BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?

Subject: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 12:50 PM

Quick's the word and sharp's the action - join Mike Newdow of Let's Get God Out Of The Pledge fame in Newdow v. Roberts this week...

Info on suit here

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 12:59 PM

Good idea!

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 01:02 PM

Good luck. I hope it works - but I'll be suprised if it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 01:35 PM

Well, if everybody who agrees, joins, who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:07 PM

As a nonbeliever, I only have three words to say: "Get over it!"

It was Mr. Obama's innauguration, not Mr. Newdow's. Had Mr. Obama been a nonbeliever instead of a Christian, I'm sure Chief Justice Roberts would have omitted all religious references if asked to do so. I interpret the inclusion of "So help me, God" in the oath Mr. Obama took to be a statement of his own personal belief, not a statement of governmental policy.

There's a point at which one person's desire to be free from religion can infringe upon another person's freedom of speech. When that happens, I'm always on the side of free speech. If someone's exercise of free speech happens to include what I consider a bunch of superstitious mumbo-jumbo, I'm quite capable of ignoring it.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:11 PM

Hear, hear!!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:21 PM

Impeach Obama!....He swore to God!....Bad Obama!

Michael Newdow is a selfish Noodge. It's good the President isn't Muslim, else Mr. N. might be "carrying 'is 'ead underneath
'is harm."

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM

"Want to get God out of US Inauguration?"

Impossible. You cannot remove the infinite from any one particular part of itself as it is omnipresent by definition.

You can pretend to do it, though...by forcing other people not to utter certain words in a ceremony. ;-) So if you want to try that, go right ahead, but I think you will find that it's unconstitutional to deny others free speech in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:27 PM

Much ado about nothing. I'm with bee-dubya-ell and vote for free speed. The addition of religion is voluntary, not mandatory.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:27 PM

Here's an internet rumor so bad it's laughable. It seems the first swearing-in was screwedup on purpose so that the real Muslem Iman could do it later. Check out the bad photoshopped picture at the bottom.

Truth or Fiction.com

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:34 PM

Boy, the sheer gall of some people is enough to take your breath away... (I'm referring to the photoshopped hoax of the Imam lurking behind Obama as he takes the 2nd oath of office).

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:32 PM

Terrible idea. The next thing you know, some of you will be clamoring to take "In God We Trust" off our currency!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:45 PM

*wry grin*...Can you imagine how devastating that would be, Doug? To have to buy a roll of toilet paper with a dollar bill that was not extolling the supremacy of some Supreme being?

The presidential oath IS voluntary...the guy can say that HE holds his religious views to be his most serious belief, and that HE swears by them to do his duties faithfully.

The stuff printed on money says that we, as a country, have such beliefs...and we clearly do NOT...nor are we required to by the Constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM

Oh, heck, Doug...the very same few individuals who are so emotionally hung up on this issue as to keep on beating their dead hobby horse here on a regular basis already have complained about that too on various threads. ;-) You must've missed it when they did.

I think a far worthier cause would be to get that damned Road Runner off TV once and for all. I'm absolutely sick of him beating the poor Coyote all the time in a completely unfair and unrealistic fashion. It's awful. It's offensive. It's sadistic. He should be banned from the airwaves. Better yet, he should get caught by the Coyote, cooked, and eaten.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:52 PM

Lawsuits aren't some sort of survey (most of which have no bearing on anything anyway). If the suit isn't legally valid it doesn't matter if you have 100K people signing on. If the people who sign on don't have standing -- and simply wanting God removed from the Oath of Office doesn't do it -- your "support" is invalid.

Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:52 PM

Judge Roberts made such a big deal out of it with his tone, inflection, accent and delivery...he screwed the whole oath up.

Whatever brownie points he thought he was getting from the 'religulous', he failed.


Speaking of Religulous the movie by Bill Mahre, I can not buy it in any stores in my community. Not in Target, Best Buy, Wall Mart, K Mart etc.

. I'll have to try Blockbuster or Red Box. Buying the thing on Amazon is a last resort.

The religious right cultural revolution is far from over.
Just like China's cultural revolution, it does no good for anybody or the economy at large.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 04:01 PM

Well, my MiL is 'probably' one of those peole who WILL believe the photoshopped pic. Geeze.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 04:07 PM

Here's an idea for the money, Bill, that would satisfy everyone's pet peeves...

