BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools

Subject: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:25 PM

Just got this from the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7836875.stm

Can't wait to hear the cries of outrage and indignation about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:35 PM

They should round 'em all up and take them to an island surrounded by sharks, then leave them there!

The B*stards!

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:50 PM

Maybe if our governments were supporting the Talebam and supplying them with arms...

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:55 PM

It is infuriating. By the way, arer there any women Taleban? I know, I know, they respect women so much they are keeping them safely at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:12 PM


Can't wait to hear the cries of outrage and indignation about this.

Does being so sarcastic make you feel better, Teribus?

Somewhere in the archives is a copy of an op/ed piece I wrote back in the mid-90s about the "Murderous Oppression" of women in Afghanistan. At that time, not many of the general public knew what was going on. It was just as bad, if not worse, than now. So, I don't know what will make it better. Bush hasn't done anything to improve it; I am not sure anyone from the West can, but as humans on the same planet, I know we have to care.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

The beliefs are of the more conservative Pushtun people, who do not want modern or western education. The Taliban- younger, more militant Pushtun- represent the beliefs of many Pushtun; just how are you going to round up more than a million people with biblical age beliefs. They will continue to fight for their beliefs.

This people live in the tribal region of Pakistan and throughout much of Afganistan.
The ignorance of western governments is abyssmal and completely mis-guided. If the West wants to maintain a little western enclave in Kabul, where the brand of Islam that prevails is different, the conservative Pushtun may permit it, but trying to bring this people under the western yoke will only result in more decades of violence.

If these people are left alone in their territory, as Pakistan has generally done with them, modern thought will evolve gradually if it is not forced down their throats.

The comment by McGrath has merit.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

Errr....Israel has been blowing up schools too...with people sheltering in them!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:22 PM

Q, that's right. It is folly to think a Western government can go in and fix something that has been going on for hundreds of years. I don't get McGrath's comment, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Alice
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:48 PM

Well, in fact, The Taliban is a rather new male religious cult that was formed as a result of the Russian occupation and the Afghan civil war, influenced by . It is far more radical than what most Afghans want.

I am one of many women around the world who have been aware of the rise of the Taliban in the 90's and what they began doing to women in Afghanistan.

Here is a timeline of their formation and rise:

The Taliban - history and resurgence



snip

"Groups of taliban ("religious students") were loosely organized on a regional basis during the occupation and civil war. Although they represented a potentially huge force, they didn't emerge as a united entity until the taliban of Kandahar made their move in 1994. In late 1994, a group of well-trained taliban were chosen by Pakistan to protect a convoy trying to open a trade route from Pakistan to Central Asia. "

snip

"While the Taliban present themselves as a reform movement, they have been criticized by Islamic scholars as being poorly educated in Islamic law and history—even in Islamic radicalism, which has a long history of scholarly writing and debate."

---
From my home town of Bozeman, Montana, Greg Mortenson has been working to set up schools for girls in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Mortenson advocates girls' education as the top priority to promote economic development, peace and prosperity, and says, "you can drop bombs, hand out condoms, build roads, or put in electricity, but until the girls are educated a society won't change".

Mortenson's web sites:

Book tour, reviews and media on www.threecupsoftea.com
Central Asia Institute website www.ikat.org
Pennies For Peace website www.penniesforpeace.org

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Alice
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:56 PM

Three Cups of Tea (book) click

Central Asia Institute

Pennies For Peace, A U.S. penny in Afghanistan can buy a pencil

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Alice
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM

For the cynics reading this:

"On August 14th, 2008, Pakistan's government announced on its Independence Day, that Greg Mortenson will receive Pakistan' highest civil award, Sitara-e-Pakistan ("Star of Pakistan") for his courage and humanitarian effort to promote education, and literacy in rural areas for the last fifteen years. Pakistan's President will confer the award on March 23rd, 2009, in a official ceremony in Islamabad."

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:04 PM

Steve Coll's Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001 offers revealing details of the CIA's involvement in the evolution of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in the years before the September 11 attacks. From the beginning, Coll shows how the CIA's on-again, off-again engagement with Afghanistan after the end of the Soviet war left officials at Langley with inadequate resources and intelligence to appreciate the emerging power of the Taliban. He also demonstrates how Afghanistan became a deadly playing field for international politics where Soviet, Pakistani, and U.S. agents armed and trained a succession of warring factions. At the same time, the book, though opinionated, is not solely a critique of the agency. Coll balances accounts of CIA failures with the success stories, like the capture of Mir Amal Kasi. Coll, managing editor for the Washington Post, covered Afghanistan from 1989 to 1992. He demonstrates unprecedented access to records of White House meetings and to formerly classified material, and his command of Saudi, Pakistani, and Afghani politics is impressive. He also provides a seeming insider's perspective on personalities like George Tenet, William Casey, and anti-terrorism czar, Richard Clarke ("who seemed to wield enormous power precisely because hardly anyone knew who he was or what exactly he did for a living"). Coll manages to weave his research into a narrative that sometimes has the feel of a Tom Clancy novel yet never crosses into excess. While comprehensive, Coll's book may be hard going for those looking for a direct account of the events leading to the 9-11 attacks. The CIA's 1998 engagement with bin Laden as a target for capture begins a full two-thirds of the way into Ghost Wars, only after a lengthy march through developments during the Carter, Reagan, and early Clinton Presidencies. But this is not a critique of Coll's efforts; just a warning that some stamina is required to keep up. Ghost Wars is a complex study of intelligence operations and an invaluable resource for those seeking a nuanced understanding of how a small band of extremists rose to inflict incalculable damage on American soil. --Patrick O'Kelley

(From an Amazon.com review of the book)

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:09 PM

What they're doing is an outrage. But at least they're not blowing them up while they're full of children.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:17 PM

What I meant kat was that, if we were backing the Taliban and supplying them with arms, in the way we are with Israel, you can be sure there'd be one hell of a lot of outrage and indignation about it.

Though I don't know - after all when our governments were backing Saddam Hussein in his war of aggression against Iran and his treatment of the Kurds, protest against that was pretty marginalised. Mostly it was just the same kind of people who make a fuss about Iraq or Gaza...

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:27 PM

Ah, thanks, McGrath. Sorry I was so dull.:-)

Alice, that is excellent! I didn't mean to sound as though we shouldn't try to change things or help, just that, like in the Middle East, there are tensions between so many different factions, many of which have gone on for hundreds of years, it is folly to think we can bomb them, etc, and make a change, esp. a positive change. Mortensen is to be commended.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:31 PM

It's ALL an outrage. Including what Israel is doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:18 PM

I'm sure I remember a long trail of condemnation of many things that the Taleban imposed on Afghanistan - the destruction of ancient treasures, the repression of women, the suppression of the wishes of the people by force.

But I'm not sure that the evils of the Taleban religious lunatics justified bombing a whole country back into the stone age, and although that bombing brought down the Taleban government, I wonder if it has actually entrenched the Taleban as a symbol of the resistance of the Afghans to the colonial invasions of the UK and US.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 10:15 PM

Extract from broadcast. Barney Porter, ABC (Australia) reporter:
"Professor Akbar Ahmed also says he's concerned by a wider trend he's noticed throughout the Muslim world."

Islamic scholar and professor Akbar Ahmed: "There's a very high level of anti-Americanism. It's largely emotional, but it's also tied up to the situation in Iraq, in Afganistan, and the feeling that the tide is turning.
This is a very important point. I don't think it is fully understood here in the west.
There is a feeling, particularly [among] those who are educated in madrassas, the middle classes, the lower middle classes, the people in the streets that the tide is turning, and if they continue taking the offensive, western forces will soon be pulling out."

Failure to relate Taliban activity and growth to the beliefs of the Pushtun Sunnis will be the major cause of failure of western influence in the Tribal areas of Pakistan and Afganistan. The small Shia enclave in Kabul cannot hold out without decades of occupation and support by western arms.


http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1644595.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Alice
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 10:34 PM

The Bush administration failure to understand the culture of the middle east and to even remove experienced diplomatic personnel who did understand that culture, was all part of their stupid rush to war in Iraq.
Bush and his idiots. What carnage they have spread.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:25 AM

In the 19th century (1839-1842), Great Britain tried to control Afganistan. The entire first mission contingent was slaughtered as they tried to leave (one survivor). Akbar and the Afghan tribal leaders previously had given safe passage to the women who had accompanied the mission to Kabul. The widow of the mission head, McNaughten, later wrote a book about it that still is worth reading.

An interesting period in the history of the region, perhaps little real relevance to the present, except the old story of outsiders attempting to impose their will and beliefs on a people.

Now Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles of the British Foreign Office reportedly said that the campaign against the Taliban insurgents would fail and that the best hope was to install an acceptable dictator in Kabul.
The British government has tried to back away, but messages to the French from Cowper-Coles partly support the story. In a coded message, he told them "The foreign forces are ensuring the survival of a regime which would collapse without them...They are slowing down and complicating an eventual exit from the crisis, which will probably be dramatic," the Ambassador was quoted as saying. He also said "the American strategy is doomed to fail."

