BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 07:35 PM

Religion comes of being a conscious entity. When ever Man gasped "Why?" religion was born because he realized "existence" and has been trying to nail it down ever since. It is no small thing that YHWH's name means "I am, that I am", a very succinct statement of being.

We all worship something (honor as "worthy"). Whether it is an idealized being, art, sex, money, truth, nobility, or self we DO worship there.

If you don't have an object of devotion, you are not living.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 06:52 PM

And by the way...ever noticed that people who look for trouble have absolutely no trouble finding it? ;-) That's exactly what Lao-Tse is advising against. He is making a philosophical statement about human psychology and behaviour, not a religious statement about faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 06:49 PM

Taoism is not a religion, Peace. It is a philosophy.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: John P
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 06:38 PM

Robomatic said, "It is all too easy too dismiss God because of all the evil aliens who have attempted the role, and most times it is a valid dismissal. But does that mean that ALL times it is a valid dismissal?"

It's pretty easy to dismiss something for which there is a complete lack of evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 05:31 PM

I think Arkansas. I'll look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 05:30 PM

Ian-
y'wrote:
Fascinated and very pleased that somebody says I made a circular argument when I said if God does not exist, nobody can be offended.

Even more happy to have Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy quoted, as Douglas Adams had, to what I read, very similar views on religion to what I have.

I think some of the Jewish references to God, which is what I was raised with, summarize just the circularity of God. When asked who God is, the answer is: "I am that I am". Other references are: "Who Was, Who Is, Who Is To Be". (Hebrew can be admirably terse when it isn't infuriatingly terse.)

God is subversive AND recursive!

Now, for the rest of my philosophy, as you noticed, I get some from Hitch-hiker's Guide To The Galaxy. I also get some from Star Trek. There's a Star Trek movie where supposedly God wants to use the Enterprise to spread the good word, until Kirk, in a cute moment, says: "Uh, excuse me, but why would God need a starship?" This of course unmasks the fact that it is NOT God, but some evil alien.

One of the things we know about God, from both the OT and the NT, is that God makes things happen just from speaking them.
OT- "And God said: Let there be-"
NT- "In the Beginning was the Word"

It is all too easy too dismiss God because of all the evil aliens who have attempted the role, and most times it is a valid dismissal. But does that mean that ALL times it is a valid dismissal?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 05:19 PM

Mrrzy - Where do they have a Green Party senator?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:56 PM

There is a green party senator who is starting a bill to eliminate the clause that nobody who disbelieves in God can be elected OR be considered competent to testify in a trial, from their state's constitution. Well, that's one state, with luck, IF it passes...

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:10 PM

"A Taoist does not seek out enemies at all, he does not provoke them, and by not seeking them he seldom has them."

Every religion has that tenet in it somewhere I think. Nice on paper but short in this world's reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:52 PM

Yes, Strinsinger, you are quite right about the problem existing in the USA in that regard, and it's a serious problem. The USA is the only western democracy I know of that has this situation where you cannot get elected unless you show public demonstrations of Christian piety and invoke God.

I think, though, that efforts to promote things like removing God from the Oath of Office or removing "In God We Trust" from your money would only provoke a greater reaction and an increase in that problem. It would cause the Religious Right to be more militant, not less so. It would be akin to waving the red flag at the bull or throwing gasoline on the fire.

Therefore, I think these matters are better off ignored, frankly. The less importance and attention you give them, the less power they have.

And that is true of a lot of things, come to think of it.

That is why Lao-Tse in his Taoist teachings advised that the path of wisdom is to avoid all unnecessary conflict because in his words "by opposing an 'enemy' you give him strength". A Taoist does not seek out enemies at all, he does not provoke them, and by not seeking them he seldom has them. This does not mean that he can't deal with trouble when it arises....it just means he doesn't go around looking for it all the time.

You follow?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:24 PM

Little Hawk, I would agree with the two statements that you made about the rights of those who believe and do not believe.

The problem here in the States is that the Christian religion has shut out any other avenue of expression in the public square or in government. For this reason, I think it is hurtful that
this expression takes place at an inauguration for a president that presides over the people of the US.

