting on your Father's collection, anticipating that moment in your life when you also have the necessary time to devote the archiving. I well remember the size of your Father's collection ... immense. I'm sure that over the many years John influenced me and guided me toward the path I'm on. (I miss him every day). Hugs ... Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:15 AM

I hope this thread won't actually close, other questions or remarks may come in that are useful. But clearly you've taken this under advisement and gotten the reinforcement you needed.

Good luck, Bob. You probably made the best choices overall. (Especially about "asking family." That's a landmine if there ever was one.) You have to do it for yourself, to suit yourself.

Maggie

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:45 PM

O.K. It's time for me to bring this thread to a close, a conclusion. I appreciate ALL the input this topic received. It's clear to me that it did resonate with many people. And like I expected, the comments were all over the map.

The comments I received were an education in themselves ... that's one of the values of an open discussion. Here's where I am tonight:

1. I am putting aside ALL questions/concerns regarding legal issues, copyrites, etc. My efforts will result in NO GAIN for myself. I'm not "selling" anything. I appreciated Utah Phillips comment (thanks Mark Ross ... "if you wanna' make $1,000 in folk music, start with #2,000).

2. Some one said, several folks actually, "just do it and worry about the details later."

3. A lot of folks mentioned how polite it would be to get "family permission" before I archived the material. I'm now saying that I won't bother. These are MY tapes, I made them, I have them, and I'm going to archive them and place them in the public domain for future reference. If family members, or anyone else objects ... SO SUE ME!

4. I am making myself available to other people in the Seattle area who are seriously interested in these archiving issues. At my age of 171 years, I know there are now many other song collectors out there that are dealing with the same questions.

I had a conversation with Pete Seeger probably 13 years ago and that talk led to a conversation with Mark Ross, of Sing Out magazine. We were all talking about these archive questions. Where do we leave the stuff we've garnered ... if I just leave it to my kids, it'll just end up in the dump ... what should we do with it? On and on and on.

So ... I have decided to archive it as best I see fit. I'll now put on my hard hat, steel toed boots, flak jacket, scout out the back door, and hold my breath for your comments. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 04:29 PM

SRS ... "Printer Friendly" eh? If I'd had access to that years ago I could probably have saved my first marriage! Ya think? bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 04:20 PM

Bob, if you go to the top and click on "printer friendly" then you'll get all of the posts in a manner that is easy to print out, without all of the html and busy message breaks.

Make your notes then come back and post the pared down remarks (you can save the printer friendly version as a text file on your computer and edit it, you know).

SRS

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 02:35 PM

I've been trying to wrap up this thread witha kind of summation, but as you all know, MC has been more down than up lately. Patience is required ... NOT my strong suit. In fact, I don't even think I have a STRONG SUIT. Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 03:20 PM

Oops--I see that Art has been here. Well, I hope he keeps participating!

SRS

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 12:06 PM

Bob, when Dad died I spoke with several people and had some useful advice offered. Three different universities in the region have programs that would be good repositories--the University of Washington for one, and I think it was UBS where Phil housed his collection, and there is also a good program in Calgary. A little far away, but also one to consider. There is the more generalized music collection there at the Seattle Center/Worlds Fair site (I know Dad would cringe to think I donated his material to go in the same location as Jimi Hendrix, but hey, the world is changing).

The point is to not lose track of it in a dusty musty mildewy corner of your garage somewhere. Make your intents known to people and make arrangements for someone to do something with it if you don't get a chance to finish the work you're planning on.

I hope Art Thieme will notice this thread, because he has been doing exactly what you're talking about with his collection. He took about a year, I think, and put it all from cassettes and other media onto CDs.

If you donate a collection to someplace like a museum or university, they have tons of stuff, so unless you give them some money (an endowment) to move it to the front of the list, the collection might not be processed and available to the public and to researchers for a long time to come. So if there is a way to use some of the material in the collection to raise money for that endowment, I think you should explore the possibilities of permission and keeping it all legal and ethical.

I had started processing Dad's collection several years ago, and then we had a burglary here that threw all of that work into chaos. I was sidetracked, but have, through the process of de-cluttering the house (you've probably noticed that steady trickle of discussion down in the BS section) have been making a good workspace to resume that one of these days. And then I'll compare notes with you on recordings. We may have some duplicates, because I know people gave Dad tapes and I know he gave people copies.

SRS

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:29 AM

To M. Ted ... Thanks for your thoughts. I'm now pondering several options I have available for the final placement of my collection. None of my children are interested in preserving, or maintaining, the collection. And it is a huge responsibility. There are several local organizations that are beginning to step up to the plate, as well as at least two national groups.

At the moment, I don't know where I'm going to place it ... I'll be looking forward to the day when I can pass it on to someone/something responsible. Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM

I just re-read your original post, and have been thinking about what a wonderful and amazing collection that you have amassed. It has a great historical value, and it is a history that hasn't been very much told.

I hope I don't need to tell you that you should keep the original tapes. No matter how good the digital recording may be, it is just a picture of the original.