Story in The Times, Oct. 2, 2008: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4860080.ece

The British are leaving. In the meantime more Americans and Canadians will die in a hopeless cause. Canadians seem ready to pull out also.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:01 AM

"The Taliban are one of the mujahideen ("holy warriors" or "freedom fighters") groups that formed during the war against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan (1979-89). After the withdrawal of Soviet forces, the Soviet-backed government lost ground to the mujahideen."

From the link supplied by Alice. It is incorrect, the Taliban as such never fought the Soviets, they were not formed until after the end of the Soviet occupation. They were formed in 1994 by Mullah Omar to fight the violence and corruption of the warlords of formed Mujahideen groups. They were never supplied, trained, or supported by the CIA and no evidence exists to substantiate any contention that they did.

For any who actually read the opening link, the schools that have been blown up and ordered closed are in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. The Taleban who have ordered these actions in Swat Province are not the "elected" Government and are formed by Taleban from Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Oh, Q, "The British are leaving. In the meantime more Americans and Canadians will die in a hopeless cause. Canadians seem ready to pull out also.".

The British are leaving Iraq, they will shortly be increasing troop numbers in Afghanistan, our commitment to the UN mission in Afghanistan remains the same. The Canadians may well vote to end their participation that is entirely up to them. Personally I would hate to see them go they have done amazingly well, but that has come at one hell of a cost and I do not believe that anyone would compalin if they withdrew, when other NATO member states have not pulled their weight. The 2500 troops making up the Canadian contingent would most likely be replaced by US and UK troops.

Things in Afghanistan are a damn sight better now than they have ever been in the last thirty years, and they are continually improving.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:11 AM

Ah, I see that Teribus is trolling again.

It's Taliban, not Taleban.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:14 AM

Taliban supposedley means "teacher", no? They've certainly disqualified themselves for that label.

Religious fanatics (any fanatics, actually) should never be allowed political power.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:59 AM

Can be either Taleban or Taliban SRS, but still doesn't alter the fact that they were not formed until after the end of the Soviet occupation and that they formed to fight a "civil war".

I think that Taleban (Or Taliban for SRS) actually means "Student".

This is a problem for Pakistan, as a nuclear power, the Government of Pakistan must ensure that it, and it alone, controls what happens within its borders, not groups of religious fascists or tribal leaders with a political or religious agenda. The whole of Pakistan must come under the governance and rule of law and order of the elected Government, the sooner that this is achieved the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:58 AM

Until the women of the Middle East are able to be seen and treated on an equal basis to men, things ain't going to improve. You cannot have a population where one sex is totally in control of the other. What can you do with men who don't want women to be educated? They are so fearful of their women beginning to realise that there is another way, another life...one that doesn't revolve around them...

Do you remember thaat photo of the beautiful child with the incredible sea green eyes, that was taken by Steve McMurray?

Sharbat Gula

Here she is now:

Sharbat Gula's Story - 20 years on

From that article above:

"Education, it is said, is the light in the eye. There is no such light for her. It is possibly too late for her 13-year-old daughter as well, Sharbat Gula said. The two younger daughters still have a chance."


Blowing up girl's schools is the decimation of freedom for a whole new generation of women.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:58 AM

Think of all the things that happened in the twentieth century, all the absolutely astounding advances that were made in practically every field of human endeavour.

The most important, the most far reaching - The emancipation of women - Almost overnight we doubled our capacity and capability for improvement. Now think what the effect would have been if it had been embraced and undertaken world-wide.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:10 PM

aye so did the Jews in Gaza now how can anyone justify that, the killing of innocent men, women and children and hamas as well, and yet there was hardly anyone condeming this country Israel and yet they get away with it everytime and it has to stop.

and the Jews also blow up hospitals and mosuges as well, and yet America and the western countries just sat back and allowed it to happen.

why was that

I just hope the President Obamha does something about it or else.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:39 PM

On the BBC today it was suggested that the Afghani Taliban considered the followers of the leader in the Swat valley was too extreme in destroying schools.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM

"aye so did the Jews in Gaza now how can anyone justify that, the killing of innocent men, women and children and hamas as well, and yet there was hardly anyone condeming this country Israel and yet they get away with it everytime and it has to stop."

It is totally different, although equally distressing.

If Israel had never been attacked, ever, they would have lived their whole lives in peace, alongside other nations. But they were never allowed to do that, and so for decades they have been attacked repeatedly by numerous nations. They've had their own people killed, until they have almost 'mentally' broken and we have reached this terrible stage.

The Israelis have never attacked their own schools, or blown them up, in the sole purpose of stopping their women from being free. They have never demanded that their women hide away from life, dress in boiling hot burkhas, keep their bodies and faces shut away from the world, because they are nothing more than items which 'belong' to their men. The Israelis treat their women as equal citizens, and without them, they'd not have the country they have. They thrive on education, but have never been allowed to just 'thrive' in life.

Some of the countries who attack Israel see their women as something to be owned and controlled. Sometimes, they are little better off than slaves. They often get beaten and some live a very hard life. They have been kept down for centuries.

The Taleban are people who want to control their women and keep them down for centuries to come, and they will stop at nothing to ensure they are kept from learning that the world has moved on from medieval times.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:07 PM

Read that article more closely, as it gives the dates of the Soviet occupation, 79-89, NOT that the Taliban existed since '79.

Taliban does not mean teacher, it means student.

See the timeline here.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:13 PM

Some of the Taliban had been mujahideen, such as one of the Taliban commanders, Jalaluddin Haqqani, who joined the Taliban in 1995.

Muhammad Omar
Founder of the Taliban
Born: 1962
Birthplace: Uruzgan province, south Afghanistan

Son of a poor farmer, Omar grew up near the southern city of Kandahar. An ethnic Pashtun and a Sunni Muslim, in the early 1980s Omar studied in religious schools in Quetta, Pakistan. Although he is known as a mullah, a religious teacher, he is not a cleric. While fighting the Soviets, Omar reportedly lost an eye, which is now stitched shut. After the collapse of the Soviet-backed government in 1992, civil war erupted between various warlords and factions. In an effort to establish order, Omar founded the Taliban, which quickly captured much of the country, including the capital, Kabul, in 1996. Since then Omar has been the leading member of the Taliban's six-member ruling council. Known as "Commander of the Faithful," Omar is reportedly married to one of Osama bin Laden's daughters, and is believed to have close ties with the Pakistani intelligence service.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:37 PM

Well you can't have it both ways....You can't assist the setting up of an Islamic republic in Iraq, then complain about the behaviour of Islamists in Afghanistan.
Or maybe you can!

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:44 PM

We are reaping what we have sown...

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:03 PM

Over the last two days I have been watching a documentary from the BBC--courtesy of YouTube postings--about the ingathering of all the world's knowlege by medieval Islam, and their discoveries in math, science and medicine. Islamic scholars were about 300 years ahead of European discoveries.

How damned ignorant the Taliban are! They denigrate, defile, and destroy their own cultural achievements, to say nothing of that of others over the years.

If anyone is interested in the videos they are at:
       http://uk.youtube.com/profile?user=idStarfleets&view=playlists

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:19 PM

These people want education. They want clean water, better health care, better farming techniques, better roads to get their crops to market. To say that they should be left alone to live as they have for thousand of years is a form of racism in my opinion.
Alice is right. What Greg Mortenson's group is doing in the Mountains of Pakistan and Afghanistan has meant significant improvement in the lives of the people who live there, so much so that tribemen from remote villages seek him out requesting that schools be built there. These same people protect these schools from attack, because they value them.
I am not saying that these people will not continue to live their lives in accordance with Islamic Law...that will not change. But these schools, which improve the

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:21 PM

The thing is they are "reformers" analogous in some ways to the Christian reformers of the 16th century. They believe much of the past of Islam as something to reject, as the reformers believed in regard to much of the Christian past.

That's an analogy, not an identity, and like all analogies shouldn't be stretched too far. (But it's worth noting that in the Islamic calender, the current year is 1430.)

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:24 PM

Lost part of my post for some reason. Here's the whole thing


These people want education. They want clean water, better health care, better farming techniques, better roads to get their crops to market. To say that they should be left alone to live as they have for thousand of years is a form of racism in my opinion.
Alice is right. What Greg Mortenson's group is doing in the Mountains of Pakistan and Afghanistan has meant significant improvement in the lives of the people who live there, so much so that tribemen from remote villages seek him out requesting that schools be built there. These same people protect these schools from attack, because they value them.
I am not saying that these people will not continue to live their lives in accordance with Islamic Law...that will not change. But these schools, which improve the quality of life of these people, make a real differnce in erasing the very hardship and ignorance that breed hate in the madrassas.
Do yourself a favor. Read Three Cups of Tea, and have your eyes opened.

Alice...the last trip to Bozeman I dropped off a box of donuts to the CAI offices, and they couldn't have been happier to receive them.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:51 PM

McGrath, I'm glad that's only an analogy. Does that mean we have to wait about 3 or 4 hundred more years before the Taliban join the modern world? I hope to live long enough to see it;)

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 09:50 PM

10 Taleban Arrested in Acid Attack

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 05:58 AM

Oh my God!