From what I can ascertain, there are many in European countries who place little emphasis on religion and take the public pronouncements with a grain of salt. For some, it's the crazy uncle in the attic. So maybe when your royalty makes statements of "faith", they are not taken seriously by everyone to the degree that those non-believers are not shut out of the political process. I don't pretend, however, to know this.

Here in the States, a non-believer can't be elected to public office. This is anti-democratic and it hurtful.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM

Bill, it wasn't the Eisenhower administration that began the practice of putting "In God We Trust" on American coins. It was Lincoln's administration in the Civil War era. I looked it up at this site:

The history of "In God We Trust" on U.S.A coins


"In a letter to the Mint Director on December 9, 1863, Secretary Chase stated:
I approve your mottoes, only suggesting that on that with the Washington obverse the motto should begin with the word OUR, so as to read OUR GOD AND OUR COUNTRY. And on that with the shield, it should be changed so as to read: IN GOD WE TRUST.
The Congress passed the Act of April 22, 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin."

So, the initiative for this motto began during the Civil War years. In the approximately 150 years following that there have been various American coins minted with that motto and others minted without it. It's an interesting story. Go to the site and read the whole thing if you feel like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 01:33 PM

I grew up without religion, Mrzzy, and so did most of my cousins, as far as I know. All I believed in when I was a kid was science, Darwin's theory of evolution, recorded facts, stuff like that...you know, the prevailing dominating ethos of our particular cultural age in the western world.


I think that "To Thine Own Self Be True" would be a great motto to put on coins, Bill. ;-) I'm all for it. Was it during the Eisenhower era that the present motto "In God We Trust" got put on the coins?

Looking at some older American coins on the Net, I see "Liberty", "E Pluribus Unum", but not "In God We Trust".

Slag, by the way, is quite correct in what he says that "At the very least a plea to "God" is an acknowledgement that we human beings are less than perfect. "God" acknowledges or becomes a symbol of our very finest and highest ideals. Here is Truth and Justice, fair play and the end of racism and other divisive and pernicious evils that plague us. God is a title, not a name. To some, Allah is god. To others Yahweh or Jesus is god. The Great Spirit I can relate to. Some reverence Buddha or Krishna or still others only acknowledge their OWN highest and best inclinations. The point is that God or god, if you prefer points to that which is higher than our current state of affairs. We ought never to stop aspiring to improve."

That is exactly why human beings have conceived of a "God" or "gods" ever since civilization began. They were setting up the concept of an ideal of perfection toward which people could strive and from which they could derive inspiration. An ideal of perfection is always resting in the back of the human mind, and it is what causes us to constantly strive to improve things. We are always reaching for what may be unattainable, but is still well worth reaching for.

Some have named that ideal of perfection in a personalized way and called it "God" or "Allah" or "Jehovah" or "Jesus" or "Odin" or many other names. Others have not personalized it so much but have given it a de-personalized name like "the Tao", "the Way", or "The Great Spirit", or "enlightenment", or "Oneness".

In all cases, what is being named is people's mental concept of perfection...of the highest ideal that they can conceive of.

You can deny "God", Bill, because you happen to be offended by organized religion... ;-) But you cannot deny the ideal of perfection itself. We all instinctively seek it. Religions have symbolized that search in various unique ways, according to cultural viewpoint.

Science also seeks to perfect things, because the search for perfection is universal.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Musket
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 12:23 PM

Fascinated and very pleased that somebody says I made a circular argument when I said if God does not exist, nobody can be offended.

Even more happy to have Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy quoted, as Douglas Adams had, to what I read, very similar views on religion to what I have.

Religion is a circular argument by definition!

It is at best a set of ancient translations which manipulative people use on shallow people to reinforce their bigotry.

It is at worst an excuse for wiping out peer competition. Wars are no different to lions killing the cubs of their competitor lions. It is an instinct, and religion is used as an excuse to prove we are not above other species after all. (See what I mean about agreeing to circular arguments?)

Just one small thought, as this is about USA inaugurations. It was confirmed above that the USA is about freedom of religion rather than prescribing one. Here in The UK, our head of state is also head of the Church of England. Hence we are supposedly a Christian rather than secular country. Yet correct me if I am wrong, religion plays less influence on our law making than most secular countries...

