BS: Schoolyard bullying

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 02:56 PM

David, I hasten to say that I'm definitely not saying or implying that you are a member of or a supporter of the BNP.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: GUEST,biff
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 04:52 PM

I and the public know
What all school children learn
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.....Auden

more emphasis on positive example and less focus on negative correction coupled
with education in self esteem, healthy communication and living one's dream

but what do I know

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: GUEST,biff
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 05:09 PM

part of the problem is that no one, honest good people many, wants to admit to any seeds of hatred or discrimination within themselves. so the collective punishes the individual so harshly for what is in all. mother theresa once said that one day she looked in the mirror and saw the face of Hitler. so she chose the opposite.

it may be possible to get past knee jerk thought and emotional reactions that others, less kind, act out for us, but I for one, have never been able to be that pure. correction with forgiveness is one thing, but correction in a spirit of revenge just spreads more hurt around.
certain knowledge that we too share the beast of malice at times, whether we admit to it openly or not, can lead to more effective and humane controls on behavior, the first of which must always be wise example. I'm asking for correction with tolerance. A bigot is still a human being and the address to the problem must have the dignity to which it seeks to evoke. nowadays the cure seems to be as bad as the crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Lox
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 06:46 PM

The most important factor to remember in this thread is that we are talking about children.

Children don't think like us and they don't have the same understanding of the significance of racism as we do.

Some kids will push boundaries to be "cool".

They will understand from their parents and other authourity figures that the words "fuck" "shit" "wanker" etc are not acceptable in common discourse.

They will use them anyway among their friends to garner respect.

They will know from their parents that fighting is not acceptable behaviour, yet push boundaries by "proving" how "hard" they are.

etc etc etc.

If you are a kid and, from your childish perspective and understanding, you know that you are not allowed to call someone by a racist term of abuse, there is a chance that you may decide to use one because you are showing off how freely you break the rules to your peers, or just to fulfil some kind of private fantasy of how cool you re etc etc etc.

Kids are different.

Education is the answer as is understanding.

Hearing a child come out with racist opinions or abuse is heartbreaking.

Calling a child racist is like calling a puppy irresponsible.

You can prove your statement right, but it remains utterly farcical.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 06:53 PM

But nothing has changed since the 1950s when I was at school. The tougher gang would pick on the weaker individual for some insignificant reason such as having a brown school bag, nose picking or even suspected wanking in the lavatories, and - perish the thought, being studious. That's school life and basically tough on the weaker element. It existed at QE Boys Grammar School Barnet when I was there and probably still does!

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:34 PM

Bullying is not universal. You get classes and schools where there is a bullying culture, where it is seen as ineviable even though regrettable. And you get classes and schools where it is virtually non-existent.

I've never come across any study that has set out to explore the factors that come into play to explain these differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 09:41 AM

No - I realise that you were not implying that, Azizi but thanks for the clarification anyway. As to your question - I was refering to English of any colour although, to be honest, while that is the way I see it (as I have said many times, the beauty of being English is the cultural diversity) I am not sure if many other people do. I suppose if I am honest with myself I find my version of Englishness is, in part, a tollerance of other cultures and peoples. I am, perversely, intollerant of intollerance, regardless of the colour of it's skin, it's religion or it's ethic origins!

I often find myself hoisted by my own petard (oo-err, Missus) by my own intollerant attitude of envisaged stupidity and intollerance. Ah well. I can but apologise and try to do better but it is difficult to tollerate the intollerance of anything different that results in bullying!

Cheers

DeF

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Rowan
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:26 PM

more emphasis on positive example and less focus on negative correction coupled
with education in self esteem, healthy communication and living one's dream

Reading this caused me to realise that my earlier post had glossed over many assumptions that may not apply universally.

The primary school (Years K-6, roughly 5 years old to 11 or 12) my daughters went to had almost all the hallmarks of what I regard as a Community School (in Victoria I had taught in "alternative" high schools that were part of the State Govt Education Dept; there were ten such Community Schools), although NSW has not been regarded as supporting alternative schooling. There were some major aspects that might not apply as well elsewhere; the State and Commonwealth each had applicable Anti-Discrimination legislation, the school actively fostered a sense of community that embraced those who - having motor, developmental and other disabilities - were obviously different, and the total student population never exceeded 180. All these were very helpful in assisting the development of a sense of community among the students and the parents, as well as the staff.

The policy that behaving an a way that interfered with another's learning (we are describing a school policy) was unacceptable meant that the policy could be applied to any behaviour that had such an effect. The offending behaviour might be verbal, physical or exclusory (in the social dynamic sense, more often observed among girls rather than boys) and target physical or social attributes of the victim. Consideration of these determined the details of how incidents were dealt with. Calling the police would have been seen as an abrogation of professional responsibility in most circumstances and I can't recall it happening.