Have the mint print and mint bills and coins of TWO separate varieties...godly and atheist. ;-) A godly coin or bill would be the same as the ones you have now: "In God We Trust"

An atheist coin or bill would have instead on it: "There is no God"

Then print and mint both varieties in equal amounts.

People who are offended by either variety could refuse to accept it, but could insist on the other. Those who had some of the unacceptable variety could go to the bank and get it exchanged for an equal amount of the other money.

And those of us who basically don't give a damn could freely use both types and not worry about it! ;-) I'd be in that third category, and I bet I'd have a lot of company there.

No, really, the Road Runner thing is soooo much more important! Get a grip, people...

p.s. I have just carefully studied a Canadian 20 dollar bill here. There's not a word about God on it anywhere, but it does have this slogan, a quote from Gabrielle Roy: "Could we ever know each other in the slightest without the arts?" The slogan is next to some Native American sculpture.

How about that, eh? ;-) Want to move to Canada now?

Next I studied our Canadian coins. The word God doesn't show up there either.......but wait....an engraving of Queen Elizabeth is on the back of each coin...and...and...around the rim it says "D. G. Regina"

UH-OH!!!!!!!!!!! That is short form for a phrase in Latin that means "Queen by the grace of God"...

And it is at this point that BillD, Riginslinger, Mrrzy, and Wesley and their ilk run screaming from the room.

Just when you thought it was SAFE to visit Canada...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 04:41 PM

If you'll notice Little Hawk they already HAVE taken Speedy Gonzales and Peppy LaPew off the air. I'm sure the Road Runner cartoons will be next.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 05:44 PM

DougR, you said,

Terrible idea. The next thing you know, some of you will be clamoring to take "In God We Trust" off our currency!

What's this "first thing you know" stuff? I've been pushing for that for at least forty years!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 05:48 PM

Rapaire said;

and simply wanting God removed from the Oath of Office doesn't do it

You can't remove God from the oath of office, because it's not there in the first place. Those four words are extraneous to what is prescribed by the Constitution.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 05:59 PM

I don't care much about Speedy Gonzales one way or the other, Wesley, but I miss Pepe Le Pew terribly! Did they decide the characters were offensive to Hispanics and French people?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:18 PM

Maybe the folks who started this thread should go directly to the source. Put together a public petition to God, post it in public places everywhere, and directly ASK "him" to get out of the US inauguration.

If nothing changes after that, you will know that God has refused your request. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:21 PM

"Want to get God out of US Inauguration?"

Did He show up?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 07:19 PM

Well, yeah. I know it's not in there. The Constitution says you can "swear (or affirm)". Swearing is usually done by a religious creature, affirming says that you'll do it the same sort of way but leaves religion out.

When I was sworn into the Army I didn't have to involve God. I was sworn in to testify in Court and it didn't involve God. This makes me think that God isn't in the Courts or the Army, but in either case there were penalties for not keeping my given word.

And really, that's all we have: a promise to do you best and to keep your word.

Heck, I'd do it with a handshake or just because it's the right thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 08:59 PM

"...get God out...."

Dream on. In 4 years, when President Obama is inaugurated for his second term, nothing will have changed in this regard.   Nor should it. It's up to Obama.

But please, if you're going to make your push on this, make it now. Don't wait with the incredibly brilliant campaign along these lines until the next election (even the one in 2010). Since the only thing you will do with this wonderful idea is to strengthen the ""Religious Right". Obviously the stellar intellects behind this classic maneuver have learned nothing from 2004--when throwing red meat like this to the fundamentalists turned them out in droves--and very likely made the difference in a very close election--putting Bush in again.

Obama will not thank you for this pointless distraction from his agenda--but Sarah and Huckabee will.

Of course the big picture never enters the minds of true believers--whether fundamentalist Christians or fundamentalist atheists.

But thanks for proving my assertion on another thread right--there are in fact unthinking rabid atheists on Mudcat.

There is however one way in which President Obama could make lemonade out of Mr. Newdow's lemons.

