Origins: South Australia - copyright?

Subject: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 06:44 PM

I brought down a box from my loft, and found it held my music stash, including a book of songs by the Seekers. That included a setting of South Australia by them as a group. At the top it said "Traditional, arranged by the Seekers". At the bottom it had the usual copyright message, with certain additions. It forbade singing the words to a different tune (done that, I'm sure I wasn't singing it as written, having picked it up off their CD), and also, making a parody.

Up to that point, the thought hadn't entered my head, though parodies are what I do. Now, I can't get away from "Twas in Sarf Lunnon I was born, round the great Sarf Circ'lar"

Can they forbid parodying a traditional set of words? To a variant of the tune? Surely if it's traditional, it is only their set of words to their tune version that they can copyright?

Penny

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 06:51 PM

It would be an interesting court case

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Joybell
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 07:03 PM

That does go a bit beyond the usual copyright restrictions doesn't it. Sure would be hard to enforce. Could have been lots of money to be made here from those of us singing traditional songs from long before the Seekers formed.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 07:40 PM

Penny-

In my opinion you really aren't running a risk of copyright infringement of such a traditional song unless you're singing it exactly as the Seekers re-arranged it. But it's always a proper question to ask.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 07:51 PM

As I've said before, anyone can copyright anything. The two questions about ignoring such a claim are a) are they apt to take you to court and b) can you demonstrate that it existed before the copyright claim.

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 07:58 PM

Long ago and far away, Makem and the Clancys published a book of "their" songs (Oak Publications) which was top heavy with "arranged, adapted" type coyrights.

It just so happens that Sing Out! Magazine called their bluff on South Australia, noting that their "version" was note for note, word for word, and in the SAME key that MacColl and Lloyd had recorded it on the LP, "Blow Boys, Blow."

Copyrighting trad songs is not far removed from burning books - Tom

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 08:12 PM

"Rolling King-South Australia"
Several variants to the melody, and two sets of lyrics are given in full in Hugill, "Shanties from the Seven Seas," and another in Colcord.
There are 91 entries for "South Australia" in allmusic.com, most singers (including the one in the DT from McColl) listing it as traditional.

The "Seekers" list Athol Guy as composer, The "Irish Rovers" list Will Millar and the "Clancy Bros." list P. Clancy.
Stay away from these three arrangements and you should be OK.
(But I'm no copyright lawyer).

Also there are ten entries for "Bound for South Australia;" R. Kavana and Murray Cook appear here.

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: autoharper
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 08:37 PM

Parodies cannot be prevented or forbidden. And they're one of the strongest forces in folk music.

When Weird Al Yankovic has a big hit with his own new words to a popular melody, mechanical royalties are paid to the composer(s) of the tune -- and they make money. They composers cannot prevent the parody from being recorded, but they can sue if they don't receive their royalty payment.

Nobody's melody is safe from the parodist -- not even Irving Berlin. In 1961, a group of music publishers representing songwriters (including Berlin, Cole Porter and Richard Rogers) filed a $25 million lawsuit (and that was a lot of money 50 years ago) against Mad Magazine for copyright infringement following the publication of a nifty book called "Sing Along With Mad:" a collection of parody lyrics "sung to the tune of" many popular standards. The plaintiffs hoped to establish a legal precedent that only a song's composers had the legal right to parody that song.

The U.S. District Court ruled largely in favor of Mad Magazine in 1963, upholding its right to print 23 of the 25 song parodies under dispute. An exception was found in the cases of two parodies, "Always" (sung to the tune of "Always") and "There's No Business Like No Business" (sung to the tune of "There's No Business Like Show Business"). Relying on the same subject nouns ("always" and "business"), these were found to be overly similar to the originals. The music publishers appealed the ruling, but the U.S. Court of Appeals not only upheld the pro-Mad decision in regard to the 23 songs, it stripped the publishers of their limited victory regarding the remaining two songs. The publishers again appealed, but the Supreme Court refused to hear it, thus allowing the decision to stand.

The two songs that were excluded because they failed to make what lawyers call "material changes" to the original lyric content. If you don't make a significant "material changes" to the original lyric, the composer may exercise their prerogative to make you sing it exactly the way they wrote it (because you didn't make enough "material changes" to constitute a parody.

For example, I was once sued in federal court for having recorded someone else's composition, and in doing so had changed just a couple of words and made a verse into a chorus.

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:58 AM

Thank you for all that. It just goes into my collection of things that shouldn't have been claimed - there's someone on the net whose website claims ownership of "Salley Gardens" words and music, about long before she was born - and Mike Oldfield "owns" "Portsmouth", of which I have just found my setting for multiple children playing guitar and recorder to various standards. I wouldn't put it quite with book burning. But there was a geological case of a collector who had one of the only two perfect examples of a particular fossil, bought the other when it came on the market, and smashed it. No, it's not as bad as that.