Also, there's a lot more work than just transcribing--the recordings will have to be documented--I know that people will have hundreds of questions about every song--

My suggestion is that you should ultimately shoot for putting the collection online, in the fashion of the Library of Congress--it would mean sending out letters and getting permission, etc, but it would also mean that we all could hear what you've got--

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 09:50 AM

To Guest Jon ... I too have seen on several occasions where the presence of a recorder stifled the music. But I have seen the instrument cases of the musicians close ONLY when the musician considered himself a "professional," meaning that he was quite above such common taping. Bob Nelson

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:48 AM

I'd think, go with the peoples wishes on 1&2. I'm not suggesting you seek permission from everyone concerned but if someone did object, I think dropping that song would be in order.

I'd guess a key point in how to think about it could be what the terms were when you recorded. I've been in a few sessions for example where there is a recorder(s) running but even though I have one and use it once in while, I find their presence a touch off putting. My general belief though is that people (including me) want to get the tune down for learning within the group and the thing is fundamentally a private affair. Personally, if I believed my every bum note, etc. was to be recorded for public posterity, I'd down tools and drink at the bar for the rest of the night.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:04 AM

Here in the West of Ireland we are in the process of establishing a county-wide heritage organisation, including a sound and manuscript archive and a reference library, mainly of traditional material (music, song, story, lore, oral history etc). The current popularity of and serious respect for Irish music has made it possible to apply for and get substantial government grants for such projects. We don't know how this will be effected by the current economic situation, but to date we have purchased a house and enough equipment to get us up and running. We have also been awarded a number of grants for acquiring and archiving both sound, manuscript an published material.
Some of us have been acquiring collections of recordings for decades for various workshops and clubs we have been involved in and we have donated copies to the new organisation, which has enabled it to hit the ground running - so to speak. Local people have been magnificent in donating private recordings, photographs etc to our rapidly expanding collection.
Hopefully, some time this year we will be up and running, with a fully operational and equipped visitors centre and access to our collection through our web-site (once we have sorted out the practical and 'ethical' nuts-and-bolts).
There is a Dublin based organisation whose brief is to assist in the setting up of organisations such as ours; without their help we would still be floundering in the shallows.
Who said folk music is just about having fun and getting pissed each week!!!
My wife and I have spent the last thirty odd years recording some of the last of the older generation of singers, storytellers and musicians. The abiding impression we have come away with during that time has been the breathtaking and eye-watering generosity of those people, many of them on and below the poverty line, with their time, material, knowledge, opinions and experiences. Without them, and people like them, we would have nothing. I can never remember anybody we met saying "you can't have that, that's mine".
In the light of their attitude to what they have given us, I find the idea of somebody copyrighting an 'arrangement' of a folk song extremely distasteful, dishonest and above all, incredibly petty (are these songs really worth so much as to have to lock them away in a safe?) All folk music, by its very nature, is somebody's arrangement. If our field singers, storytellers and musicians had taken the line of 'ownership' displayed here and elsewhere our songs and music would have disappeared centuries ago; as Norfolk traditional singer Walter Pardon once told us "They're not my songs, they're everybodys".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:02 PM

As one who occasionally recorded sessions (singing as well as instrumental) and was occasionally recorded by others in such circumstances I've found the thread interesting.

From Bob's original post, as well as some subsequent ones, it seems clear that participants were all aware they were being recorded; on that basis one could reasonably infer that implicit "permission to record" had been granted by all the active participants. Similarly, an implicit "permission to distribute, for personal use rather than for commercial gain", may also be inferred.

So long as the material is used for "personal" (rather than "commercial") purposes, Bob would be staying on the right side of Oz law as I understand it but, as has been pointed out (by McGrath?) there is a chasm between ethical propriety and legal rectitude. Oz law currently allows copying of audio and visual sources from one format to another, providing it is for personal use or for some types of educational use.

Someone suggested keeping tracks separate. While this might allow convenient search routines and might also allow compliance with some aspects of Oz copyright law applying to copying, it seems to me that many "students" of such material would benefit from having the context of tracks preserved; knowing which items were associated at particular times with others or with particular sessions or groups of participants is the stuff of academic excitement.

Being associated with academic activities I suppose I'm biased but I'd strongly recommend depositing a copy of your archived material in a place that allows others to access it for research purposes; in Oz we are lucky to have such institutions as the National Film and Sound Archive (although it goes under a "sexier" name these days) and the Percy Grainger Museum; the latter might be a serious contender with the Smithsonian for "earliest ethnographic recording" as Grainger was one of the first using wax cylinders for field recordings of music us folkies are interested in.

But there also seems to be different (and national) cultural blinkers applied to archiving; google "auslii" in Oz for a list of everything legal in Oz but not replicable with US material.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

What a time capsule! I just finished listening to a recording I made in 1957 ... I didn't remember that I had it. This was of a man who took me under his wing when I was 13.

Have you noticed that I'm NOT mentioning ANY NAMES on this thread ... there's a reason for that.

To hear my mentor's voice again brought me to tears. As Alan Day just said in the previous posting ... these private collections are treasures. Bob