A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)

Subject: A MOCKERY
From: SunrayFC
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:23 PM

What a pity the people chosen to present awards mocked the very music.

Why didnt they choose people from within the music to present these awards.

Such a shame.

A waste!

Briden told us he had no idea!

Subject: RE: A MOCKERY
From: SunrayFC
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:25 PM

and it just got worse

I am appalled!

If Harding is proud of this

Subject: RE: A MOCKERY
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:25 PM

que.please elucidate.

Subject: RE: A MOCKERY
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:34 PM

I think you're either a fan of these awards or not. No point in getting steamed up. The way the BBC has conducted itself over many years has marked out its territory. No use bitching if they don't want you in their gang.

As Cecil Sharp pointed out, Oh Bla di! oh Blah da! Life goes on...and its my house and I've paid for the band.

Subject: RE: A MOCKERY
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:34 PM

Sunray FC is talking about the BBC Folk Awards, presumably.

That'll be John Tams, Barbara Dickson, Ade Edmundson, Linda Thompson, Phil Beer, etc. who have "no idea" will it, then.

"Why didn't they chose people from within the music..." ????

I'm slightly confused now!

Subject: RE: A MOCKERY
From: peregrina
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:38 PM

Perhaps Sunray is referring to Monday's Radcliffe and Maconie coverage, which was a bit peculiar, and not just because they were in Manchester?

Subject: RE: A Mockery
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:53 PM

Would it be considered a mockery to include enough details so that folks on both sides of the pond would have a clue as to what the heck y'all are talking about? Maybe even a link or two? Scheesh.....

Subject: RE: A Mockery
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 04:20 PM

The Mike Harding / Smooth Ops show was a Re Hash of the BBC Folk Awards , which happened on Monday . A couple of the people presnting the awards were being 'Humourous' about Folk music ! I think it will be on 'Listen Again' on the BBC Web site .

Subject: RE: A Mockery
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 05:20 PM

Believe you me - you don't want to know about it stateside - its not our finest hour - or usually our best music.

Theres only about an hour a week of folk music on national networked publicly funded radio. Every year they (BBC) give an award - several awards to their favourite artists.

Someone thinks its a mockery.

A rockery is a sort of garden with rocks in it.

A mockery has mocks in it

Neither of the two is to be confused with a case of buggery - which doesn't have bugs in it.

Subject: RE: A Mockery
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 05:51 PM

The hour or so is largely of what WLD (excellent singer and player though he is) is pleased to call "folk".

Hoever, if (that's "if") the awards presenters for a "folk music award" were taking the piss out of folk music they should be taken down a back alley and

Much like the Carol Thatcher award to multiculturalism.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:16 PM

I was looking forward to hearing The Gollywogs!!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:27 PM

I haven#t heard the Harding Show - to be honest I gave up listening years ago.

The awards were generally Ok though. (IMHO)

And MH has been known to bollock people who take the piss out of folk music.

But instead of complaining on here - Smooth Ops run the BBC board - have a go on there. Complain to Feedback. Complain to the BBC.

One thing is for certain - no amount of spleen vented here will make the slightest bit of difference.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:35 PM

Every year, the BBC chooses for the folk Awards ceremony some presenters who are from within the folk world, and a few who are more general celebrities.

The more general celeberities this year included actor and comedian Rob Brydon, Harry Shearer(A Mighty Wind, Spinal Tap, The Simpsons) and the comedienne Mel Giedroyc.

They were all jolly enough on the night, and while there may have been some gentle fun poked none of it was really serious. Rob Brydon in particular, with his stalking of James Taylor, was hilarious.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: SunrayFC
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:39 PM

thats your opinion lass!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:40 PM

Isn't the thread name a bit misleading. I read it and thought what are they on about.

Now I see its the presenters taking the piss).

Wouldn't the thread title be better as

Presenters of BBC2 Folk Awards 2009 mock Folk music.

I suppose its a bit like Terry Wogan taking the piss out of the Eurovison Song Contest.

I agree with Fokiedave

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:51 PM

Well, Sunray, I had the benefit of also hearing the full speeches, rather than the truncated versions broadcast on Mike Harding's show. Sometimes editing deletes some of the essence and charm of the event itself. I don't remember anyone chuntering about presenters being rude about folk music afterwards - unlike last year, when Steve Harley really WAS obnoxious and everyone said so.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:52 PM

No change there then............

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:30 PM

No absolutely right, dave. which was my point. render unto caesar what is caesar's.....

and quite frankly, who gives a shit? it doesn't concern anyone outside the Inbred family.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:25 PM

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

Whatever.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Betsy
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:34 PM

We should just put lots of rough , gritty, sand in their jars of vaseline .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:56 PM

Each week the Harding programme, under analysis, goes pretty much as follows:
within 10 minutes: A mention of Kate Rusby
within 20/25 minutes: A mention of Seth Lakeman
within 35/40 minutes: A mention of Eliza Carthy
It's my sole, very personal suspicion, that there simply has to be money involved somewhere.
Or, and I don't believe for a minute, he's so unoriginal, that he can't move from this template for his programme.
Mike Harding is a excellent musician, singer and presenter,he also includes a great deal of folk music.
IMHO...'Catter's comments welcomed.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:18 PM

It would be lovely if the Mike Harding Show could represent every individual's own tastes in folk music. But it's only an hour, there are as many opinions as there are folkies (certainly on Mudcat) and the programme, I am sure, has all sort of pressures from the BBC. Those pressures are probably financial (have you seen the cut backs throughout the BBC?) and no doubt artistic in order to keep up the ratings. Perhaps that's why the programme is sometimes a bit formulaic and if you notice, there are fewer outside broadcasts and even interviews than there used to be.
The sad thing is that this is the only dedicated folk programme on BBC national radio. Yes, there is stuff in Scotland and there's Late Junction on R3. But this is the only dedicated one.

As for the BBC Awards, I did think that perhaps some of the presenters could have been less willing to show their ignorance of the music and less willing to hide behind humour about the music. But Rob Brydon was very funny .... as was Stephen Fry a few years ago when he started his speech with the ironic "My life is folk music". But alongside this, there are some real enthusiasts for the music in unlikely quarters.

All in all, the Folk Awards are a good thing .. they help promote the music and each year there are new people being nominated and winning. If you feel that your bit of the folk scene isn't represented, all I can say is that it can't represent it all, and hopefully the trickle down effect will help strengthen the music in all its forms.

Derek Schofield

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 09:29 PM

WLD, I'm quite surprised that you know of the Inbreds, the stalwarts of Kent grunge metal that they are. Some of the greatest exponents of DOS (drunk on stage). I think there are much better local metal-ish bands to be seen and among my favourites would be the Sons of Alpha Centuari - although as their name implies they are on the stoner side.

What I don't see is what they have to do with the Smoothiechops.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,banjodowney
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:57 PM

There's also Folkwaves from BBC Derby, once a week on a Monday night,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/derby/local_radio/folkwaves_programme_feature.shtml Folkwaves is hosted by Mick Peat and Lester Simpson (of Coope, Boyes and...)and good fun to listen to.

There's also one on BBC Wales.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/radiowales/sites/presenters/pages/frank_hennessy.shtml

Just thought I'd mention it....

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:39 AM

I can assure you it's a total waste of time complaining to Smooth Operations, they don't even acknowledge complaints, only compliments.

I have tried for a long time to get an answer to why the ' country ' music shows only have to play ' country ' music but Mike Harding has to play everything.

Dave H

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:22 AM

I have not listened to this show. I tend to steer clear of award shows, because as implied above the winners are cherry picked by a select few and so winners do not represent the wider tastes of fans of whatever genre.

In short meaningless to us grunts here on the ground. Let the BBC idjits have their moments of smug.

I must say that I am grateful for the likes of uberfamous folk (Rusby, et al) because they ushered me into the earthy much more satisfying real world of the music. So these young gods have their use. I say let them continue. Their prosletysing attracts new young converts who will dig deeper, find out more, keep the authentic stuff rolling on.

As to employing celebrity presenters. Don't they all take the piss, whatever the award show? Isn't that what they are paid to do?

Just my 2P worth.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:27 AM

Not one Irish Artists on there...why is that? Anyone would think Ireland has been dormant in it's music...

Tony MacMahon summed it up nicely:

Underlying the affection of a large section of the public for [traditional music and song] is a preconception that apart from its entertainment value, traditional music has little of artistic importance to offer. More importantly, its value in terms of addressing the spiritual desert that covers much of the Western world today, including Ireland, remains unexplored.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:01 AM

I must say that I am grateful for the likes of uberfamous folk (Rusby, et al) because they ushered me into the earthy much more satisfying real world of the music.

Yes. In my case it was James Yorkston. I still like JY as a songwriter & arranger, but he's not the greatest interpretater of traditional songs. And yet, his versions of Rosemary Lane and Lowlands and Patrick Spens were the first versions of those songs I heard, and without them I wouldn't have discovered Anne Briggs and Nic Jones and John Kelly. And without *them* I wouldn't now be spending half my free time working up songs for the next singaround.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:18 AM

Am I, too, "confused" at unwisely opening this thread? Other than continuing to be astounded at GEFF-ish, indeed loutish, wilful ignorance, no. After the most representative (albeit in many cases a tad belated) FA nominations in years, which at the very least, indicate that the Smoothies have taken some of their past gaffes on board, there are still the kneejerk, predictable bleatings about "usual suspects". If these whingers employed just a smidgeon of lateral thinking, they might have come up with the marginally more original (but still unfair) observation that many nominees were there only as a result of their family connections. It would indeed be ironic (if only the knockers were capable of assimilating the concept) to castigate Oates or Lakeperson siblings ( or even the kRusby who isn't even involved) as parachuted in from nowhere when they have actually been attending festivals since before they could walk.

As for the attempted putdown of the decidedly non-lass cowperson of Ambridge, no wrong. That was not an "opinion" but front-row reportage from a gathering of all corners of the industry. It's a way of generating outside interest in a little-known and widely misunderstood genre. Isn't that what you want?

It's no secret that I'm no supporter of the Smoothies and never listen to the MH show (or R2 at all) simply because I can learn nothing I want to know or don't know already. It's not there for me, but I do acknowledge that it may serve a purpose as an entry for some who will progress deeper and learn for themselves. R3 and 4 have far more of what you might (if you must) term "f*lk music as a natural part of their output, which is surely as it should be. Only yesterday I heard Nic Jones singing Humpback Whale in the middle of an environmental broadcast . . .

What really does beat me is extrapolating just what it is that these people want. An award for the floor singer who managed to stay in tune and remember the words? That might actually serve as some incentive, but not for a network broadcast aimed at the industry as a whole. The annual Brewery bash is to showcase where we are at now. And it does, on the whole.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Rog Peek
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:58 AM

B3L, You've scuppered any chance you might have had of working for the BBC unless you make an unreserved apology, right now!

Rog

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:05 AM

' An award for the floor singer who managed to stay in tune and remember the words?'

now you're talking....however, is it strictly necessary to remember ALL the words and stay in tune ALL the way through a entire song?

How is the folk process to develop, if we adhere to outmoded standards instituted in the main part by the same buggers who have backed folkmusic into the present cul de sac.

I reserve the right of everyone to forget the words, change the words and sing out of tune. And I think I deserve an award for that.
radio2 - please note!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:14 AM

outmoded standards

Ha! There it comes from a horse's mouth. "F*lk" is horsehit nowadays and it's archaic to bother to get it right..
But surely. Al, you're failing to practice what you preach.
Never heard you being less than professional.
Oh dear.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:32 AM

we don't need no stinkin awards.... don't need no recognition
just let us sing for creep's sake.

GAWD!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: peregrina
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:45 AM

That's what I used to think. But there have been all sorts of contests alongside inclusive participation in folk music ever since whenever--old time fiddling contests in the Southern US, traditional song or pipe competitions in Scotland, Northumberland and other places. It's basically human nature to have these two poles of inclusive participation versus competition for every pursuit from football to jam-making and baking. Luckily the the first is what keeps them all alive.

