BS: VFW story - sad irony

Subject: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 11:14 AM

Last night I heard a story on NPR about a VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars) post in Oregon that was working to be more welcoming to young veterans. (For those not familiar with the organization, the VFW tends to be associated with old men who are veterans of the previous generation's wars.) Other posts have closed because membership has declined. Click for story (transcript, as well as audio)

It was very strange (and acknowledged by those in the story), that older members somehow felt that younger vets didn't belong. From the story --

"Literally, we had a member that says, 'We don't want a bunch of crazies around,' " Holland says. "Head cases."

But Phillips laughs: "As if we're not."

The VFW started after the Spanish-American War, in 1899, and apparently, at least since WWII, each there have been those in each aging generation of vets who have somehow not felt that the next generation was worthy. WWII vets felt the Korean War was a "police action", and not a "real war", so somehow those vets were not welcome, and similar arguments about Vietnam vets.

You'd think that Vietnam vets, having had trouble with acceptance on their return would have sympathy for current vets, but some don't. This in an organization whose stated mission is 'to "honor the dead by helping the living" through veterans' service, community service, national security and a strong national defense.'

Perhaps it's those last couple of points in the mission that make it typically a conservative group, and this attracts some who are intrinsically less tolerant or more distrustful...??

This was disturbing enough -- I find myself lately rolling my eyes about the peculiarities of human beings: a flawed species with great potential -- but the final comment of the story hit me hard and brought tears (in the car, as well as again this morning):

"The guys are passing away, those old timers — very nice people, good history in VFW ... but we need to start putting our history in there. They need somebody to carry on the legacy for the kids that come after us."

In Tualatin, Post 3452 is counting on its new building, with Matthew Lembke's name on it, and new members, to keep it going.

As one veteran said: "I don't want to be the last one standing here."

I thought: "I would cheer to see the last veteran of a foreign war."

Now I realize that what he probably meant was "this is a valuable organization that should continue to serve veterans", but the words struck me literally.

I don't believe in a diety, and my grounding as an evolutionary biologist does not make me optimistic on the point, but as a human I pray that our species will somehow be able to outgrow the need to make war.

I think the tears are because I don't believe it will happen.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 11:30 AM

"deity", not "diety", but I hope you know what I meant anyway!

~ B in T

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 11:48 AM

It isn't just the US where you encounter attitudes like that. My father (who had been in the British Army in WW2, mostly in India and Palestine) thought about joining the New Zealand equivalent, the RSA (Returned Services Association) when we emigrated there. They made it very clear that the organization was for Kiwis, and English vets were not welcome.

In practice the RSA's main public activities were campaigns in support of the Vietnam War and getting NZ as far involved in it as possible, so my father's mild skepticism about it meant he wouldn't have fitted in anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: meself
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 12:01 PM

The Korean War always seemed (seems?) to get short shrift in Remembrance Day ceremonies in Canada, in my experience. And in the teaching of history. From what I've garnered over the years, it was every bit as nasty a conflict for all involved as the World Wars.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 03:20 PM

Hope against hope that this will be the last generation that will need this kind of organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 03:49 PM

I never joined the American Legion until about five years ago. I didn't feel welcome, and ditto for the rest of them. The Vietnam Veterans of America seemed okay, so I joined (briefly), but the group faded away.

I can't bring myself to join the Disabled American Veterans because I worked a couple blocks from their headquarters building and they had the rep of being the worst organization in the county to work for.

As long as there are wars and conflicts (and God knows I don't see any end to it!) there SHOULD be places where the vets can get together and "decompress". Unfortunately, far too many become inbred and unwelcoming and wonder why all there are no new members coming in. The DAV here, in a country where one in eight is a veteran, has nearly collapsed because of this.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 04:29 PM

The various organizations are, of course, only as strong as the membership, that that refers much more to the local chapters and posts than to the national organization. We have a strong DAV here in Albuquerque (disclosure - I'm a Service Officer), in the sense of assisting in VA claims, but several of the other organizations don't do much except socialize. The organization's leadership is almost entirely Vietnam veterans, but I deal a lot with Gulf War I and Gulf War II vets, and they are gradually coming onboard. One of the reasons for this, I think, is that younger individuals don't necessarily self-identify as veterans.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 06:09 PM

They also don't necessarily see themselves as disabled or feel the need to decompress -- been there!

Our DAV unit collapsed because it pissed off too many members when it refused to help a disabled vet and family with housing until his new job kicked in. (Other vet groups did step in and the guy's doing fine.)

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 06:24 PM

All I have to say is don't ever accept an invitation to play music at a VFW hall unless you love cigarette smoke... I've played two of them and the same at both... Won't do another... Yuck!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 10:47 PM

Yeah Bobert, but at the VVA you'd get smoke all right, but...never mind.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 11:01 PM

The war memorial in Washington DC that to me is the most affecting is not the Wall but the Korean War memorial. It is ghostly and eerie and haunting.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Charmion
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 11:45 AM

I joined the Royal Canadian Legion when I left the Canadian Forces and lasted only one year. At 25 years old, I was the only "ordinary" civilian member -- i.e., an ex-military person, not the child or spouse of a military person -- under the age of 40 at the largest branch in Kingston, Ontario, a small city with a large military presence.

Social events at the Legion consisted almost entirely of card parties, darts and bowling. Service activities focussed on seniors' issues and physical disabilities. I was an undergraduate who wanted to play the guitar and go dancing.