The High School (Years 7-12, students from 11-12 to 17-18 years old) my daughters now attend has an almost identical policy and tries to achieve the same sense of community with a student population of about 900. Dealing with adolescents rather than little kids, in a larger group means that things are more difficult to manage and I'm sure that there have been occasions where police have been involved but the same in loco parentis principle applies; it is the professionals' responsibility to manage the students' learning and police involvement is seen as a last resort.

From what I've observed of my daughters' peer groups, which extend through both govt high schools and three of the four private post-primary schools in the city (and I've coached and umpired sport for school-based teams in the city's competitions, as well as driven the school bus on occasion) the policy in my daughters' schools has been very effective. No doubt there have been infractions and hiccups which I've not become aware of but I'd have to say the policy and its implementation has been successful.

Probably this would be an argument for limiting school sizes so that there is a good chance all the students in a school can come to 'know' each other; this seems almost impossible to achieve in primary schools with 400 or so (where the grounding in "community" is really important) or high schools of 2000 or more.

End of rave.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:31 PM

I was bullied when I was in school. In my specific case I was targeted because I was a nerd, a Jew, and new to the community. In my case I think it built character, because I did not knuckle under, and I did not let the bullies (who were few, but memorable) limit my activities or range. I really don't know if it would have been better if they were somehow identified and 'treated'. I probably inherited the opinion that one has to learn to be tough in the world. There is a song component to this theme: In "A Boy Named Sue" the singer is intentionally given a name that will provoke bullies and a sink-or-swim mentality. The singer develops the attitude that he was made tough by his name, but he is not going to pass on the practice. I think I'm in the same camp. I don't approve of bullies, but life is not easy. One has to learn to stand up for oneself without becoming the same as one's schoolyard oppressors.

On the other hand, a culture of hazing is to be condemned and broken down, in my opinion. A racial component should be identified because it is quite natural for kids (and adults) who want to hurt to seize on pretty much anything to hand, and they could develop some damaging notions which some early instruction can save them from.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 06:51 PM

I think for every boy named Sue there are probably a hundred that don't make the grade but I take your point, robomatic. I think the key point is in your line One has to learn to stand up for oneself without becoming the same as one's schoolyard oppressors. - A far cry from the earlier suggestion of punching them on the nose! Maybe this IS what we need to do. Education for both the oppressors AND the oppressed? How would we go about this? An interesting concept certainly and I could see it working in some cases. I think 'horses for courses' may be the right attitude, adding further fuel against the people who think they can legislate for all eventualities?

Some good stuff going on here!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: mg
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 09:00 PM

the main education that is needed is for those in education who know about this and permit it, or are too dimwitted to see it right before their eyes or think it is someone else's problem. The kids will do it because it is hard-wired into them...they need adults to stop them and train them and educate them to not do this. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:38 AM

Every school in the UK has to have an anti-bullying policy which should cover every version of it, including "female relational" bullying with its tools of exclusion and so on. This should be made known to the parents as well as the children, and there may be reference to it in a home-school contract which parents should sign. Bullying based on hair colour, build, or the number of stripes on the trainers would be covered by this, because it is the bullying behaviour, not the characteristics of the bullied, which is the focus. The racism policy is additional to this, so you wouldn't expect to see it referred to in tht policy.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 05:34 AM

> it is the bullying behaviour, not the characteristics of the bullied, which is the focus

This well-worded line calls to mind a girl at school who was brutally bullied and hounded by a certain clique (not by me, I can promise you) in a concerted group effort that spilled over into going to her house and tormenting her on the phone. Her family, which included one other child, finally sold their home and moved to a different city where I can only hope that this nasty experience didn't repeat itself, though the mental scars would have made the journey with her. And there are always those character-types who can smell out vulnerability like sharks scenting blood, thus victimhood becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

What's so worrying is that there was simply NOTHING about her that would single her out as a focus of gang-contempt mentality: she was not ugly (rather pretty, in fact), did not belong to any ethnic or racial minority, had no physical or mental disabilities, wasn't stupid, didn't have a geeky personality or weird preferences...????? I still don't get it. Reminds me of Shirley Jackson's The Lottery.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:13 AM

As far as my experiences go, school 'anti-bullying' policies are not worth the paper/walls they are written on.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:24 AM

Pretty girls get bullied, Bonnie...often more than the not-so-pretty.

ALL children need is to be able to smell a sensitive child, and off they go...I know..I have 2 sensitive children to whom it happened. The scars in my daughter go very deep, even to this day at age 22.

We live in a bullying culture in this country, where it's cool to be bitchy, use the 'put downs', be as sarcastic and unpleasant as you can be...