If I were President Obama, and Newdow's push started to gain a higher profile,   I'd emphasize everywhere I went that the US was in fact founded on Judeo-Christian principles and that I personally had a strong Christian faith. Supporters of Newdow are a laughably tiny minority in the US--though obviously not on Mudcat.

That way President Obama can pull a Sister Souljah, and reaffirm his moderate credentials. The more moderates, including moderate Republicans, he can get on his side, the more likely he can get a good bit of his agenda through Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:28 AM

I think you just hit the nail on the head, Ron. A rabid atheists' campaign to get "God" taken out of the Oath of Office would simply be handing a very valuable PR gift to the Republican Party and the religious Right. Sarah Palin would be ecstatic.

We agree, by God! Break out the champagne. ;-) Like you say, "the big picture never enters the minds of true believers".

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:19 AM

'..."the big picture never enters the minds of true believers"...'



                         Boy, ain't that the truth!

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:23 AM

"...Judeo-Christian principles."    If he does this he may of course mention the original sin of the US founding---slavery. Though nobody would be advised to burn a copy of the Constitution, which William Lloyd Garrison did--on the 4th of July, I believe.   And of course thanks to the 13th and following Amendments, that would not be necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:43 AM

What makes you think the US Constitution totally outlawed slavery?

Amendment XIII

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM

So, in between the croyants playing their aren't-we-silly-to-want-to-avoid-their-superstitions-being-taken-seriously tape, is anyone joining? Sent it to any organizations?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:13 AM

Something that might help is if you elect an athiest for president. But I can't imagine that happening any time soon. But then again if you told me four years ago that we would have an African-American president I would have thought you were nuts.

If you can find an athiest that has a platform I can agree with I'd vote for him. But I doubt the rest of America would get behind him - or her. We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:25 AM

I think Obama is an antheist, but he'll not be able to come out anytime soon!

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:27 AM

That's interesting. Why do you think he's an athiest?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:48 AM

Yes, Wesley, there may be those who are athier than he. I doubt he's the athiest.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:50 AM

As opposed to an antheist?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM

Does that mean he worships ants?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:47 PM

Well, ants are very hardworking, right? They make a good role model for the industrious.

There are plenty of people who are in truth atheists, although nobody knows they are...I wouldn't be surprised if you have already had some presidents who were atheists. They just didn't say so, that's all.

And whose business is it anyway? A person's beliefs in that respect are strictly his own private business, seems to me. That's the attitude the general public takes toward politics in Canada...Canadians in general don't wish to hear a politician going on and on about either his religious faith...or his lack of same. If a politician here were to do either the one or the other and make a public issue of his faith or his atheism, it would only lose him votes...because most people here would find it inappropriate to bring that sort of stuff into politics AT ALL.

I know of no Canadian politician of any note, present or past, who has either campaigned AS an atheist...or AS a person of faith. They simply don't raise the issue at all, because if they did it would make people uncomfortable and they would lose a lot of votes.

Religion is not something you bring into politics in Canada. You are religious on your own private time if you wish to be, and no one cares. Same goes for militant atheism...you do it on your own private time if you want to, and no one cares. Why? Because it's your own private business, that's why.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:59 PM

Great! What would it take to get politicians to do that in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:07 PM

A Major Miracle!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:09 PM

God knows!   ;-) (if you'll excuse the expression)

I think you would have to somehow remake the psychology of a couple hundred million Americans before you could do that in the USA.

As long as your politicians think that raising divisive religious issues will get them votes, they'll do it. Ours would do it too...if they thought it would get them a lot of votes. But it wouldn't. ;-) Politicians are the same everywhere in that respect. If they think a dirty tactic will get them votes, they'll use it. They will always wave the red flag at the public bull in hopes of getting it to charge in the direction they desire.

Canadian politicians do that too, in their own way, it's just that they don't play the "religion" card when they do it, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM

Hmmm, where did my answer go?

It was, because he grew up without religion, and he's smart.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:06 PM

Mrrzy - I might go along with your first assumption but not the second. Lot's of smart people "have religion". Our banjo player has his doctorate in theology from Harvard. He reads Greek and Latin. AND he can play a 5 string banjo. He can't tell a joke however. He can't even remember them.

