Do you like 'Little Boxes'?

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 07:17 PM

I never lived in such a development, but I lived thru the period in which they were built (b. 1937 -- too young to be a beatnik, too old to be a hippie), and I can remember some of the circumstances & the literature. The mass production of housing was to a large extent a rational response to a situation in which little housing had been built during the depression & almost none during the war, and the veterans came home & started families & wanted housing, and the economy had recovered & people had money again. Some of the consequences well deserved criticizing & satirizing: see Riesman's _The Lonely Crowd_ & Keats's _The Crack in the Picture Window_.

The uniformity of housing developments was also, of course, symbolic of the conformism that was rampant in the decade after the war -- the idolatry of Society. Independence of mind was widely thought to be impossible (you were either conforming to a subculture of deviants or merely being perverse) or a symptom of mental illness. Fortunately, there was also a great deal in American culture that was at odds with the glorification of cowardice (Emerson & Thoreau were still read in the schools), and it couldn't last. On the fringes, besides "Little Boxes", there were Mad Magazine & the scathing sf stories by Kornbluth & Pohl. So then we had the silly '60s, which were a relief from the stuffy '50s, which were a relief from the bloody '40s, which were a relief from the dirty '30s.

(For me, incidentally -- and perhaps even for Malvina Reynolds at the time -- the primary meaning of "tacky" is slightly sticky, like paint that hasn't quite dried, or an asphalt road on a hot day.)

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 07:49 PM

I live in a mostly prefabricated box that is on a hill, due to the tennants association rules, it is neither green, nor blue, nor pink, but in fact a bland beige. And I was a business executive.

But my I suffered my greatest pain in my back yard one pleasant Sunday afternoon, when I realized that a)there was charcoal burning everywhere, B) we did, in fact, have a TV in every room.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 08:00 PM

Loved that song when I was a kid.
Then as got a bit older liked it more.
Gonna find it on Spotify and see if that still applies.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 08:23 PM

Well, listened to a few covers and yup still like it.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 08:24 PM

Always reminds me when buying raffle tickets:
There's a pink one, and a green one, and a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made of tacky paper and they all lose just the same.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 09:43 PM

It had been a while since I'd heard it so I had a listen on You Tube. I don't like it - it's just a little too smug. I do understand the sentiment - for a while little 'planned communities' were springing up around here like mushrooms until the real estate crash mercifully put a halt to it. In some cases I felt they were real eyesores. But I don't care for the song.

Subject: ADD??: Charlie the Midnight Marauder
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 09:57 PM

This came out sometime in the late 1950s as I recall. The Limeliters. Except for the first verse, which is spoken (as if cominng through a police radio), it's to the tune of "The Old Settler's Song" or "Rosin the Beau." Perhaps it makes it's point a bit more graphically and amusingly than "Little Boxes," which never particulary rang my chimes. . . .

CHARLIE, THE MIDNIGHT MARAUDER
(Bagby / Davis)

The Limeliters

Calling car 41
Calling car 41
Investigate a code 7
At 116 west 14th St. and report
Looks like Charlie's at it again

Oh Charlie was raised in the city
He scoffed at the suburban life
Til satan disguised as a salesman
Bewitched and bewildered his wife

She heard of the pleasures of rural life
With barbecues under the trees
And so for a mere forty thousand
He purchased their dreamhouse with ease

He rose before dawn every morning
To dreamily fall into line (yawn)
And follow that bumper before him (Beep Beep)
To be on the job before nine

His dreamhouse of crumbling stucco
Was more like a nightmarish load
His weekends were spent in hard labor
He dug and he pruned and he mowed

One night an electrical failure
Blacked out every street in the tract
Our hero drove up in confusion
But couldn't locate his new shack

Each crackerbox looked like the one next door
As far as the eye could see
He cursed to himself as he pondered
Now where in the world can it be

He searched til a door looked familiar
Than tried out his key in the lock
The door open wide and he entered
Poor Charlie was on the wrong block