Mind you, did you see the bigots froth at the mouth with self righteous zeal when Prince Charles said that when he is King, he will be the defender of faith, rather than defender of The faith. Then went on to marry a Catholic for good measure.

Now that's style!

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Megan L
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 12:07 PM

Aye its a strange world everybodies fur free speach as long as ye agree wie them

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: John P
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM

I don't really care about the inauguration. I do care about the coins, the pledge, etc. When I see my government officially promoting a religion that I'm not part of, I feel like they want me to be a second class citizen.

The Ten Commandments on courthouse walls is a particularly noxious example of this. If I ever had to stand trial, I would hope to be tried in a Christian courthouse. I would make sure the fact that I'm not a Christian made it into the court record. Then I'd appeal on the concept that I didn't get a fair trial because I'm not a Christian but was being tried in Christian courthouse by a Christian judge, and Christianity is obviously an official stance of the court.

I am also amused by all the Christians who seem to think they are being persecuted whenever they're told they can't bring their religion into our public life. Given the number of laws we have that are based on religion, that seems rather absurd. Laws against homosexuality, nudity, bigamy, prostitution, and the fact that most liquor stores are closed on Sunday are just a few examples.

To my mind, if a congressperson expresses religion as a reason to vote for or against any bill, they ought to be guilty of an ethics violation. I'd call it treason, given that they are trying to overthrow the Constitution, but I know most folks won't get that.

As for all the folks that want to write anti-homosexual beliefs into the Constitution, I'm left wondering why we don't have laws requiring us love our enemies, turn the other cheek, eat nothing but kosher food, and refrain from wearing clothes made from more than one type of cloth.

John P

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 11:59 AM

No dear, that's two separate things.

Very, very few people grow up without religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 11:57 AM

Two quotes, by different posters:

If God doesn't exist, empty words never hurt anybody.

That's circular reasoning. If the words are really empty, they don't hurt; But words about things which don't exist or aren't true can still hurt or cause harm, and therefore are not empty.

---------

To thine own self be true."

Remember that "true" may have several referents. In this phrase, "true" is intended to mean "loyal": "I'll be true to you, Mary Jane!" or maybe, "I have been true to thee, Cynara! In my fashion."

"True" may mean that a statement comports with actuality: "It is true that Mt. Everest's summit is higher than Mt. McKinley's summit."

"True" may refer to straightness: "He drew a true line from A to B."

And a number of other meanings. Are they too numerous to sit here and type out? True!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 11:47 AM

Ian-

You are making some big assumptions about God, (much as many people make a lot of assumptions about evolution).

If a Muslim were interpreting the coin, he or she might not recognized it as any reference to Allah. If a Hindu were to try to make sense of it, he or she might wonder "which"? A Christian might invoke the "3-in-1" concept and a Jew of course, depending on background, might accept it as is or really resent the connection between an ineffable Being and something allied to materiality which can be dropped in filth, mishandled, or used for illegal/ immoral actions, in other words, a debasement.

It is intersting that people bring their own conceptions to the table, such as God is all powerful, eternal, omnipresent. In the final episode of "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", God ("THE LORD") turned out to be a ______________. I'm not gonna give it away, but it has four paws and drinks milk.

I looked up the phrase "In God We Trust" on wikipedia which had an interesting article about it. My favorite part is of course that "In God We Trust" may come from a SONG, the Star Spangled Banner of course, which ends: "And this be our motto- In God Is Our Trust."

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Musket
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 11:41 AM

I have never tried to rationalise mental health issues...

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 11:32 AM

Yep...you are right, Ian. (The founding fathers were 'mostly' religious, but not quite as some would like to think.)

The Constitution is supposed to be neutral... both allowing, but not prescribing any religion. 'Freedom'

Unfortunately, certain branches of the various Christian denominations have built-in exhortations to evangelize and 'sell' their principles, and they 'reason' that 'freedom of religion' allows them to so so....and they seem to reason that if they can get a majority vote on some principle...such as words on coins ... the minority can just accept it.

It's a difficult mindset to combat.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Musket
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 10:55 AM

Not being a US citizen, I am reluctant to muscle in on this debate.

However...