Read your children's books, listen to the lyrics in the their music, watch their films, watch the soaps they so often are allowed to watch, where actors act out hours of bullying behaviour and depressing things happening...

Our children have never been so unhappy....ask UNICEF, who put British children at the top of their list of world wide children in trouble.

Schools, so very often, do NOT deal with this problem.

Don't send our kids to school at FOUR years old, for Goodness Sake...let them stay with their mothers, let them have a childhood....Be like Sweden where they don't start school until they're seven years old. Teach them, as Sweden does, to be kind, thoughtful, compassionate...and forget this "We MUST get them on the Edukason Ladder the moment they're out of nappies!" crap that has been poisoning this country and her children for almost two decades now.

There are children DYING out there, because of other children....and yet we deem it more important for them to do Scientific Math and get 15 GSCEs, 10 A Levels and several (usually useless) Degrees.

Look into WHY children are bullying, on a scale never seen before...and then, as adults linked to the Stinking Stressed Out Edukashon System, be brave enough to take a stand and say...ENOUGH!

Over-stressing our children with senseless, endless exams is as much a form of bullying as is one child being mean to another.

Take the stress off them and watch them learn to take the stress off each other.

Yet again:

"Education of the mind, without education of the soul, is no education at all" - Aristotle.

Let their souls breathe!

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 11:41 AM

My wife and I have had two daughters both of whom went to a local comprehensive school.

Both were aware of some bullying in the school and both found it dealt with promptly and clamped down on. There are loads of techniques for this and I have no idea which ones the school used. But the anti-bullying policy seemed to work well in that school.

ask UNICEF, who put British children at the top of their list of world wide children in trouble.

Well Lizzie I did ask UNICEF and that isn't what they say. It refers to 21 western countries only (not the world). And the UK came just below the USA by a smidgeon.

"Just over a year ago, this report by Unicef, the UN children's agency, revealed the results of a survey which showed that UK schoolchildren were the unhappiest of 21 countries surveyed in the Western world. The report blamed a lack of social cohesion and poor parenting for its findings".

See that Lizzie? Social Cohesion and poor parenting.

Very little to do with bullying and nothing at all to do with schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 12:17 PM

Er....thanks for that, but..if you read what I said above, I never said that UNICEF had put the British Edukashon System down as one of the reasons, Dave.

They *should* have though. The American one too.

It was, in my opinion, a HUGE oversight on UNICEF'S part, because even the teachers themselves said at their conference in Torquay last year that children are stressed to the hilt about exams and homework etc...recommending that SATs tests are abandoned...

Sadly, they haven't taken their own advice and *abandoned* them, which I don't understand, because ALL they have to do is refuse, en masse, to carry out any more bloody tests on our children, and that would be that...teachers back in charge, not stoopid politicians who probably have shares in the Corporate SATs R Us industry, along with every other bloomin' exam they're pouring down on our children and young people.

If you have unhappy, stressed out children, who are also surrounded by a bullying, unpleasant, dog eat dog culture (see things I mentioned above) then it's going to spill out into the school playground and beyond...

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 12:27 PM

It is a thread about bullying and you suggested people "asked" UNICEF who would back up your case.

The fact is they didn't.

And then you suggest UNICEF got it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:06 PM

Can I just point out that this is NOT a thread about bullying in general - Which we all know exists and should not - but about treating different kinds of bullying in different ways; the escalation of actions against racist bullying to authorities beyond the school and whether it is right or wrong to target a particular kind of bullying rather than looking at the whole issue.

There have been some very sensible comments about the issue and some general comments which are relevent, but let us not get hung up on the issue of general bullying, on which there has been countelss discussions. Please don't let us get into a circular and pointless discussion on who is more correct. We know that bullying goes on. We know that racism exists. We know that both are bad. Is it right to say that one is worse than the other?

Thanks

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:09 PM

Is it right to say that one is worse than the other?

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:46 PM

The bullying that is based on racism has some significant differences from bullying based on picking on a victim at random. That doesn't make it worse or better, but those differences are significant, they link it into things that happen in the outside world - political movements, headlines in the crap tabloids, harassment on the streets, race riots...

Intectious diseases aren't necessarily more unpleasant or life-threatening for the sufferers than physical accidents - but because they are infectious they demand a different kind of public response.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 05:20 PM

No, there is only bullying.

You cannot split it up into different categories.

Bullying is done to upset another person, to make them feel terrible about themselves, to hurt, wound, humiliate, belittlem divide, drive out..and to get others to feel the same way as the bully does.

It is horrible. It is unkind. It is morally and spiritually wrong. It is inexcusable. It is unforgivable, *unless* the bully themselves is able to feel genuine sorrow and regret for what they have done to someone else.