He strode to the couch of his sleeping love
He kissed her and backed off in fright
The girl he had kissed was a stranger
Who screamed and ran out in the night

They caught him a few minutes later
Still rooted and shaking with fear
They called him the midnight marauder
And put him away for a year

And put him away for a yea-ea-ear
And put him away for a year
They called him the midnight maurauder
And put him away for a year

When a salesman is touting suburbia
He's doing it purely for pelf
Remember the story of Charlie
And tell him to move there himself

And tell him to move there himsel-el-elf
And tell him to move there himself
Remember the story of Charlie
And tell him to move there himself

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 11:18 PM

So I've been to bed. Up at 0400 our time - to find my thread has achieved well over 100 hits in one day. I never dreamed it would hit such an obvious nerve.

All very well for olddude & jeri & others to say I'm raking over old stuff no-one cares about any more; for Sing4Peace to enquire if I am advocating censorship - a 'lyrics policing squad' [I haven't advocated anything, just asked a question & ventured my own opinion as to the answer: if one can't do that without being accused of being a lyrics-cop, then what is this Forum for, eh, Mr Sing4Peace?]. But words like 'smug' & 'sanctimonious' [quoting Tom Lehrer, no less!], reports of Malvina R having later regreted certain aspects of the song [but did she ever apologise explicitly to the poor abused docs & lawyers & biz-execs - somehow I think not!]:- I say again, did I ever hit a nerve!

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 03:13 AM

A nerve? Bit more of a Madeleine moment (or should that be cookie) to me. All the personal stories, which recognise the pastel painted picture of a highly conformist post War America, and the conditions which generated that, are wonderful.

As far as the Urban Sprawl thing is concerned, I suspect that the US posters are correct there. The only development to equate with it that I can think of is Milton Keynes. Which while I know little about the place myself bar it was an initiative to cope with 'London overspill', was always rubbished as a plastic toy town by my elders.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 03:37 AM

"poor abused docs & lawyers & biz-execs" - I think they'll get over it!

On the whole like Little Boxes. I relate especially to what sing4peace said: "I was so grateful that there was at least one other human being out there who was as disturbed by the cookie cutter mentality as I was". A similar thing happened to me with Pulp's "Sorted for E's and Wizz" which attacked the drug-driven rave culture that seemed to be the new conformity for my age group at that time.

Cheers,
Doctor Pete.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 04:48 AM

I'm glad you at least seem to have got over it Dr Pete. & indeed I am sure they will all have survived Ms Reynolds' unprovoked onslaught relatively unscathed: if she had said such things about me I know a flying-fuck is what I would not have given. But ytf should they have had to? - what had they done to deserve being thus dissed, apart from choosing to live in a form of dwelling that Ms R chose to get all sniffy and smug and sanctimonious and arrogant [all words used above by other posters including a quoted T Lehrer, not by me] about - that still seems to me to be the question.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 05:54 AM

The BBC in the early sixties seemed to regard 'Little Boxes' as a children's song. It was frequently featured on 'Children's Favourites', presumably because of its simple sing-along style.
Of course in those days it was not customary to analyse any song that came along to within an inch of its life.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 07:01 AM

ARCHITECTURAL MASKS

I

There is a house with ivied walls,
And mullioned windows worn and old,
And the long dwellers in those halls
Have souls that know but sordid calls,
   And daily dote on gold.

II

In blazing brick and plated show
Not far away a "villa" gleams,
And here a family few may know,
With book and pencil, viol and bow,
   Lead inner lives of dreams.

III

The philosophic passers say,
"See that old mansion mossed and fair,
Poetic souls therein are they:
And O that gaudy box! Away,
   You vulgar people there."


Thomas Hardy
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3168

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 07:19 AM

"they will all have survived Ms Reynolds' unprovoked onslaught relatively unscathed:"

I think your sounding a bit hung up on the 'this is a diabolical attack on good hard-working citizens' now. From reading the responses to the thread, it seems to me that the 'doctors and lawyers' (as well as their children) who get "put in boxes", are not being personally attacked in the song, as much as being described as being victims of strong social pressures and expectations (particularly prevalent at that time) to conform to a virtually pre-ordained style of existence. As some here have commented, the Hippie movement would appear to have provided those who went on to reject that particular style of existence, a means of escaping being "put in" those ready made boxes.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: matt milton
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 07:38 AM

nice quote, Piers Plowman! Hadn't read that before. The title's a bit overkill, but as riffs on the old 'don't judge a book by its cover' go, it's nice and concise, while cramming in some nice satire on old money, the pretensions of the middle class (in their "villa") and the myopia of the "philosophic passers by" (ie Malvina Reynolds).

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:40 AM

Well, Crow Sister, if someone described a group I belonged to as being 'all made out of ticky-tacky and all look[ing] just the same' [why? coz we all dress decently in suit·&·tie for work or what?], then I should regard it as an onslaught and a personal attack & not an expression of empathy and pity for the intolerable social pressures being put on me.

Wouldn't you? Honest, now...

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: sing4peace
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:52 AM

MtheGM -

Thank you for picking a topic that would allow us to have a conversation about Malvina's music. That is the point of topical songwriting - to get people talking.

I don't think it is necessary for Malvina (or her daughter) or anybody else to apologize to doctors or lawyers or business executives for attempting to address the creative prison of conformity. I believe in free speech and artistic license- even when I disagree with it.

By the way, it's not MR. Sing4Peace, it's MS. Or you can just call me Joyce. I wonder why you assumed I was a man.

JK

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:08 AM

I genuinely doubt I would feel all that distressed about it. Yes, hand on heart.

But then the kind of social pressures I've experienced are rather different to those being described by some of the posters here. Possibly ones more akin to those described by Doctor Pete there. Which, along with "aspirational" forms of consumerism, I've also managed to eschew. But then, I had plenty of options, and choices available to me. Ones which didn't automatically cast me as some kind of social deviant for not dressing in a suit. As I've also said below, I suspect that class sensitivity, is possibly more of a British default than an American one, be it snobbery of the upright or inverted kind. And as such I think it's possibly important to be careful not to superimpose ones own cultural baggage, on a piece of fairly superficial satirical pop commentary concerning another culture.

And to finally answer the OP question. As it happens, I think the song is pretty dreadful. Though the images it conjures, appear to have provoked quite a lot of recognition in some of the US posters. And for that reason alone, I find it rather interesting.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:10 AM

i think someone should write a song about the stepford wives,and then: one about cardboard boxes,and the poor sods living in them.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:32 AM

'I believe in free speech and artistic license- even when I disagree with it'

So do I, Joyce, but that doesn't make me a censorious copper if I choose analytically to specify my grounds for disagreement - does it? Otherwise, as i say, why have a Forum at all? & if i feel it has caused needless offence to a recipient I don't regard it as censorship to suggest that an apology might be forthcoming: esp, in this instance, as we are told above [by someone quoting daughter, IIRC] that M Rnlds came to 'regret some aspects' of the song; which would I presume be the personal rather than the architectural, wouldn't you agree?

Sorry about the 'Mr': see note on HeadUnderArm thread + PM I have sent you...

Best Michael

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:42 AM

No. It's reverse snobbery and smugness.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: MissouriMud
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:25 AM

I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with art- whether it be music, literature, paintings, movies etc - occasionally casting aspersions at people who live normal lives, based on that very "normalcy". I happen to think I lead such a life and done mind being the subject of criticism for it. Perhaps the US is different then UK in the sense that many of us in the US have this ideal/image of ourselves being free and independent (the cowboy) when in fact in may ways we arent (the Marlboro man addicted to cigarettes), and so it doesn't seem to be that out of place for someone to remind us of that dichotomy. I recall a scene one of the oscar winning and critically acclaimed movie "The Apartment" showing the identically dark suited Manhattan ad-men commuters literally as sheep - no one seemed then(or seems now) to feel it was offensive, in fact it was considered great humor. It is part of making fair comment on social values you disagree with - there is always "collateral damage" to those who (or whose values)are the subject of the comment. I would hate to think we have gotten so sensitivity sensitive that we can't poke fun at or criticize lawyers no matter how cool they are.