Your first assumption doesn't hold water either come to think of it. Lots of people grow up with religion and reject it. Some grow up without it and embrace it later. Your past does not dictate your future. So unless you've had a personal conversation with Obama you're assuming facts not in evidence { to borrow a line from Perry Mason }.

But I'm still hoping we can - someday - separate religion from politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:19 PM

"...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."

No, I don't want God out of the US Inauguration. I don't even want it out of the US Presidential Inauguration.

The Latin root for inauguration is "augury"; soothsaying. It goes deeper yet in that augury comes from reading the entrails of birds (Bald Eagles?) and if that doesn't put the stamp of hocus pocus on the proceedings what is it going to hurt to ask God's help on the whole thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:29 PM

Gee, it looks like when I get to heaven there's not going to be many Mudcatters to argue with. What a disappointment.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:44 PM

Dougr, as Mark Twain said, "It's Heaven for climate, Hell for company!"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 06:07 PM

"...what is it going to hurt to ask God's help on the whole thing?"

The very structure of the question assumes there is a God to be asked for help....that is what is under scrutiny. There are people who are not concerned with DISproving God: they just don't wish other folks assumptions to intrude on their lives.

*I* grew up with religion...as a Methodist. As I learned how to ask questions about truth and belief, it became obvious to me that belief was just that...belief. There's a reason we have a separate word for concepts and ideas that are not proveable, obvious facts. There is also a reason why a modern society should not demand that certain notions and beliefs be required in public ceremonies and rituals.
Obama...or anyone else...can invoke HIS highest principle to declare his sincerity: I don't mind. And if I understand it correctly, Christians believe that God can 'hear' prayer without it being invoked out loud over a PA system. Thus, a moment of silence so that everyone can silently pray, meditate, contemplate...or just wait... ought to be enough.
   I have a Jewish friend who belongs to a non-religious organization, which just happens to have some dedicated Christians leading it. He tries to be out of the room before they begin each meeting with a public prayer "in JESUS name".

I am sure that, if the country were 97% atheist, Christians would at least appreciate being able to attend church, pray quietly, and not be pressured to 'stop' believing.
One-more-time: "Freedom OF religion must necessarily included freedom FROM religion for those who wish it."

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 07:02 PM

Wait a minute! Obama's inauguration doesn't belong to him. put him there.
It's ours. I think Newdow is right. We don't need religion in the inauguration. (Think of the reaction if JFK had had a priest at his.)

Get religion out of the public square. Otherwise, there will be further battles.

Yes Bill D. We don't have to outlaw religion. Just get it out of public offices.

BTW "In god we trust" was put in money comparatively recently by a lobbying minister.
It was not always there.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 07:16 PM

I grew up entirely without religion, Mrrzy. Does that make me smart? ;-)

I developed quite a bit of interest in spiritual matters later on and I think about them all the time...but I still do not belong to any specific religion and I doubt that I ever will. I happen to think that Spirit is non-denominational, and therefore friendly and unprejudiced toward all people quite regardless of their beliefs...but that's just my own personal slant on the matter. It's not a statement of doctrine, in other words.

I have no doctrines, I'm just interested, that's all.

It should neither be required...or not required...for somone to invoke God in a state ceremony. It should be entirely up to them whether or not they do it. In Canada, for instance, you can either "swear" or "affirm" when making an oath. If you swear, then you make mention of God in the oath. If you affirm, then you don't make any mention of God. In either case you are giving your solemn word to adhere to the oath, and you're giving it in whichever way personally suits you.

People who demand that other people conform to their own chosen preference in such matters are trespassing on other people's freedom of will and their freedom of speech.

You can't make other people be like you. And a good thing.

Freedom of religion in a society means two things to me:

1. You are free to openly practice the religion of your choice.
2. You are free to openly subscribe to no religion at all...in other words, to be an atheist or an agnostic.

People who want to ban other people's demonstrations of their religious faith in public are just as intrusive and intolerant as the religious people who want to force everyone else to join their religion. In either case, they need to learn to mind their own business.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM

Let me correct that first sentence to state it in a less ambiguous manner:

It should neither be required...nor forbidden...for somone to invoke God in a state ceremony.