BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections

Subject: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 03:26 PM

Hmmmmmm.

I do not understand the requirement of three injections.

I get the first. It's commonly used for pets. However, the combination of the second two would be akin to the outdated procedure (?) for a pet, wherein the first is followed by a final heart injection. (The procedure CAN be the first followed by an injection in the leg???)

I attended the death of my dog. The vet sedated her. Then, he said he would complete the procedure with a heart stopping injection... I should pay and leave. As I was paying, I heard her scream out. It was rough.

I subsequently attended the death of my cat. I spoke with the vet prior to the death and expressed my concerns. SHE was aghast to be told how HE (same clinic) had put down my dog. She assured me it would not happen again. Two shots... peaceful.

Or... was the second shot to my cat the "paralyzing shot" followed by the heart stopping shot?

Maybe I don't wanna know?

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 03:37 PM

When I was a wildlife rehabilitation worker, and later, a veterinary assistant, I was the person holding the animal for the vet during quite a few euthanasias, and they were always very peaceful. I remember it being only one injection though, and it was an overdose of barbiturates or something like that. This was in the mid 1970s. I don't understand the three injection thing either (or even the two injection thing). I've often wondered why, in capital punishment cases, they don't do it the way I remember it being done.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 03:50 PM

I've attended every animal I EVER had euthanized. NONE screamed. All went peacefully in my arms. I don't get it either, nor do I get the 'screaming'

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM

Yelp, Sorcha. Long and loud. It's difficult for me to write about it, let alone explan "scream". I thought it was rather obvious what I meant. My apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:18 PM

There was one dog I helped euthanize that was very difficult. It was a two year old, perfectly healthy dog, that was just bursting with vibrancy and life. The owners wanted it put down because they didn't want it any more, and they didn't want anyone else to have it either. That dog seemed to know what was going on, and it (I think it was male, but I'm not sure) really didn't want us to do what we were about to do. After I stopped working at that job, I never worked as a veterinary assistant again. Several years later, I applied for a veterinary assistant job, and I asked them if I would ever be required to help put down a perfectly healthy animal and they said they couldn't guarantee that I wouldn't be required to do that. So I didn't take the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:20 PM

They were probably doing it on the cheap using potassium chloride. Sends the heart into cramps, basically. Along with the rest of the body. Probably about as painful as strychnine, only quicker.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:21 PM

That's a little bit sick, Carol. Those people ought to get to know that Michael Vick character.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:42 PM

I've always been there for my pets in the past few years, or my Rog has been. It was always one injection, very quick, and very peaceful with the last thing they each heard was how much I loved them and thank you. I guess I could understand giving a person a sedative to keep them calm. They do that before surgery. As for the extra, I guess they want to make double sure they've done a thorough job?

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:45 PM

To get back to Gnu's original point, I have never understood the 3 chemical bit. I had surgery a year ago, and they gave me an IV setup before I climbed on the table. When they were ready, they opened the valve, and I was O-U-T. They could have added anything at that point and I'd never have felt a thing!
I don't know why that anesthesia can't be the 1st drug.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:51 PM

Well, the sedative for a cat is no problem. Pinch the fur on the back, needle... they don't mind it at all. I injected said cat with insulin for a LONG time and it never bothered her at all. But, she was nervous at the vet's and she was BIG and she had claws.

Fact is, when they set the injection behind the front paw for the final shot, they want the pet to be "calm" (well, my two). Then, say your goodbyes and it's immediate, except for the crying.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: GUEST,Janice now in Western NY State
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:08 PM

The execution protocols used by states in the USA call for three drugs given in this order:

1. A fast acting barbiturate to put the victim to sleep.

2. A curare derivative to cause complete paralysis. This is for the sake of the witnesses, not the victim.

3. Potassium chloride to stop the heart and cause rapid death.

The barbiturate alone would be enough if given in a large enough dose, but the victim may take 15 to 20 minutes to die, and all the while could be twitching and making sounds. So the other two drugs are added to hurry the process along. If given in the wrong sequence, or if the second and third are given too quickly after the first, the victim dies in horrible pain but is not able to move or cry out, so no one knows that's what's happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:20 PM

A short rope and a long drop was very fast and effective. The British figured that out years ago -- something like 30 seconds start to finish.