I think the song is fine, but a bit dated in its imagery and perhaps a bit too narrow in its focus for my current tastes. The US is a more varied diverse place than it was in the late 50s. There is still room for criticism of issues like conformity, and those who conform, but the images would need to be more current.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:39 AM

"are not being personally attacked in the song, as much as being described as being victims of strong social pressures and expectations"

Think I agree with that Crow sister.
Also see the song as perhaps still relevant today as a veiw of middle England.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 12:45 PM

"No. It's reverse snobbery and smugness. "

There ain't no such thing as reverse snobbery (nor reverse discrimination, for that matter.) It's just a matter of what you choose to be snobbish (or discriminatory) about. And I think that mindless conformity is something worth sneering about.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 01:11 PM

I am reminded by that "mindless conformity something worth sneering about" of a brilliant cartoon of which I have the original, which my late wife published when she was features editor of 'The Teacher' newspaper 35 years ago:- A pair of pupils dressed in the then foolish acme of teenage fashion are passing the door of the Staff Common Room as a staff meeting is ending. One of the group of emerging teachers - all identically clad in suits and ties, all bespectacled, all smoking pipes [this was then] and carrying briefcases - sez to a colleague-clone, 'Isn't it funny how they can never shake off the influence of their peer group?'

So - to which other but similarly conformist clone-group did Malvina Reynolds belong when she perpetrated the song? Self·righteous humourless lefties, I should say.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 01:14 PM

'Self·righteous humourless lefties' ?
I'm not sure just who is being most 'sanctimonious' here!

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 01:15 PM

... and then it got sung around by others of the same, like P Seeger...

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 01:18 PM

Oops sorry, Emma B - forgot it was Against The Law to fail to accept the Lefty Consensus on this website. Ah well - off Down The Garden To Eat Worms again...

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 01:27 PM

The idea that perceived conformity tells the whole story about an individual is something I find distasteful. I find it nearly as distasteful as the concept that obvious non-conformity in appearance and lifestyle mean a person is more intelligent and interesting than others. Nearly sixty years of living have given me a perspective on this. I can only hope that Malvina eventually had a similar epiphany.
I have never liked the song.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 01:31 PM

Yeah, in the larger picture it is a bogus criterion, but at the time and int he context it was a serious sociological symptom, or seemed so.

Besides, it is a funny song, meant to be sung with a grin.


A

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 02:01 PM

'Oops sorry, Emma B - forgot it was Against The Law to fail to accept the Lefty Consensus on this website'

MtheGM why not just lose the 'holier than thou' mind set you have demonstrated throughout your point scoring on this thread and have a wry smile at the parody I posted earlier which, if nothing else, demonstrates that the 'lefties' you are so quick to identify and criticize at least have the ability to take a rise out of themselves from time to time unlike some more pious brethren!

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 02:20 PM

I had a wry smile at it when I read it Emma. It was a good funny parody. But, sorry, I don't see how it affects my main point. What point-scoring? I OP'd this thread as a question - & if you count up I think you will find more Noes the Yeses in the answers, mainly 'scoring the same points' [if that's what we are doing] as me - look at LonesomeEJ, e.g. 4 postings back. Do you think I can't 'take a rise out of myself sometimes' too?

Demonstrate an instance of my attitude being MERELY 'holier than thou', please, & an instance where I have been MERELY point-scoring. I believe in the Socratic 'know-thyself' principle & I shall be interested to read what you can come up with.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 02:30 PM

'What point-scoring?.... & if you count up I think you will find more Noes the Yeses in the answers'

LOL. OK - I take it all back - you obviously can take the piss out of yourself :)

Now have fun counting, I'm out!

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 03:38 PM

I suppose I'm a "lefty" too... at least I am a liberal Democrat. My sister lives in an area that was a development back in the 60's, and the houses are not all the same or made of ticky-tacky. For that matter, we live in an area where the houses were developed in the mid-50's in a new neighborhood. Gosh, am I really a conformist? I never found the song offensive, but I suppose at times I have been mildly irritated at the unholier than thou attitude I hear. I like my neighbors. They're good people. Several of them bought their homes here in the 60's at the time Melvina wrote the song. No concern about their feelings being hurt. I doubt there's a person in town besides myself who has ever heard the song. It's certainly nothing to get wound up about, one way or the other.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Elijah Browning
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 03:40 PM

Greetings from the ultimate in "little boxes." I am writing to you from a small cubicle without privacy in the basement of a large glass and steel corporate building in Northern Illinois. On the shores of a lake a few miles away are row upon row of identical houses. Neighbors know each other only if necessity demands and that is often only if anger has preceded. Yet behind these rows, on the shore of the lake, back in the woods, is the unmarked grave of Joseph Beilhart. Joseph Beilhart, a scarcely known spiritual philosopher, with a small group of friends and family, established a commune that continued for many years after his death, built a large and comfortable home where they all lived together, and believed in the early 1900's, in the American Midwest, that marriage had become a form of female servitude which they were not going to accept. How did the locals of the area react? With compassion and acceptance regardless of their differences. That wasn't the case in other Midwestern locations. It doesn't mean they were more tolerant in Northern Illinois. It just means you never know. Despite Hurst newspapers' efforts to denounce them, the local community often attended his meetings and partook in social events at the "Spirit Fruit Farm." Mr. Beilhart was an amazing man, strangely close to Buddhism in his philosophies via his meditations into Christianity, and he promoted a very loving form of non-resistance. The community is long gone. I've been fascinated by this group and have pulled together a large amount of research on them. It is ironic that the very location of such a successful experiment in social living should be the same location where the individual is now lost in a sea of modern uniformity.

And yet, in this same group of houses lives a family with daughters close to the age of our own. They recently had a new baby, and we watched their daughters till the mom was out of the hospital. When we had a similar need, they reciprocated. We know and they know that should anything happen to either of our families, help is just a phone call away. To them, it is a safe place to raise their children and provide them with a good education. There home is their choice, and I think they'd laugh at being called "victims." It may or may not be the best choice, for them, for the world... Eco morality is another thread entirely. See you there.

Our own home is on a street that wasn't there fifty years ago and our house looks very similar to the rest of the houses around us (except for the Tibetan flag hanging over our door). Insulation vs. exposure is a constant battle within all parents. I challenge anyone who says they have the perfect formula, and if you have a perfect formula, expect chaos to make its introduction. It boils down to this. The human soul can never be contained in a box, physically, philosophically or metaphorically, and any time you are sure you know how "those people" are, radical republican to mainstream liberal, one of them will pop up and prove you wrong and break your box. Stereotypes will prove valid to every test except when attempting to apply them to human beings. And social efforts to contain are often the weight that strengthens the muscles of deviance.

I have a strong desire to visit Mr. Beilhart's grave and am making plans to do so. The grave and the location where the house stood is now in woods that are privately owned. There are No Trespassing signs posted. Figuring out a way to get on the side of the sign that Woody said "was made for you and me."
Gotta go. Boss coming.
Love,
E.B.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 04:06 PM

"I think they'd laugh at being called "victims.""

I'm more than happy to retract that term. I agree, it's way too strong.

But I also think, at least from what I've gleaned from some of the commentary here, that post war America was a time where not conforming to the ideal stereotype, was perceived as rather subversive.

I think it's easier to feel comfortable in one's box, whatever shape that be, if it is the right shape. And for that, one needs to feel able to make a choice. Even if 'counter-culture' is just another 'box' (and I agree, that we all wear some kind of uniform, including hippies), at least there is some self determinism involved, and these days it's much easier to make choices without being labeled 'commie' or 'subversive' or 'freak'.