These evil b*stards should be hanged from the highest post! I'm sorry but to let people like that live is completely and utterly beyond me. You will never de-programme them, they are like mad dogs..and should be treated accordingly.

Those poor, poor girls! No doubt they'll be scarred for life, simply for going to school.

The depth of evil behind the brain that thought that 'punishment' up is on the same parr with those who ran concentration camps.

They are way beyond sick. This has nothing to do with religion, but all to do with evil.

Sorry, but that has so upset me. Geez!

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:09 AM

the people of Israel stole Palestine and because of that they are the occpinan nation, the just went there and now they are causing starvtion, mayhem and murder in Gaza, the West bank and everwhere they go, they do not allow the people to farm their own land, the palastines have to ask the Israelis if they can farm their own land.

But if you back the Israelies then that's up to you

I back the Palestines and until Israel behaves like a democractic country then I'll back them after all Israel has broken 32 international laws, how many has the Palestines.

But there you go

I think it's terrible on both sides but it takes two to make a war and not just one.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:27 AM

I don't back either side. I want them all to live in peace.

I'm sure the Israelis wanted to live in peace, and still do. They have never been allowed to.   

However, this thread is about the Taleban, and having seen that link above, I am sickened by the kind of minds that would spray the faces of little girls with acid, purely because they were going to school.

I find it breathtakingly worrying that you've completely overlooked that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:56 AM

GOastfell:

I think you are mistaken about the "theft" of Palestine. I believe the mandate came from the Brits, IIRC.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 10:36 AM

Goatfell you really should do a bit of reading on the subject Israel did not steal Palestine.

And Amos - "I believe the mandate came from the Brits" - The former Ottoman Empire was broken up at the end of the Great War - to deal with the territories resulting from this break-up the League of Nations assigned two Mandated territories, one to be administered by the French, the other to be administered by the British.

The British "gave" no land to the Jews but did reserve 77% of the original mandated lands for exclusive settlement by the Arabs of Palestine. The remaining 23% could be settled by whoever wanted to settle there. Apart from Jews who had lived in the area known generally as Palestine for hundreds of years, there had been additional Jewish settlement through-out the latter part of the 19th century on land purchased from the Turks.

In setting up and administering both French and British Mandate areas it was the directive of the league of Nations that in each there should be "secular" areas where minorities could settle free from any religious persecution - The Lebanon in the French Mandated area and the new Palestine formed of the 23% section of the original British Mandated area, the part reserved solely for Arab settlement being renamed Trans-Jordan.

What is now known as Israel was defined by the UN in their partition plan of 1947, accepted by the Israelis and rejected by the Arabs of Palestine. Nobody "stole" anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:22 AM

The stealing of Palestine was done by Britain, on the basis of a mandate from League of Nations. That doesn't mean it wasn't stealing.

If you are given the job of looking after a territory on the understanding you are doing it for the benefit of the inhabitants - which is what "mandates" were supposed to be about, a kind of trustee role - that doesn't imply a right to pass it over to a third party.

But I don't really think Goatfell's contribution belongs in this thread. As it's written in fact I don't think it really belongs in the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM

But just as a point of fact Kevin, Britain did not give anything away to any third party, the League of Nations Mandate whereby Britain was responsible for the Mandated Territory expired 27 years after it was granted and in 1948 and Great Britain handed the territory back to the League of Nations' successor the United Nations. By that time there was an independent Iraq, the independent Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and Palestine.

It was the United Nations that proposed the two-state solution for Palestine in 1947 that the Jews agreed to and which the Arabs rejected.

So what was it that Britain "stole" in the 27 years that they were there?? Not a damn thing as far as I can make out.

Oh and Kevin this does belong in this thread, it is exactly what I thought would happen considering the subject matter - can't be seen to condemn fanatical Islamic "freedom fighters" so distract and deflect the arguement so we can all blame Jews, the big bad west and GWB - didn't take long did it??

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:54 AM

so I'm not allowed to give my opinnon then, and I agree with the pople about the Taleban but then as some of you said I'm not allowed to speak my mind then what happened to free speech and expressing my views, if you don't like it well tough, that's life you have your views and I have mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:56 AM

I'm not allowed to express my opinion then McGrath of Harlow.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:33 PM

This is what this thread has lead to

'Cause any Mick'll do, any black, any Jew
Any poor wee soul (bugger) who's not like you
They're down from the trees and they're up from the bogs
They come round here and they steal your job
They're all the bloody same - just no' the same as you
And when a scapegoat's what you need - any Mick'll do

Gerry Conlon stood before the jury
Before the judge in his gown and his wig
And the whole damn country was sure he was guilty
Even though the evidence was rigged
And when it all came out, it was the old familiar shout
He'll be guilty of something, sure as hell
What's a Paddy more or less, and anyway, he confessed
Stick him down in his cell, and his father as well

They told Annie Maguire she was a bomber
She heard every expert witness testify
That they'd found traces of gelignite upon her hands
And British justice would not be denied
And when they found they were wrong, it was the same old song
She's a danger to us all if she's free
With every day that goes by, we're more committed to the lie
So just leave her be and throw away the key

I hate every Jew who kicks a Palestinian
And every Nazi who ever kicked a Jew
I hate every stupid bigoted opinion
And if you don't hate them too, then I hate you
But what I hate most of all is the sheer damned gall
Of a system that never thinks twice
About furthering a grudge with a jury and a judge
And when they're loading the dice, tell me who pays the price
this is a song by Brian McNiell

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM

and that also goes for the Taleban, as the song says I hate every stupid opinnion, I might not have the right words to say but that is just me.
a simple person

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:01 PM

this is an e-mail that I got about Israel and Gaza, I know it has nothing to do with the Taleban but I signed to this cause, but some people on this thread will see it as a load of nonsense.

Dear friends,

Spread the word - as the awful Gaza death toll passes 1000, our Ceasefire Now petition is being delivered worldwide through ads, phone calls, and meetings with world leaders. We urgently need to reach 1 million signatures this week, act now and forward this email:


Sign Ceasefire Petition,
see our US ads!




Gaza is dying -- the battle has moved deep into its cities, jam-packed with 1.5 million civilians lacking food, medicine or water. President Bush undermined Thursday's United Nations ceasefire resolution and over 1000 people are now dead. The borders remain closed -- journalists can't get in, and desperate civilians can't get out.

---

I deleted the bulk of this copy-past post because it is a gross violation of the one-screen limit on non-music copy-paste posts. In addition, I can't figure out what a lengthy message on Gaza has to do with Afghanistan. You can find the deleted text in many locations - this Google search will take you there.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:25 PM

aye and then tell me about the poor people of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:27 PM

How dare those Israelis defend themselves! Killing men, women and children etc. How is this different from what we did in WW2? did the fire bombing of Dresden only kill soldiers? or the atom bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

As Jesus said, "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" Not you, Mother)

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:18 PM

"and that also goes for the Taleban, as the song says I hate every stupid opinnion, I might not have the right words to say but that is just me. a simple person"

Those in the Taleban who feel it is their right to spray acid on to the faces of little girls, as punishment for going to school and as a warning to other girls NOT to go to school, should lose their lives.
I am sick to death of religious fanatics and their evil actions!




Hammas have chosen, deliberately to store their weapons, and to hide out, amongst their people.   What bloody cowards!

Yasser Arafat grinned his way through life, recruiting suicide bombers, and sipping supper in The White House.

Hundreds, probably thousands of Israelis have been killed during this war. They've been killed on buses just going to work, or when walking down the streets, when the cars blew up, or those who have packed themselves with bombs decided to blow themselves and everyone around them to smithereens.

You cannot reason with brain washed terrorists.   You also have to protect your own people. I may not agree with what is happening out there, but by heavens I can see why Israel has finally flipped and had enough!

Where are the leaders of Hammas when Israel targets the houses where they KNOW that weapons are being held? Are they out there apologising on their knees to their people, for being such snivelling, evil men, putting their weapons amongst their people? No, they're too damned busy deciding whose house they'll hide them in next!!! And you know why?

Because they KNOW that Israel will *have* to target those places where the weapons are held, to protect their own...and they also know that it will cause maximum horror amongst their own people and out here in the bigger world...And THAT is why they do it! Because they're inhuman b*stards who don't give a damn about anyone.

If you are honourable, then when battle occurs, you do ALL YOU CAN to ensure your own people are protected, you do NOT bloody well fill their houses with explosives, knowing the enemy will blast them to kingdom come, unless you are the most evil and emotionally empty killing machine there has ever been.

Take a look at the photo of those little girls, Goatfell...and weep! Weep for their future! Weep for the years they'll spend with men who'll treat them like scum, like slaves! Weep for their lives which will never be their own...and then, weep for yourself for not being able to feel the outrage over the very people themselves who will do this to their OWN people!

These people are murderers! They are low down unfeeling, uncaring scum...and they should be treated accordingly. They are war criminals, sick minded bigots who DARE to use their religion as an excuse for inhuman behaviour.

