Pronunciation--O Carolan

Subject: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: bubblyrat
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:19 AM

Over the years, I have heard the first name of Toirdhealbhach O Cearbhallain , usually written as Turlough, pronounced as Tur- LOW, Tur-LUFF,and Tur-LOUGH (as in "Loch").What,in fact,is the correct way to say it for non Erse- speakers ??

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:24 AM

Depends on which bit of the Erse-speaking world you're in! The most common/standard is roughly tur - luck with the stress on the first syllable and the second syllable more guttural than most English speakers would offer!

Regards

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: bubblyrat
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:38 AM

Thanks,Martin. Oddly enough,that is quite a Dutch way of saying it,with the emphasis on the first syllable,and the hardness of the second.I must practice !!

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:55 AM

If you speak Dutch, You'll have no problems with that final sound!

Tot siens!

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: bubblyrat
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:11 AM

Ja, Ik kan beetje Nederlands praaten en verstaan ! En ook "The Villan", George Papagevris,en zijn vrouw Vanessa ("Nessie") !!Dat is drie andere Mudkatteneers !!

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:16 AM

Hey, if in doubt, you could always just refer to him as T C

Giving my age away again! :-)

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:50 AM

Next question. How do you pronounce "Erse?" :-)

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: Zen
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:56 AM

Erse... not a preferred term these days.

Zen

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:56 AM

Like "Arse", but with an "E".

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: meself
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM

Now that you've got the pronunciation straightened out, if you really want to build up your Celtic cred, you will have to drop the "O" on O'Carolan. Big discussion about it on thesession.org awhile back, and that was the conclusion.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 12:48 PM

Erse is archaic at this stage, alright. OED glosses it as an early Scots (sic) form of Irish.

Regards

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM

Incidentally....

Now that you've got the pronunciation straightened out, if you really want to build up your Celtic cred, you will have to drop the "O" on O'Carolan. Big discussion about it on thesession.org awhile back, and that was the conclusion.

Me? I'd settle for "Irish cred"! Were they talking about the English or Irish version of the name? A quick look at the site didn't turn it up - you might post a link, please?

Regards

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: bubblyrat
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 01:30 PM

When I was at school,in the 1950s,we were told that the Celtic language spoken by the populace of Ireland was called "Erse" .But----obviously these twats / morons/ gits didn't know what they were talking about . Sorry I even mentioned it,really.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 01:52 PM

Don't worry about it - it's not much worse than confusing Holland with The Netherlands, really! (And we won't mention Fries...)

Regards

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 01:57 PM

Not to worry, Bubbly ;-)

Re the name issue: Donal O'Sullivan - still THE Carolan scholar - writes in his definitive biography Carolan: The Life, Times and Music of an Irish Harper

His full name in Irish is Toirdhealbhach Ó Cearbhalláin, though one often meets with minor variations in the spelling of both forename and surname. The forename is generally rendered in English as Turlough or Terence. When Gaelic names of this type are written in full, it is proper to prefix the Ó to the surname. When, however, the surname is used singly, the only satisfactory method is to follow the form used by the owner of the name and by his friends. Carolan twice brings his own name into his poems - in his song for Fallon and his song for John Stafford, and in both cases he employs the form Cearbhallán not Ó Cearbhalláin. MacCabe, his most intimate friend, twice mentions his name in his elegy and uses the same form. Charles O'Connor, also a very close friend, refers to him in his diary, written in Irish, as Cearbhallán and in his letters to Walker, written in English, as Carolan, not O'Carolan. It is therefore certain that Carolan was known to himself and his friends as Cearbhallán or, in English, Carolan.

Martin - or someone - am I right in vaguely remembering that it's normal practice when you use both surname and forename you use the patronymic Ó or O' but when you give only the surname, you drop it? So it should be either Turlough O'Carolan or simply Carolan - ? Anyway, the man himself seems to have settled the debate.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 02:01 PM

On a much more mundane level, it is very common, in my experience, to hear Irish people speak of "Turolough O'Carolan" but to refer to something as "a Carolan tune"! Go figure!

Regards

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:01 PM

Mind you - that ties in with Bonnie's comment, of course.

Regards

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:32 PM

See also thread  Carolan or O'Carolan??

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:43 PM

Gosh, I'd forgotten about that thread... a real trip down memory lane - coulda saved myself some typing... Cheers, Malcolm

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: meself
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:44 PM

Martin - I don't know if I'll have any more luck than you had in finding that thread on thesession now; if I do, I'll certainly add a link. But in looking at this thread and the other Mudcat one on the subject, I think the discussion at thesession pretty much covers the same ground (without the unpleasantness).

(Btw, I am aware that the term 'Celtic' has fallen into some disfavour, particularly on your side of the ocean - which is partly why I chose to use it. Just to rattle a chain or two .... )

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:53 PM

Whoever posted at TheSession will only have the same information from the same source, i.e. Dr. O'Sullivan's book, whether it's been quoted from directly or cribbed (usually uncredited) by some website or other.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:59 AM

Yeah, Bonnie, that's what I figured also, when I saw your quote. Like you, I had forgotten we'd chased it around the block ourselves in that old thread.

Regards

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: GUEST,An Niallach Óg
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:44 AM

Toirdhealbhach Ó Cearbhalláin in Donegal would be pronounced using English phonetics Tore-yul-wah* O-Cyare-wul-line**

*first syllable "tore" as in 'she tore her dress'; last syllable a half voiced gutteral H sound like, the Castillian J

**first syllable contains glide vowel pronounced like the word care but with a quick y sound before the 'are', last syllable like the "line" in the name Caroline, which sounds a lot like his surname.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM

Oh caroline
My heart shined when you came in
Oh caroline
Life means more since you came in

Cheap Trick

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 09:54 AM

All pronunciations can be perfected using the well known Teach Yourself book; "Brush up your Erse"!!

Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan
From: bubblyrat
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 06:25 PM

What next ?? Toothbrushes and towels marked "Is" and "Erse" ?? And now I am even more confused,as it seems that Des O'Connor,if not using his first name,would just be "Connor".....is that correct ??
And if your name is Connor Connor O'Connor....it doesn't bear thinking about.