BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!

Subject: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:33 AM

Activists protest Va. strip club's Obama banner


Sep 28, 3:16 PM (ET)

By STEVE SZKOTAK

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) - Activists gathered outside a downtown strip club Monday to denounce as racist a banner depicting President Obama as the Joker from Batman.

"Not only is it an attack on the president, but also on all men and people of African descent," King Salim Khalfani, president of the Virginia NAACP, said of what he called "the abomination that's on the wall" outside Club Velvet.

The banner, unfurled within the past few days, depicts Obama as Heath Ledger's grotesque Joker character from "The Dark Knight." The president is shown with smeared red lipstick, a white face and darkened eyes. The word "socialism" is spelled out below the caricature.

Dancer Kaitlyn McGee handed out a statement from club owner Sam Moore, who did not appear. The statement described him as a "staunch libertarian" and said the banner was intended to show his displeasure with Obama's policies. McGee walked through the crowd with a sign that read "Strippers 4 Obama" to show that Moore is not opposed to the president himself.

"Mr. Moore would like to say that anyone who believes that his banner is racist is an ignoramus," it read.

But the activists said the Joker banner was typical of what they called escalating attacks on the president - from depictions of Obama as Hitler at rallies to South Carolina Rep. Joe Wilson's "You lie!" outburst during Obama's recent nationally televised address to Congress.

"Racism is as American as apple pie," Khalfani said. "The presence of a president that as African blood is very, very troublesome to many in this country."

McGee, who described herself as a waitress and dancer, said customers had not complained since the banner was unfurled at the busy intersection in Shockoe Bottom, a historic entertainment and residential district.

"As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't really bother me," she said. "You could say a lot worse things about him."

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:38 AM

You are such a Troll.
Are you saying that the protestors should not be allowed free speech?

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:01 AM

Are you saying that YOU would have been ok with pro-Bush protesters complaining about a sign on private property during the Bush administration???


Oh that's right, you only approve of freedom of speach for those that agree with you...

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:12 AM

Shame on me.
I fed the Troll, and it did just as expected.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:31 AM

I bit your head off, but that has no effect- nothing there to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:53 AM

The JOKER? A Racist Emblem? They really don't have anything to complain about in their real lives, do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:00 AM

OK, you've got a brain-dead bar owner & a brain-dead poster of this nonsense.

Why enable/encourage either of 'em??

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:01 AM

Your thread title, Bruce, is unduly provocative, and your content, in this instance, is trivial and shows no sign of thought. Are you on the right meds? You seem angrier than usual.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:26 AM

Amos,

Just looking at the people objecting to other's making any critical comment about Our Leader.


Angrier? Perhaps- more likely concerned about the upcoming nuclear war in the Mid East.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:31 AM

This is not a new phenomenon; there were huge waves of very angry mob-think rhetoric when people spoke out against his predecessor, as I recall. It was his (Bush 2) administration that cvame up with the Orwellian concept of herding demonstrators into "free speech zones" where their demonstrations would not demonstrate and would not be detected at the events they were demonstrating against. Brilliant, eh?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:33 AM

Sorry, Amos, that was the local CITY police (at BOTH conventions) that set the zones up.


But I seem to recall it was objected to when the speach of those opposed to Bush was curtailed- so it is OK now???

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:39 AM

I don't necessarily see the depiction as The Joker as racist (except, perhaps, in its clownish resemblance to minstrel-show makeup), but I do see it as grotesque and as an over-the-top accusation that Obama is some sort of evil villain.

Critical comment is fine when it's reasonable. This is not reasonable, and it's not even really "critical comment" -- it's just nasty. Moore's assertion that his banner was only "intended to show his displeasure with Obama's policies... not [any opposition] to the president himself" is ludicrous.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:58 AM

BeardedBruce said, in part:


Are you saying that YOU would have been ok with pro-Bush protesters complaining about a sign on private property during the Bush administration???

You clearly don't understand what "freedom of speech" means, BB. It has to do with government action. ("Government" here meaning all the way from local to national, perhaps even international.)

You (or the bar owner) have the freedom from government control to put up such a poster/mural. The government (any government) does not have the right under our Constitution to punish you for it, nor to take it down.