As such, I think I can understand just how liberating the hippie movement must have been, for those who found expected conformity to stereotypical ideals of social normalcy, no kind of choice at all.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 04:31 PM

I have enjoyed this thread, but, sadly, the original poster has begun to turn on the people who troubled to drop in to visit. When the leader forgets the rules, it's time to find another game to play.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 05:42 PM

Sorry, M.Ted; I hadn't realised it was against 'the rules' for the OP to take any further part in the discussion he had initiated, but that he was required by the sacred rules of hospitality to treat all contributors the same, as honoured guests in his home.

I am going to stand in disgrace in the corner for an hour...

But before I go, where can I find a copy of these 'rules' you rubricate, please, so that I will know better in future?

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 05:42 PM

Elijah Browning, you are quite a perceptive and articulate fellow. I enjoyed your post very much.

Subject: ADD: Sick World (Malvina Reynolds)
From: pdq
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 06:12 PM

...more charm from "Granny" Reynolds:

"Sick World" (a.k.a. "The World Is So Sick.")

(Malvina Reynolds)

The world is so sick it can never be saved,
The world is so sick it can never be saved,
The world is so sick it can never be saved,
It's built a bull-dozer that's digging its grave.

The world is so sick it can never be well,
The world is so sick it can never be well,
The world is so sick it can never be well,
It's splitting the atom to blow it to hell.

The world is so clever, so busy and wise,
The world is so clever, so busy and wise,
It's twisting its words so they all come out lies,
It's forging the iron to put out its eyes.

The world is so sick it can never recall,
It's weaving the noose that is hanging us all,
The people, the critters, the big and the small,
It's weaving the noose that is hanging us all.

So don't blame the kids if they're angry and wild,
So don't blame the kids if they're angry and wild,
So don't blame the kids if they're angry and wild,
This world is no place for an innocent child.

[words and music by Malvina Reynolds; copyright 1964 Schroder Music Company, renewed 1992.]
[Malvina Reynolds songbook]

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 07:21 PM

WHile I can appreciate the sentiment, I must say that is not a very useful exposition, is it?


A

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: pdq
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 07:34 PM

...here is a great picture about...

                                                          conformity and "Little Boxes"

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 08:06 PM

Great picture, PDQ!


A

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: Declan
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 08:11 PM

I quite like Castignaris, but amn't so fond of some of the other small accordions.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:21 PM

The rules, Michael, are the ones that all good mothers teach their children--courtesy of Dr. Dave and Dee's Manners . Pay special attention to #2 , #3, #6 and #10, you need to work on them.

10 Basic Manners for Kids

1. Waiting their turn and not interrupting other people when they are speaking. No one can be heard if there are too many voices at once. Gently tell them to wait until someone is done speaking, and then ask their question. Be sure and give your child your full attention when you are done speaking so as to reinforce the positive behavior of waiting his/her turn. While children are patiently waiting, hold their hand or put your arm around them to let them know you are aware of their presence.

2. No name calling. Even if it's in "fun," name calling hurts. Instead of labels, ask children to explain what the behavior is that bothers them.

3. Always greet someone when they come over to your house. Depending on your level of formality, you can teach your child to shake hands with adults who come over, but it's not necessary to shake hands with other children. However, your child should always say, "hello" or "hi" when someone visits so that the guest feels welcome.

4. Say, "Please" and "Thank you" often. It shows respect and appreciation. In addition, if they are thanked, then say, "You're welcome".

5. Clean up after yourself. Whether at home or at a friend's house, always pick up after yourself. It's their mess, so they need to clean it up. If children leave a mess, then remind them that they need to clean up before the next activity can begin, and stick to it.

6. Good sportsmanship. After playing a game (sports, cards, board game), no matter the outcome, be pleasant. If your child wins, tell him/her to not gloat or show off, but to be kind. If they lose, don't sulk or get mad, but be a good sport and tell the other child(ren) "good game" or speak well of them.

7. Take compliments courteously. If someone praises your children, teach them to be gracious and say, "thank you" and avoid putting themselves down or pointing out flaws.