Like others who posted earlier, I have gotten into, and farther into, folk music from hearing stuff on the awards show--I still remember hearing Kate Rusby's 'who will sing me lullabies' about seven or eight years ago and being galvanized. Now I might listen to Lizzie Higgins more than KR, but one brought me to the other.

The BBC's folk awards may not have the same credibility as, say, the IBMA awards because folk doesn't have a comparable guild-organization to oversee an awards process. (And thank goodness it doesn't.) But if they bring mainstream exposure and CD sales, that seems a good thing.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:17 AM

You are missing the point!

If you want the awards, you will have to be LIKE the people getting them. poncy music , crap jokes.......

Don't do it! life's too short, the pay off's not good enough.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: peregrina
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:21 AM

de gustibus etc.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:42 AM

"As for the BBC Awards, I did think that perhaps some of the presenters could have been less willing to show their ignorance of the music and less willing to hide behind humour about the music."

Much as I hate to deviate from the views of the respected Mr Schofield, I have to agree with what Tam said: many awards-show presenters are effectively rent-a-gobs. I'd rather they were up-front about their lack of knowledge than being excessively reverential. My ex-husband was once at a press awards 'do and Steve Coogan managed to take the piss out of three different titles that he'd worked for in the space of about two sentences. This did not mean my ex later thumped him in the bar. I think it's quite common for a certain level of barracking and banter to take place at these shindigs. Of course, there's still a line that can be crossed - I think Steve Harley crossed it last year, but I think this year's presenters stayed on the right side.

Do we need awards? Well, it depends on what you do, I guess. Let's not forget that the first festivals in the UK started out as competitive gatherings - even then, over 100 years ago, people wanted recognition for and acknowledgement of their abilities. Since then, folk seems to have become more about taking part than about competitiveness, at least at grass-roots level, but there is still concern within the folk community that our music doesn't get heard widely enough. BBC beanfeasts and gongs may mean little to the average folk club attender or even to some who attend festivals and gigs, but they do act as a kind of kite-mark to the wider world. If I've booked an artist and they've won an award, I'll certainly make sure it's acknowledged on the festival website, because I genuinely believe that it may help to sell tickets. Some people will be swayed by the mark of quality that a BBC Folk Award represents. Some won't care. And that's fine, too.

With regard to the idea that the same small pool of people get nominated every year, you have to remember that the process itself is actually quite wide. The panel can vote for anything they like in the first round. So with 170 people voting, there are a HUGE number of performers who probably get a handful of votes each. The short-listing is naturally going to pool around the areas of largest concesnsus, which might seem somewhat homogenous given the diversity of the voting panel, but it's a natural outcome of this sort of process. I have to be honest: if the awards were condicted by listener vote, I don't think the outcomes would be more diverse - I think the opposite is true. I'm reminded of public voting on awards such as "Most influential musician of the millenium", which named Robbie Williams in the top 5. If you think the awards are full of "usual suspects" and populist choices now, just open it up to a public vote.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:11 AM

The noticable thing about this years awards was exactly that the "usual suspects" walked away empty handed.

Jackie Oates, The Demon Barbers, Tom McConville have never won an award in their lives before. Chris While and Julie Matthews have never won before (though they've been nominated umpteen times). Black Swan Folk Club has never been given an award before.

Even Lau and Chris Wood have only received one award each. And Andy Partridge has obviously never won a folk award before...

The Carthys, Rusbys and Lakemans got nothing.

So, what are you talking about?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:16 AM

>>Chris While and Julie Matthews <<

Nice to know we have them at Faldingworth Live :-)

We also have Mawkin:Causley on April 18th 2009

Good comments Guest JM

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:22 AM

How I wish I had put my Forest v Derby ticket on e-bay so I could have stayed home to listen to it. ;-)

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: goatfell
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:27 AM

Barbara Dickson was a folksinger from dunfermline

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:57 AM

Thanks, Goatfell, I don't suppose anyone on Mudcat knew that! A great contribution to the debate........

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 09:26 AM

DaveS:
How I wish I had put my Forest v Derby ticket on e-bay so I could have stayed home to listen to it. ;-)
And if someone had bought it you might be able to afford a pint while you're listening!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:48 AM

No more F*rest v D*rby references please, too upsetting and that's one of John Tams' best jokes up the Swannee too!

Re the awards, I always thought it was just an excuse for an almighty free p*ss up by les artistes et flaneurs at the expense of the BBC - judging by Ade Edmundson's lurchings onto camera every 10 seconds a few years ago. Anyway, here's to Chris and Julie, very well deserved.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,C.Porter
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:57 AM

How that cacophany performed by J.Moray qualified for any award is beyond me but its inclusion does back up the "Mockery" reference.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:12 AM

According to Wikipedia, the Cacophony Society is "a randomly gathered network of free spirits united in the pursuit of experiences beyond the pale of mainstream society."

NB (for the edification, not to mention education, of pseudonymous "Guests"): CacophOny (Gr. phonos = sound).

All You Pretty Girls, first recorded by XTC, has been revived in an entirely contrasting arrangement by young Mr Moray, so much so that it's already entering "the tradition", especially down Walthamstow way. I find it a very jolly and quite excellent "original composition" and a worthy winner of that category.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,C.Porter
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:23 AM

According to the O.E.D., CACOPHONY is described as a discordant sound.
(Greek:- kakos = bad, phone = sound).

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:38 AM

it's already entering "the tradition", especially down Walthamstow way

Now there's a line you don't hear every day.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:53 AM

I was going to check how to join the Cacophony Society but they say I may already be a member.

Principia Discordia looks like fun as well.

Had a listen on the Youtube and I like Morays's All You Pretty Girls. Good stuff.

Started listening to other songs. I thought I hit on one with April Morning. Starts very cleanly then it goes over all Brian Adamsy with the western slide guitar, background vocals and that "everything sounds like Cold Play now" feeling.

Maybe that is what the young uns need to bring em into the fold. but not to my personal taste.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folknacious
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:49 PM

As somebody pointed out on the BBC board, one of the presenters was Stevie Winwood who has probably sold more copies of John Barleycorn (i.e. got the song heard by more people) that everybody who contributes to Mudcat put together.

Go on, struggle with that!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:53 PM

For f--k's sake!

that's the answer - if you want to be considered for a radio 2 award - buy yourself a cackophone! Study it night and day.

Its no use blaming Mike Harding. He's just a servant of the folk music industry. A pawn in the great game of life. bringing you morris dancing the way it is out there on the street....sweaty, ferral, sexy...

this year cackophones are in. Get yourself one - preferably a big one. Go out on Dartmoor for inspiration.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:35 PM

Al, I hate to say this, but a lot of your posts have more than a whiff of very sour grapes about them.


If you're not happy with how things are, get out and change them. But the perpetual whingeing and slagging off gets really, really tired after a while.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Cotswold Maid
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:53 PM

Has anyone else watched the alleged video of the Folk Awards on the BBC2 website? All it features is snatches of the award presenters' speeches with a 2 second clip of the Demon Barbers at the end. It would really confuse anyone wanting to hear samples of the award winners' music. Does anyone care what Barbara/Mel/Harry said, or why it should be preserved for posterity?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:59 PM

"How that cacophany performed by J.Moray qualified for any award is beyond me but its inclusion does back up the "Mockery" reference."

Blah blah blah bored now.

If I got a slice of your license fee I'd gladly refund you, but I didn't get paid for Monday night so I can't. Sorry.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:06 PM

Apropos of nothing, isn't it interesting how infrequently the young folkies who are doing fab things and - gasp shock horror - winning the odd award waste their time adding their voices to the whingefest that is the UK branch of Mudcat?

Just sayin', like...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:17 PM

Well, the one above you just did, SpleenCringe. :) But at least he has a shiny new award to cuddle up to tonight for solace...


The only thing that disappointed me about Jim's performance on Monday night is that he wouldn't let me put a beard on and sing in the Pretty Boys' chorus. Now that IS worth chuntering about.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM

Yup, I cross posted with Mr Moray. Sigh... almost famous...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:28 PM

Hi Sunray, I guess the point I worry about is that if you took all the people here on Mudcat who have complained about the folk awards by the BBC how many people would this total? I guess less than 100….. will this worry the BBC or Smooth opps…don't think so.

We got our fans to send in over 1000 email requests to play one of our songs on radio two but the still refused to play it. Head of music Jeff Smith replied

Dear Tony

Thanks for your e-mail.
We are frequently contacted by people urging Radio 2 to support their music.
I believe we operate a very fair music policy here at Radio 2. This allows us to pick what we believe to be the best music to appeal to our very broad audience.
Radio 2's playlist committee is very democratically run and we consider all records as championed by supporting producers who attend the meeting.
To get to the stage of even being considered for playlist, your record needed a champion and thus I put you in contact with the specialist shows that I thought would consider your music.

We take seriously every listener request and even though your 1,000 requests represent a very small percentage of the overall R2 audience I believe we have really considered it fully across our network.
Once again I wish you well and we will certainly consider any future material you produce.
All the best
Jeff

So there you go………unless a select band of producers champion your music you have no chance………………so much for democracy.

Happy new year!!!!

Tony

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:36 PM

It's one thing (though not very polite) for someone to take a cyberswipe at Ms Carthy, not knowing that she was lurking, whereupon she materialised and gave the poster a right bollocking.

It's quite another for some disgruntled Guest to make potentially hurtful but (more importantly) ludicrously untrue comments when the artist is already contributing to the thread.

I call that extremely sour grapes. Mind you, I wish I could get in on a "pretty boys" chorus too . . .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM

Tony, the BBC is completely within its remit to excercise an internal process of quality control. If they couldn't find a producer who would champion your music, maybe they simply didn't think it was of the standard they were looking for. It's not just a quantative process - it's a qualitative one as well. Personally, I'm not sure that everyone who gets 1000 signatures on a petition has a god-given right to national airplay.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM

Had a listen on the Youtube and I like Morays's All You Pretty Girls. Good stuff.

M3 T00. I, um, refamiliarised myself with the XTC version first, & I got an inkling of what you could do to it, but Jim M's version surpassed all expectations. The brass is genius.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:31 PM

I am confused ....why did JM pick up the gong for best song when he didn't write it...am I missing something?

Sarah

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:32 PM

Hi Ruth,
       Just a couple of points in reply firstly it was not a petition it was 1000 individuals sending email requests into radio two using there time and there own words
Secondly the reason people sent in the requests was because we accepted that the powers that be need to filter the good from the bad. Our fans were trying to show them that there is a market for our music the question posed was how many unsigned performers can get over 1000 requests……….

answers on a post card.



But you could be right maybe we are crap! WLD can we come and sit in your corner!!!

Tony

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Barden of England
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:34 PM

I've not bothered to read too much of this thread but one thing struck me from the knowlegeable Derek Schofield, and I have deliberatley pulled this particular part from his earlier post:-
But it's only an hour, there are as many opinions as there are folkies (certainly on Mudcat) and the programme, I am sure, has all sort of pressures from the BBC. Those pressures are probably financial (have you seen the cut backs throughout the BBC?) and no doubt artistic in order to keep up the ratings.
My view of this is that the BBC is a public broadcaster,and should not be chasing ratings. How many times has a well known pop star been on the BBC promoting their latest single/album/fitness video at our expense? Is it because these people are on there so often that the BBC cannot, and does not, fulfill its charter?
John Barden

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:50 PM

"I am confused- why did JM pick up the gong for the best song when he didn't write it?"

Possibly because Andy Partridge hadn't turned up - because of the snow, or for whatever reason.

Even just before the ceremony, He (JM) didn't know whether AP was there or not, and had to strive to discover..

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM

I didn't say you were crap, Tony - I suggested that there is an internal editorial process which isn't simply about who can get the greatest numbers of their fans to write in to the station. I think that's a bit of a slippery slope as a programming policy, to be honest, and I can see why it's not a road the BBC would necessarily wish to embark upon.