Meanwhile,

I was walking out the other night,
Heave away, haul away
When flashing blue lights came in sight
Round the great Sarf Circ'lar
Chorus

The copper said "Now tell, my dear"
Heave away, haul away
"What are you doing loitering here?"
Round the great Sarf Circ'lar
Chorus

"We'll take you with us now to see"
Heave away, haul away,
"Why you're out here without ID"
Round the great Sarf Circular.
Chorus

Needs work on the chorus and the second line, innit.

Penny

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 12:32 PM

Penny,
Why 'Heave away, haul away'? These are nautical expressions. Surely something more appropriate to the subject wouldn't be difficult to come up with. 'Locked away'?

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 12:39 PM

Oh Hell. Oscar Brand holds the copyright for Yankee Doodle.

Subject: RE: Sally (Salley) Gardens copyright claims
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 01:16 PM

Digression- Sally (Salley) Gardens; copyright claims:

"Sally Gardens" - 177 listings (some duplications, collections listed)
Copyright claims to their versions- Norman Blake, T. C. Kelly,
B. Williams, and A. E. Houseman for the Makem-Clancy version.
A. E. Houseman was a well-known poet; the Clancy's version may be based on his poem which differs from traditional versions; I haven't heard it.

"Down by the Sally Gardens" - 173 listings (some duplication, collections listed). Copyright claims:
Thirkell Keiles, Daniel Scott, Herbert Hughes, R. May, Stone Circle.

"Salley Gardens" - 34 listings. Claims:
Michael McGlynn, Ariello Liliano, Federico Garcia Lorca, William Butler Yeats, John Ireland plus Wm. Butler Yeats.
Yeats and Lorca are famous poets; they may have produced their own poetic versions. John Ireland is a composer and I suspect a choral or symphonic arrangement.

"Down by the Salley Gardens - 52 listings. Claims:
Derek Bell, Bill Whelan. Pairings William Butler Yeats and Ed Sanders, Maids of Mourne Shore. Mike Briggs plus traditional. Benjamin Britten is listed, probably a choral or symphonic arrangement.

There may be others; I didn't go beyond the allmusic.com lists.

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 02:35 PM

South Australian Chardonay
Heave away, haul away

L in C

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 02:59 PM

No, don't heave away! Haul away, drink away

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 03:07 PM

Houseman? It's Yeats! At least, I always thought it was. And the recent claimant was none of those notables, but a female singer of Irish tunes. And I thought the tune was Thomas Moore.p

And I know I need to dump the nautical. I think maybe steal away?

Penny

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 03:11 PM

From wikipedia

Down By The Salley Gardens (Irish: Gort na Saileán) is a poem by William Butler Yeats published in The Wanderings of Oisin and Other Poems in 1889. Yeats indicated in a note that it was "an attempt to reconstruct an old song from three lines imperfectly remembered by an old peasant woman in the village of Ballisodare, Sligo, who often sings them to herself."[1] Yeats's original title, "An Old Song Re-Sung", reflected this; it first appeared under its present title when it was reprinted in Poems in 1895.[2] The verse was subsequently set to music by Herbert Hughes to the air The Maids of the Mourne Shore in 1909. In the 1920s composer Rebecca Clarke (1886-1979) set the text to music.[3] There is also a vocal setting by the poet and composer Ivor Gurney, which was published in 1938.

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 03:22 PM

Careful with Steal away - the Furies might sue you.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 03:26 PM

Text from a site with the singer's claims.

"You are viewing Down By The Salley Gardens lyrics written by Oconnell Maura.

Down By The Salley Gardens lyrics in KOvideo are property of respective authors, artists and labels. If you want to use these lyrics, please contact the authors, artists or labs. If you like the sound of Down By The Salley Gardens lyrics, please buy the cd to support Oconnell Maura."

I'm not putting links to sites, all in the same name, because they seem to be a bit iffy, apart from the copyright claims. One, however, has had a challenge, and removed the lyrics.

As for the Seekers. they seem to have been trying to prevent people singing any version, either theirs, or any variant.

Penny

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 06:17 PM

Well, I know some of the Seekers heard me on one occasion (many years ago now) singing

"Here I am on a foreign strand
Heave away, haul away
with a bottle of Fosters in my hand
and we're bound for South Australia."

without any demur from them.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 07:42 PM

The Kingston Trio were able to copywright their folk song-based material by the addition of a new verse, the changing of a line or some key words, etc., and altering the music slightly. My understanding is that this was to prevent anyone from singing their personalized version of the song without compensation through ASCAP or BMI. It was their only way to protect themselves since most of their older stuff came from the public domain. I'm sure the agents for most folk groups of the time used the same technique.