If God exists, then he is omnipotent and it is impossible to remove him from anything.

If God doesn't exist, empty words never hurt anybody.

the only thing I do know is that over here in The UK, we were taught that although the founding fathers were religious, the constitution is supposed to be secular. Am I right or wasn't I listening properly at school? (the latter has tended to be correct in other areas....)

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 10:10 AM

The 'religious right' model of their faith in action is
"If you do not believe exactly as I do, you are wrong and therefore I shall attack you financially, politically, physically or socially."

Since Ike added the word God to currency, the history, financial and science revisionists have made God the central justification for their financial juggernaut that has now sunk under its own excess cargo of greed. The financial free for all (for the rich) was all sanctioned under God. The National Prayer Breakfast found that steering corrupt financial decsisions into law went down much smoother when it was ordered and sanctioned by God.

It seems we have a vengeful God indeed, for the God invented by men of greed and power serves only them.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 09:08 AM

"...is anyone joining?"


                      Yes, absolutely!

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:57 AM

I like "To thine own self, be true." I could live with that as a motto on our coinage. Sure, you'd have disputes and debates about WHAT truth is and what is true. It too, could just be an ideal that can never really be pinned down. And if someone did not believe in YOUR truth or "absolute truth" or the truth of the situation, then he might feel that you are making him feel like a second class citizen, just for not believing in "Truth". But I like it!

What you don't know about the Amish might fill books.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:17 PM

"God is a title, not a name." ?????

God is a concept..it is a linguistic reference to an idea, and to suggest that we NEED a 'name' in that format to focus our 'higher ideals' is to weaken our concept of 'self'!

What about slogans like "To thine own self be true."? Why not put that on coins? Let's not pretend that "God" on coins and in the pledge is not a direct reference to a religious attitude. It is intended to evoke metaphysical/religious imagery.

Flowery disclaimers won't alter why it was done.

Let those who wish to follow religious ideals do so much like the Amish or Quakers/Friends do...with little fanfare and no preaching AT those who feel differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:04 PM

"How is it hurting you when such a statement is on a coin? How is it hurting anyone? "

Several thoughts come to mind...

First, it is not correct. "WE" refers to the populace of the country taken as a whole, I'd surmise, and there are many, many "we's" who do NOT 'trust in God'.

Second, by BEING on money where it gets seen by everyone as soon as they are old enough to read, it creates a real, if subtle, pressure on the impressionable to 'accept' the idea, whether they had thought much about it or not (and this is no doubt the point)....and this IS very, very close to violating that part of the Constitution about ""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Indeed, it does not establish any 'particular' religion, but it sure seems to me and many others to state directly **that** religious belief is expected!

Third, it 'hurts' by simply being a controversial statement. Why put a message that IS so divisive in a place where it invites debate? As was said, it was NOT always there, just as "under God" was not always in the Pledge of Allegience (another travesty). Both these insertions were lobbied for and pushed into execution BY those who intended to have permanent proselytizing staring at everyone who might doubt, or to make them feel awkward (like when reciting the 'pledge').

'Hurt' is not always directly measurable...like racial remarks or being ostracized by one's peers, it can nibble away at relationships or appear as discomfort among friends. There are no bruises in some 'hurts', but they can last longer than real injuries.

Patriotism does not NEED metaphysical support...and it can easily sabotage it if demanded in disputed ways. We were patriotic before 'special interests' got those words stuffed into so many places.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:59 PM

At the very least a plea to "God" is an acknowledgement that we human beings are less than perfect. "God" acknowledges or becomes a symbol of our very finest and highest ideals. Here is Truth and Justice, fair play and the end of racism and other divisive and pernicious evils that plague us. God is a title, not a name. To some, Allah is god. To others Yahweh or Jesus is god. The Great Spirit I can relate to. Some reverence Buddha or Krishna or still others only acknowledge their OWN highest and best inclinations. The point is that God or god, if you prefer points to that which is higher than our current state of affairs. We ought never to stop aspiring to improve.

If you are a non-believer, fine. But don't put the nix on those who do. By and large, they only want what is better for all. Those who don't, blaspheme when the say god or God and atheists who lie about their evil intentions are just as false and wrong as false religionists.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:03 PM

Of COURSE it wouldn't matter to God. ;-) That's not the point.