Sarah the flute: the criteria for Best Original Song was discussed exhaustively in the run-up to the awards. All you Pretty girls falls quite safely within the parameters of the award as defined by the BBC. Moreover, this is not the first time that a song has won in the category which was not written by the performer.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:05 PM

Just to try to put things into perspective...

Yay! Lovely, talented, Jackie Oates won an award! About time too!

Whingers! Stop whinging and go and buy a copy of the Violet Hour! Even better, go and see her live!

Hooray for Jackie! Well done, mate!

(Sorry to come over all Lizzie, but really - some of you need to get a life and get a grip. And listen to what that nice Mrs Archer has to say).

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:07 PM

Is this a kind of English 'grammy' for folk?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:12 PM

robomatic: pretty much, yes.

I agree with Spleen Cringe: I heart Jackie Oates.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:28 PM

Just listening to the replay of the Awards.

I wasn't offended by Rob Bryden's comedy.

Yeppers! Oates is good and new to me.   
Think I am in love with Chris Wood. Shhhhh! Don't tell my partner.

Burt Jansch and Ralph McTell - WOW!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:48 PM

VT... that's possibly because Rob Brydon is an honest-to-goodness comedy genius. If you ever want a fab night in get hold of Human Remains, the mockumentary series he did with Julia Davis an few years back...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:14 PM

Sorry to come in late to this one since I have a passionate interest.

Once again - how many have written to the Beeb with your opinions? It is absolutely no good bleating on here. They do take notice if you go about it in the correct way. I have proved it. Yes they also block and frustrate you. They must have an archive a yard high with my letters. If there was a thousand archives like that it might have helped.

Here is an alternative.....

Find your local community radio station and get them to have a folk music programme. No community station? Go and start one. It is easier to talk about doing it on here than actually going out and doing it. That's how Sheffield Live! started, a bunch of people passionate about radio set it up.

The recipients this year were not the "usual suspects" as people have come to call them - some of whom make great music. I have still never worked out why Eliza's version of her Uncle's song "Jack Frost" didn't win a few years ago.

I happen to think this second record of Jim Moray is superb and I'd like to have been on the chorus of Pretty Girls too.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:15 PM

SOS. Same Old Shite.


we're all bitter, got sour grapes,

Not really .....we just can't understand how you can be so blind as to think SOS is the folkmusic of England.

It matters cos a freight train without coaches can't really prove its a freight train and your lot has long enough and opportunity enough (usually public funded) to prove its a freight train.

Nobody in any numbers is singing its songs or dancing its dances.

We want a sea change ...something strange and beautiful.

there isn't another voice like Una's of NFA on the folkscene. Qualitative judgement from that gang of wankers, give me a break.....

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:23 PM

Hi Spleen

I was just referring earlier posters complaints about comments that mock folk musicians coming from celebrities who are not folk.

I am familiar with Brydon. I have seen him on QI, Jack Dee at the Apollo, and Annually Retentive. Very funny guy.

Now back to the crucially important stuff. We got the free download of Anji tribute to Davey Graham by Jansch and McTell. It is only available this week.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:24 PM

So Al, can you tell me which of the entrants has done anything to deserve your contempt? And what exactly it is they've done?

Why should people like Jackie Oates and Jim Moray be subjected to such unsubstantiated hostility? Have you even listened to their albums? Or heard them play live? What basis are you judging them on? The fact that they aren't 60 year old singer songwriters who've spent the last 40 years "earning their dues"?

For god's sake, get a grip, give the bitterness a rest for once in your life and let them enjoy their moment. Surely you don't begrudge them that?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:33 PM

Just thinking back on Brydon's folk jokes and all the typical associations set in a pub punch up. Broken pipe, someone's finger permanently stuck in their ear, etc. He forgot one. Instead of somone getting glassed, they could get tankard.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:37 PM

snerk!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:48 PM

Al is winding people up.

Stop biting folks. He doesn't mean it.

How do I know? Because he never backs his opinions with anything remotely like a fact.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:53 PM

Fair point, Dave. I still think it's pitiful behaviour though.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:00 PM

"Not really .....we just can't understand how you can be so blind as to think SOS is the folkmusic of England."

As someone who spends an awful lot of time listening to the folk music of England, Al, I feel pretty qualified to make my own judgements, thank you. My eyes are wide open.

"there isn't another voice like Una's of NFA on the folkscene."

There isn't another voice on the folk scene like Jackie's, either. From a purely personal point of view, I would rather listen to Jackie. And you know what, Al? That's all any of this is - collective personal tastes, not one person or band necessarily being "better" than another. Those kinds of qualitative absolutes are meaningless when it comes to artistic expression.

I remember your rant on the YFA thread, where you were quite abusive about some of the entrants and the winners. You seemed to genuinely begrudge these kids the opportunities they were getting - and like it or not, the subtext was "Me and my mates have never had these opportunities, why should these kids get them? We're MUCH better than they are." But that is the cumulative effect of a lot of sour grapes, I'm afraid. And the thing is, life ain't fair. Some people get opportunities, others don't. That's just the way it is.

I'd like to offer a bit of advice. There are an awful lot of people who read this forum; not all of them contribute. If you think that the sort of campaign you've waged on behalf of some of the bands you champion is a good way of getting them gigs, I may have to disagree. No one likes being told that their taste is shit, or that they MUST book someone, or being generally abused and harangued, or seeing some performers being repeatedly obnoxious about other performers and insisting that only the bands that they like are any good. This approach may well do yourself and the bands you champion more harm than good, because the business isn't just about what you put on stage, it's about people that are easy and affable to work with. Given the huge weight of very talented people who ask me for gigs, for example, am I likely to book someone who I think is going to be a difficult, miserable git? Well - would you?

Just something to think about.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:44 PM

(usually public funded)

FFS Al have you ever succesfully applied for public funding for the Arts? Any sort of Arts? And even better ever applied for Private funding?

My wife applied (successfully) for a lottery grant and nothing to do with folk music I might add.

Probably for £5,000 worked out at £10.00 per hour. About the same as people get busking.

The idea that public funding is just waiting there to be given out can only be referred to by someone who has never succesfully applied for it.

Now Al, you have had a bite from Ruth and one from me against my own better judgement.

Give it a rest.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:45 PM

Not really Ruth. I'm not waging campaigns on behalf of anyone. You won - hands down.

the middle classes always do.

Mary Maccarthy used to have this apothegm - naked power always discomforts the cerebral.

Maybe Mary was right, but its not going to stop me thinking my thoughts.

However I'm entitled to my opinions. And they are shared by virtually everybody outside the charmed circle.

People don't like being the dog that is waved by this stump on the rump of a once great artistic movement. You can't make us like it.

It offends our intelligence.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:01 PM

"In 1649 on St George's Hill
There was tis band they call the Diggers . . . "

. . . who were at least turning the world upside down to some purpose.

Al, give it a rest. You're spouting totally meaningless bollocks.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:20 PM

"I'm not waging campaigns on behalf of anyone."

That isn't how it looks.


"the middle classes always do"

Don't presume to wave your prolier-than-thou, "My council estate was rougher than your council estate" crap at me. You have no idea about my background.


"However I'm entitled to my opinions. And they are shared by virtually everybody outside the charmed circle."


Waiting for this great weight of opinion to manifest itself, Al. So far it seems to be largely you, moaning because you and your mates don't get enough recognition. I reiterate that I think this is a piss-poor way of trying to achieve it, and the stench of sour grapes eventually pervades these threads.


"You can't make us like it.

It offends our intelligence."

Like whatever you like. Or not. I don't really care, and as I said, these things are about personal taste and not qualitative absolutes. But taking pot shots at those who are doing well just looks petty and small-minded.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:33 PM

Put it another way.

Folkie dave and Spleen cringe

I have not contempt for the people who got the awards. On the contrary I have respect. You don't get that good without a lot of practice etc.

But they don't set my mind on fire. Some people do. Most of 'em are dead, after having been driven into exile. Others hang around to pick up the crumbs tossed to them by the English folkscene.

You people don't feel even a twinge of remorse for the geniuses you have neglected and driven to the edge.

All i know is on the few occasions I get asked to do a gig on the folkscene it always seems to be with second generation - the sort of trainee mediocrities. And its quite embarassing - you get people from the audience thanking you for not ignoring them - like all the other proponents of this great tradition - the one that somehow bypassed everybody you know.

I'm sixty as you point out. I have no future on the folkscene or anywhere else, because of my heart condition, but my heart bleeds for the me of twenty five years ago and the people like No Fixed abode that I see in the same position now.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:21 PM

You're still making absolutely no sense other than a very nasty wail of bitterness, envy and jealousy.
A few musicians get honoured by some of their peers. That's all it is. Sure, it boosts their careers but what, other than your own selfishness, prevents you from being happy for them and their achievements?
Other lists of awards are available. The Folk Awards are not (as Ruth says) qualitative absolutes and you may continue to like whoever it is you want even if no-one else has ever heard of them.
To describe these people as "geniuses neglected and driven to the edge" is ridiculous, arrogant hyperbole.
They may not be seeking this sort of recognition but for anyone who is, the criteria and examples to follow are quite clearly delineated and not travelling these routes does not indicate, necessarily, that an artist is "no good".

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 03:26 AM

"You people don't feel even a twinge of remorse for the geniuses you have neglected and driven to the edge"

Can't speak for anyone else (though it seems to me that Dave's radio show is pretty inclusive), but as a paying punter, and little more, I'm not sure how I can do the dastardly deed you describe. I haven't got the time or money to buy every folk record that comes out or go to every gig. So I do what any other listener does and I pick and choose those artists who's work moves me. Sometimes I take a gamble on stuff I don't know - sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. If I think someone's really good I'll tell people about it.

I can't feel remorseful about the "geniuses" I've somehow neglected if I don't even know who the buggers are! Instead of carping, why not tell us about them? People can then make their own minds up. So far from you I know about John Kelly (love his album), Jack Hudson (not my cup of tea), No Fixed Abode (singer has a good voice, but that 70s country-pop thing isn't really my bag, though I know people who would probably like it and will recommend it to them) and, um, that's about it. Which other unsung geniuses do you want to tell us about? And why are they in hiding?

Meanwhile you may say you respect the winners of these awards (and of course its your right not to enjoy their music), but if you reread your own posts surely you can see why it looks like little that you say confirms this?

I don't know about the you of 25 years ago, because back then I was a 20 year old who liked his post-punk music LOUD! A 35 year old folk singer certainly wouldn't have been on my radar then... sorry!

Personally, I'd rather hear further positive recommendations about people you think we are missing out on than popshots at people.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:06 AM

(though it seems to me that Dave's radio show is pretty inclusive),

I do try and the playlist is there for anyone to take pot shots at - should they think that is the way forward.

I even gave up the show one week for Tony from NFA to play his choice with no restrictions as to his choice of music (apart from the structure of the show). That's really exclusive Al.

So FFS don't accuse me of being exclusive,

I am prepared to bet my toilet was further down the yard than yours to show my working class credentials if you think it would be of help. And I can think of no genius from the UK folk scene I have ever neglected. But you seem to know.

Now I am off to an important football match at Beautiful Downtown Bramall Lane. UTB.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:14 AM

I don't think I can take this relationship any further.

I don't ask you to share my point of view. You obviously don't. But my views are not based on bitterness and negativity but the vision that keeps my music sharp. Its as much about what you reject as what you warm to.

I don't ask you to share my vision - merely - try and respect the right of other people to have a different point of view and to express that point of view.

The fact that YOUR point of view seems to be based on sucking up the powers that be, and a reading of AL Lloyd that is minimalistic, divisive and suppresses the voices of the English people should occasionally give you pause for thought.

However someone else is going to have provide the pauses. I am finding the temperature on Planet Mudcat a tad unpleasant.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:21 AM

Al, it seems to me that you're trying to have three separate arguments at once: one about middle-class traddie purists taking the folk scene away from its working-class roots, one about cliques running the BBC and one about how singers you like can't get a hearing. The clique stuff is vague, the class stuff is even vaguer, and you keep trying to stand them both up by referring back to stuff that you personally do and don't like.

Take Jack Hudson. I'm sure he's terrific at what he does, but what's so working-class-music-of-the-people about doing covers of LA Freeway and Dixie Chicken? It says nothing to me about my life, and it wouldn't have said anything to my Dad about his. It's personal taste, it really is.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:44 AM

Al, can you not just accept that I have different musical taste to you?

Why do you extrapolate from this to make assumptions about what I read, my family background, my relationship with the music industry and on and on?

And how come you can puff and bluster like a wounded bull but as soon as anyone challenges you act all hurt and huffy and threaten to take your ball away?

If I was to play your game I would extroplate from your posts that you are an emotionally sensitive extrovert who steams into conflict situations yet conversely can't stand conflict.

I do have the good grace to say in advance that I might be talking completed bollocks when I say that, though...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:52 AM

"I don't ask you to share my vision - merely - try and respect the right of other people to have a different point of view and to express that point of view."

Al, if you frame your arguments with "everything that is currently doing well is shit, and the only stuff of any quality is what I like", it is hard to have respect for that point of view. If you want respect, it helps to give some.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:21 AM

Stepping aside for a moment (because I think it's about time) from Al's convoluted, whingeing paranoia, I'd like to return to what someone (who was at least investigating the earlier output of this year's FA contenders) mentioned about Jim Moray's April Morning on YouTube. This recording was put together six years ago as part of Sweet England, Jim's music degree finals dissertation, pro-tooled together in his bedroom. The music files didn't see a studio until Simon Emmerson decided to help out with mastering and it thus became Jim's debut CD, released on his own label.

On that particular track he did, I think, use a mate for the drumming but otherwise, all instruments (including pedal steel) were played by him and Jackie added violin and multitracked backing vocals. From there, they are where they are now, successful and acclaimed as a result of their own hard work. What's not to congratulate?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 07:38 AM

Why so much huffing and puffing? The term "Mockery" must be very upsetting for the people worked on the show. I feel the BBC are to be congratulated on their production of Folk Awards 2009. I listened to the whole Wednesday night progamme and am sure I heard some material that touched on folk music.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:42 AM

BBC Radio Two provides easy listening for mass audiences. It's there to calm frustrated motorists stuck in traffic jams, and to cheer lonely home-makers struggling with mountains of dirty laundry.

On the whole, R2 does this job pretty well. So why be astonished if its "flagship" folk programme (and the associated awards list) is usually a tad bland? Blandness is what the majority of R2 listeners appear to want. And what's bland is not always bad – though something's wrong with radio if bland is all it ever has to offer.

Viewed from this perspective, it's encouraging that some unfamiliar and challenging material does get aired on the Harding show, along with all the predictable items from the official play-list. What's more worrying is how little coverage of folk music there is elsewhere on BBC radio.   (Compare the quantity, the range, and the quality of the jazz programmes on Radio Three, and ask yourself – or your Controller – why folk doesn't get similar attention.)

As to the question of whether this unfortunate situation is part of a wider middle-class conspiracy to deprive the workers of their rights – well, I have serious doubts about that, but lack the time to debate the issue here.   Musicians of all genres - amateurs, semi-pros and professionals - have known hard times before this.   Individuals may fall by the wayside, but the music survives. And it will continue to survive, if we care enough about it.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 10:29 AM

Spleen Cringe
Which other unsung geniuses do you want to tell us about? And why are they in hiding?


Last year we did 130 gigs......hardly hiding..........

But then again true we tend to take our music out into the real world so I guess that could be the problem.

Tony

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 10:34 AM

Hey Tony. Reread my post, will ya?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Marje
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM

Great to hear Jackie Oates and Chris Wood getting their gongs.

And to "Guest" up thataway who wondered why there were no Irish musicians - this is the British Broadcasting Association's awards, funded by British licence payers, so they relate to (mainly) British music. In any case Irish radio stations are already awash with Irish music, which also gets plenty recognition from its own establishment in a way that English music (as distinct from Scottish) does not.

And Mike Harding's programme, to which you are apparently not a regular listener, often features Irish music, in fact probably more often than English or Scottish. This is the cause of frequent complaints by English listeners, many of whom who would like just one hour a week's national radio dedicated to English traditional music, but have to make do with the mix of English, Scottish, Irish and American music on the Mike Harding Show.

Marje

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: evansakes
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM

The trouble with the folk scene that there are far too many people who think that they have a god-given right to make a living from it.

Many of these people also feel they ought to receive widespread recognition, accolades, awards etc while they strive to achieve this.

Some of this number then have the audacity and cheek to moan, groan and complain about those among them that actually DO receive some or all of the above.

It now seems once in a while an embittered self proclaimed "unsung genius" sticks his head up over the parapet.

I suggest it might be more gracious and constructive for all aspiring folk pros or semi-pros to celebrate those who whether by great artistry or good fortune (usually it's a combination of the two) have been lucky to receive the odd laurel or two.

So congratulations to Chris Wood, Chris While and Julie Matthews, Jackie Oates, Tom McConville, Lau, Andy Partridge, Jim Moray, The Demon Barbers. Not all of them would necessarily have got our vote but we wouldn't begrudge any of them their successes. Hats off also to all the others lucky enough to get nominations. Extra special kudos to Judy Collins, James Taylor and not forgetting the Black Swan Folk Club all of whom were being getting recognition for great work over many decades.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 11:15 AM

Hi Diane

I'd like to return to what someone (who was at least investigating the earlier output of this year's FA contenders) mentioned about Jim Moray's April Morning on YouTube. .........

Thanks for the info. Guess I might have been a little harsh. Perhaps on that particular track I felt let down because it started so clean and crisp with just his voice and that lovely guitar.

I have a penchant for simplicity, especially re certain types of song. I was quite excited at first listen because the only version of April Morning I've heard is by Folly Bridge. (I am still very new to this music scene). Though the FB harmony is fun, JM's version (at the beginning) was thrilling because of the purity. I cannot help that the entire arrangement is not to my taste. But I am impressed at how it was arrived at. Thank you for sharing that information with me.

I beleive my daugher Andie would have loved the whole piece and I daresay much of his work. She would be still young enough and was musically trained (majored in vocal performance, minored in music education at uni) to appreciate all the fine points, lost on an ignorant old lady like me.

Maybe someday, when time and money and health permit, I will be able to see JM live.

Regards

Tam

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 12:33 PM

"The trouble with the folk scene that there are far too many people who think that they have a god-given right to make a living from it."

As a friend of mne is wont to say,"another awards show with all the usual suspects in attendance."

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:10 PM

I think Al has a good point,there are many very good performers,who dont get the recognition they deserve.
some of these, are songwriters ,some are performers of traditional material/roots material .,some are instrumentalists
they are [imo]what makes the folkscene interesting,they are often slightly off beat or anti establishment,and not what the folk music industry,appears[imo] to want to promote.
This is not intended as a criticism of this years winners,I am sure they are very competent/good in their own way,but they are only the best[ in the subjective opinion of the judges,like all competetions]of those that the judges are aware of, or wish to consider,or promote ,
so how seriously should these awards be taken.
I dont think they should be taken too seriously.
in my opinion the folkscene has become too much like the popular music business,I think and hope the quest for commercialisng folk music is doomed,because unfortunately in the attempt to popularise it,its very essence can become changed,
so I generally ignore these awards,and carry on listening to source musicians,like Roscoe Holcomb,Bobby Casey,Phil Tanner .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:59 PM

Just been listening to Chris Wood's "Trespasser" (again).

Stunning. The superb 13 minute epic "England in Ribbons" is hardly bland, identikit Radio Two fare...

The usual suspects? My arse!

A treat: Chris on Youtube doing Come Down Jehovah

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:06 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3Ow4uxRuIU&feature=related This is very good too,Martin Simpson

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Reinhard
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:24 PM

I grew up with pop music and of course was heavily influenced by charts, music press etc. At the end of my teenage years I was lucky to learn of electric folk and grew from it to more and more traditional music. I still listen to the "subjective opinion of the judges, like all competitions", but they no longer dictate what I have to like. I rather see them as suggestions to listen to exciting musicians that I never heard of before (Tom McConville) or that I'm not familiar with (Chris Wood). Of course there may be music that doesn't appeal to me; and the competitions won't cause me to drop those musicians that I like but who are not the current fad. But that is just having one's own opinion.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:27 PM

"I may have to disagree. No one likes being told that their taste is shit, or that they MUST book someone, or being generally abused and harangued, or seeing some performers being repeatedly obnoxious about other performers and insisting that only the bands that they like are any good. This approach may well do yourself and the bands you champion more harm than good, because the business isn't just about what you put on stage, it's about people that are easy and affable to work with. Given the huge weight of very talented people who ask me for gigs, for example, am I likely to book someone who I think is going to be a difficult, miserable git? Well - would you?

Just something to think about."



Well, I thought about it, and it took me back to that somewhat now infamous time on the BBC board, when the author of those very words above stated she'd rather stick pins in her eyes than listen to the music of Show of Hands, without one single thought for the musicians involved, or for the somewhat abusive message that was being put out to others about their music.

>"I may have to disagree. No one likes being told that their taste is shit..."<

Absolutely. And that's why I've been standing up for all the musicians whose music I love, for years and years now, despite being told my taste is 'shit' by some of the very people in here who are criticising Al for it.

Back to Hypocrites R Us, I guess.


I'm also in agreement with Al.

Good luck to all who won their Awards this year, and for all the other years too. This argument is *nothing* to do with their talent, skills or anything else. It is to do with the way the whole system is run.

When I first found Folk Music, BOY! was I excited!! Then, I found they had a Folk Awards! And I got even MORE excited! I sang it's praises to the rooftops, I watched it on BBC4, wrote about it on the BBC board, etc..etc..etc..

Then, I started to notice something over the years..and that was how the same artists kept getting nominated year, after year, after year.....Not only that, but often, the same people kept on winning, year after year. This was all deemed PERFECTLY acceptable until that other now infamous happening, when Show of Hands WON the first ever Public Vote, for 'Best Live Act'.

Oh dear me. :0(

Show of Hands had 'got in under the radar' as Ian Anderson described artists who 'they' deemed unacceptable to the 'folk world'...

Suddenly, the system was changed, within DAYS! The slurs started, written by er...one particular Princess on here, allegations that the Show of Hands fans had 'fixed' the vote. Ha! They'd simply voted, in their thousands, because......there are THOUSANDS of them. But that suddenly wasn't allowed, because, as the BBC host, Mel, said, 'they'd just keep winning the Public Vote year after year'....and she also stated that the only person who'd be happy about that would be me.

She was wrong actually. I'd not have wanted that to happen, neither, I'm sure, would Show of Hands. All they had to do was ensure that no artist/s could win the public vote two years running. Problem solved.


So, let me get this straight. Show of Hands, and anyone else 'outside the radar' are NOT allowed to win Awards year after year, but those INSIDE the 'radar' ARE?

OKKKKKKKKKKKKKay!

I asked who the judges were. Ian Anderson was one. Not a clue who the others were, or are, to this day. I pointed out how deeply unfair it was to have a judge who had 'radar' around his little world of accpeted acts. Needless to say, this wasn't liked much, and I fast went from being Smooth Ops Darling, to their biggest enemy.

I also stated that the Folk Awards were the ONE time when the folk world can help an amazing amount of artists in their careers, get their names out to others. Why then were the same artists not only nominated year after year, but were, and still are, nomimated in MANY categories?

Why not have it so that one artist gets one nomination. The other nominations get shared around other artists in a fair and measured fashion.

They also should get shared around artists who are OUTSIDE the radar.

For way too long the Folk World has been stitched up by a cosy little group of people, who regard themselves as Big Fish in a Small Pond, and no way are they EVER going to let go of their positions, and their self-important, supercilious, sneeringly superior attitude to others.

Al is dead right. He always has been. And many of his posts hit home to these people, and they hit home hard! They don't like it, same as they don't like my posts either.

I've worked out how it all works over these years, and you know something, it stinks.

That is why I have no interest in the Folk Awards any longer. It's also why I have no respect whatsoever for Smooth Ops. And as far as writing to the BBC goes, Dave..people should save their ink, because they truly don't give a shite.

The Folk Awards are pretty much a private party for the Selected Ones, who come inside the radar of the Traddie side of folk. It's all they want it to be. You can see, from the various ways that singer songwriters are spat on by the same few people, that it won't ever change.

Of course, these people also tell us over and again, how intelligent and intellectual they all are, how much they know, how expert they are, yadda yadda yadda...without realising two important and very obvious facts.

1. TRUE Intellectuals *never* beat their own chests, calling themselves by that very name, or delighting in shoving down people's throats that they know FAR MORE than *you* do. Why? Because they're too darn busy helping others to learn, whilst never choosing to belittle them in any way whatsoever.

I have a lot of respect for the True Intellectuals, and Shit All for the Up Their Own Arses types who have a degree on paper which to me is worth nowt, because they have no degree in their heart.

2. The first man whoever hummed his tune, sang his song, wrote his words about what was happening around him about his love, his woes, was the very first Singer Songwriter.

Folk music has all to do with Singer Songwriters, and not those who have put their music and words under microscopes, so they can use their knowledge as weapons against others.

Without our Singer Songwriters, there would be NO folk awards, no traditional world, no Cecil Sharp House, no Folk World at all really.


I suggest the Folk Awards renames itself The Singer Songwriter Awards, because that way, it will be an honest representation of the very people who brought this music to life, and who, to this day, are keeping that Tradition going, just as Al Whittle is doing, just as No Fixed Abode are doing too.

Al's Myspace

No Fixed Abode's myspace

Al writes some great songs, and he knows how to deliver them too.

Listen to Una's voice, and tell me why they're not considered for Folk Awards too? Ashley Hutchings obviously thinks that they're pretty damned good, as he's playing on their CD.

So yes, I can perfectly understand how angry Al feels, because I feel exactly the same, but....I haven't been trying to get into a closed world as he, and countless others have been trying to do for so very long.

Thank Heavens that there are people like Al around to shout from the rafters about the Injustices that have been happening within the English Folk World for so very long.

Lizzie

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:20 AM

OK, Lizzie - you've had your little rant - in this thread, and in the other Folk Awards thread. When you start sounding too combative, I have to cut you off. You're no longer welcome to post in this thread, or on any other Folk Awards 2009 thread.
The rest of you, go back to the subject at hand. Any mention of Lizzie, and any posts from Lizzie will be deleted.

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 06:58 AM

Isn't there a bloke (now dead) called "Revolving" Cecil Sharpe?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:28 AM

TOP OATES

Best Original Song:

All You Pretty Girls Vid - final version

Best Traditional Song:

Lark In The Morning (Morris Offspring "Rising" version)

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:33 AM

Isn't there a bloke (now dead) called "Revolving" Cecil Sharpe?

What does this mean? I read through the thread and I googled. I don't get it.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Dave Earl
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:56 AM

"What's not to congratulate?"

Nothing!!

But if I like other stuff please allow me to say so.

End of my contribution to this thread.

Dave

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:58 AM

ARRGGHH! Diane what format is All the Pretty Girls in? No sound or video though it was tracker was showing it playing.

Jackie Oates uncompromisingly wonderful.

I listened to the Morris Offspring Band - Bitter Withy and Old Oss too.

Next on my CD wish list.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 07:10 PM

Jackie Oates's Lark is wonderful - thanks, Diane.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:42 AM

Ms Tam: All You Pretty Girls is just a later edit of what's on YouTube.
Mr Cap: No point in saying this now, Mr Whittle's out of the door.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:28 AM

I am glad to see freedom of speech has been restored .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: SunrayFC
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:50 AM

Oh dear what did I start.....only meant to say what I said. And I stand by that.

Keep happy and stay polite!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM

Sunray, you opening post was fine. Don't worry. It was the rest of us who had us a war...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Phil Beer
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:43 PM

Evening. Just passing through. Curiouser and curiouser. I was there. In the end I had to present a gong due to the 'no shows' (or was it snow shoes?) I don't recall anyone taking the mickey to any great extent that might serve to denigrate the music. David Puttnam and Steve Winwood were both dignified and articulate.Ade Emondsons appreciation of Jackies music is absolutely truthful and heartfelt. He does play her album in the car all the time. Harry Shearer wins the all time prize and , as far as I'm concerned can take the p**s if he wishes to. I can't even think about the sheer brilliance of the Folksmen without chuckling to myself. Mel was quite funny and certainly didn't offend anyones sensibilities in the room. Rob just went into standup mode and lifted the night in the right place. None of us lot are household names. Most of the presenters of gongs ARE which is the ENTIRE point. The involvement of these names brings a higher level of public 'cred' and therefore can only serve to enhance the genre. If you want people to come to your clubs, singarounds, concerts etc. They have to be aware of their existence. I suspect that the reason why my presentation of the Folk Club award was not included is because I'm one of the usual suspects and who wants to hear me droning on when most of the aforementioned are ten times more interesting!! As far as I am concerned, this was the best Awards yet. They got the balance right!!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:03 PM

Thanks for those comments - much the same as others have posted, Ruth Archer Who was also there) posted ear;lier that the speeches were in order; people have also pointed out the need to raise the profile and the need to have some "names" there.

Nice to have it confirmed from someone else who was there.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:49 AM

Anyone got an application form for this "Inner Folk Circle"?
Does one get to wear an apron, and do peculiar things with goats? I hope so. (I likes goats me!).
Seriously I'm with Mr Beer.
And for the prolier than thou crowd. Just listen (and I mean LISTEN) to the words of Chris Woods winning song. A better and restrained anti middle-class rant, I've yet to hear.
I've never heard of Al or NFA. Doesn't mean they're bad or anything like that. They just haven't fallen into my Radar!
Also haven't heard of most of the Brit winners of the Grammys. Some 21 year old girl, was one. can't remember her name, or her song. But she won an award as the best newcomer. Good for her. Doubt if I'll be rushing out to HMV though.
All in all, The FA is what it is. Not perfect, but better than nothing.
Most working people have Christmas parties. This is the Folk version. Whats wrong with that?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 03:31 AM

(I likes goats me!).

I wondered why there was never a goat in sight during Folk Week at Sidmnouth whilst there are loads the rest of the year!

The cry used to be "lock up your daughters", now it's "lock up your goats!!"

It's an age thing I suppose......

:-)>

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:14 AM

I've said this elsewhere, but I strongly suspect that the recent surge in folk-type programmes on BBC4 etc will have been influenced by the incontrovertible evidence of excellence and popularity placed before senior BBC execs at the awards. Those who deny the trickle effect may not be looking at the whole picture, or seeing the future potential. I'm also reasonably confident that the balanced spread of nominees this year, and the freshness of the results, has been influenced by recent rule changes such as agents being prevented from voting for their own acts. Which suggests that gentle positive agitation can deliver results. If there is a 'buggins turn' factor at work, then this seems to be coming, naturally, from the panel, as it should. Phil explains the need for famous faces better than I've yet been able to. Tom

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 07:17 AM

Not perfect, but better than nothing.
no, we dont need these awards,no disrespect or slight on any of the winners,but they are [IMO] UNECESSARY.
What the folk scene needs is more workshops ,so that those who wish to improve can do so.
the need for improvement[imo] is in the standard of floorsingers

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Surreysinger
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 07:27 AM

"Inner Folk Circle" ? sounds like something on the London tube circuit .... or a slightly dodgy sect. I'd quite like an apron, but am not sure about the goats thing!

Re the Grammys, Ralphie the young lady in question was Adele and herewith a video of her single Chasing Pavements Not bad, but I must agree that I won't be rushing to HMV in the very immediate future - not really my cup of tea at all.

Very interesting and valid points from both Phil and Tom, although I'm not totally swayed by the argument that "the incontrovertible evidence of excellence and popularity" has been recognised ... popularity maybe ... but excellence? We know that, of course, but I wonder if the talking heads at the top really do?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:01 AM

But Cap'n, don't we need events like the Awards to attract new and young people to the genre?

Workshops are a great idea, But they will only draw the already converted.
If people who are unfamiliar with the music are not exposed to it by these programmes, what will the future be like?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:02 AM

A contender for next year's best original song:

THE BALLAD OF CASEY'S BILLY-GOAT

Intro: You've heard of "Casey at The Bat"
And "Casey's Tabble Dote"
But now it's time
To write a rhyme
Of "Casey's Billy-goat."

Pat Casey had a billy-goat he gave the name of Shamus,
Because it was (the neighbours said) a national disgrace.
And sure enough that animal was eminently famous
For masticating every rag of laundry round the place.
For shirts to skirts prodigiously it proved its powers of chewing
The question of digestion seemed to matter not at all
But you'll agree, I think with me, its limit of misdoing
Was reached the day it swallowed Missis Rooney's ould red shawl.

Now Missis Annie Rooney was a winsome widow women
And many a bouncing boy had sought to make her change her name
And living just across the way 'twas surely only human
A lonesome man like Casey should be wishfully the same.
So every Sunday, shaved and shined, he'd make the fine occasion
To call upon the lady, and she'd take his and coat;
And supping tea it seemed that she might yield to his persuasion
But alas! he hadn't counted on that devastating goat.

For Shamus loved his master with a deep and dumb devotion,
And everywhere that Casey went that goat would want to go
And though I cannot analyze a quadruped's emotion,
They said the baste was jealous, and I reckon it was so.
For every time that Casey went to call on Missis Rooney
Beside the gate the goat would wait with woefulness intense
Until one day it chanced that they were fast becoming spooney
When Shamus spied that ould red shawl a-flutter on the fence.

Now Missis Rooney loved that shawl beyond all rhyme or reason
And maybe 'twas an heirloom or a cherished souvenir
For judging by the way she wore it season after season,
I might have been as precious as a product of Cashmere.
So Shamus strolled towards it, and no doubt the colour pleased him
For he biffed it and he sniffed it, as most any goat might do
Then his melancholy vanished as a sense of hunger seized him
And he wagged his tail with rapture as he started in to chew.

"Begorrah! you're a daisy," said the doting Mister Casey
to the blushing Widow Rooney as they parted at the door.
"Wid yer tinderness an' tazin' sure ye've set me heart a-blazin'
And I dread the day I'll nivver see me Anniw anny more."
"Go on now wid yer blarney," said the widow softly sighing;
And she went to pull his whiskers, when dismay her bosom smote. . . .
Her ould red shawl! 'Twas missin' where she'd left it bravely drying
Then she saw it disappearing - down the neck of Casey's goat.

Fiercely flamed her Irish temper, "Look!" says she, "The thavin' divvle
Sure he's made me shawl his supper, well, I hope it's to his taste
But excuse me, Mister Casey, if I seem to be oncivil
For I'll nivver wed a man wid such a misbegotten baste."
So she slammed the door and left him in a state of consternation,
And he couldn't understand it, till he saw that grinning goat.
Then with eloquence he cussed it, and his final fulmination
Was a poem of profanity impossible to quote.

So blasting goats and petticoats and feeling downright sinful
Despairfully he wandered in to Shinnigan's shebeen;
And straightway he proceeded to absorb a might skinful
Of the deadliest variety of Shinnigan's potheen.
And when he started homeward it was in the early morning,
But Shamus followed faithfully, a yard behind his back.
Then Casey slipped and stumbled, and without the slightest warning
Like a lump of lead he tumbled - right across the railroad track.

And there he lay, serenely, and defied the powers to budge him,
Reposing like a baby, with his head upon the rail;
But Shamus seemed unhappy, and from time to time would nudge him,
Though his prods to protestation were without the least avail.
Then to that goatish mind, maybe, a sense of fell disaster
Came stealing like a spectre in the dim and dreary dawn
For his bleat of warning blended with the snoring of his master
In a chorus of calamity - but Casey slumbered on.

Yet oh, that goat was troubled, for his efforts were redoubled
Now he tugged at Casey's whisker, now he nibbled at his ear
Now he shook him by the shoulder, and with fear become bolder
He bellowed like a fog-horn, but the sleeper did not hear.
Then up and down the railway line he scampered for assistance
But anxiously he hurried back and sought with tug and strain
To pull his master off the track . . . when sudden! in the distance
He heard the roar and rumble of the fast approaching train.

Did Shamus faint and falter? No, he stood there stark and splendid.
True, his tummy was distended, but he gave his horns a toss.
By them his goathood's honour would be gallantly defended
And if their valour failed him - he would perish with his boss
So dauntlessly he lowered his head, and ever clearer, clearer,
He heard the throb and thunder of the Continental Mail.
He would face the mighty monster. It was coming nearer, nearer.
He would fight it, he would smite it, but he'd never show his tail.

Can you see that hirsute hero, standing there in tragic glory?
Can you hear the Pullman porters shrieking horror to the sky?
No, you can't; because my story has no end so grim and gory,
For Shamus did not perish and his master did not die.
At this very present moment Casey swaggers hale and hearty,
And Shamus strolls beside him with a bright bell at his throat
While recent Missis Rooney is the gayest of the party,
For now she's Missis Casey and she's crazy for that goat.

You're wondering what happened? Well, you know that truth is stranger
Than the wildest brand of fiction, so I'll tell you without shame.
There was Shamus and his master in the face of awful danger,
And the giant locomotive dashing down in smoke and flame.
What power on earth could save them? Yet a golden inspiration
To gods and goats alike may come, so in that brutish brain
A thought was born - the ould red shawl. . . . Then rearing with elation,
Like lightning Shamus threw it up - AND FLAGGED AND STOPPED THE TRAIN.

(Robert W. Service, Bar-Room Ballads, 1940)

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:25 AM

But Cap'n, don't we need events like the Awards to attract new and young people to the genre?.
no, I dont think we do .
the best thing the BBC ever did was John Pearses HOLD DOWN A CHORD,
the BBC[imo] would be better employed,Having somebody exploring different fiddle and other instrumental styles,explaining the difference in regional styles,within the islands of and close to Britain[including ireland.],and or exploring in depth the unaccompanied singing traditions of these islands.
and exploring in detail the morris traditions of this country
the BBCS role should be educational.
all the BBC awards do is promote various revival singers[Iam not saying they are not good performers ] but it isnot necessary,what is needed for a tree to flourish ,is that its roots are encouraged.
for the record if I was offered an MBE,or a BBC folkaward,I would refuse both .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: LesB
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:38 AM

Not eveyone wants to be a performer.
think anything that gets our music listened to by a wider range of people must be a good thing, nonwithstanding the good or bad, likes or dislikes, of the awards.
In my youth most of us started out either coming from The Spinnners end of the spectrum or from Steeleye Span / Fairport end. Thereby starting a liftime journey of discovery.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 09:12 AM

it is easy to make an assumption,that because we all like this kind of music,that everyone who sees it on television[whatever their age] will like it.
this is not so.
our kind of music, like jazz is a minority taste .
and while it has not been promoted well,there is no guarantee that even if the music was promoted well,that it would be popular.
my argument is that The BBC awards are not the best way to promote the music . ,and not the best way to improve standards in the folk revival.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 09:30 AM

We can have both! Award ceremonies for people like me who are glad that folk music attracts a bit of airtime and glad that someone thinks it worthwhile to celebrate the music on primetime radio. Workshops for people who can sing and play and want to improve. Like the ones the Snail's lot organise, for instance.

More generally, sometimes I think 'folkies' just like to have something to complain about. They think its part of the job description.

(And at the risk of repeating myself, isn't Jackie Oates fab? Isn't her version of 'Lark in the Morning' a corker and a deserving winner? Who'd be mean enough to begrudge it her and why on earth want to? And dontcha just love that shruti box?)

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 09:33 AM

And by the way, a colleague of mine who wouldn't usually spit on the entire folk canon if it was on fire, just came up to me yesterday to announce that she was now the proud owner of a Bellowhead album and she loved it! Where did she hear Bellowhead? On the radio!

Ok, back to business as usual...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 10:28 AM

Spleen, realistically we will not get both,so I would like to see the BBC awards scrapped,and something else,of a less competetive nature put in its place.
yes I have in the past mentioned some of the good points about Comhaltas competitions,but I also have reservations about these,however these competitions should not,and dont generally get air play.
the spin off musicians at the fleadhs[which are televised] are something different,but the competitions do not generally get television or radio play.
why cant the BBC promote folksong and dance without having competetive awards,preferably concentrating on the roots of the music rather than revival singers.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Stu
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM

"why cant the BBC promote folksong and dance without having competetive awards,preferably concentrating on the roots of the music rather than revival singers."

I feel pretty ambivalent about the Folk Awards, and as has been said they certainly serve a purpose (which is great) for the industry but I suspect to many of the great unwashed they seem like yet another award ceremony which is down in London and we get a slightly different version of Mike Harding's show (I wouldn't include the young folk awards in the same bracket, as virtually all of the competitors are unknown). I'm not criticising - there's some excellent music and superb musicians being acknowledged and if award ceremonies are your bag then great, but something is missing . . .

I believe the BBC could take a leaf out of Clare FM's book, as their kitchen sessions series does get to the roots of the music. But then here's a real and fundamental difference in the way the music is perceived by a section of the public in Ireland as opposed to the UK. Ordinary people playing, telling stories, dancing and singing in their own homes. These people have the music as an intrinsic part of their lives but are not performers, and whilst many of us here play in sessions week in, week out I'm not sure it's quite the same and unfortunately I can't see a time where there would be an English (is there a Welsh or Scottish version - I'd love to know) equivalent of this show.

Relevant, entertaining and above all authentic in a way ordinary people can relate to. Now that would be a real step forward in getting this music out there.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:41 AM

isn't Jackie Oates fab? Isn't her version of 'Lark in the Morning' a corker and a deserving winner? Who'd be mean enough to begrudge it her and why on earth want to?

I replied to this a few hours ago, reminding peeps of exactly who did just this. Someone who thinks no-one else should touch LITM since Steeleye recorded it in 1970. I gave a link to the Steeleye version, just I had already done to the version from the live Morris Offspring show Rising by Jackie Oates and Saul Rose.

So if you want to see the former version for comparison, featuring a bloke called "Carty" if the miserable old git who thinks life stopped then is to be believed, you'll just have to bloody well google it yourselves.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:54 AM

Diane,if someone, thinks that, are they not entitled to their opinion .we are not going to like exactly the same things.
now who can say that Chris Woods version of Jehovah is better than Martin Simpsons,I think they are both well performed,this is my whole point,competitive awards,are not the best way to promote this music, on the air,whether its radio or television

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM

I was replying to Cringychops' incredulous remark that no-one could possibly diss Jackie Oates by reminding the list that someone had, and in a very noisily axe-grinding way.
Martin Simpson has covered Come Down Jehovah, a song which Chris Woods wrote. He doesn't mind . . .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 12:12 PM

Cringychops?

That's quite sweet. I'm blushing...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 12:56 PM

Diane,you are missing my point.
I am talking about judging performance,and giving awards.
who wrote a song ,when it comes to judging a performance is irrelevant
   my point is this they are both good performances,and it is unnecessary to say one is a better performance than another.
lets take another song, john hardy[an American folk song,author unknown],Martin Simpson has a version on youtube ,so has Roscoe Holcomb,they are both performed very differently but in both cases very well,we dont need to say one is better than the other.
or ICARUS[author anne lister]MartinSimpson recorded this so did Nic Jones,they are both good versions,but we dont need a panel, to tell us one is better than another.
this music is not some top ten competition .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:19 PM

[Gimme strength . . . ]

Dick: the category is for Best Original Song from an album released during the past 12 months. Come Down Jehovah (written and performed by Chris Wood) was one of the nominations in this category. A version by Martin Simpson obviously was not as he has not got a version out on a CD released in the past year. Jim Moray won the category with All You Pretty Girls written by Andy Partiridge. The version of this song by XTC was not considered because it was released 20 years ago

Icarus is a complete red herring as no-one (as far as I know) released a version in the past year (or if they did it wasn't nominated).

Jackie Oates won the category for Best Traditional Track from her CD The Violet Hour released . . . yes, last year. It was not up against Steeleye Span's version from Please To See The King as that was released almost 40 years ago.

Quite simple, really.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM

I do understand what you mean Captain, the very concept of competition sits ill with what I love about music, but sometimes you have to sleep with the enemy.

It's their ball so we have to play by their rules.

If the award system is fair (better, but a little way to go still) and it gets mainstream attention (it does) and more importantly media attention (who go looking for more good stuff - as the BBC have done with BBC4) then it's worth swallowing the bait and swimming.

Most artists understand that this is a game, and well worth the candle. As long as no-one's being stitched up or pushed out we can all benefit to a lesser or perhaps even lesser extent - but we do.

Cost-wise its a reasonable use of the licence fee, given the demands and the constraints of mainstream broadcasting.

Yes, we can improve it - and we are slowly doing so.

Yes, we could do with additional, more grass-rooty awards - but other awards are available

Yes, we need more and different coverage of folk and heritage music in the media

Yes, workshops are a good thing and more would be grand

But no, scrapping the awards is unlikely to deliver any of the above.

When you manage to set a good found, you build on it. You don't wander off with the stones in your hand.

Tom

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:43 PM

"More generally, sometimes I think 'folkies' just like to have something to complain about. They think its part of the job description"

I mean does he write his own material or is there a script writer involved..?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:50 PM

God I would love the laying on of workshops and instructive programes by the BBC. Right there with that.

But it is not likley to happen is it? Sigh.

Now I am depressed, because I want this now. I want a weekly televised tune session for each of the following instruments.

Guitar, Mandolin, Mountain Dulcimer, Whistles and recorders and Bodhran. I draw the line at shaky eggs. If you need instruction for these there is no hope for you.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

good post Tom.
Diane. are you deliberately missing my point?, which is,that it is a nonsense to judge two good performers against each other,never mind examples,and who wrote what.
how can anyone say that one performers version of a song is better than anothers it is just subjective preference.
presumably there was a best singer award and best instrumentalist award as well as best songwriter ,sorry I dont like this concept,its a nonsense .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:47 PM

"That'll be John Tams, Barbara Dickson, Ade Edmundson, Linda Thompson, Phil Beer, etc. who have "no idea" will it, then."

Well, I can't speak for the others, but Barbara Dickson certainly does have an idea, given that she started out as a Folk Singer, herself.

If you don't believe me, just ask Jack Beck!

Cheers
Dick

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

No, I am not "missing your point". You don't appear to have one other than to demonstrate an inability to grasp what the Folk Awards are for.

I am no fan of Smoothops, nor, if it were up to me, would I organise the awards quite as they do operate. They are NOT, however, an exercise in picking out "the best" of all time (apart from when there was a public vote for "the most influential album of all time") but simply the choice of a voting panel from among what has emerged during the past year.

Thus the hypothetical examples you are hurling into the air do not accord with the reality of what does occur. Why don't you read the FA site?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:25 PM

Ptarmigan ,who said no idea,not my words.
Diane,My point is that these awards only use is that they further the winners careers, and provide a small amount of trad based music with a competitive formula. I think the BBC would be better off scrapping these awards,and putting on programmes that give in depth analysis of the roots of this music.,plus programmes like the hold down a chords series,but say using open tunings for guitar ,aand dealimg with other instruments
your opinion is different from mine .so why dont we beg to differ and leave it at that.good night

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:49 PM

Are you somehow confusing me with John Leonard or Bob Shennan? I'm simply giving an account of what Smoothops / R2 do, not offering an opinion on it.