I very much dislike the use of injections for execution. In fact I dislike executions, save that it is the only way we have of permanently "casting someone out" from society.

As for the euthanasia of pets -- I've always known it to be done in one shot, peacefully, in the arms of those who care.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:25 PM

Yes, and not infrequently, we permanently "cast out" the wrong person. Which is why I will always be against the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:32 PM

gnu, you bring up some painful memories for me. I know what you mean about not being able to speak of it- I could sob right now, if it did any good.

To make a longish story shorter, my vet seemed good, she made house calls and I thought she liked animals.

But. When it came time to put down my old cat- I could have throttled and might have, if I hadn't known that she had lots of shots left.

Just as she injected the needle (not before. damn her), she said Now this will hurt a bit.

The cat let out an unearthly roar and jumped off my lap and lurched around the room- wait, I can't do this aftre all.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:34 PM

I figure the most peaceful and painless way for any person or animal to die must be by carbon monoxide inhalation.

The reason I think this is that once in a while you hear about someone dying accidentally from it. Someone on a camping trip brings the leftover coals from their campfire into their camper to warm it up on a chilly night. Then they unwittingly go to sleep and never wake up.

Isn't carbon monoxide what Dr. Kevorkian prescribed for his patients?

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:42 PM

Oh, Ebbie... my tears have come back. Maybe I shouldn't have started this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:49 PM

When I had my fourteen year old dog (with cancer) put down there was only one injection. I stayed there and held him in my arms, comforting him. I had thought about shooting him but there are so many things that can go wrong and I really didn't have the heart to do that. Rom was always a little leery of the Vet's office and he was nervous, kind of like he knew what was going on but as I cradled him he calmed down some. Dr. Strong explained that the barbiturate would relax him and he would feel no pain and that was the case.

The Dr. offered to take care of the body but I thanked him just the same and carried him out to my truck. After I got in and started off down the road I began to cry, had to stop and just cried my heart out. When I arrived home I buried him where my kids had buried there pets and the little cross still stands some ten years later.

I used to be very in favor of capital punishment but I finally realized that it really isn't much of a punishment to release some one of the burden of life. It's just the briefest of moments.

Real punishment is salting them away with their thoughts, with their conscience (if they have one) for the rest of their life. Some go crazy (ier), some discover their humanity, all of them suffer however long their temporal existence may be on this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 06:59 PM

My vet first administers a sedative to relax the animal and then the barbiturate coup de grace.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:02 PM

Well, hell!!! What's wrong with just pullin' the sumabichs behind a pickup truck on a rope on a Texas dirt road... Good 'nuff fir my daddy, good 'nuff fir me... (spit)...

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: Joe_F
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:13 PM

Why not just an inert atmosphere (nitrogen, helium)? Out in 5 s, dead in 5 min, or so they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:22 PM

Bobert! That is rather nasty and irresponsible! Consider the environment... pickup truck? That's a lot of oil and greenhouse adversity there. Surely you could use at least a hybrid.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 09:19 PM

Unfunny and uncalled for Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:13 AM

So is capital punishment... It is barbaric no matter how "humanely" (ha) it is carried out... That was my point, Sorch...

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM

No one other than to defend their country in the military or to defend the life of another has the right to kill. Capital punishment to me is wrong and no place for it in a civilized society. I am ashamed and embarrassed at our country allowing it. They can lock them up throw away the key ... that provides the saftey to others so they won't do it again. Before he was executed the feared leader of the LA gang "bloods" Tookey Combs completely changed in prison. He spent the rest of his life writing letters against drugs and violence. He was executed. How much better off would we be if he was still here doing that. But society got their revenge and that is what it is all about revenge.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:08 AM

Carol's story of having to assist in the euthanization of a healthy and relatively young animal because the owner no longer wants it certainly poses a moral quandary for a vet. I suppose a vet could refuse to perform such a procedure, but then there's a good likelihood the owner would take matters into his own hands and execute the animal in a less humane fashion.

Personally, I think there should be laws not only banning such procedures, but empowering the vet's office to confiscate the animal and put it up for adoption. If the owner has a problem with it, he can discuss it with a sheriff's deputy.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 12:19 PM

Bee-dub

confiscate the animal and put it up for adoption

The difficulty with writing the law to achieve the intended result is that the majority of animals "put up for adoption" are not ever adopted, and end up being euthanised regardless of the good intentions of the lawmakers (including the voters who demand a new law in the group called "lawmakers"). No animal more than a couple of years old has a good chance of being adopted, except as a single-case exception requiring intensive effort on the part of the one managing the placement (and often including at least mild extortion to get someone to take "just this one").