Believe you me, bullying is bullying is bullying.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 05:22 PM

Good point McG - There are differences and the crap tabloids love that. When Jimmy is taken to task for pulling Julies's red pigtails it does not sell papers. When Jimmy's school get the authorities involved because Jimmy has pulled Jumilla's hair braids the red tops are all over it like a rash! Surely if we treated the incidents evenly they would have less fuel for their fire?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 05:46 PM

I agree about the sentiment, Lizzie. Bullying is bullying etc. I am not sure if MOST sub-eleven year olds (little buggers though they can be!) do it to hurt, wound, humiliate etc. I know some do, some are very manipulative and some have much older heads on their shoulders but in my own experience the majority often do not realise what they are doing. Simply explaining it is often enough to stop the activity and, conversely, explaining that not all playground rivalry, gamesmanship and competition is about bullying. Sometimes wanting to win is simply that and, although no great sportsman myself, I have no issues with winners and losers as long as it is done to the proper rules.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 05:58 PM

Treating incidents evenly, which involves taking into account all these kinds of things, makes sense. Monitoring particular types of incident also makes sense, because it is important to know, using my analogy, if an infection is on the loose.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 03:18 AM

I think there is a difference between general bullying and racist bullying, reprehesible though both are. Racial bullying can be attributed directly to the attitudes that the bully has been taught by his or her parents and, as such, it is the parents who need to be made aware that this kind of attitude will not be tolerated.

OK, you could say that most of the problems/attitudes/outlooks that children bring to school are a result of their upbringing and that it is the difficult and thankless job of teachers to deal with these, but racism is a problem that is growing and is infectious and needs to be stamped out at its root - which is in the home.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 04:03 AM

'...but racism is a problem that is growing and is infectious and needs to be stamped out at its root - which is in the home.'

I'm not too sure about that, Leveller. Racial attitudes can just as easily be passed around among a peer group, adept at noticing and exploiting differences with which to 'attack' the 'outsider'. I am sure there are parents who would be horrified if they heard some of the attitudes expressed by their little darlings in the playground. In my days as Head Of Upper School in a comprehensive, I lost count of the parents who would say to me, "We'd hate you to think that was the sort of thing we've brought him/her up to say/do."

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 04:49 AM

Yes, I agree that happens, MtheGM, but I was thinking particularly of younger children. Hopefully, if they can be taught from an early age that racism is not acceptable it may just influence their attitudes as they get older. In my experience, young kids are much more tolerant of 'differences' - if they are allowed to be!

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:30 PM

Even so, Leveller, I suspect that within the school context, at ANY age, even the youngest, the peer group influence, which is there to hand at all times within the school, is likely to predominate over the parental — which isn't. Upbringing; education within the home: I am not decrying or denigrating them — simply, perhaps rather pessimistically, doubting whether they will really provide all that much of an answer to this insidious but, I fear, inescapable, problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:42 PM

I understand that there has been convincing research which demonstrates that peer pressure is liable to be much more powerful influence on how children behave than parental influence.

The good side to that is that, where the peer group is not racist, this could be serve to counter the impact of racist parents on their children.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Rowan
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 05:23 PM

Like McGrath, I have also read about convincing research which demonstrates that peer pressure is liable to be much more powerful influence on how children behave than parental influence.

Which Is why the teachers I worked with and the schools my daughters have attended put so much effort into ensuring the social dynamic that the peer group experienced at school was supporting of positive behaviour. Where the overlapping peer groups see themselves as part of a community that supports learning, caring, taking responsibility (and all the other things we like about people and their diversity) they are more likely to take on those behaviours.

Much easier to achieve in smaller schools than larger ones, where the pressures to manage huge groups can overwhelm even the most talented; teachers and parents, as well as students.

Now, back to the topic....

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 06:25 PM

Much easier to achieve in smaller schools than larger ones,

Yes imdeed - Makes one wonder why the trend is to combine schools into the large 'super-schools' that they keep pushing nowadays. Economic perhaps? Those bean counters have a lot to answer for. :-(

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 06:37 PM

Hurt people...

...hurt people...

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:38 PM

I'd be pretty certain that the fashion for bigger schools it is mainly about money. The excuse is always that bigger schools make it possible to have a wider range of subjects and teachers with expertise in those subjects.

It seems to me that is nonsense - there is nothing in that way that a big school can provide that a small school couldn't, now we have access to the expertise of the whole world via computers.

A few posts ago I pointed out that there are schools where bullying does not seem to happen, and speculated about the factors involved, I would be pretty certain that size of school would be a very significant factor. "Small is Beautiful" is a pretty good rule of thumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Schoolyard bullying
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 04:06 AM

"Even so, Leveller, I suspect that within the school context, at ANY age, even the youngest, the peer group influence, which is there to hand at all times within the school, is likely to predominate over the parental — which isn't."

I'll bow to your greater experience on that one, MtheGM.