This assumes, of course, no "fire in a crowded theater" content, no "Let's kill ______ " content.

BUT anyone else has the freedom of speech to be highly critical of the action of putting it up, or of the poster itself. Whether any individual would have been OK with a similar anti-Bush poster is no exception to this.

In direct application to the incident cited, it does not, to me, appear racist on its face. What viewers of various backgrounds may bring to it from their own mindsets is another matter, and they have that freedom. And I have the freedom to disagree.   

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:00 PM

The protesters are engaging in freedom of speech. Anyone have a problem with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: meself
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:12 PM

Of course, we all know that the "whiteface" has nothing to do with why, of all possible pop-culture villains, the Joker was chosen as the one to meld with Obama on the banner ....

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:22 PM

Actually it sounds like both sides are engaging in freedom of speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:34 PM

"Critical comment is fine when it's reasonable. This is not reasonable, and it's not even really "critical comment" -- it's just nasty. "

And the critiscm of Bush wasn't nasty????

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:52 PM

Please provide a link to a picture of Bush as Hitler, Bush as Stalin, Bush as the Joker, Bush as the Anti-Christ or similar. Or how about a gravestone with the name Bush on it?
I've got all of the above for the current President courtesy of the Teabaggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:55 PM

Well, you have to allow the caricaturists a way to make a living. After all, they've just come out of a fat period with a President who was so easy to lampoon. Now that we have a dignified occupant of the White House, it has to be really tough to lampoon him credibly. I think the Joker thing is at least a reasonable attempt.

So, gee, let poor Bruce have his fun. It's really hard for him, now that he doesn't have a caricature for a leader....

See you soon, Bruce.

-Joe, in the airport on the way to the Getaway-

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:56 PM

Have a good trip- You going to Chance's?

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:58 PM

Yup-see you there.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:35 PM

I don't necessarily see the depiction as The Joker as racist (except, perhaps, in its clownish resemblance to minstrel-show makeup)

Which is an exception that provcs the rule. It certainly looks as racist as can be, and it seems reasonable to assume that anyone displaying that poster means it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:51 PM

bearded bruce

It seems that these poor unfortuante souls who use free speech in such ways are frustrated as hell that the one thing they think and want to yell out loud is NIGGER but they are as of yet,fortunatley, incapable of letting themselves do so.

sadly methinks it frustrates you as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:54 PM

youthinks wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:55 PM

Here's a link to a discussion on racialicious.com about the poster of President Obama as The Joker from the Batman movie:
http://www.racialicious.com/2009/08/06/no-laughing-matter-president-obama-depicted-as-the-joker/

(FYI, most of the posters on that blog are of mixed race (not just Black/White).

Here are three examples of blogger's comments (note: I chose these three because they express my opinion on this matter better than I could)


"I don't think that the image per se is racist. I do think however that the subtext is DEFINITELY racist – which is that Obama is a fake, a trickster, a fraud with a secret and threatening agenda (in this case socialism).

Its basically a variation on the same theme that has surrounded him since he first announced his nomination: he's not a "real American" acting for the benefit of "real Americans" (read: the white mainstream). Instead, he has secret interests that threaten the "real America" (i.e. to be the president for blacks who hate whites – or latinos who hate whites, i.e. Sotomayor, to be the secret muslim president, etc etc.).

So yes, the subtext is definitely racist.
-Tarik, 06 Aug 2009 at 5:43 pm ¶

**

It's a striking image but it makes no sense. I don't think it's racist in a direct sense–even with the whiteface but it's racist in the sense of what it reveals about the person (s) who made this image–that is despite his composure the President is a raving maniac bent on destroying Amurrica. Otherwise it makes no sense. The one thing the Prez is known for is his composure. Equating him with the Joker who is a raging maniac is dumb…even though he's acting too timid for my taste on healthcare reform, he's still the only adult in the room and even reasonable conservatives, like David Brooks and Ross Douhat, think Obama is very thoughtful and measured with a great deal of dignity and composure. As DABMG said, this is a FAIL

...conservatives don't do political satire very well at all.
-NYRaze, 06 Aug 2009 at 11:18 pm ¶

**

Oh, man. I remember the Joker knifing people and blowing shit up, but I must've gone to the bathroom during the scene where the Joker pushed forward a comprehensive package of health care reform.

