BS: Obit: Robert S. McNamara (6 July 2009)

Subject: BS: Obit: Robert S. McNamara
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 12:35 PM

Died today (7/6). The man who was responsible for actually running the Vietnam War under Presidents Kennedy and Johnson, and who later said that it was a terrible mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Robert S. McNamara
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 01:04 PM

The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara is a film worth checking out for anyone interested in that period of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Robert S. McNamara
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 03:13 PM

For a touching piece of music on the subject of that war and McNamarra give a listen to Kate Long's "McNamarra's Tear"

Bill Hahn

Subject: BS: Obit: Robert McNamerra
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 08:40 PM

Well, here's the man who many of use absolutely despised in the 60's for being "LBJ's Donnie Rumseld" and, yeah, I despised him, as well...

But, sniff, he finally figured out that Vietnam was as a collasal mistake and admitted so and warned future generations not to make the same mistakes... Reckon George W wasn't in school that day...

So I have some very mixed feeling about this guy... Yeah, I fully apprecite his reconsideration but I still see him as a man who was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese and tens of thousands of Americans...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Robert S. McNamara
From: Janie
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 08:44 PM

Terry Gross (Fresh Air) tonight broadcast an interview from a number of years ago when his book was published, and then Errol Morris, Director of the aforementioned documentary movie.

Listening, I found myself reflecting on how experience in some ways breeds wisdom, but that experience also shapes a distorted lens through which we see the present and predict the future.   McNamara addressed that very well during his interview with Terry Gross, on how their experiences of WWII, the recognition, in hindsight, that failure on the part of the West to act sooner contributed to it becoming a world war, and then the rapid moves by the Soviet Union immediately post-WWII to move into Poland, the Bulkans, Austria Hungary and East Germany informed their views regarding Vietnam and the threat, and that even when he and others reached the conclusion that the battle in Vietnam could not be won by combat, intense fear that to simply pull out would lead to WWIII contrained them from advocating for a pull-out. He and others of his generation in power could see the old paradigm wasn't working, but could not see their way into a new paradigm.

How often have many of us found ourselves in the same position? I think the Obama administration does have at least one foot in a new paradigm. I am not always happy with it, because I am somewhat stuck in an old liberal paradigm that I see no longer works, but don't have a clear enough sense of a new paradigm to step readily into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Robert S. McNamara (6 July 2009)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:29 PM

Janie-

Very well phrased.

I do regret that McNamara did not express his misgivings about Vietnam when it might have mattered. He was a "good soldier" with regard to not undermining the Nixon Administration which continued this futile war for another seven years.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Robert S. McNamara (6 July 2009)
From: Janie
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 11:23 PM

Yes, Charley. He was afraid that to not continue the war might lead to even worse consequences than continuing the war.

What is missing, however, from his analysis is the acknowledgement of the seductiveness of power.   The lack of self-awareness, typical, I think, of those who drink from the heady cup of power, resounds throughout the history of man, be it on an international, national, regional, local, or familial stage. Individuals or larger social structures may initially seek power to effect what they perceive to be positive and responsivle outcomes. Once power hhs been obtained, however, maintenance of power often becomes the primary goal, and the reason(s) for seeking influence to begin with often become excuses to maintain power, rather than the purpose of power.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Robert S. McNamara (6 July 2009)
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 11:31 PM

Robert S. McNamara, Former Defense Secretary, Dies at 93
By TIM WEINER
Mr. McNamara helped lead the U.S. into the Vietnam war and spent the rest of his life wrestling with its moral consequences.

The last half of the sentence says it for me. He was not tried as a criminal although by our current standards people may feel he should have been. However, he did suffer severely for his actions. IMO, more so than had he been tried and convicted.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Robert S. McNamara (6 July 2009)
From: Rog Peek
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 01:04 PM

93 eh! The Devil really does look after his own then.

Rog