Ethics in archiving?

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:44 PM

Ron ... I appreciate your input. If the person is dead, and the recording is of material clearly in "the public domain", why is a release required? bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:39 PM

It makes no difference if the musicians and singers were paid or not - amateur versus pro has no bearing.   

Unless you have a signature or other proof that the person performing gave permission, that person still retains rights to the performance.

Sharing those performances - with or without pay, is illegal.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:36 PM

Ahhh Howard I was going to suggest county record offices. I started a thread a few months back on a subject approaching just this. Unfortunately some reocord offices don't want to know, because they just don't have the space and/or the staff to deal with them. Luckily Essex Record Office is fairly accommodating. Yeah I work there.

I would suggest to Deckman if you are recording for posterity make your first copy on high quality archive CDs. They last longer and if you find an outfit to house the collection they will likely require this.

Now I need to take some of my lunch time to have a listen to those tapes from the Chelmsford Folk Club.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:25 PM

Some years ago when I was a floor singer at Chelmsford Folk Club, there was a regular who would always sit in the front row with a tape recorder to record the evening. Sadly, he is now dead but his collection has been given to Essex County Record office where it is being digitised.

Another regular was a radio journalist who was always recording performances for both professional purposes and personal interest. When he had a clear-out he too donated his collection to ECR.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:19 PM

"PUBLISH AND BE DAMNED!" That would be a great name for a pubishing company! bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: michaelr
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

Rule of thumb: It's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM

Have to admit, like the others, in all my years of recording and publishing online and in books only once have I met with an objection from a family of a recorded person and that was very understandable.
It was of a very young singer and he still had young brothers who might have come across his singing online. We of course respected the wishes of the family. Other than that family members are almost always delighted to know their relative was being honoured in this way.
Another way out is to publish and be damned, then if anyone objects you simply delete what they object to.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:49 PM

What you decide to archive is really a matter of judgement based on how the recordings were made and what you feel the recordees would feel about the use you intend to put them to.
Personally, if the people on the recordings had no objection in the first place, I have never understood why family members should have any say in the matter beyond being offered the courtesy of being informed what is to happen to them. There again, in thirty odd years of collecting we have never met with any objections from family members.
In the extremely unlikely event of money being involved, we have always donated earnings into the setting up and running costs of archives.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:35 PM

Even amateurs (or their estates) are entitled to a cut, if there is any income involved. There is also the copyright issue, for all their arrangements and original works. Real collectors/archivers have performers sign releases detailing how the recordings can be used. Failing this, you're always putting yourself at legal risk trying to make such recordings available, even at no charge and for what you consider "educational" use. You may have to let the recordings languish until all copyrights have expired (long after you have.) Sorry, but the laws were designed for the benefit of media conglomerates, not for the good of the public.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:19 PM

Professional vs amateur. Where do you draw the line? We were all "amateurs" when we started, but many of us went on to "professional" status: records, concert tours, films, radio and TV. But these were just the "friends" I grew up up with. Bob

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:08 PM

I'd say that the ethics of this is that the preservation of the recordings is of far far greater importance than any objections.

If you were in the UK I'd suggest EFDSS or similar.

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:03 PM

Have you actually struck any objections?
I would think if anyone had recordings from way back that included me or my husband or any family member, I'd be tickled pink that they were being revived. As long as you're not aiming to sell them and get rich from it while I'm living in poverty....
We have old tape recordings from the 60s and gradually they're finding their way onto CDs but apart from the nostalgia bit, they're pretty crappy - amateur hour stuff!
Just ask the people involved if you can find them. Most wouldn't object. The Tony Rose project grew out of a request for old recordings and his family really wanted to do it.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Ethics in archiving?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:57 PM

Deckman Bob--

Are (were) the people you recorded professional musicians who were paid for their performances, and who would expect royalties? Or are (were) they amateurs performing for fun.

If you plan to give copies away, it would be a courtesy to check with the performers if possible.

I would think that this could be a wonder archive of a period mostly forgotten. Perhaps a University folk music archive would like it.

I say this not as a lawyer--heaven forfend--but as one who would like to be so treated

I, myself, have started recording my LPs to CDs/MP3s for my own use.
I have also plan to prepare CDs based on subject or type of music to listen to in that best of all venues...my car

I had hoped to provide these to a local folk music show, much as an oldies folk show, but alas he has been 86ed by the station and has not found another outlet. As they pay BMI, ASCAP fees, I figured it would be okay to give them to him...not sell.

Subject: Ethics in archiving?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:33 PM

I want to pose a question for open discussion: What are some of the ethical issues involved in archiving?

To explain: I started tape recording folk music sessions when I was teenager, 150 years ago. I recorded hoots, jam session, private one on one song swaps. I used to drag an 80 pound WebCore tape recorder with me all over the map. Now I'm starting a 20 year dream of listening to, editing, identifying, and eventually downloading all this material onto archivel quality CD's. I've got about 300 reel to reel tapes, 400 cassette tapes, and 100 vinyl records.

As I get into the material, I'm realizing several things: most of the people I've recorded have passed on. I'm sitting on treasures, but mainly to a select few, survivng friends. My purpose of this project is to 1. save the material and catalog it 2. make playable CD copies for my personal use 3. make a few playable copies for surviving friends 4. pass on my collection for posterity.

Here's two questions to get the discussion started:

1. What should I do if some surving family members object to my project?

2. What should I do, what's the right thing to do, if say one member of a recorded duo is still alive and objects to my efforts?

I look forward to your thoughtful answers. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson