BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 06:58 PM

"...the jury must have been told they had to find he acted with spite, malice, and/or (words to the effect that)..."

                   That's probably what the jury was told, and that's probably why his chances of appeal look so rosey.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: heric
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:20 PM

Not much money, to be sure, but in Arizona, to award punitive damges, the jury must have been told they had to find he acted with spite, malice, and/or (words to the effect that) "the evil hand ... was guided by an evil mind which either consciously sought to damage them or acted intentionally, knowing that his conduct was likely to cause unjustified, significant damage."

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: heric
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:03 PM

Extremely unlikely that they could have received an award of attorneys fees for assault or infliction of emotional distress, but they were represented by a nonprofit advocacy group, yes? This jury of Arizonians found that the average person in the group suffered $2,967.33 worth of emotional distress, sharing $10,000 each of the 60K intended to punish and deter him from further such conduct. Also unlikely, but his insurance company could pay some or all of this, and his attorneys' fees as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 05:24 PM

The $17K is probably the lawyers' fees.   $10K each for the plaintiffs sounds pretty minimal to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 09:54 AM

I said earlier that it "sounds pretty decent".   I have to retract that, in part.

I think the $60,000 punitive damages was uncalled for. $17,804 sounds plenty to me. And that's assuming that the appeal doesn't knock out the two counts on which he lost.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 09:00 AM

By ARTHUR H. ROTSTEIN
Associated Press

TUCSON, Ariz. — A federal jury found Tuesday that a southern Arizona rancher didn't violate the civil rights of a group of illegal immigrants who said he detained them at gunpoint in 2004.

The eight-member civil jury also found Roger Barnett wasn't liable on claims of battery and false imprisonment.

But the jury did find him liable on four claims of assault and four claims of infliction of emotional distress and ordered Barnett to pay $77,804 in damages — $60,000 of which were punitive.

Barnett declined to comment afterward, but one of his attorneys, David Hardy, said the plaintiffs lost on the bulk of their claims and that Barnett has a good basis for appeal on the two counts on which he lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 08:42 AM

Hopefully, he'll appeal!

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:51 PM

Actually, it sounds pretty decent. The $34mil was laughable under the circumstances of what happened.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:36 PM

It does when you're being sued for 34Mil...that's about .2%. Please notice the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:29 PM

$77,804 doesn't sound like a victory to me

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:08 PM

I think the decision was basically a victory for Barnett, with a token verdict as a sop to international relations. Oh well!

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:47 PM

In a mixed decision, Mr. Barnett was found innocent today of violating the migrants' civil rights and of false imprisonment but guilty of assault and causing emotional distress. [Note: it was actually a civil suit, so "innocent" and "guilty" are technically in error]. He was ordered to pay $77,804 in damages — $60,000 of which were punitive. An appeal is likely. More here.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 05:49 PM

Ron - My best guess is, people come here because, as bad as our economy is, their economy is a whole lot worse.

                      By educating, I really meant educate the women who live in the poor cultures. I'm no expert, but anthropologists I've heard on news outlets seem to think this is a very important first step. In some Muslim countries, however, the folks in power will not even allow girls to go to school. I can see that I didn't express myself very well, but that's what I was trying to get at.

                      As far as that woman with 14 children--8 of them just born--I think she and her doctor have just created a whole lot of misery. Hopefully other folks won't try that at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:31 PM

I think we are communicating just fine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said that in order to stop population growth in other countries, we need to educate. Obviously we do not do a very good job of educating our own since we celebrate these large families with television series and media exposure. That is not the education we want to give these people.

You also indicated that there are cultural differences, and this country has a long history of problems in learning to respect the culture of others.

Come to think of it, why would anyone want to come here??????

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:24 PM

Ron - It doesn't seem to me like we're communicating too well, but I would agree that conservatives are closed minded, and I wouldn't look to them for guidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:17 PM

"Major stumbling blocks are mostly political--cultural traditions, religious beliefs, and etc"

You are right there. The damn convervatives are so closed minded that we would never be able to tolerate anyone who is different from so-called "norms". We are screwed up.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:13 PM

"But if you're going to put out a fire you have to contain it first. The best way to contain it is to prevent these same ideas from being spread to places that for the most part have moved beyond them"

So did you read the story about the woman giving birth to octuplets? Do you think that a day laborer from Mexico put that idea in her head?   Have you watched the shows on cable about the large families?   Perhaps you are right, bringing these folks into the U.S. will give them really bad ideas. Let's not ruin their education by screwing it up with our ideas!

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:00 PM

Well, I would certainly agree with that, Sinsull.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM

Before we do that in foreign countries we need to do it in our own inner cities. There are schools in Philadelphis that have not been renovated since the 30s and the quality of education follows suit.
M

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 12:28 PM

Well, Ron, the best way to really solve the problem is to provide education to women in poor countries. Along with that, it would make sense to provide family planning programs and facilities to the people in those countries as well.

            Major stumbling blocks are mostly political--cultural traditions, religious beliefs, and etc.

            But if you're going to put out a fire you have to contain it first. The best way to contain it is to prevent these same ideas from being spread to places that for the most part have moved beyond them--i.e. stop runaway migration.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 11:36 AM

I'm not denying that it is a big issue in the environmental community.   Your idea does not solve the problem, nor does it even address it - it simply avoids dealing with it head on.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 11:13 AM

Sorry, Ron, but this problem is a really big issue in the environmental community too.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 10:42 AM

Sorry Rigin- your isolationist ideas will not solve the problem. I like to think that our country remains a beacon of hope for others, just like your ancestors found.   We have room, we can help. This problem is only an issue on conservative radio.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 10:36 AM

"What happened to them three Quackers?"
             "Oh, they're hangin' around here somewhere."

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:30 AM

When the Pilgrims landed at what is now Provincetown, one of the first things they did was to raid the native's store of corn. Tha5tw as before they hanged those three Quakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 10:56 AM

"'Rigin - I agree, the population growth is too much. That is a different issue from so-called "illegal" aliens.'"

             I don't see how one can treat it as a different issue. As I've posted before, it could be treated as a different issue if the population decreased in the country from which the immigrant left. But that is not the case. Some underdeveloped countried have simply turn into incubation centers from which most immigrants come.
             That being the case, populations in industrialized countries must insulate themselves from runaway immigration until some solution can be found for the exploding population growths in other parts of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 11:20 PM

pdq ....... if they were kidnapped by anglos, would that have made it right? I can tell you this. As I mentioned above, I am not speaking from ad hominem info. I worked organizing among a 95% hispanic population who worked in the slaughter industry. Tough work. I ate in their homes, played with their kids, talked with them about their hopes and dreams. It is fair to say that I have been in several thousand homes over the years. What I saw, primarily, were hard working folks, not interested in the drug trade, with beautiful babies that they were trying, just like you, to give a better life to. Certainly I saw the underbelly as well. But it was a very small percentage. These folks just want a piece of the dream. If it was available where they came from, they would have stayed there.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:17 PM

i thought et and his friends had landed

LMAO, thanks for the laugh Goatfell! I hadn't checked into this thread because I thought the title was about Martians, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:04 PM

"You said "we're ALL here illegal." "

Yep. You are no different from the folks who snuck across the border.

The history you learned in grade school only gave you part of the story.

Rigin - I agree, the population growth is too much. That is a different issue from so-called "illegal" aliens.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:04 PM

pdq, according to multiple cites (or sites...google "phoenix kidnapping"), most of these are of other individuals involved in the drug trade - or their families. Not a good thing, certainly, but not entirely innocent victims, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:00 PM

Ron Olesko:

"Ron, why would you say a thing like
Frankly, we were all here "illegal"? "

Check your invitation

Ron, I was born here, of legal parentage, who sprang of people born here of legal parentage, (who etc. X3), under the laws of the United States. Descended from legal immigrants. I'm legal. I don't need an invitation. Nor did my forebears.   

You said "we're ALL here illegal."

Riginslinger said,

Well, Dave, maybe Kennewick Man was the only legal citizen. Everyone we are aware of showed up after him.

Kennewick man (if indeed the first, and I'll assume that to be true arguendo) did not establish a legal system which made all subsequent comers "illegals". If it did, it would make all subsequent Indian "immigrants" illegals too.

The first "European" explorers and attempted immigrants we can verify, Leif Ericsson and company (seven vessels, if I recall correctly), coming from Greenland on a scouting/colonization mission in about the year 1000, were attacked by a group they referred to as "the Skraelings", and withdrew to the Greenland colony, whence they had come. From the fact of the attack we can assume they were unwelcome in the Markland/Vinland area, but "illegal"? We know of no civil society or law of the Skraelings that made Ericsson's party "illegal". It was merely a territorial skirmish between two groups.

The American Indians did not have the concept of an overarching state that established "ownership" of the continent or even those areas they frequented. Indeed, even the concept of exclusive ownership of land was foreign to them. This is part of why the fabled "purchase" of Manhattan for--what was it, $26 worth of trinkets?--is ridiculous.    In that case, the "sellers" didn't even live and hunt there regularly, but were just passing through, and it was the Dutch who got swindled, because they purportedly were sold land by "non-owners". But even then, the concept of exclusive ownership of lands was foreign to Indian culture.

A number of European settlements on the Eastern Seaboard of what is now the US were subsequently made without friction--at least initially--with the neighboring Indians. Indeed, in several if not many cases they were welcomed. So they were not "illegal immigrants" even if you want to see the neighboring Indian tribes as owners or the sovereign power of the area.

Yes, later there were conflicts, forced and/or fraudulent treaties with the Indians, etc., many if not most later broken on the white side, but wrong as those were they fall into a different category than "illegal immigration". If you want to say that a great deal of the US territory was stolen or extorted from the Indians, I'll agree with you. If you want to point out that there were incidents which today would be considered ethnic cleansing, or biological warfare, or various other war crimes, I'll agree with you.   

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:34 PM

Ron - Of course we should all try to help other people, and I think it's disgusting the way the poorest immigrants are treated in the US.
                      But what I meant by my comment was this: some time after Teddy Roosevelt, people began to look around and discovered disappearing forests, dead spots in the oceans, endangered plants and wildlife, and they began to realize, too, that there was a limit to earths resources. Biological scientists and others recognized that more people put greater demands on resources.

                      Your right that the whole world is crowded, but a growing number of us are realizing that it doesn't have to be that way. Western Europe and North America had pretty much stopped their march to greater and greater populations, before migrants from other places began to arrive at those places which still provided a little breathing space.

                      The scenario would be different if the population went down each time an immigrant left his country of origin, but that isn't the way it works. People are moving from places that are already overpopulated to places that are not quite yet overpopulated.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: pdq
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:26 PM

Last year, Phoenix had at least 370 kidnappings.

These are violent acts were the victims are held for ransom and threatened with death.

This is common in Mexico City, the kidnapping capitol of the world.

The perps are Mexican-born gangsters with ties to Mexican organized crime.

No, these thugs do not kidnap farmworkers. They kidnap Americans who look like they can pay big bucks.

Of course, this is not a problem in Maine so it does not exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:19 PM

"the concept of being a legal or an illegal immigrant didn't really get to be an issue until we looked around and discovered there were too many people"

Who said there were too many people?

The whole world is crowded, but we always can make room to help each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: kendall
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 07:41 PM

In spite of what so many conservatives think, most people want to work. But, most people don't want to work for scut wages while their Boss Hogg gets filthy rich on their backs.

Migrant workers work their asses off for whatever the boss wants to pay and they have no right to collective bargaining.

Everyone needs a dog to kick.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:08 PM

Once again, the concept of being a legal or an illegal immigrant didn't really get to be an issue until we looked around and discovered there were too many people.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:12 PM

"Ron, why would you say a thing like
Frankly, we were all here "illegal"? "

Check your invitation

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:02 PM

Plus ça change ....


BRACERO
   - Phil Ochs, 1963/4?

Wade into the river
Through the rippling shallow watter
Steal accross the thirsty border, Bracero
Come bring your hungry bodies
To the golden fields of plenty
From a peso to a penny, Bracero

CHORUS:
Oh, welcome to California
Where the friendly farmers
Will take care of you

Come labor for your mother
For your father and your brother
For your sisters and your lover, Bracero
Come pick the fruits of yellow
Break the flowers from the berries
Purple grapes will fill your bellies, racero

CH

And the sun will bite your body
As the dust will draw you thristy
While your muscles beg for mercy, Bracero
In the shade of your sombrero
Drop your sweat upon the soil
Like the fruit your youth can spoil, Bracero

CH

When the weary night embraces
Sleep in shacks that could be cages
They will take it from your wages, Bracero
Come sing about tomorrow
With a jingle of the dollars
And forget your crooked collar, Bracero

CH

And the local men are lazy
And they make too much of trouble
Besides we'd have to pay them double, Bracero
Ah, but if you feel you're fallin'
If you find the pace is killing
There are others who are willing, Bracero

Oh, welcome to California
Where the friendly farmers
Will take care of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM

Well, Dave, maybe Kennewick Man was the only legal citizen. Everyone we are aware of showed up after him.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:48 PM

Ron, why would you say a thing like
Frankly, we were all here "illegal"?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:27 PM

Dave - why on earth would there be a difference "in part" of "with the help of" or "contributed by"?   That sounds like the argument from those who deny the Holocaust by claiming there weren't 6 million killed.

Frankly, we were all here "illegal".

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM

Ron Olesko:

Maybe you should re-read the constitution and brush up on American history - this nation was built by illegal immigrants.

"In part", Ron, "In part." "With the help of". "Contributed to by".   Some of the builders were illegal immigrants, but a much larger part were legal.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM

"What he did was clearly illegal, no question about it."

                Does anyone know what the Arizona law is?

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:02 PM

"while the system may give rights to illegal persons, I do not believe that is the moral or ethical choice for the sound functioning of a our country"

Maybe you should re-read the constitution and brush up on American history - this nation was built by illegal immigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM

I think I made it clear a few posts back that I don't know if you are a racist, but the general tone of the anti immigrant crowd is.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:59 PM

"That's the last thing we want to do. There are too many people in the country now."

So why don't you leave?

I'm really tired of all the conservatives who have been destroying this country for the past 50 years with desires to maintain a world that never existed. Their so-called values hide their hatred and fear of the unknown.   Back in the days when the civil rights movement was taking hold, they claimed "states rights" instead of their outright bigotry. Today, they talk about "immigration policy" instead of admitting the real truth.

There is a big movement in the Northeast to legalize Irish illegal aliens, yet at the same time in the same region you get groups of conservative bozos picketing South American day laborers who gather peacefully to look for work.   I've watched cops harrass these people who are doing nothing more than standing on a corner.

The arguement that they come here to have children so they can obtain public housing and programs is simply not true. More conservative lies.   Many states are not allowed to even ask about immigration states, and most others simply require that one person be of legal status. A child born in this country does not qualify for legal status.    Also, a recent article and story that also appeared on Fox News showed that only a small portion of illegal immigrants are found living in public housing.

Conservative talk shows continue to smear lies and hatred.   They fail to mention that these people buy and spend in our country and they would pay their fair share of taxes and dues if given a chance.

The cretin in Arizona who held these people at gunpoint deserves to be thrown in jail and pay for his assault. What he did was clearly illegal, no question about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: heric
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:55 PM

Fine, I'm a racist. Let's move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: heric
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:55 PM

. . . meant to imply that an influx of people who are NOT lazy is a good thing, fine by me. (In response to Riginslinger's assertion that there are too many people in the US.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:53 PM

I did. You introduced it into a thread and discussion of illegal aliens. The implication is clear. Think before you post, about the context of the discussion and you won't have these problems. Or don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Man being sued; stops Illegal Aliens
From: heric
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:51 PM

>>comments like, "too many lazy people anyhow" is one of racism.<<

I don't know how to make this clear to you. That comment was not directed at legal or illegal immigrants of any kind, race, or other classification. It was just a throwaway line about the state of the nation, meant to imply that an influx of people who are NOT lazy is a good thing, fine by me.

Would you please check it again?