The Palestinian people themselves need to turn against Hammas and realise what their elected leaders are doing to them in the name of power. The Israelis need to stop, pull out and try to find another way, but I doubt there is another way, because leaders who are so willing to have their own people blown up, are not going to suddenly become the Israeli's friends...

And I hope that Yasser Arafat has finally had his murderer's smile wiped off his face, wherever his soul may now be, IF he ever had a soul, that is.

As for the Taleban....any man who did that to my children, I would kill, without a moment's hesitation.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:36 PM

"Yasser Arafat grinned his way through life, recruiting suicide bombers, and sipping supper in The White House."

There is a lot of truth in that statement. Arafat was the most commonly hoasted "head of state" during the 8 years of Bill Clinton.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

What DID happen with Arafat's $300,000,000? He was no doubt holding it 'in trust' for the Palestinian people. Seems to have gone bye-bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: GUEST,Mame
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:29 PM

Folks, AND Goatfell,

please observe some proper posting decorum and stay on topic. This thread relates to the Taleban and their activities in Afghanistan. If you want to kick around Israel and the Palestinians, do it elsewhere.

love and kisses

Your Auntie

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:07 PM

I'd agree with Auntie on this - keep to the topic, and stay out of Gaza.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:03 PM

It seems to me that the thread drift was rather invited by the heavy irony in that first post - "Can't wait to hear the cries of outrage and indignation about this."
...............................

This thread relates to the Taleban and their activities in Afghanistan. Actually it relates to activities of the Taleban in Pakistan, where the government is by no means in sympathy with them - as this story indcates PAKISTANI soldiers backed by war planes and helicopter gunships killed 60 militants in a major offensive waged against insurgents near the Afghan border, a security official said on Tuesday.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:35 PM

It must be hell to live in fear of educated, liberated women!

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:36 PM

it is, but you learn to adapt!

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:43 PM

Well, maybe, but I'm more afraid of women like Ann Richards.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:20 AM

I think that the Taleban are really rotten but as I say it takes two or more to make a war and not just one so what abot the yanks and the british why are they there, because they didn't have any right to be there but then that's bush and blair for you, getting invovled with something that we had nothing to with or it is because there is oil or something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

I have a strong preference for intelligent,well read women. Guess I'd make a poor Taliban type of guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: GUEST,goatfell
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM

I beleive that women and men are equal but not according some people including some white men, and muslims. So I'll make a rotten Muslim as well

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: GUEST,Steven
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:07 AM

Too bad you are so willing to believe everything you hear or read on or in the Western press, especially the BBC. Ever notice how most of the stories having to do with Israel and the "Gazans" begins with the death or destruction on the Palestinians side, and then almost as an afterthought it gets mentioned that it was in retaliation for missiles fired at civilians in an Israeli town. Hamas was left millions of dollars worth of greenhouses to grow food, develop the place and help the people when the Israelis left. They didn't destroy everything rather than have the Palestinians have it. So, Hamas tore them up and used whatever metal they could to make rockets and weapons to attack Israel. What you are also seemingly unaware of is that Hamas fires the rockets from schools, and other public places knowing the Israeli military will triangulate the incoming rockets point of origin and fire back. They don't seem to care a lick about the lives of "their people" when they put them in harms way like that.

Steven

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:28 AM

OF COURSE the Taliban blows up schools. They can't afford to have people learn what unadulterated assholes they are. There. And not a single mention of G#$%.

Uncle Bruce--under his OWN name.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: GUEST,Helium
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 04:03 AM

Are these schools only to be used as temperory structures until a more permanent building can be erected? It seems like a good idea but can they withstand high winds?

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:21 AM

where is your proof, and how can you jusitfy the killing of children by blowing up schools , anyway Steven what has this got to with the Taleban?

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM

They are making rockets out of old green house parts? I thought they were bringing them in from Egypt through 200 tunnels.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:21 AM

Agreed, there are other threads about Israel and Palestine.

However, to correct what is really an urban legend - Hamas was left millions of dollars worth of greenhouses to grow food, develop the place and help the people when the Israelis left. In fact it appears that the water was turned off by Israel, making them completely useless as greenhouses.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:43 AM

so what has this got to do with The Taleban and I was being told to back off and yet there are still people on the thread talking about Israel.
I was told to get out of this thread and go somewhere else because this is to ld with the taleban

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:49 PM

Guest Mame, if that was a suggestion, fine. If it was an order, I have a suggestion for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 05:16 PM

Teribus, so do Israelis.

Clinton bombed a Madrasa in Afghanistan. So nu?

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:45 AM

I started the thing about Israelis and got told off about it so watch yourself because there are people that don't like the truth

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:22 AM

i have friends that go to israel, or they tell me abou what happens in Israel for they get e-mails or the by the Jewish news and I have ffriends that live in Gaza and Israel who are muslem but then what the hell do I know about Israel. but this has nothing to do with the Taleban, and have friend that sometimes works out in Afghaistan

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: GUEST,Steven
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:22 PM

Dear Goatfell,
I too have friends that LIVE in Israel, and they are tired after all these years of Hamas rockets fired at their cities and civilian areas. The children that are 10 or so have no memories of anything except air raid sirens giving them 15 seconds to try to get to some sheltered place. The HAMAS charter says nothing about living together, but only about killing the Jews and taking over Israel. How do you negotiate with a group that doesn't want to negotiate, feels there is nothing to negotiate about, and wants you dead? There was a movie called Independence Day, where a space alien was asked "What do you want us to do?" and the answer was "Die". We have the same situation here.
HAMAS seems to stand for: Hide Among Mosques And Schools, so that they can guarantee civilian casualties to give some more grist for the media mill.

Steven (my real name)


i have friends that go to israel, or they tell me abou what happens in Israel for they get e-mails or the by the Jewish news and I have ffriends that live in Gaza and Israel who are muslem but then what the hell do I know about Israel. but this has nothing to do with the Taleban, and have friend that sometimes works out in Afghaistan

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:57 PM

There is a lot of war-mongering propaganda coming out of both sides. What I think Israel and Palestine should do is get past the idea that blowing each other's heads off will accomplish anything for either Israeli or Palestinian State. It's the same old "god is on our side" crap.

The way you negotiate with any group is stop the bombing, stop the bloodshed and submit to outside arbitration by a respected world body organization.

I hope Obama will restore some moral cred to the US and be helpful in negotiations.
Otherwise, it's a viral-spiral that will never end until all parties are annihilated.

Peace negotiations were enabled to some degree in Ireland. It can be done in the Mid-east.
But the bombing must stop. The shooting must stop and both parties have got to stop saying they have the "high road" here. Both "states" are behaving like school children.

Goatfell, I think it's important to speak out loud and clear on this issue and not kow-tow
to bullies on either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:53 PM

Stringsinger,
I take offence at your characterizing my statement as "bullying". It was merely, and clearly just a statement of facts that, if looked into, can easily be corroborated. You seem to be saying that Israel has never stopped the bombing, but that is not true. This latest fighting was in retaliation after years of turning the other cheek in hopes of either Hamas stopping and/or showing a willingness to negotiate. The Israeli government has only fired back at Gaza as a retaliatory measure, and never initiated any bombing. Unfortunately, the Hamas folks purposely "hide" their munitions in schools, mosques, and other public buildings, fire their missles from these places, and when the counter missile comes back to the point of origin there is major destruction and death. They hide behind their civilian population (esp. women and children) to apparently create the most carnage because that will get the most news media attention.

I agree that the bombing must stop, but the only side that seems committed (by their charter) to blowing the heads off of the other is Hamas. As I already said, they or their puppetmasters want Israel gone and every Jew dead. The weapons fired at Israel are all either home made in Gaza or have a made in Iran stamp on them.

So, explain to me how do you negotiate with a group that doesn't want to negotiate, feels there is nothing to negotiate about, and wants you dead? It isn't as if Israel hasn't either directly or indirectly made many attempts at a peaceful negotiation. Arafat signed the Oslo Peace Treaty, and Camp David Accords, and then went back home to business as usual. Arafat was born in Cairo, and the only way he was able to stash away the approximate $300,000,000 he stole from "his people" was to keep the political situation in turmoil to keep getting more money from outside countries and organizations. The unfortunate thing here is that the Palestinians have never had any leaders with anything but their own self interest at heart.

Steven

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 02:01 PM

Steven, your offense taken belies your partisanship in a complex issue. You are not correct is saying that the "genocide" is one-sided. There are partisans in Israel who would eliminate Hamas (a duly elected group of people in a democratic fashion) as a solution to the current problem. This is short-sighted. Hamas can be changed. But Israel first must change its attitude.


I explain to you thusly that an outside world body arbitration must take place. Whenever there is a war conflict, it is imperative that other countries become involved for the stability of the world. The UN was supposed to serve in this capacity and I believe it can again.