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:05 PM

Always a topic of interest here, and I always learn something new.

My basic approach to recording songs is to contact anyone who composed the tune and/or the lyrics and offer to pay them the standard royalties of $80/1000 CD's printed, in exchange for their permission. I seldom sing what I record exactly as it might be copyrighted. In fact most times I will alter a line or even rearrange verses, or the melody. But I think it's important to credit the folks who created the song, or adapted it from a traditional song in some significant way.

I feel the same way about people who wish to record songs that I've composed or songs I've adapted from old nautical poems. They should ask for permission, offer royalty payment, and credit me for my work. And I don't expect them to sing it exactly the way I do but it would be nice if it bore some resemblance!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:25 PM

The kingston Trio (and others) did make some changes to justify their copyright. They didn't have to, tough. And it's doubtful that their copyrights would have held up if challenged.

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: autoharper
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:55 PM

Standard mechanical royalties are currently 9.1 cents (US) per song/per copy replicated, or $91.00 per 1,000 CDs.

If a song has already been recorded and commercially released, you don't need anyone's permission to record it - - but you do have to pay the mechanical royalty.

If a song has never been recorded and commercially released, you must have written permission from the composer. And it will be interesting to see how courts re-define "recorded and commercially released" in this time of the MP3 and the internet.

-Adam Miller

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 03:56 AM

Sorry if this point has been made above but do people copyright stuff to make it clear that they are not simply playing things exactly as others have, and hence breaking copyright?

L in C

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 01:57 PM

Developed version, partially trialled last Monday at the Foresters.

Twas in Sarf Lunnon one dark morn
Steal away, squeal away
I found myself left all forlorn
Round the great Sarf Circ'lar

Steal away you roaring boys,
Steal away, squeal away
Steal away, just hear the noise
Round the great Sarf Circ'lar

I'd left my car securely locked,
Steal away, squeal away,
When I returned it had been twocced,
Round the great Sarf Circ'lar
Chorus

So I walked back that dismal night,
Steal away, squeal away
When flashing blue lights came in sight
Round the great Sarf Circ'lar
Chorus

The coppers said "Now tell, my dear"
Steal away, squeal away
"What are you doing loitering here?"
Round the great Sarf Circ'lar
Chorus

"We'll take you with us now to see"
Steal away, squeal away,
"Why you're out here without ID"
Round the great Sarf Circular.
Chorus

I told them how my car'd been took
Steal away, squeal away
They laughed so much their shoulders shook
Round the great Sarf Circ'lar
Chorus

"That really was a stupid call,"
Steal away, squeal away
"This is Sarf Lunnon after all"
Round the great Sarf Circ'lar
Chorus

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: GUEST,Tone Deaf Leopard
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 06:29 PM

We likes... well done Penny!

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 08:14 PM

No one can prevent you from singing words in the public domain to any tune in the public domain.   Their copyright in the words reaches to any additions or changes they made to the p.d. words, not to the p.d. words themselves. Their copyright in the music reaches to any additions or changes they made to the traditional tune, not to the traditional tune itself.

Of course if all you have is their version, it may be hard to separate out their copyrightable components from the uncopyrightable ones. I call this the "derivative work deconvolution problem."

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 08:58 PM

PennyS-

Nice work!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 30 Aug 09 - 11:23 PM

What means twocced?

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Rowan
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 02:30 AM

Great one, Penny

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 03:11 AM

TWOC means ' taken without owners concent ' usually applied to joyriders etc.

My understanding is that you can't copywrite a traditional song, only an arrangement.

Martin Carthy has almost completely re-written some songs but still credits them as ' trad arranged Carthy '


Dave H

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: Penny S.
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 03:19 AM

Thank you. And all because of that little phrase on the music page.

Penny

Subject: RE: Origins: South Australia - copyright?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 06:07 AM

I'm always been interested in what actually constitutes an arrangement. Take for example The Animals arrangement of The House of the Rising Sun. Now, as we all know, The Animals got this song from Bob Dylan's first album. They kept Dylan's chord progression ( which he, in turn, got from Dave Van Ronk)and added an arpeggiated guitar backing and sustained organ chords ( and drums and bass, of course). Now, this song is copywrited as arranged by the organist Alan Price ( much to the chagrin of the rest of the band). Now, the part of The Animals' arrangement that was most distinctive, and certainly the feature that was picked up on by most bands at the time, was the arpeggiated guitar chords. I wonder if that was the guitarists idea, or did Alan Price suggest that to him?