Selling muscians work without permission

Subject: Selling muscians work without permissio
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 09 - 09:28 AM

Referred to on another thread but for information .....

'A group of musicians, including members of Blur and Pink Floyd, are demanding the right to prevent the BNP from using their work or selling it for profit.

The party sells a selection of folk albums on its website.

In a letter to The Times today, members of the Featured Artists' Coalition and the Musicians' Union say: "It has come to our attention that the BNP is selling compilation CDs . . . to raise funds. Many musicians featured on these . . . have no legal right to object to their music being used in this way."

from The Times on line today

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permissio
From: olddude
Date: 28 May 09 - 09:36 AM

I am no lawyer but wow I would think that violates every copyright law in any country. A song that someone writes is their property, I would think a performance is also if they don't own the song one still cannot go ahead and make a CD and sell it unless there is some prior agreement.

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permissio
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 28 May 09 - 09:40 AM

Anytime I see "..." I have to remind myself that nothing is ever as simple as it seems.
Especially intellectual property law.
I'm no lawyer either but I can tell you I've been mighty surprised from time to time at what can and can't be done legally.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permissio
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 28 May 09 - 09:42 AM

Are they buying CD's and reselling them? Or making their own without permission from the publishers?

In the first case I think all you can do is complain and in the second case the publishers should probably be contacting their lawyers.

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permissio
From: jeddy
Date: 28 May 09 - 10:13 AM

so if we take it one step further any one could take any song put pictures to it and show it on a big screen. that could be a very dangerous loophole in the law, i just hope that the artists in question have the right to sue, and the copyright laws are tightened,after all it is their song and should have the right to be asked if someone can use it

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permissio
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 28 May 09 - 10:29 AM

Aren't they doing exactly what the National Trust do then?

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permissio
From: nutty
Date: 28 May 09 - 10:42 AM

When an artist or group (in the UK) are contracted to a recording company, they often forfeit the right to copyright on their own material. Everything they record belongs to the company who can dispose of it at will even to the BNP.

All the BNP needs is permission from the company to reproduce the material.

If the artist still holds copyright then things are different.

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permissio
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 28 May 09 - 10:46 AM

But even if the artist holds copyright then surely there's nothing they can do to stop the NF buying their CDs in bulk and reselling them just like any other shop.

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permissio
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 May 09 - 11:00 AM

I drew attention to this here last year.

As far as I can tell, they are not producing any CD's of other people's work themselves, just acting as distributors. I suspect the main purpose is to provide legitimacy for their own execrable Great White Records.

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permissio
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 28 May 09 - 11:08 AM

I personally think that the BNP have bitten off way more than they can chew if they think, for one moment, that they can go up against the likes of David Gilmour and Roger Waters and believe they can win.

There again the BNP and their ilk are not known for their scruples or their morality.

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permissio
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 09 - 12:07 PM

O woe, please read with care.

BNP are (according to the TImes letter) making "compilation CDs". These are CDs that comprise tracks taken from an assortment of other CDs.

Imagine that Sid Bloggs makes a CD ("The Worst of Sid Bloggs") of his performances of songs written by Ffiona Twitchett, for Ratbag Records Ltd. It is released.


Great White Records Ltd (let us imagine) pulls a track from


They reproduce
1. The performance of Sid Bloggs - which Sid will (in simple terms) have sold to Ratbag when making the Worst for Ratbag. GWR need clearance from Ratbag, not from Sid.

2. The sound recording comprised by the combination of sounds on "the Worst". If Ratbag made the arrangements for the making of the sound recording, they will own the copyright int he sound recording. If Sid made the rocording, he will in the real world ahve been compelled to sign over that copyright as part of the release deal.    GWR need clearance from Ratbag, not from Sid.

3. The musical work and literary work created by Ffiona the composer. In the real world Ffiona will be a member of the MCPS, and it will be possible to get any necessary clearnace fromthe MCPS - or the right to reproduce those works by reproducing those recordings may possibly have been passed to Ratbag as part of the release deal for "Worst". GWR need clearance from MCPS or Ratbag, not from Sid.

However, it may be inferred from the use of the recordings that GWR are implying that the artists support the BNP. Or indeed, further, if the comilations are on the GWR label, that the artists support racism. There is a risk that that would be actionably defamatory of the artists - but remember the words of the old Silver Fox - "I run my office on the fees of those who I advise not to sue for libel. I run my Rolls-Royce on the fees of those who ignore my advice."

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permissio
From: Emma B
Date: 28 May 09 - 01:12 PM

Bassist Paddy Gordon, of band Brier - whose songs feature on CD A Feast of Irish Folk - told the BBC News website he was "very, very distressed" when he discovered it was being sold on the BNP site.

He found out when a Musicians' Union colleague e-mailed him "saying he was very concerned and wondered why I was supporting the party".

BNP deputy chairman Simon Darby said "There's nothing they can do legally, once they release that music through their distributor, that's it."

Other folk artists whose work is featured include The Albion Band and Magna Carta

Earlier this year, it was reported that singer Dame Vera Lynn, 92, was outraged that compilation album The White Cliffs of Dover, featuring her song of the same name, was being sold on the site.

The album is still available to buy on the site.

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permissio
From: GUEST,Phil Beer
Date: 28 May 09 - 01:37 PM

There's a track that I'm featured on available through this medium as well. Regretably, there appears to be nothing that can be done about it. The tracks are commercially available and anyone can license them. Myself and several other people involved have been monitoring the situation for a while with a legal advisor. Unless these people were to make some inference somewhere along the line that there is some form of tacit complicity on our part, there is nothing legally to be done. The track in question that involves me was recorded a very long time ago when there was good money being paid to make 'buy out' tracks for commercial sampler albums. I ceased to have any rights the moment it was handed over and the fee paid. This situation re-enforces the pre occupation I now have with retaining control over everything I do.
All one can do is, as we've done on several occasions, is to advise people never to buy it under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permission
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 May 09 - 02:17 PM

basically it depends upon the contracts the artists hace signed with their publishers.

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permission
From: olddude
Date: 28 May 09 - 02:57 PM

Phil
you can count on me not buying it ... if we cannot support our artists then it is a sad world of music that we now live in for sure..

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permission
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 09 - 05:03 PM

Dick, please see my post above.

Subject: RE: Selling muscians work without permission
From: jeddy
Date: 28 May 09 - 08:50 PM

that really is shite...not the info itself, but the record companies can do as they please. my thinking if it is your' vioce you should be able to stop them but if you don't sign the contracts then you won't get much distribution apart from what you sell at gigs.
THAT SUCKS.