Israel will never solve its problems through violence. The continuation of the military actions in Gaza and the West Bank will inflame the entire Islamic world.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:30 PM

i agree with you stringsinger, but tell that to the Jews because they don't want to listen and negotiate.
like every Jew want every muslim deadand don't say that they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:32 PM

being a guest on the mudcat cafe in these types of threads means you have something to hide Steven not only that but you are a bully

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

a bully is a coward that is also what a guest is

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:04 PM

Well Goatfell, read the founding Charter of Hamas and come back and tell us what their negotiating position is with regard to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 09:47 AM

"tell that to the Jews because they don't want to listen and negotiate." - Goatfell

Taken from an article in Guardian:

"Senior Hamas officials are demanding that the conditions for reconciliation should include an end to negotiations with Israel and to the peace process, a unity agreement under a banner of "resistance", and continued Hamas control of Gaza"

Take note of the language Goatfell - "end to negotiations with Israel AND THE PEACE PROCESS" - "unity agreement under a banner of "RESISTANCE" - That is what is demanded by HAMAS, please supply equivalent Israeli statements.

Truth of the matter is and always has been that the Israelis have always been prepared to talk with any Government Group or Organisation that affords them acknowledgement of the basic human right to life.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:32 PM

but that doesn't jusify the blowing up schools in gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM

but Israel has not had negotiations with Syria or lebanon I don't think. or I might be wrong

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 02:19 AM

Goatfell - in answer to your first question - all depends what the schools are being used for. The ones the Taleban are blowing up and closing are only guilty of educating children including girls which the Taleban take great exception to. Hence the blowing up of schools, the murder of teachers and pupils, throwing acid in the faces of gitls on their way to, or from school.

In answer to your second, Israel and Syria have been negotiating through intermediaries for years. Since 1973, apart from the attack on Syria's secret nuclear facility Israel and Syria have co-existed in peace albeit that Hamas has its headquarters in Damascus and that Hezbollah are supplied and backed by the Syrian regime as well as by Iran.

The Lebanon has been a complete and utter mess since the early 1970's after the Palestinians who were thrown out of Jordan lifted and shifted themselves to Lebanon and created and armed state within a state. Subsequent to the civil war Syria occupied Lebanon for 27 years, they only withdrew and complied with UN resolutions calling on them to withdraw after the US invasion of Iraq and the removal of the only other Ba'athist ruker in the region. Assad took note and saw which way the wind was blowing.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 05:01 AM

ok. one question which no one has answered how can Israel justify the blowing up schools, hospitals and mousques?
and then pretend to be a democratic country, I mean America or Britian doesn't do that because they know it's wrong but Israel does and gets away with it

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 10:12 AM

Goatfell, when schools, mosques and hospitals are used as bases from which military operations are planned, where munitions, weapons and explosives are stored, or as places from which attacks are launched, they then cease to become schools, mosques and hospitals and get reclassified as legitimate military targets. That is why it is against the Geneva Convention to use them or any other civilian centre for military purposes. Hamas know that, but as a terrorist organisation they couldn't care less, after all things like the "rules" laid down in articles such as the Geneva Convention do not apply to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 10:56 AM

"ok. one question which no one has answered how can Israel justify the blowing up schools, hospitals and mousques?
and then pretend to be a democratic country, I mean America or Britian doesn't do that because they know it's wrong but Israel does and gets away with it"

Gets away with it? Bullshit.

Most countries with a military have incurred "friendly fire" resulting in deaths. If rockets come from a 'school' it will receive unwanted attention and the fire will be returned. NO, that doesn't make it good, but don't store munitions/rockets/explosives in 'schools/hospitals' and stop putting kids in that sort of danger. War zones are dangerous enough as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM

I apologize for the length of the post but it is not available on line and I feel it is quite informative and relevant to the subject of the thread.

'Suffering' youths are easy prey for Taliban
Don Butler
Ottawa Citizen January 29,2009

In the past decade, Hassina Sherjan has won acclaim for educating young Afghan women, even collecting an honorary degree from Queen's University last fall.

But right now, it's the boys that worry her.

'The reality is that the boys are really suffering in Afghanistan right now,' the social entrepreneur from Kabul confided during a visit to Ottawa last week. 'There's a lot of sexual abuse, and nobody talks about it.'

Ms. Sherjan isn't so reticent. But little seems to faze the glamorous and apparently fearless 48-year-old. Since moving back to the country of her birth in December 2001, she's spearheaded social change.

Thanks to her, thousands of Afghan women have an education they wouldn't otherwise have. Thousands more might someday operate their own businesses supplying embroidered goods to Boumi, Ms. Sherjan's design and manufacturing firm. And the Taliban's forgotten victims ' young males ' are slowly starting to receive attention.

Ms. Sherjan and her family fled Afghanistan in 1978, just ahead of the Soviet invasion. For more than two decades, she lived and worked in the United States.

But her life changed after a 1995 trip to an Afghan refugee camp in Pakistan. There she met women in their 50s who were just learning to read and write. It made her realize how privileged she was.

'I could have been any of those women sitting in those camps,' she said.

The next year, she started a non-profit agency, Aid Afghanistan for Education, to help the refugees. In 1999, she travelled to Kabul in a futile effort to persuade the country's Taliban rulers to reverse their ban on educating girls.

After 10 days of meetings, one Taliban official finally told her the orders came from on high, and local leaders were powerless to alter them.

"He said, 'Look, lady, we can't really help you. We're keeping our own wives and daughters in Pakistan because we want them to go to school,'" she recalls.

With characteristic chutzpa, Ms. Sherjan found five female teachers begging on the streets and funded clandestine schools in their homes for 250 girls.

After the fall of the Taliban in 2001, the new government lifted the ban on educating women. Within weeks, Ms. Sherjan had moved back to Kabul and was hatching plans to expand her network of schools.

Even then she recognized the plight of boys.

'The education the Taliban were giving them was only indoctrination of their own philosophy or interpretation of the Koran,' she says.

But donor agencies in the West wouldn't support education for boys. 'They'd insist on girls only.'

That still puzzles Ms. Sherjan. Boys who attended Taliban schools have little future and are easy targets for the insurgency, she says.

'We have a couple of generations of young boys who hang out and do nothing.' Had their needs been addressed, 'we would have fewer problems now.'


Instead, Ms. Sherjan established accelerated learning programs for teenaged girls denied their education during the seven years of Taliban rule. Today, she educates nearly 3,000 students in 10 schools throughout the country.

Finally, last year, she was able to start similar programs for older boys in two schools in Afghanistan's north, focusing on vocational training.

Though girls make up about one-third of the 5.7 million students in Afghanistan, their right to an education isn't yet secure.

Taliban insurgents continue to target schools. Last year, violence forced the closing of 651 schools in southern Afghanistan, depriving 173,000 students of education.

The ongoing violence is alarming, Ms. Sherjan concedes. 'People are terrified of the Taliban. These people can do anything.'

But, she adds, 'it's a fight we have to fight. Failure is not an option. If we fail in Afghanistan, the world will fail, because that would really open doors for terrorist attacks.'

A military solution is unlikely, she admits, but a military presence is required to provide security while Afghanistan develops its economy and educational system. That means Canada shouldn't end its mission in 2011, as planned.

'If you want a truly democratic society, it's going to take another 15 or 20 years at least,' she says. 'And Afghans want a commitment from the international community for that period.'

If Ms. Sherjan has her way, Boumi, which means 'indigenous' in Farsi, has a role to play in the country's transformation.

Boumi produces hand-embroidered table runners, cushion covers, placemats and other goods for western markets from its factory near Kabul, which employs 64 people.

But that just scratches the surface of Ms. Sherjan's ambition. She's putting together a program she hopes will allow villagers across Afghanistan to produce Boumi products in their homes.

'By doing that,' she says, 'I think we could create thousands of jobs.'

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:53 AM

Excellent post, bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: pdq
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 12:00 PM

BOOM!!!   BOOM!!!   BOOM!!!

{this moment of peace and quiet brought to you courtesy of the Taliban}

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 03:10 PM

I recall that was a work by WW1 poet Private Baldrick!

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Alice
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 12:36 PM

On educating more girls in Afghanistan, building schools...

Journey of Hope, this report turns pages like a magazine, includes photos


(on my Mac, I can just drag to the right or left to turn pages, or you can use the menu to go through pages)

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM

Teribus, I realize now that you are foremost and primarily a soldier which means that your
whole view is colored by your military orientation.

Teribus ye teri odin was the war cry of the men of Hawick at the Battle of Flodden Field, and still preserved in the traditions of the town. The full chorus was often sung at festive gatherings, not only in the gallant old border town itself, but in the remotest districts of Canada, the United States and Australia, wherever Hawick men, and natives of the Scottish Border congregated to keep up the remembrance of their native land, and haunts of their boyhood.
"Teribus ye teri odin
Sons of heroes slain at Flodden
Imitating Border bowmen
Aye defend your right and common"

I think this rigid military view of the world is an anachronism today in which the world could be blown apart by such partisan views.