8. Opening doors for others. When going into buildings, allow elders to go first and open the door for them. When preceding others into a building, don't let the door slam in the face of those behind, but hold the door until the person behind can grab it. Also teach your children that if someone holds the door for them, then remember to say "thank you."

9. Exiting/Entering etiquette. Elevators: allow those in the elevator to exit first before entering the elevator. Same with buildings or rooms - if someone is exiting the building or room through the same door you are entering, let them exit first.

10. Respect differences. When people do things differently from your family because of diversity in culture, race, or religion, then teach your child respect. Point out how interesting it is or how different families do different things. Families have their own traditions or rituals, and it is important and has meaning for that family.

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: pdq
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:42 PM

Like Joseph Eichler, Henry Doelger's work is unique and highly respected in some circles. See biography...

                                                                              here

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:57 PM

M.Ted - thank you for taking the trouble to post The Rules. But they are explicitly & avowedly for children, not for adults. Do you never have the sort of serious discussion with guest or host about differences of opinion [political, e.g.] which is accepted as part of give&take of adult social intercourse? There can often be a certain heat generated, but no intention on either side to offend and rarely any offence taken in such exchanges. I should be interested if you could point out where I have outraged such accepted adult social conventions - as distinct from the ones for children you cite. If one can't occasionally express difference of opinion then what is this Forum for? And how in any event can one 'interrupt' on a chatroom site like this, where one can't rejoin at all until the other guy/gal has finished posting?

I hope it will not be too much of a breach of hospitality for me to aver that I find your views on this matter - ah; how to put it? - er - let us say, 'less than convincing'...

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:54 AM

Beyond the name calling("lefty" and "humorless" are considered very damning indictments hereabouts), you've tediously insisted that people take sides on an issue that isn't even clear(it sounds to me like the houses, not the people, are ticky-tacky)(and it isn't even clear what ticky-tacky is!), brow-beaten those who disagree with you, and generally carried on as if the sky was falling. Very unbecoming of one who is supposed to be shepherding a discussion.

And, on behalf of some purely conjectural doctors, lawyers, and business executives, you have demanded an apology from a person who has been dead for thirty years. That's awkward, if nothing else. And all this without ever having seen the "Little Boxes"--

And the pig got up and slowly walked away...

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 01:13 AM

I haven't demanded an apology right now Ted: I have pointed out that she was said by those intimate with her to have admitted privately she ultimately regretted certain aspects of her song; & I commented a pity that she didn't say so publicly and apologetically THEN - it was obviously the personal not the architectural she regretted. I know i haven't seen the Little Boxes, tho i have seen the pix & can see where she was coming from; but I have made it clear that it is, again, the personal, not the architectural, parts of the song I find so distasteful. I still don't agree that my tone was more than normally the sort of vehemence one would expect in an adultly conducted argument on a felt topic: I just don't accept your accusations of browbeating [browbeat? moi? why, how could anyone ever be scared enuff of little-ole-me anyhow ever to feel browbeaten?].

What can you mean, it sounds to you that it's the houses, not the people, who are ticky tacky? - "And the people in the houses all go to the university, & they are all made out of ticky-tacky and they all look just the same. There are doctors and lawyers and bizniz executives, & they're all made out of ticky-tacky & they all look just the same". That's what it SEZ. Weren't you listening!? [Aw shucks - there I go, browbeating AGAIN! - back down the garden for another worm-feast...]

Subject: RE: Do you like 'Little Boxes'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 01:55 AM

Any-old-how, Ted, who said it was the OP's business to 'shepherd a discussion'? - that's not how I see my function as OP at all. One OPs a thread to put a point of view, not to be an "impartial chairman":- if one of those is needed, I have no doubt Joe Offer will step in, in his trademark red type, to tell me to 'CoolItBuster if you don't want your thread deleted'. Meanwhile, I opened my thread to discuss the matter with all who wished, not to be the GoodShepherd. I think it ill becomes you to tell me what my function should be on my own thread. Who is 'browbeating' who?, I should like to know.