Now I'm 55, I should be a perfect candidate for the Legion, but I still don't like card parties, darts and bowling.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 12:51 PM

My Gammy (maternal grandmother) was a Woman of the VFW in our home town. I don't know what that means or why she was. She had a load of service pins/medals.

My Dad, served in WWII and did two stints in the Korean Police Action and 27 years in the US Army. But he never joined the VFW. I think it was because he wasn't from the town we lived in. It was my Mom's home town. I wonder if it there was some shunning from the membership which prevented his joining or did he just want to leave all associations with the military far behind?

This is a sad story.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 05:47 PM

Mcgrath -- that's the bottom line, for me.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Slag
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 06:28 PM

So why shouldn't the VFW also reflect the "Generation Gap"? This happens, congenitally, to every generation and to the cultural institutions of each. Be it the "Good Ol' Boys" or the corporate leadership, it always "them young whippersnappers" what's always causing trouble. Time and the nearing end tends to settle one in their mind and heart that their perspective is the right perspective.

Part of this is the wisdom that comes from observing the "tried and true" and the decrepit but "hasty" generalization that if one hasn't walked the same number of miles in the other person's shoes, they can't know what it's really like. They forget that they were the cocky young men of their day.

I'm a Viet Nam era vet and a disabled vet at that. I've never sought out any organization connected with either condition nor will I (although I have been noted to have donated to the DAV from time to time). I love my country. I was proud to serve. I enjoyed the work I did but I hated the military. It's beyond irony that one must give up freedom to defend freedom but it seems that this is the way it must be. By the time I finished Basic I really had a question as to who was the real enemy.

For the Old Timers the goal and the way were crystal clear. WWII (and WWI, in similar perception) was a fight to save country, family and freedom. No question and no price to high to pay.

Since then, in what seems to me, an ever increasing downward spiral into murky politics, unclear goals and motives, obvious appeals to prejudice and pride (not to mention party) have left many of the veterans since the Korean War, less than enthusiastic about polishing their medals and recounting old war stories.

I can't begrudge the Old Timers their organizations. God bless their honorable defense of this great country. I only wish things were so clear today.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:04 PM

Slag, what's interesting in what you say is that the veterans' organization "establishment" is now the Vietnam vets, and they turn others off by their constant harping on how unappreciated they were when they came home and how the VA didn't give them all $5000 a month and a solid gold Cadillac.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 10:29 PM

If the American Legion post here hadn't GIVEN the Library a flagpole I would never have joined. I've been to maybe four meetings in six years...too busy with other things, usually.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 12:13 PM

I joined the Royal Canadian Legion before I left the regulars. I was in rural Manitoba where it made sense socially. I transferred to the reserve and returned to my native Ottawa to resume my education. The most convenient branch of the RCL was that where my father had been a member some 40 years earlier. Some of the same people were still there. I was one of the few still serving, albeit part-time, among the membership. As I got to know them I discovered why my father had left that branch: some of the people who were asses then were still asses, and there was a crop of bigots and other varieties of ignoramuses who were accretions on the membership. This was when the Legion was still making itself look bad over the issue of turbans for Sikh members of the CF and RCMP. Not only wouldn't they get it, getting it was beyond them. I could tell they were unlikely to change and abandoned them as had my father.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Slag
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 03:56 PM

Yes Artbrooks. The Vietnam vets were /are under appreciated. They did not make the policies that produced the conflict. They didn't make the policies that perpetuated the conflict. The served at their country's behest and pretty much got a slap in the face for their efforts. They have something to complain about.

HOWEVER! No one likes a complainer. The smart course of ACTION is to educate the public to the fact that regardless of whatever view they hold of the Vietnam conflict, these men and women SERVED and most served HONORABLY. The vet can't overlook the fact that, they too, are members of the public. Each individual needs to get over himself or herself and SHOW honor and respect to their fellow vet. If they do this, the public will notice and follow suit.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 04:31 PM

Slag, I'm sorry but I disagree. There was the occasional comment from a jerk, but Vietnam vets got a better deal on most VA benefits than Korean War or post-Korea vets did. Granted that they generally did not get a "welcome home" parade, but then neither did most WW2 or Korea vets. Many of them (but certainly not most) somehow came back with a sense of entitlement, perhaps because they thought of themselves as victims of the very unpopularity of that conflict. {Art Brooks, Americal Division, Da Nang and points west, 1971-1972.}

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: Slag
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 08:28 PM

Yes, I see your point and you are right to that extent. I wasn't talking about renumeration or "bennys". Indeed the GI bill was very good to me and others I know. It is just on the point of respect and dignity that I was trying to make my point. In the most general sense, everyone except those who prove otherwise, deserve at least the mutual respect of others who comport themselves honorably. The more honorable one's past, the more respect should be shown to them. Having served one's nation honorably deserves a modicum of additional regard from all, including their peers. That 's all.

Subject: RE: BS: VFW story - sad irony
From: MarkS
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 10:02 AM

I cannot complain about veterans treatment. Got a masters degree through the GI bill, and later in life, when I came to know about it, applied for and got a small pension from the VA. It has also opened up treatment at my local VA hospital (Wilmington, DE) and no complaints there.

Cannot claim any interest in the VFW or Legion though. Try to be as active as I can in my Division Association - guess I identify with those guys more than the other folks in the other groups.

Mark

ps: Let me know more about the $ 5000 per month and the solid gold Cadillac though.