Your facts reflect your opinions but do not necessarily qualify as truth. Most of what you say I interpret as distortions based on your mindset.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 07:48 PM

On many occasions during the Presidential campaign Barack Obama indicated his support for the US presence in Afghanistan. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the scaling down of US presence in Iraq and the effort to forge better relations with Muslim nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:55 AM

From your post Frank, I take it that you have never served in any of the armed forces and most certainly have never had experience of hostile situations where large numbers of people are trying their level best to kill you. If you had had such experience then you would know that there is no such thing as a "rigid military view" on anything. History has shown that anyone adopting such a view in military situations loses, the best example of that being Napoleon.

"Rigid military view" eh? Another old adage goes something like this Frank, "No plan survives first contact with the enemy" so in the military you are deliberately taught to think on your feet and adapt to the situation that presents itself, the popular perception by the anti-war crowd of the military being mindless "Yes Sir, No Sir, Three bags full Sir" types is a myth.

"Your facts reflect your opinions but do not necessarily qualify as truth. Most of what you say I interpret as distortions based on your mindset." - Stringsinger/Frank

Facts are facts Frank, plain and simple, they are neither yours nor mine. How those facts are perceived is the problem area where the marked differences appear, the facts however remain neutral. Anyone who has done any sort of specialist job, when it comes to interpretation of facts relating to their field of expertise and experience will have greater perception of what is going on than someone who does not share their training and experience. My past experience, knowledge and understanding are useful when reading reports of conflicts and military operations in various places, but Frank that is the only time my supposedly "rigid military view and mindset" is applied, the rest of the time for almost all other situations in life I relly on the application of logic and common-sense.

The verse of the song you quoted is "Teribus", and it outlines the story of how the town came into being in 1514, how a group of boys aged between 9 and 14, when faced with attack from an English raiding party from Hexham Priory, banded together, armed themselves as best they could and mounted a pre-emptive strike at a place called Hornshole between Hawick and the village of Denholm. The boys of Hawick had to do this as all the able-bodied men from the town had been killed the previous year at Flodden. They attacked the English raiding party while they were corralling live-stock taken as plunder, the men of Hexham Priory were also at a disadvantage due to the fact they were drunk. They were all killed and their bodies dumped in the River Teviot. The "Callants" (boys) of Hawick returned to the town carrying the Standard of Hexham Priory, which to this day is the Town's flag. The Earl of Drumlanrig, of the Black House of Douglas, could not meet his feudal duty of protecting the town so he granted the town its charter as an independent burgh of barony. The infant Earl also granted the town its common lands on the proviso that the young men of the town - Hawick's Callants - ride the boundaries every year to prevent encroachment on the town's land by outsiders. It's recently been voted as one of the most successful local festivals in Scotland and is called The Common Ridng.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:55 AM

I'll take 100 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:10 AM

where is your proof about hamas keeping weapons in schools/hospitals etc

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:54 PM

wh is it that most of the 'people' on this thread hate the arabs and not Israel or the the taleban I mean what happened to love for your fellow man, I hate terrorism as much as the other man but I hate countries that just bomb other countries because they know that they can get away with it like Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM

goatee-
I think you're just being a turdbrain tosser as in you're simply avoiding the thread topic. The Taleban are for the most part, I believe, composed of Pashtuns, not Arabs. You are the one with some trouble making distinctions and I suggest that since you have a mudcat identity you start your own thread on your own topic. I promis you I'll pay ya a visit!

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 04:22 PM

"From your post Frank, I take it that you have never served in any of the armed forces and most certainly have never had experience of hostile situations where large numbers of people are trying their level best to kill you. If you had had such experience then you would know that there is no such thing as a "rigid military view" on anything."

Nonsense, Teribus. Why you are in that position in the first place has a lot to do with your choice in the matter.

" History has shown that anyone adopting such a view in military situations loses, the best example of that being Napoleon."

No, Ghandi forced the Brits out of India through non-violence. Shooting and bombing "enemies" is not written in historical stone.

"Rigid military view" eh? Another old adage goes something like this Frank, "No plan survives first contact with the enemy" so in the military you are deliberately taught to think on your feet and adapt to the situation that presents itself, the popular perception by the anti-war crowd of the military being mindless "Yes Sir, No Sir, Three bags full Sir" types is a myth."

And yet the thinking as to solutions to conflict are robotic and not considered examination of the needs of people. The way the military "adapts" is predictable by
defining an "enemy" and ending their life. It's a way too easy solution to the problem of
resolving conflict and runs counter to the principles of diplomacy and understanding of the human condition.

"Your facts reflect your opinions but do not necessarily qualify as truth. Most of what you say I interpret as distortions based on your mindset." - Stringsinger/Frank

"Facts are facts Frank, plain and simple, they are neither yours nor mine."

No, facts are often "factoids" subject to interpretation. They are both yours and mine
as we perceive them and not some objective absolute but subject to scientific scrutiny which in time will change them.


" How those facts are perceived is the problem area where the marked differences appear, the facts however remain neutral."

No they do not. They are interpreted through individual ideology and bias. Scientific facts are the most reliable but they are not a part of military ideology or political assessments.


" Anyone who has done any sort of specialist job, when it comes to interpretation of facts relating to their field of expertise and experience will have greater perception of what is going on than someone who does not share their training and experience. "

Not so fast. There are specialists in the field of fact finding that have been determined to be off-base or downright wrong. Take the case of WMD's for example. A specialist is often not as useful of a generalist who brings a wider perspective to a problem.



"My past experience, knowledge and understanding are useful when reading reports of conflicts and military operations in various places, but Frank that is the only time my supposedly "rigid military view and mindset" is applied, the rest of the time for almost all other situations in life I relly on the application of logic and common-sense."

One person's logic and common-sense may be another's fantasy. What you have said in your statements may be your reality but it's not mine. My reality envisions a world that doesn't live by posing "enemies" and reverting to claw and fang to solve problems.

Thank you for the background on the story of 1514. It's an interesting history. The Scots have been known for centuries for their participation in bloody battles. It cements the idea of war as an institution to solve conflicts by romanticizing it as some noble deed.
There is always some rationale for hating an enemy and wreaking vengeance on them.
Still, it's an interesting history and worth knowing about.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 06:32 PM

Stringsinger/Frank that has got to be the most disjointed incoherent post that I have ever read.

Put in very simple terms terms Frank.

1. Have you ever served in the armed forces of the county in which you live, or any other country - answer is either Yes or No.

2. Have you ever been in a position where people that youpersonally do not know are trying to kill you? - Again simple Yes or No would suffice.

3. If the answers to questions 1 & 2 above are No and No Frank. Don't you fuckin' well dare on any grounds whatsoever pass judgement on those who actually fight and put their lives on the line so that you can prattle on on this forum about freedoms and values that those who do serve guarantee you.

By the bye on Ghandi - care to tell us who killed him and why?? He did not "force" the British out of India, he certainly had his role in making the inevitable happen, but don't ever over emphasise his importance in decisions that in the aftermath and consequence of the Second World War were inevitable. Judged by his own standards he failed and failed miserably, Ghandi's mission was for a united India, not a set up with Pakistan/India/East Pakistan, in that particular conflict millions died - that would not have happened under British Rule and a British plan for independence.

Sorry Frank the facts relating to any case or circumstance remain purely and simply "The facts" - They are not factoids, Frank there is no such fucking thing as factiods except within your imagination which basically mean they count for bugger all.

As to pontificating on the "military mindset" Frank, as you, yourself have never served in the military, how many other things do you voice your considered opinion on about things of which you personally have absolutely no experience?? Now logic and common-sense lends me to believe that someone who rabbits on about something they personally have no actual experience of has got to be a complete and utter wanker and that Frank just about sums you up.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:07 PM

Please, the both of yez - Gandhi that drives me almost as crazy as nukyooler

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:39 PM

My apologies Robo, down right laziness on my part, I just lifted it straight from Stringsingers post.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:59 PM

Teribus, when you lose an argument do you always resort to name-calling?

>1. Have you ever served in the armed forces of the county in which you live, or any other country - answer is either Yes or No.

I was a conscientious objector.

>2. Have you ever been in a position where people that youpersonally do not know are trying to kill you? - Again simple Yes or No would suffice.

I try to avoid those situations at all costs.

>3. If the answers to questions 1 & 2 above are No and No Frank. Don't you fuckin' well dare on any grounds whatsoever pass judgement on those who actually fight and put their lives on the line so that you can prattle on on this forum about freedoms and values that those who do serve guarantee you.

I don't pass judgement on you personally. I think your ideas are deluded. And you don't
serve me with your warlike attitude.

>By the bye on Ghandi - care to tell us who killed him and why??

He was killed by a religious fanatic named Godse.

> He did not "force" the British out of India, he certainly had his role in making the inevitable happen, but don't ever over emphasise his importance in decisions that in the aftermath and consequence of the Second World War were inevitable.

Don't underestimate his considerable influence and power in India and if it wasn't for him
Britain would still be there.

>Judged by his own standards he failed and failed miserably, Ghandi's mission was for a united India, not a set up with Pakistan/India/East Pakistan, in that particular conflict millions died - that would not have happened under British Rule and a British plan for independence.