How is it hurting you when such a statement is on a coin? How is it hurting anyone? Why do you wish to enforce your own particular form of belief on the nation as a whole and change something like that, when no harm is being done to anyone by it?

Just because it's not your way? That doesn't strike me as a very compelling reason to "fix what ain't broke".

Both religious people AND atheists of the more aggressive sort "bask in the glow" of their own righteous opinions. They do it all the time. They delight in it. Their problem is not their choice of belief, but the chauvinism with which they foist it upon others.

Rig - You ask what happened later? Many, many things happened later. I'd have to tell you about my whole life. I would if I had the time...and if I had the desire to convert you to anything...but I don't. I'm not interested in converting anyone. Let them choose for themselves what to believe in, because it's their life, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:34 PM

If the word 'God' is removed from the pledge and/or the currency, I don't think it will matter to God. I think that invoking God is a good way to keep ourselves and our works in perspective, so I don't object to it, just to the cynicism of the self-satisfied who use it in order to bask in its glow and condemn their opponents as in the campaign of the 'unfrocked' Elizabeth Dole who got what she deserved (upon which I, of course, remarked, there IS a God!)

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 07:44 PM

"I grew up entirely without religion, Mrrzy. Does that make me smart? ;-)"


                Did something happen later? :~)

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM

Let me correct that first sentence to state it in a less ambiguous manner:

It should neither be required...nor forbidden...for somone to invoke God in a state ceremony.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 07:16 PM

I grew up entirely without religion, Mrrzy. Does that make me smart? ;-)

I developed quite a bit of interest in spiritual matters later on and I think about them all the time...but I still do not belong to any specific religion and I doubt that I ever will. I happen to think that Spirit is non-denominational, and therefore friendly and unprejudiced toward all people quite regardless of their beliefs...but that's just my own personal slant on the matter. It's not a statement of doctrine, in other words.

I have no doctrines, I'm just interested, that's all.

It should neither be required...or not required...for somone to invoke God in a state ceremony. It should be entirely up to them whether or not they do it. In Canada, for instance, you can either "swear" or "affirm" when making an oath. If you swear, then you make mention of God in the oath. If you affirm, then you don't make any mention of God. In either case you are giving your solemn word to adhere to the oath, and you're giving it in whichever way personally suits you.

People who demand that other people conform to their own chosen preference in such matters are trespassing on other people's freedom of will and their freedom of speech.

You can't make other people be like you. And a good thing.

Freedom of religion in a society means two things to me:

1. You are free to openly practice the religion of your choice.
2. You are free to openly subscribe to no religion at all...in other words, to be an atheist or an agnostic.

People who want to ban other people's demonstrations of their religious faith in public are just as intrusive and intolerant as the religious people who want to force everyone else to join their religion. In either case, they need to learn to mind their own business.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 07:02 PM

Wait a minute! Obama's inauguration doesn't belong to him. put him there.
It's ours. I think Newdow is right. We don't need religion in the inauguration. (Think of the reaction if JFK had had a priest at his.)

Get religion out of the public square. Otherwise, there will be further battles.

Yes Bill D. We don't have to outlaw religion. Just get it out of public offices.

BTW "In god we trust" was put in money comparatively recently by a lobbying minister.
It was not always there.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 06:07 PM

"...what is it going to hurt to ask God's help on the whole thing?"

The very structure of the question assumes there is a God to be asked for help....that is what is under scrutiny. There are people who are not concerned with DISproving God: they just don't wish other folks assumptions to intrude on their lives.

*I* grew up with religion...as a Methodist. As I learned how to ask questions about truth and belief, it became obvious to me that belief was just that...belief. There's a reason we have a separate word for concepts and ideas that are not proveable, obvious facts. There is also a reason why a modern society should not demand that certain notions and beliefs be required in public ceremonies and rituals.
Obama...or anyone else...can invoke HIS highest principle to declare his sincerity: I don't mind. And if I understand it correctly, Christians believe that God can 'hear' prayer without it being invoked out loud over a PA system. Thus, a moment of silence so that everyone can silently pray, meditate, contemplate...or just wait... ought to be enough.
   I have a Jewish friend who belongs to a non-religious organization, which just happens to have some dedicated Christians leading it. He tries to be out of the room before they begin each meeting with a public prayer "in JESUS name".