Yes, the Folk Awards further the winners' careers. And?

BBC4 has transmitted (many times over) a series outlining the roots of trad music in these islands - Folk Britannia.

No, I am quite sure the BBC doesn't have plans for an Open Conservatoire. The ratings would be off the lower end of the scale.
Where would the budget come from, and to what end? Be realistic.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM

And maybe someone would complain that the tunes broadcasted were not as they'd like them.
Not anyone from here of course.

Al

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:57 PM

Dick - personally I want all folk musicians careers furthered.

Awards do this and there are other ways - but this is as good as anything we have at the moment.

Irish music in Ireland (and here to an extent) thrives on competition - I remember you telling the board with pride that you were a judge at one.

Likewise Scottish music - lots of competition. I went to one scottish festival last year. The village was so tiny, it took just a few minutes to walk the whole of it. There were 75 entrants in the piping competition. Don't tell me that wasn't a good thing.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:06 AM

Dave, because I once sat as a judge in a childrens competition is irrelevant ,my point is that this is not the best way to present folk music ,either on radio or television .
second point, I consider this sort of presentation second best,I am not prepared to accept second best.
third point,your competitions you visited were not on the air,so their mention is irrelevant.
the good as anything we have at the moment argument,is similiar to its good enough for folk ,folk music deserves a more sympathetic presentation ,this competition is not the best way to present and make people aware of the music,I want the best not just any old thing.
I am not interested in revival musicians careers being furthered,I am more concerned about the state of the revival folk scene[programmes like this do nothing to help ] and also the necessity of people to be aware of the roots of the music.
folk music [imo] would be better served with a more in depth presentation .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:21 AM

in depth presentation

And how would you fund this?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:35 AM

You may be right Captain, but how to achieve this - that's the question.

You see broadcast scheduling is a dark art, and one in which the senior members of the BBC are deeply steeped.

They are subject to all sorts of scrutiny and pressures from all sorts of places, and their pay depends on their ability to hack a way through the jungle and deliver what they understand that 'society,' i.e. the licence-fee payer, wants.

At the moment they don't think the kind of programming you advocate is wanted.

So if I, or any of the many better-placed folk-enthusiast broadcasters, submitted programme proposals along the lines you suggest they'd be told a polite 'no thanks,' on the basis that the interest would be too small. I know because I've tried many times and still occasionally do.

In order to get those kind of programmes on air two things have to happen simultaneously. The public has to decide it likes and wants that sort of thing, and the BBC editors have to decide the public wants it.

This is of course the proverbial 'hen/omlette 22 syndrome' because the audience won't know they like that sort of thing till they get it, but they won't get it because they don't like it. Yet.

So where do we start?

We start with the kind of programming that the BBC thinks the audience does like. IE The MH show and the R2FAs - and, now the BBC4 folk programmes (which as I explained above are a direct result, I believe, of the awards night parties).

Then, gradually over time, the suits notice how good and cheap folk music is, and what great telly it makes - close-ups of fingers, lovely shiny carved instruments, passionate faces, and gradually the media pundits and audience also start to notice the beauty and power of the music, and slowly there is a shift in public consciousness, until one day my phone rings... Hi Tom, you know that programme idea you sent in ten years ago....?

Scrapping the awards would just put that process back by ten years. And making Mike play 'proper' folk music would just loose Smoops the Wednesday contract.

If you really want to influence this process, I suggest you write frequently to the BBC (pretend you live in the UK though - they won't take so much notice of a non-licence-fee payer) and get your friends and fans to do so too.

But nicely. Or the letters will only wind up in the round file.

Tom

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:44 AM

"This is of course the proverbial 'hen/omlette 22 syndrome' because the audience won't know they like that sort of thing till they get it, but they won't get it because they don't like it."

Careful, Tom! This is one of the principles upon which our whole society is based ... perhaps it's one of the reasons why our whole society is in deep doo doo ... ?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:48 AM

Tom's way of putting it is the long way, but quite right nonetheless. I was simply describing the scenario when Dick went to pitch his idea:

First question: Who's your audience
2nd (as stated) How would this be paid for?
3rd: You remember where the door is, Mr Miles?

(This is, of course, presupposing that an invitation to a pitch meeting was forthcoming in the first place).

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:49 AM

Tom's point about radio scheduling is interesting because, on television (BBC4) we have had, over the last year, great televisual folk music. The Transatlantic Sessions 3 (this time last year) were a feast of just the things he quotes: "close-ups of fingers, lovely shiny carved instruments, passionate faces" - plus arty shots of Scottish lanscapes in the snow...

At the moment we've been simultaneously getting the Transatlantic Sessions from 1995 and the Folk America series. All good stuff on a large chuck of Friday evening's BBC4 output.

So it's possible - but perhaps the visual aspect of it all just makes better broadcast material than mere audio (!) :-)

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 05:10 AM

"perhaps the visual aspect of it all just makes better broadcast material than mere audio"

I think this is a good point. TV is firstly an audio medium (unlike film which is visual), and the pictures are better in radio, but hands and faces can make all the difference in explaining how folk music works.

The BBC is ruthlessly bi-media these days, but I think the main reasons for the BB4 flood are financial (most of the programmes are archive, therefore cheap) and niche. There is no equivalent to BBC4 in Radio. But I do hope that the success of the BBC4 programmes (I've not seen the figures, they might not have been as good as we hope) will influence decisions re folk material in the national shows that already broadcast some, Woman's Hour, Late Junction, Bob Harris etc, and discourage the axing of any more local folk shows. If we're lucky we might even get a few new ones - like the Durbs on Radio Leeds who have bucked the trend by going down the 'posse' route - all power to them.

It's a complex situation requiring good ideas and above all good networking.

The best networking opportunity by FAR is the awards night. Wine, laughter, suits aplenty including the DG and Arts ministers, with ears softened by alcohol, a small army of attractive (?) folk enthusiasts, all sorts of slebs coming out of the woodwork as closet folkies, and above all brilliant performances by some of our most talented artists.

We'd be barking to do anything other than give it our wholehearted support.

Tom

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 05:27 AM

Who are the people who are reviving folk? Who do people flock to see at Folk festivals? Now look at the list of people nominated for best band, best duo, best live act etc.

I happen to think, that BBC Folk Awards is reflecting what the folk revival is all about. OK so quite a few bands etc didn't make the nomination list, which is understandable. If the nominated people were the only ones people went to see, then the folk scene would be in a bad state.

The folk revival is not about traditional, stick your finger in your ear, a capella singers, reciting 40 verses. Its about new acts and bands providing a lively and refreshing approach to folk music, mixed with performers who have been treading the scene for many years. Thats whats bringing the folks in these days.

However, there is a cracking grass roots base that is thriving due to this revival, which covers all aspects of folk. That is whats good about it.

There is a thriving younger generation of folk performers in this country who are pulling the younger generation into the scene. Things have moved on, and its time us older grumpy old folkies gave way to their hopes and desires, otherwise folk music as was, will die like the dodo.

Here is to the brilliant younger generation of young musicians who are working so hard and with such vigour and enthusiasm to keep folk on the scene, together with the well established acts that people enjoy seeing.

I am not out to offend anybody, I am trying to give my honest opinion of how I see it. At 63 I could be moaning and groaning about the scene, but IMHO it is very healthy and will stay that way.

Do your thing and enjoy. Stop knocking the shows and awards. Leave them to people who are doing their best to bring folk the way they see it best. The two should work hand in hand.

Why do I run a Folk Concert Venue? becuase I don't want folk to die. Not everybody agrees with my selection of acts that I put on, or like my approach, and that is understandable. However I do it with passion and a belief that what I do is for the good of folk music, just like the MH, Folkwaves shows.

If people see all the hard working folkies enjoying and showing an enthusiasm for folk music, it rubs off.

There is room for everybody. If you don't like what is happening, go and do it yourself in your own way.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 05:27 AM

It's been a good quarter of a century since Frances line took on board any of my ideas and (strange to relate {not!])the Smoothies have never sought my views) so what do I know?

However, to add to the handful of OK things BBC4 has transmitted, there's also C5. Their series was rather grossly sleb-led and didn't interest me greatly, but it wasn't exactly aimed at me, was it, but at potential newcomers. As Tom remarks, the ratings need to be examined but if they stand up, the door's open for more and better. Though I can't really see Son Of Hold Down A Chord getting made, though there was an absolutely fantastic programme about the Handanger fiddle some time ago.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Captain Jack Sparrow
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 05:30 AM

I keep reading this as "A Rockery". I'd sooner have a shrubbery myself, like in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Cuttlefish… eh… let us not, dear friends, forget our dear friends the cuttlefish… bind them up together and they'll devour themselves without a single thought… Human nature, in'it? Ooor… rather fish nature… So yes… we could hold up here well-provisioned and well-armed… and half of us would be dead within the month! Which seems grim to me no matter how you slice it! Or as my colleague so naively suggested, we can release Calypso, and God-willing, she will show us mercy… I rather doubt it. Can we just ignore that she is a woman scorned, the fury the likes of which Hell hath no? We cannot. And so, we are left with but one option. I agree with, and I cannot believe the words that are coming out of me mouth…

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 05:33 AM

Erratum:

Don't quite know how the Handingsfele became a Handanger. It's a "Hardanger".

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:02 AM

I think it's time you started cutting back on those tablest, Cap'n Sparrow!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Stu
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:34 AM

"The best networking opportunity by FAR is the awards night. Wine, laughter, suits aplenty including the DG and Arts ministers, with ears softened by alcohol, a small army of attractive (?) folk enthusiasts, all sorts of slebs coming out of the woodwork as closet folkies, and above all brilliant performances by some of our most talented artists."

Despite this though, it's just another awards ceremony. People in London clapping themselves on the back, drinking posh jollop and congratulating themselves on the fact they're hobnobbing with celebs. Which is fine, and raises the profile of the music (all of which I agree with utterly) etc . . . but is totally inauthentic. I'm not belittling the artists in the slightest - these are people I admire and I spend my hard-earned on their CD's and gigs, and I enjoy the awards as a show (and some of the performances have been memorable) but I'd rather watch Ceird an Cheiol and see the instruments involved, the people playing them and why they are important.

Show the music in it's natural environment, pubs, house etc. Follow the lead of The Transatlantic Sessions and show our musicians playing together and exchanging ideas in an less formal setting - along with artists from all over the Isles. Show pub sessions and folk club performances (the good thing about folk music is away from the rarefied atmosphere of London most of the musicians are in touch with the grass roots, and world class players are as frequent session players as the rest of us).

Explain why the music matters, and the people will embrace it as their own again. Ditch the Americana etc - let's see Kirkpatrick playing for his side at the weekend, McGoldrick in a Manchester pub setting the place alight or any one of the thousands of excellent singers, dancers or players doing their thing for the sheer pleasure of it.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: NormanD
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:40 AM

Just ploughed through this lengthy thread and found no mention of the category award of "Lifetime Achievement". This year, the joint winners were both North American, Judy Collins and James Taylor.

The presence of one of them (Judy Collins) coincided with her presence on some of the BBC's "Folk America" series, and a showcase concert, televised this week. The presence of James Taylor coincided with his near-continual presence on BBC Radio2 daytime playlists.

How were they nominated / chosen? Was the Award given for their significant and enduring influence on UK folk music (which is, at best, arguable).

Could we have some comment on this, preferably without resorting to any nationalism?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:47 AM

Err, I agree with all of that, Jack

You're telling us 'What.' But I think we all already know that.

It's the 'How' that's the challenge.

If I stood in front of a commissioning editor and read your post I'd be politely patronised and posted through the portal.

They hold the purse strings and the key to the transmitter shed, and it's staggeringly difficult to get programmes of any kind through the system. I have more rejection letters from TV stations than I have from record companies and book publishers put together. Trust me on this one.