…conservatives really actually don't understand what "socialism" means, do they?
-wembley; 07 Aug 2009 at 1:26 am ¶

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:59 PM

Here are two more comments that were posted on http://www.racialicious.com/2009/08/06/no-laughing-matter-president-obama-depicted-as-the-joker/ :

**

To compare the Joker to Obama is stupid...
1) The Joker is f***ing awesome.

2) The Joker gets sh*t done.

3) The Joker is everyone's favorite Batman character

So let the right wing bigots put up what they want. They are obviously not bright, they have no idea what socialism is. And they are too stupid to see that all they are doing is sowing resentment for years to come against anything they want to do in the future.
-Ty, 06 Aug 2009 at 4:20 pm ¶


**

Riddle me this: If Obama is the Joker, then who is Batman?

Elton, 06 Aug 2009 at 6:38 pm ¶

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:07 PM

That was out of line, D

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:14 PM

who is Batman? someone out there with a gun who feels that their moral duty is to rid the world of a percieved menace. The sort of person who likes to usethe 'N' word

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:25 PM

In my opinion, Superman trumps Batman every time. Who is Superman or Superwoman?*

I say it's all of us who really want equal rights and equal justice for all people in this nation, and in this world.

* I say "Superwoman" since its no wonder that Supergirl has to grow just like Superman did.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:27 PM

BB, it looks like you are unable to distinguish between fair criticism and downright hate speech.

Oh, well. I guess you judge that sort of thing on the basis of who the hate speech is aimed at.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:04 PM

The most recent Joker was portrayed by the now dead Keith Ledger. (sp?)

That Joker was an insidiously manipulative homocidal psychopath!!!
However he could be construed to be a symbol of multi national corporate strategy and ethics.

I have no idea how anyone could think that character was awesome or gets stuff done or is the most well liked character, unless they see that particular Joker as a kindred spirit.

I think that the Joker being in White Face is the ironic joke the wing nuts secretly most admire.



As for wing nuts not making sense, I would have to agree.
I am reminded of their sign "Peace is for MORANS"

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:06 PM

Batman never used guns unless they shot grappling hooks.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: 3refs
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:29 PM

I think the whole white face thing was just an accident. More or less an afterthought. "Oh, it looks like he's been portrayed in White Face". Whether it was Caesar Romero, Jack Nicholson or Heath Ledger, they were all The Joker, and all had makeup!

Not saying it's in good taste!

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:46 PM

The whiteface thing would have been innocuous enough in the case of actors playing the joker, just as it is in the circus clowns from which it is taken.

But when used as in the Obama poster it takes on a whole different of meaning - essentially "beneath his disguise this man is just an uppity n......"

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: sing4peace
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:02 PM

Yes, there were posters of Bush as Hitler. There were also hanging effigees of Cheney, Rumsfield, et al and cartoons of Condoleeza Rice that some might have detected racist undertones in. I heard people joke about assassinating Bush - always met with moans as people rejoined that that would make Cheney president. While I might understand the anger that people felt (and still feel) toward the Bush administration, I personally discourage that kind of activity as it is hatemonging and, as I see it, it feeds "the Beast" and serves the purposes of "Fear Inc.". Not helpful. Label the behavior not the person.

Protest Zones are not new. I was arrested in 1993 for having walked out of a protest zone that had been established to prevent people from having to encounter protesters while attending a commissioning ceremony for the U.S.S. Rhode Island (a nuclear weapons carrying submarine). I took the case to court and eventually was acquitted.

When George W. was in office, he and Cheney routinely ordered the clearing of all visible signs of protest from anywhere along the routes they traveled. I was threatened with arrest by secret service agents with dogs because I wouldn't re-locate to a "protest zone" when Dick Cheney came to Newport, RI to solicit funds from the folks in the mansions on Bellevue Ave. Most people who refused those orders in various parts of the country were arrested for violating "national security directives".