While he was active, before his assassination he was extremely sucessful even by his own standards. Nehru acknowledged this even when he didn't agree with Ghandi. The Brits plan for independence was to maintain their colonial influence as they have done historically for decades.

>Sorry Frank the facts relating to any case or circumstance remain purely and simply "The facts" - They are not factoids, Frank there is no such fucking thing as factiods except within your imagination which basically mean they count for bugger all.

Sorry Teribus but your interpretation of the facts are questionable at best. There are factoids that are administered by propagandists.

>As to pontificating on the "military mindset" Frank, as you, yourself have never served in the military, how many other things do you voice your considered opinion on about things of which you personally have absolutely no experience??

There is no reasonable way for you to determine what experience I may or may not have had since you don't know me at all. You, like so many others with a rigid mindset, make assumption based on your own prejudices.

> Now logic and common-sense lends me to believe that someone who rabbits on about something they personally have no actual experience of has got to be a complete and utter wanker and that Frank just about sums you up.

Once again, when you can't win an argument or prevail in a discussion, you apparently think there is some merit in your name-calling that will convince someone that you are correct in your misapprehensions. The discussion is now closed since the only defense you have for your arguments is to denigrate reasonable rebuttals. As of this moment,
this is not a legitimate discussion but a tirade on your part.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:40 PM

how am I avioding the issue I have mentined that the blowing up schools by the Taleban is wrong and Just because I don't back Israel or the Taleban of which i didn't say was arabs when I wrote the word arabs I was talking about Gaza I'm in the wrong but there are quite a lot of people out there in the real world that don't back Israel or the Taleban.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:45 PM

oh another thing I don't text

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:59 PM

robomatic you've have kept to the tread either ghandi what has he got to do with blowing up schools by the Taleban And I'm the aresehole

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

Goatfell:

Your attempts to describe yourself notwithstanding, I think you need to type a bit slower or more sober, it's hard to devine your point sometimes. There's plenty of threads discussing Israel and the Palestinians. What's going on in Afghanistan is the subject of this thread and you have not been alone in diverting attention from the fact.

See you on some other thread, then, all the best.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 12:15 PM

I'm not good at spelling or writing and I have spoke aobout the Taliban and what I think is wrong in their country.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:22 PM

Then I give you kudos for your brave efforts. In case you wish to APPEAr to be good at spelling or writing, there is a computer utility called 'spellcheck' that will make you appear adequately schooled if not erudite.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:37 PM

Just to quantify things to get the scale of these activities - over 170 schools have been blown up. The purpose behind it being twofold:

- To maintain the place of women in their society as mere chattels, property, beasts of burden.
- To ensure that the people remain in a state of ignorance, that way of course they are easier to control and manipulate.

The depressing thing is that so many on this forum seem quite content to condemn all those people to their fate.

Oh and before the usual suspects and fellow travellers start wittering on about seperate cultures and the sanctity of religious belief, remember this. The Taleban moved into the Swat valley uninvited, they were and are interlopers. The Taleban ruthlessly killed any opposition and took over the area at gunpoint, then forced their particular religious views and harsh interpretation of Sharia Law on a population who had absolutely no choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:22 PM

The Taleban are ruthless just as the Israelis are in Gaza and Timothy McVeigh, the great Christian savior was in the US.

They all blow up schools. McVeigh would've if he could.

The maintenance of women in society is equally attributable to many practitioners of Christianity, Hindusim, and other religions, not just Islam.

I see that those who attempt to report on what the Taleban did or didn't do, were not there to actually witness it firsthand but rely on doctored news articles about it promulgating their political ideologies.

This is not to excuse the Taleban but to question the various "sources" that maintain that
they know everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:29 PM

Stringsinger see the post of 28 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM, it is from someone who was there.

This thread is about the Taliban, there is another one for slagging the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 07:51 AM

thnak you robomatic

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:16 AM

Stringsinger check out BBC News web-site South East Asia section. They are running a series of articles written/reported by a school girl living in Swat. Are you saying that the article is fake, or that the girl doesn't live there?

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: GUEST,saleem
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:58 AM

i am a muslim, maybe youd call me a fundamentalist cos i have a real beard & wear islamic attire and pray 5 times daily etc.

what i wish to remind you folks is that there are many factions in afghanistan- i have been there twice in 2003 & 2005.
although the taliban are strict about following islam, ther are many who want to discredit them, and even kill, bomb & try to make it appear as if its the taliban.
no1 is CIA- they are LOSING-the death toll is WAAAAAY higher than what they say.
they were funding the taliban in the 80's & maybe upto early 90's.
but since the negotiations for the pipeline of oil & natural gas from the caspian went sour (taliban wants to give a S. American country the contract)and the taliban is destroyed the poppy/opium fields(CIA is running drugs), they have gone from being "freedom fighters" to "terrorists"
and pleeease dont say anything about osama & 911 cos thats the job of Mossad. not one of the "hijackers/terrorists" were afghan.

you people are intelligent so i dont know why you swallow everything you see/hear/read.
there is hardly any journalistic integrity nowadays- they all spew out the same lies, as theyve been ordered to do- or else you lose your job.
due to its rough, mountainous terrain & poor infrastructure, its very hard to get regular & reliable news out from afghanistan.
maybe you hate muslims and find it convenient to believe the picture of the taliban thats painted by western media and their puppets of muslim/afghan origin.
the media is dominated by the zionists- so the only place you might get real news is by surfing the net -and that too, you got to be careful .

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 09:11 AM

Thank you saleem for telling us who the real terrorists are. Now we know that the suicide bombers are really CIA operatives and Jews disguised as Muslims - clever buggers the lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 09:38 AM

Yeah, I echo bobad's thanks, saleem...

One component of "The Surge" that was successful was the negotiations
with Suni leaders... No, this does not get much press because it's not as rah-rah-go-teamish as the boots on the ground...

History has shown that very conflict ended with folks talking with one another... Afganistan is no different... The US should, and under Obama probably will, begin talks with the Taleban...

One thing is for sure, there will be no military solution or victory for the US in Afganistan... Bush picked two unwinable wars...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 01:40 PM

Schools are being blown up by Taleban and Israelis. Clinton blew up a madrasa in Afghanistan. This alarmist post is a red-herring. Of course innocents will be targeted.
It's part of the war machine. The difference between police work and wars is that in police work, the guilty are apprehended. In war, the innocent suffer as much as the guilty.

There are no smart bombs, just lethal ones that don't discriminate.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 03:02 PM

I would like to agree with saleem but I cna't put my views ob this web site because there are members and non members that just don't like me and they don't have the courage to say so.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 03:40 PM

"This thread is about the Taliban, there is another one for slagging the Jews."

My first good laugh of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:27 PM

Guest saleem, having read your post I can only conclude that you are a congenital liar and a complete and utter idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:38 PM

saleem did have a small amount of accuracy, I recall that not long before the Taliban decided to shell Buddhist shrines there was a deal in the works for the US to pay them, as the government of Afghanistan, for destroying/ prohibiting the culture of poppies.

I don't think anyone ever termed them "freedom fighters" and for the rest of his / her post, saleem was as accurate as, say, The O'Reilly Factor.

goatfell, you're making an error common to a lot of folks in these forums. It isn't about you. It's about what you say. So say something relevant already. You can start a thread about yourself, a lot of folks do that, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 07:34 PM

Teribus, I for one will add my voice to those who are indignant / outraged at what the Taliban have done.

Whatever their motives, the few Pakistani people I've read / heard interviewed were really angry about it, angry their kids had been denied an education, fearful they'd be attacked by the Taliban if they spoke out. What an awful situation to be in.

Education seems to have bypassed the Taliban themselves, maybe they are like some kind of Afghani Rednecks who are fearful of books and learning. I think it is yet another demonstration of how much pervasive violence in daily life helps to set back the process of 'civilization' (I use the word in a broad sense, not to imply necessarily the western model)

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: pdq
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 07:47 PM

"...some kind of Afghani Rednecks who are fearful of books and learning." ~ Nickhere

Racist stereotyping. Total crap.

Drop dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:08 PM

Pdq - Drop dead? You sound like a very angry man. Sorry, but I won't be obliging you on that one. Racial stereotyping? How, exactly? Are the Taliban a race? When we - you and I both - criticized the brutality of the IDF did we accept it when people not a million miles away accused of us racial stereotyping (ie. anti-semitism, in that case)? Not a bit of it. Though the IDF is Jewish in composition, only a racist fool would argue the actions of the IDF is representative of what all Jews think.

But that aside, I have a bone to pick with you, Teribus - though I agree with you that the Taliban have done a bad thing in blowing up the schools, there's a bit of dishonesty here as well. You asked at the start of the thread 'where are the cries of indignation now?' - we both know that this was a reference to those who criticized Israel for bombing schools on other threads.

Yet when people have pointed out here that the schools bombed by Israel had people inside - unlike those bombed by the Taliban - they were quickly told it wasn't relevant and there was another thread for criticizing Israel. But actually it was completely relevant, as your very first post makes clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 03:06 AM

A couple of questions for you Nickhere.