I am sure that, if the country were 97% atheist, Christians would at least appreciate being able to attend church, pray quietly, and not be pressured to 'stop' believing.
One-more-time: "Freedom OF religion must necessarily included freedom FROM religion for those who wish it."

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:44 PM

Dougr, as Mark Twain said, "It's Heaven for climate, Hell for company!"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:29 PM

Gee, it looks like when I get to heaven there's not going to be many Mudcatters to argue with. What a disappointment.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:19 PM

"...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."

No, I don't want God out of the US Inauguration. I don't even want it out of the US Presidential Inauguration.

The Latin root for inauguration is "augury"; soothsaying. It goes deeper yet in that augury comes from reading the entrails of birds (Bald Eagles?) and if that doesn't put the stamp of hocus pocus on the proceedings what is it going to hurt to ask God's help on the whole thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:06 PM

Mrrzy - I might go along with your first assumption but not the second. Lot's of smart people "have religion". Our banjo player has his doctorate in theology from Harvard. He reads Greek and Latin. AND he can play a 5 string banjo. He can't tell a joke however. He can't even remember them.

Your first assumption doesn't hold water either come to think of it. Lots of people grow up with religion and reject it. Some grow up without it and embrace it later. Your past does not dictate your future. So unless you've had a personal conversation with Obama you're assuming facts not in evidence { to borrow a line from Perry Mason }.

But I'm still hoping we can - someday - separate religion from politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM

Hmmm, where did my answer go?

It was, because he grew up without religion, and he's smart.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:09 PM

God knows!   ;-) (if you'll excuse the expression)

I think you would have to somehow remake the psychology of a couple hundred million Americans before you could do that in the USA.

As long as your politicians think that raising divisive religious issues will get them votes, they'll do it. Ours would do it too...if they thought it would get them a lot of votes. But it wouldn't. ;-) Politicians are the same everywhere in that respect. If they think a dirty tactic will get them votes, they'll use it. They will always wave the red flag at the public bull in hopes of getting it to charge in the direction they desire.

Canadian politicians do that too, in their own way, it's just that they don't play the "religion" card when they do it, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:07 PM

A Major Miracle!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:59 PM

Great! What would it take to get politicians to do that in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:47 PM

Well, ants are very hardworking, right? They make a good role model for the industrious.

There are plenty of people who are in truth atheists, although nobody knows they are...I wouldn't be surprised if you have already had some presidents who were atheists. They just didn't say so, that's all.

And whose business is it anyway? A person's beliefs in that respect are strictly his own private business, seems to me. That's the attitude the general public takes toward politics in Canada...Canadians in general don't wish to hear a politician going on and on about either his religious faith...or his lack of same. If a politician here were to do either the one or the other and make a public issue of his faith or his atheism, it would only lose him votes...because most people here would find it inappropriate to bring that sort of stuff into politics AT ALL.

I know of no Canadian politician of any note, present or past, who has either campaigned AS an atheist...or AS a person of faith. They simply don't raise the issue at all, because if they did it would make people uncomfortable and they would lose a lot of votes.

Religion is not something you bring into politics in Canada. You are religious on your own private time if you wish to be, and no one cares. Same goes for militant atheism...you do it on your own private time if you want to, and no one cares. Why? Because it's your own private business, that's why.

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM

Does that mean he worships ants?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:50 AM

As opposed to an antheist?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:48 AM

Yes, Wesley, there may be those who are athier than he. I doubt he's the athiest.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:27 AM

That's interesting. Why do you think he's an athiest?

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:25 AM

I think Obama is an antheist, but he'll not be able to come out anytime soon!

Subject: RE: BS: Want to get God out of US Inauguration?
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:13 AM

Something that might help is if you elect an athiest for president. But I can't imagine that happening any time soon. But then again if you told me four years ago that we would have an African-American president I would have thought you were nuts.

If you can find an athiest that has a platform I can agree with I'd vote for him. But I doubt the rest of America would get behind him - or her. We'll see.