We have to build bridges, drive wedges, kiss frogs - but above all show a navigable road between were UK broadcasting is today and where we'd like it to be - or they just wont understand.

They don't do seismic, only incremental - watching those audience figures like a hedgehog in the headlights.

It's a drip drip process - one that the existing incumbents, with their regular friendly contact with beeb minders, are in the best place to pursue - Massively supported by the unique networking and showcasing event that is the awards.

If you want to get there you have to start from here. Not somewhere else.

Tom

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:49 AM

"We'd be barking to do anything other than give it our wholehearted support."

Another nail-on-head moment from Mr Bliss. And a smashing post from Les the Villan. I think we are almost heading to a consensus that these awards are good for the music...

Meanwhile, shooting ourselves grumpily in the foot because we don't like the colour of our shoes will do nothing to help.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:59 AM

NormanD, this has already been addressed elsewhere.

The Lifetime awards are allocated by the committee, not voted by the panel. Their agenda is to recognise someone deserving, who will be recognised by the general public - because without that recognition the media won't show up, or report, and not many will tune in or read, and the whole exercise will have been a damp squib in a dark silo.

There are very few UK acts who are well known outside the folk world, but lots of US ones. So, as the national element is defined as 'awards voted by people who live in Britain,' and so may and does include voted winners from beyond these shores, there is no problem awarding awards to well-known, and of course also well-deserving US artists.

Hope that clears it up for you

Tom

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Stu
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 07:26 AM

"You're telling us 'What.' But I think we all already know that.

It's the 'How' that's the challenge.

If I stood in front of a commissioning editor and read your post I'd be politely patronised and posted through the portal."

Well my 'How' was show the music 'in the raw' as it were. Link the professional artists with the people out there doing it and show the regional differences, how the home nations influence each other etc. Place the awards ceremony itself in a wider context.

But look, I have no idea how you'd go about this (I have pitched to the BBC myself, but motion graphics rather than whole programmes!) so very much trust your opinion, or whether a commissioning editor would even go for it or their reasons for not doing so but there must be a market as other countries have these programmes . . .

. . . or is there? Perhaps there isn't, and all people want to watch is Monkey Tennis and Big Brother. Perhaps one awards show a year is all there is demand for.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 07:38 AM

NormanD - It seems an odd coincidence that the recipients of the Lifetime Achievement Awards were, apart from both being American, a) both already in the country for other reasons, and b) both represented by the same PR company who handle the PR for the Folk Awards. This in a year when they did a "tribute" to the great British guitarist Davey Graham who never received such an Award in the ten years of the event when he was still alive. In a year that they seemed to do rather well by the British folk scene on the nominations and winners in general, those Awards stuck out like a sore thumb, as did the quiet dropping of the "Good Tradition" award - I'm sure we can all think of many organisations etc still well overdue for the latter.

It rather looks like the two Lifetime Achievement Awards were just convenient add-ons to get the MOR media interested, which, to be fair, they did. Pretty meaningless otherwise though, and a bit of an insult to many from here who have had deserving lifetimes but the wrong passports.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:21 AM

Just ploughed through this lengthy thread and found no mention of the category award of "Lifetime Achievement". This year, the joint winners were both North American, Judy Collins and James Taylor.


I think it is explained elsewhere - but I am delighted to spell it out again. Note I do not agree with the policy and the link if it is as you say between the publicity machines is disgraceful. Show me some proof of that and I will take it up with the BBC since it smacks of corruption.

The event, as has been pointed out is an industry bash with invited outsiders. These include Arts and Culture Minister people, others from the entertainment industry etc etc. Including Very Senior BBC people.

The names Tom McConville, Demon Barbers, and Lau may be familiar to you and I. Maybe anyone seeing these artists for the first time may be knocked out when seeing them (as we all know) - but those people above, and whether we like it or not they are influential - will say "Who?" when hearing those names.

So the Folk Awards have a "The Lifetime Achievement Award" which isn't voted for or anything, they are just given so that those with influence recognize that not all folk is performed by unknowns.

I am not agreeing with this necessarily, but just trying to explain how it is.

As for it all being London-based I am sure there is a grain of truth - but all the people I know that went were from North of the Trent.

HTH

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:29 AM

I am not interested in revival musicians careers being furthered,I am more concerned about the state of the revival folk scene[programmes like this do nothing to help ] and also the necessity of people to be aware of the roots of the music.

Like many I am not especially interested of the difference between who or who isn't a revival singer. I want to see folk musicians careeers furthered and in my own limited capabilities I do my best.

The music is important - that's all. People do become aware of the roots if they have anything about them.

Programmes like this do everything to help. Not many disagree with that.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: evansakes
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:35 AM

"This in a year when they did a "tribute" to the great British guitarist Davey Graham"

Why the inverted commas, Folknacious?

Was there anything undignified or innapprpriate in what took place on the night? Maybe my memory's playing tricks but all I can remember is a nice tribute followed by a lovely duet performance of Anji by two of Devey's great friends (Ralph McTell and Bert Jansch)

Incidentally, just for clarification purposes. Previous "lifetime achievement" winners include John Martyn, Danny Thompson, Dave Swarbrick, Ralph McTell, Richard Thompson, Bert Jansch and Fairport Convention. Plus some Irish artists like Paul Brady, Christy Moore and The Chieftains.

Just happened to be a couple of Americans this year. C'est la vie.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:11 AM

Ref the Davey tribute (inverted commas to indicate a quote, no other sub-plot). It was perfectly good on the night and appropriate in the circumstances - but they should have given Davey a LAA while he was still alive. His records from 40 years back were at least as influential as those of the two so-honoured this year, neither of whom have really added to their significantly important catalogue since then, any more than Davey did.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Phil Beer
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:54 AM

Many of us have, in the past, suggested that a lifetime award for Davey would be entirely appropriate. Its a real shame they never got to it. Almost every solo show I do contains a song learnt from 'Folk Blues and Beyond'. Almost every night, someone sidles up to express the fact that they got into this music down the same avenue. Both Ralph and Bert will say more or less the same thing. One of the major problems of having a big 'Hit' song like 'Streets' is that it defines an artiste in time for most people. If you actually examine the subsequent and consistent output of Ralphs, you will find maybe as many as 20 vastly superior songs and 100 pretty damn good ones. Thats the problem with 'Hits'.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 08:49 AM

Smooth Ops pièce de résistance (so far) has been giving Steve Earle a Lifetime Achievement at the age of 49 in 2004. Not that young Mr Earle is not a great songwriter, but given all the venerable UK folkies without the trophy it sticks out like a sore thumb. Other North Americans given the accolade have been Joan Baez, Tom Paxton and Rambling Jack Elliot (and boy did he ramble that night), after slightly longer active careers.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 09:01 AM

I believe Steve Earle & Joan Baez share the same PR company as the others mentioned previously.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 12:16 PM

I have been on the panel of those who voted for the Folk Awards in the past. One of the things you get is a list of albums which is 'for guidance only' and you are perfectly entitled to vote for something else if you want. So it was a bit of a surprise a couple of years ago when a second list appeared in the post because they had 'missed off' someone's album. (there were still a number of equally worthy albums which they hadn't seen fit to add).
I suggested that this was clearly not in the spirit of 'for guidance only'. (my quotes)
I have not been asked to vote since then.

If people don't think it affects them they should consider
a) what proportion of a festival budget a Radio 2 Folk Awards winner gets.
b) How this compares with what they got prior to winning
c) how much more they contribute to the average festival beyond their headline concert.
d) how this compares with the payment to, and the input made by a morris team booked at the same festival.
Of course it affects us all.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 07:20 PM

We've seen this before. Art Linkletter's son was MC for the "Hootenany" show on our TV
in the Sixties. It was a whitewash and a mockery of sorts. In fact, it was a "mighty wind".
Some very talented artists did appear on that show. They were not shown up well.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 07:36 PM

"Hootenanny" has recently been re-issued on DVD-R. While it is true that it leaned to the commercial side, the artists DID show up very well - and as you note, there were some very talented artists. The show did not really "mock" their performances, and Jack Linkletter appears to be very respectful of the artists that did perform - which included people like Doc Watson, Flatt & Scruggs, Ian & Sylvia, the Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem, Josh White Jr, the Greenbriar Boys, Leon Bibb and many others. The Tarriers became the first inter-racial group to appear on network TV.

The boycott hurt the show, and in the end probably hurt "folk" music. While ABC did not want Pete Seeger on the show, Pete apparently tried to stop the boycott because he saw that it COULD have been an important window to bring the music into American homes. Imagine what the show could have been. I'm the first person to protest attempts to block freedom of speech, but sometimes there are greater battles to consider. Of course, no one has a crystal ball.

It seems the same thing with "awards" show. Too many people get hung up on principle and setting defintions that they forget the real reason to have these awards shows. Honoring deserving people is a secondary feature - the first reason for doing this is for self-promotion. Save the competitions for real competitions, it sounds like your BBC Awards is nothing more than a promotional tool.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 04:30 AM

I think I'd better chip in with a quick pre-emptive here.

As Paul probably knows, but has been tactful enough not to mention, the album 'missed off' the Infamous List last year was The Whisper by Tom Bliss.

I may have misunderstood his post, but Paul seems to imply that this suggests the existence of an approved list of 'worthy' artists, to which, in theory, I belonged - but from which I had been omitted in error.

In fact what happened was that The Whisper was released, after a mad scramble (I had terrifying health problems during the production) right at the end if October - JUST in time to be eligible for consideration by last year's panel. But no sooner had it hit the shops than I discovered to my dismay that the list is habitually sent out a week or so early - to give panellists some thinking time before the 31st October deadline. So The Whisper was not on it. I expressed my disappointment to Smoops (this 'black hole' has never been advertised), and to my surprise they very kindly sent out the list again with The Whisper included. Obviously this shouldn't have happened, and it does point up some problems with their system, but they are not necessarily the ones Paul suggests.

I have in fact frequently publicly and privately criticised the Infamous List. It's flawed - or has been in the past (I don't know what happened this year) - in three ways:

1) If the panel are 'experts' they perhaps shouldn't need any 'reminder' list at all.

2) If they do need such a list (and I think they do for the reason claimed), it must, to be in step with the BBC's own rules, be fair - i.e. comprehensive by some understandable, reasonable and universal criteria (I've suggested various ways in which this could be achieved, but Smoops have not responded).

3) Such criteria for inclusion that HAVE been published by Smoops have been inconsistent. The email that accompanies the list has implied that only albums featured on the MH show are eligible, whereas the Website suggests that the list is an attempt to represent all 'Folk' albums released in the qualifying period. This alone in enough to set hares running (oops - did I mention that animal again), and does nothing to reduce suspicion and confusion.

Many of the problems associated with the Awards are caused by wooly and muddled writing in emails, rules and website, which encourage people to grab the wrong end of the stick, and also lead to 'incorrect' decisions by the panellists. Most of the rest of the problems are caused by the maths. Again there are solutions which could overtly give Smoops the powers they need to deliver the necessary show on the night, while being more open, democratic and fair to the folk industry. But as long as the BBC think it ain't broke it won't get fixed.

As for Paul's numbered points - I'm not sure what you're saying here Paul.

Are you suggesting that winning an award doesn't actually make all that much difference to an artist's place in the packing order? If so - you're probably right, but as I explained in February that's not what the awards are about.

Are you suggesting that a award winner might now command a higher fee, and that this might be misplaced if they do not contribute in other ways to the festival? If so, then I'd suggest you are missing the point of headliners. The are booked purely to maximise the gate - and, in the absence of much else that can deliver increased public profile, an award should at least help with that. It's down to the likes of you and I to provide the rest, and we are/were happy to do it.

I would, however, be interested to know why you have not been included in the panel this year. My reading of the situation is that on the whole those who question the process politely and positively are welcomed, not rejected (though I never did get the invite to the show that JL promised me)!

Tom