If I had not started this thread who else would have??

If beardedbruce had not started the thread on Darfur who else would have??

I think the answer to both would have been nobody, because the bias present on this forum is such that if it can't be blamed on GWB, the USA, the UK or the Israelis the situation no matter how dire gets pointedly ignored.

Further as the person who started this thread I have never restricted or attempted to restrict by comment what has been posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:07 AM

cat fighting here too stake your nonsense somewhere else

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Nickhere
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:23 PM

You're missing the point - the thread was posed by way of comparison, as in "what about the Taleban?" Since you are starting out by comparing two situations, then comparisons are legitimate. But if you read back along, you'll see people who attempted to draw comparisons were told they were irrelevant.

e.g

"Oh and Kevin this does belong in this thread, it is exactly what I thought would happen considering the subject matter - can't be seen to condemn fanatical Islamic "freedom fighters" so distract and deflect the arguement so we can all blame Jews, the big bad west and GWB - didn't take long did it??"

(Your words)

and Bobad -

"This thread is about the Taliban, there is another one for slagging the Jews"

Get the drift?

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:55 PM

Saleem's post is correct in saying that there is no monolithic Islam. There are many tribal factions. He is also correct in saying that the main stream news media is unreliable on this issue. He, however, equates criticism of certain Muslim tribal activities with hatred. This is not true.

Honor killings, subjugation of women, brutal slayings, although these are not necessarily
the province of all Islam, this certainly deserves criticism. As well as school bombing.

Saleem's point is well-taken in that the so-called Western societies really don't understand the fanaticism of the Taleban but apply their value system to it by condemning it without seeing what it represents. There are factions in other countries that are just as ruthless and fanatical.

The answer is not a blanket diatribe or condemnation but an appeal to education and reason to prevail in place of blind "faith".

Once again, the conversation has denigrated into name-calling and as a result, facts on the subject have become obliterated.

If we are to have peace in this world, whether we agree with him or not, we have to acknowledge what Saleem has to say without the usual knee-jerk reaction that is so customary in the so-called "civilized" world.

I deplore the violence and brutality in Afghanistan but before we get to self-righteous about it I would suggest that we also remember what happened in Hiroshima and Nagaski and who was responsible for that. A few schools were bombed there too.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 03:38 PM

Stringsinger, this is an odious comparison from you, "...(B)ut before we get to(sic) self-righteous about it I would suggest that we also remember what happened in Hiroshima and Nagaski and who was responsible for that. A few schools were bombed there too."

The allies were trying to end a war in which invasion of the Japanese Islands would have cost, by estimate, over 100,000 American lives...perhaps even a cousin and an uncle of mine who were US Marines in the Pacific...and, perhaps other relatives who might have been transferred from Europe. You, too, might have had close relatives killed or wounded in that invasion. I am sorry for the loss of civilian Japanese, but their government started the war.

The Taliban, on the other hand, are bullys (and that's the very mildest word I can use) who destroy schools and cultural monuments, to keep girls and women in their 'place', and want to impose their retrograde form of Islam on Afghanistan at whatever the cost to the populace.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Nickhere
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:22 PM

But you're correct on another point Teribus - it isn't right that it's left to yourself or BBRuce to start threads on Darfur etc.,

I suppose that most Catters are way more familiar with the wars in Iraq, Afgahanistan and Palestine - these have all been covered extensively in the media and the war in Palestine has been going on so many years that most people have had time to read up on it, inform themselves about it and so feel in a position to make some comment on it. There's a lot of material around about it from all viewpoints and then some.

On the other hand there are dozens of conflicts that flare up round the world, like the one in Georgia, that are over almost before you get any idea of what's really going on. They are also often less well-covered by the media, at least after the initial furore. The Darfur situation is a case in point - it got reasonably well-covered in the first few weeks then the media circus moved on to more 'interesting stuff' though it's not as if the Janjaweed suddenly thought better of their murderous actions.

A journalist, Joe Sacco, who covered the Bosnia war intensively, made this point about Sarajevo. Though people were still dying there, the main focus of the war shifted to Gorazde as the action was far more intense, and the chance of getting that 'scoop' drew the journalists in droves. A very similar stinging criticism of the media can be found in Danis Tanovich's "No Man's Land" - about the war in Bosnia.

On a more recent note, I think "Blood Diamond" has done an excellent job in alerting people to the moral pitfalls in buying a diamond thanks to the backdrop of corruption and slaughter in the Democratic Republic of Congo (and as I've noted elsewhere, any country with the word 'democratic' in the title probably isn't). Personally, I'd haul China over the coals for their dismal human rights record - far more executions than the USA (though a bigger population admittedly), the annexation of Tibet which has never been properly addressed. It warmed my heart to see the protests over the Olympic torch last year. Then there is the Communist Party's suppression of religion, the fact there IS only one party, and no democratic vote as we understand it, etc., etc., I think countries that call themselves civilized should either call China to account or break off relations over these issues. But the lure of the Chinese RNB (Chinese currency) is proving stronger than morals in almost all cases.

I am not a person who believes it better to protest against no regime if we're not going to protest against them all, in the interests of fairness. Though I believe in fairness, I also realise people have limited time and energy so different groups can focus their efforts in different areas. Occasionally they can combine their energies on one - as was done with South Africa - if it helps tip the scales.

I have written numerous times to the Iranian government protesting over the treatment of jailed trade union activists and the beating of women trade unionists. Though these efforts don't seem to make much difference, you'd be surprised how they do trickle into a government's consciousness - 'we;re not well viewed by the rest of the world" Now they mightn't care much about my views, but they might worry about the effect of such lobbying at home on my own own government by like minded people on relations between the two governments. In the past, these protests (I wasn't the only one protesting, I hasten to add) have effected the release of activists or shortened their sentences or lightened their treatment. Another country I'd like to see real pressure applied to is Burma.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:18 PM

There is continuing propaganda about how atomic weapons were supposed to end the war in Japan. In fact, the war was winding down without having had to use these weapons. Truman was adamant for political reasons. He didn't consider the lasting effect of the use of these weapons over time. Einstein, Oppenheimer and others who developed these weapons were far more circumspect. The statistics offered above about the ending of the war with Japan are speculative and can't be completely verifiably accurate.

I believe that the Taleban are renegades and religious fanatics and what they have done to women is despicable. But let's not white-wash the deeds of other nations in this discussion.

There are all kinds of bullies in the world and some of them are on this list.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:50 PM

String,

"There is continuing propaganda about how atomic weapons were supposed to end the war in Japan. In fact, the war was winding down without having had to use these weapons. Truman was adamant for political reasons."

There have been threads about this, and your conclusion was not determined to be totally valid.


Truman was looking at at least 500,000 US and over 1 million Japanese expected to be killed if there was an invasion of Japan. The use of the atomic bomb was thought by all to be a means to end the war with fewer casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 02:06 PM

Yes the war was winding down. Germany had already been defeated, which was going to free up US GIs for the impending invasion of Japan.

Nobody could have predicted precisely how many Japanese and Americans would have been killed. But we know it was between 0 and the entire population of the Islands for the Japanese, and 0 to however many the US cared to send in.

Everything I have read, except for some on the left, has postulated way more than a million folks on both sides combined would have been killed or wounded. I think Pesident Truman made the valient decision for both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Nickhere
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 05:15 PM

I wonder if the scientists and military men who created the bomb were desperate to get a chance to test it out for real before the war ended. After all they knew it could blow up some sheds etc., in he New Mexico desert, but what would it do to a whole city full of people? And just to make sure the results weren't a fluke, might be a good idea to test it on a second city as well, as quickly as possible before the Japs got a chance to officially surrender.
You never know...

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 07:03 AM

Life under Taleban rule in the Swat Valley:

"Even the Swat Valley, one of the most beautiful green highland landscapes on earth and until recently a popular tourist destination, is now home to Taliban FM radio stations which broadcast the names of new death squad targets most evenings, and justify the latest murders of women and girls.

In Green Square in the centre of Mingora, the valley's largest city, executions are staged and bodies dumped within walking distance of police stations, to help local people understand the Taliban's take on Sharia law."

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Nickhere
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 12:35 PM

So the Taliban give advance warning to their intended victims as well. I'm sorry for the poor people who have to live in such troubled areas and in such troubled times. We should be thankful for our peace and stability. I am, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:04 PM

I have read a lot of propaganda about the use of atomic weapons on Japan as well.
It had to be "rationalized".

The Taleban are sick, crazy, and a perversion of Islam. No amount of bombing or shooting is going to change that. The only way is through re-education, modeling of a better way of life and exposure to better ideas.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: gnu
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:45 PM

I say we nuke em until they glow.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban Blow Up Schools
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:29 PM

stringy:

I have no idea why you're trying to drag WWII into this. If you are urging us to use nukes on the Taliban, I think you'll find most of us against that (I sure am). If you are trying to make some equivalence between the Taleban dynamiting all and sundry and the use of a couple of small atomic bombs on a major enemy to end the biggest war the world has ever seen, I suggest you make your own thread.