Regulating the reproduction of pet animals would appear to be about the only "sane" approach to reducing the number of animals put down; but it seems little easier than regulating the number of children to reduce the instances of child abuse and neglect.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:58 PM

Why is everyone going on about cats and pets and stuff ?? What relevance does this have to the thread title,which is primarily concerned with capital punishment ??
      Obviously,there are many,many people who are opposed to the death penalty ,although one has to question how they would actually feel if it was their little girl who'd just been raped and strangled.To call the death penalty "revenge" is totally ludicrous---it is a prime human response to an unnatural and depraved act,and the "eye for an eye" principle is fundamental to most major religions,including Christianity,which I always thought was quite big in the USA.If it isn't,then it should be.
               Personally,I would prefer it if the murderer (yes, providing there was NO QUESTION of, and as to, their guilt----I do agree there),were dispatched by a fairly swift method,ie hanging or firing squad.The idea of an injection does seem to me to be a "soft"option,with the added risk of there being a lingering,agonising,death,as happened occasionally,I gather,with the electric chair,although if the murder victim / victims suffered similarly then it might be an appropriate Quid Pro Quo.
             I have never been able to understand the logic of preserving the lives,at ENORMOUS Public expense,of the numerous mass murderers and sex fiends who currently inhabit various British jails (gaols). Indeed,many of them are on permanent "suicide watch" to PREVENT them from doing what the Victorians called "The Decent Thing"-----Beats me !! I would willingly assist them !!
                But no injections, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:56 PM

Firing squad? That is worse than dragging them behind a hybrid. Someon's gotta clean it up.

Oh... if yer gonna quote the bible, don't forget that there are always two opposing arguements. Ture the other cheek negates an eye for an eye. Better to leave religion out of any... ahhh... everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:24 PM

"Why is everyone going on about cats and pets and stuff ?? What relevance does this have to the thread title,which is primarily concerned with capital punishment ??"

Actually it's not until we get to GUEST,Janice now in Western NY State post that the subject matter switches from pets to human.
Really you DO need to read gnus initial post (he talks of his dog and his cat) (remember take brain out neutral before putting mouth in gear)

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: 3refs
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:24 PM

20 years-20 years hard labour. Death by lethal injection-Death by hanging. As I'm sure you can understand, one is a little tougher on the individual than the other. The least physical pain is with beheading and I would assume electrocution would cause the most. The bottom line is your dead, the ending would be the same and only the method would be different.
As for pedaphiles, they'd get no needle from me. Sharpen the sickle and harness the horses, it draw and quarter time!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:59 PM

GNU, you have a lot to answer to, you have had both me and my other half in tears for the past ten miniutes just thinking about having our 3 beatiful dogs 'put to sleep'.
we are so sorry you had to experiance that kind of pain and your dog.
SLIGHT THREAD DRIFT, for a second if i may?   why are pedigree breeders still in existance when there are so many loving and loyal dogs desperate to be rehomed?

carol, we don't blame you for quiting, how can these people who are there to protect and heal animals be so cruel and callous?

THAT HAS MADE ME SOOO ANGRY!!!!!!!!!

as for death row situations, instead of just letting them sit there and waste everyones time surley the justice system could be made more fruitful again, like chain gangs or train them for builders or something.

as for paedophiles,can't we use them for experimments instead of animals? then at least the results would be more reliable, and we wouldn't have to protect and feed them for long because the drugs would kill them before too long.

right that is my rant over take care all xx

Subject: RE: BS: Capital punishment by lethal injections
From: 3refs
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:35 PM

Wasn't going to comment on pets. I did the "Ole Yeller" thing. That's how things were done in my family. She was a German Weimaraner that I'd had for 16 years. Got her when I was 8. I said after that, that I would have no problem shooting anything, ever, if I could shoot her! Haven't shot anything of consequence since, and I'm looking at my 17 year old Shepard-Husky not knowing for sure what I'll do. This is one of those times I pray for devine intervention and I will wake up one day and she will have passed in the night!
"Old dogs, children and watermelon wine!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKRE8GR5SsU