I feel pretty certain that no one would have been allowed to stand outside of a Bush/Cheney event with an automatic rifle and a sign proclaiming it "time to water the tree of liberty" without having been under arrest and subject to some pretty intense questioning. Quaker ladies in peace quilt making groups were under FBI investigation - people WERE arrested for wearing peace sign T-shirts in shopping malls - people lost their jobs and became the subject of homeland security surveillance for voicing anti-Bush statements.

I have been a consistent critic of U.S. military policy through administrations Republican and Democrat since I was nine years old and first figured out what a weapon of mass destruction was. From where I sit, it seems to me we are falling for a continuing campaign of divide and conquer as the US slips further and further into a total surveillanced and increasingly militarized society .

Like it or not (believe it or not) we are all in this together.
Hate is hate is hate is hate. It only breeds more hate.

I'd rather try something completely different...

----
out of the box,
Joyce

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:32 PM

Joyce, I rejoice in your voice of the obvious and the good.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:32 PM

I too have been going to anti-war rallies since I was in single digits. I have never seen a poster of Bush (I or II, or Nixon, or Reagan) as Hitler or anything akin to the Joker. Yes, I saw plenty of chimps, and lots of "some village in Texas is missing an idiot" type stuff, but never caricatures as Hitler. I Googled, and found such caricatures on Iranian and Saudi television, but not at any peace marches. And as Joyce points out, I sure as hell never saw anyone with a rifle.
I think there is a difference in kind, not just degree between the protests under Bush, and those under Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: sing4peace
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:50 PM

There were some scary marchers during the Bush era too. A lot of folks I didn't want to march next to. But I do agree that the tone of the Obama bashers is a lot more frightening than anything I have seen in all of my marching years.

I have been very concerned about Obama's safety and that of our country since the day he (Obama) won enough votes to secure the nomination. It was coincidentally the anniversary of the assassination of Robert Kennedy. All day long on the CNN news channel, the banner announcing the assassination anniversary ran underneath pictures of a smiling Obama.

Unlike the elections of 2000 and 2004, there were no reported incidents of state police roadblocks keeping minorities away from the polls (as there were in Florida 2000) or major voter fraud via computer hackers (as there were in Ohio 2004). Not to under appreciate the organizing that the Obama campaign did - or to downplay what seems to me to be a pretty clear choice between Obama/Biden and McCain/Palin - but it was just too easy. Suspiciously so.

The economy was crumbling. Bush pulled the pin on the bail-out hand grenade before leaving office - leaving Obama to pick the shrapnel out of his skin before even stepping foot into the Oval office. I believe it was always the plan to allow the economy and socio/political discourse to totally devolve under the Democrats' watch.

With the exacerbation of racist fears and class resentments, we find ourselves ill equipped to face the problems that are facing our country. We really need to question everything that comes out of the squawk boxes - left, right - and take a stand for reason over volume.

Evolution Now! (but I guess that won't be televised either)

----
Joyce

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:33 PM

" I believe it was always the plan to allow the economy and socio/political discourse to totally devolve under the Democrats' watch "

Bingo.

That is exactly the plan.

BTW, I lived in "Vo' dIslan'" for 10 years, and loved it - even though I never had a "low numbah" on my car. Even sat next to Buddy Cianci in an Atwells Ave restaurant one evening.

Great place.

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: meself
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 12:20 AM

Bear in mind that, as I mentioned in another thread, the anti-Bush nastiness was largely in reaction to Bush's having taken the country to war - while the anti-Obama nastiness is supposedly in reaction to his proposals to reform the health-care system. If he was proposing to reform the gun laws, we would probably expect such vicious opposition, but as it is, you have to wonder what's really gotten these folks so riled up .... or maybe we know ....

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 02:18 AM

I can't get too concerned about the Obama "Joker" poster; although now that I think of it, maybe I should. There's a menacing, hateful tone to the depiction. The depictions of Bush as Howdy Doody and Alfred E. Neuman had a much more humorous tone. The Obama/Joker poster makes me feel uneasy, like the poster is an expression of hatred.

But what really frightens me are the armed protesters. They impress me as people who want to be a lynch mob. That's hatred, not freedom of speech.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Freedom Of Speech? Not about Our Leader!
From: Alice
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 12:04 PM

And polls on Facebook about killing the president... more hatred, not freedom of speech. The Secret Service has had 4 times as many threats to the president now than they did under Bush.