BS: shooting at Texas army base

Subject: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: open mike
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 06:38 PM

So far 12 dead, 31 wounded at Ft. Hood, TX.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/11/05/texas-san-antonio.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091105/ts_nm/us_texas_shooting
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5A454F20091105

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: sing4peace
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 06:45 PM

The massacre at Ft. Hood in Texas is on my mind and heavy in my heart. To all victims and their families - prayers for healing and courage as the questions emerge. Guide us all to bring light into the darkness.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 06:56 PM

Oh my god.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 07:01 PM

First reports claim the shooter is an army psychiatrist. A terrorist attack? Or sheer bedlam?

Prayers for those injured and killed and their families.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Alice
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 07:12 PM

I've been hearing the news updates off and on this afternoon since the event happened.

Now hearing about who the shooter was.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 07:28 PM

I read he specialised in treating others with PTSD. This is terrible. I despair of a world which teaches killing as a way to attain peace. May the victims and their families, including his, find some way through this.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: open mike
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 07:30 PM

Major Malik Nadal Hasan, a psychiatrist, was the suspected/accused shooter.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33678801/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
he also died at the scene.
the death toll has now risen to 13

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 07:48 PM

......geeziz...............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: skipy
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 07:53 PM

Awful, my thoughts to the famillies & those who saw this happen

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 08:17 PM

"Major Malik Nadal Hasan"?

Well, this will certainly give certain people in the military or the U.S. Congress the excuse they've been looking for to target investigations on any American with a Moslem name. I hope not but it's certainly happened before.

Very sad.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 08:41 PM

He was being deployed again and had been working with PTSD troopThere is so much yet to learn and all but considering the number of PTSD victims of these two "wars" and the 75 suicides at Hood since '03.........My advice would be to get the fuck out!

Afghanistan is another VietNam and its obvious we haven't learned jack shit. Jesus Christ.........There's a general demanding more troops with which he can "win" and has no idea what a win would look like nor how long it might take or if he might not need even more after the next batch. These poor guys are being killed and maimed daily for no reason and General "Ghost of Westmoreland" thinks he can beat a country at their own game on their own soil.........

HELLO??? Doesn't this sound even vaguely familiar?


What this thing needs to point up is that we need to get out!

Period.

Its a quagmire which will sink this country.


Get out.......Get out now.............

This is the change I voted for...........get out......


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:09 PM

I have to agree with Spaw. I fear that the military of today is thinking in terms best used during WW2. That you win a war by gaining ground and holding it. And it's not that kind of war.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: open mike
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:14 PM

yes -- the person who i heard this news from added his description..the shooter had a (pardon the language)
"raghead name" which does add a "terrorism" element
to this incident...Yes, he was an american soldier, but
was he an american citizen? Perhaps his work for 6 years
at an army medical hospital had exposed him to horrors
he was unable to overcome...Walter Reed has had scandals
about treatment of injured and disabled soldiers from
the mid-east wars.

One journalist commented that the army used to employ 1
psychiatrist/psycholoigist for each 350 soldiers...
now it is more like 700 to one...

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:21 PM

"the shooter had a (pardon the language)..."

Why even USE that word? It is easy to refer to the man without resorting to such words...

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:21 PM

Not that it should matter, but he was an American citizen, born in Virginia of parents originally from Jordan and was described as a devout Muslim. ON MSNBC, his cousin said he didn't like shooting guns, didn't even like going to the shooting range and had come to despise and oppose the war.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:50 PM

FORT HOOD, Texas (AP) -- A military mental health doctor facing deployment overseas opened fire at the Fort Hood Army post on Thursday, setting off on a rampage that killed 12 people and left 31 wounded, Army officials said.

Authorities said immediately after the shootings that they had killed the suspected shooter, but later in the evening they recanted and said that he was alive and in stable condition at a hospital, watched by a guard.

"His death is not imminent," said Lt. Gen. Bob Cone at Fort Hood. He offered little explanation for the mistake, other than to say there was confusion at the hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:56 PM

"...he was an American citizen, born in Virginia of parents originally from Jordan and was described as a devout Muslim."

                Yes, religion is a very bad thing!

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:58 PM

From the AP:

...Retired Army Col. Terry Lee told Fox News that he worked with Hasan, who had hoped Obama would pull troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq. Lee said Hasan got into frequent arguments with others in the military who supported the wars, and had tried hard to prevent his pending deployment.

Hasan was single with no children. He was born in Virginia and graduated from Virginia Tech University, where he was a member of the ROTC and earned a bachelor's degree in biochemistry in 1997. He received his medical degree from the military's Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md., in 2001. He did his internship, residency and a fellowship at Walter Reed.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: michaelr
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:08 PM

Another thread about events that are in the news. Didn't Joe just talk about that recently? What the heck is the point?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: open mike
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:16 PM

the point is..that there are several threads here,
(current threads are about pedophilia, election,
polygamist colony raid, all topics from the news)
in the area designed for us all to share information,
feelings, opinions, discussion about things non-musical.

apparently 15 or so people felt ok about posting here
either news they had or reactions to the news...

I think this list provides a service to us in that way..
allowing us to be able to interact with others and
share opinions...and sentiments, and insights, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:49 PM

If the guy didn't want to go to Iraq or Afghanistan why didn't he just shoot off his big toe like the slackers used to do?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Janie
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:55 PM

A tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:38 AM

"I despair of a world which teaches killing as a way to attain peace. "


Got it in one, kat. I agree 100%.

This, along with our 5 soldiers from the UK killed by an Afghan policeman, is a huge wake up call for our so called leaders.

It is way overdue that this senseless situation was brought to an end.

I cannot even go there, starting to think how their families must all be feeling...terrible...

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:54 AM

"ON MSNBC, his cousin said he didn't like shooting guns, didn't even like going to the shooting range and had come to despise and oppose the war."

So, I have to ask - WTF was he in the army?

And his religion has f**k-all to do with this - people from all religions and NO RELIGION kill other people. It's not a religious thing, it's a people thing.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: bubblyrat
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:13 AM

Yes,but the logic of the implication is unavoidable ! I mean,what do you do when you have several devout Muslim soldiers in your team,and you announce that you are going to bomb Mecca ?? Ask them to help you to plan the Operation ?? Get real !! I mean,devout Muslims are allowed to join the US Army ??? I just CANNOT believe it !!Where are they now ??----in the Pentagon? Fort Knox? Running missile silos ? In charge of chemical weapons ? It's frightening. I mean REALLY frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:27 AM

It's about as hypothetical as planning to flatten Jerusalem or Rome, the fact you get so excited and apparently upset is frightening.

Why wouldn't there be room for any and all religion in your army?

Some reports have it he was hassled about his religion and finally snapped, consider that in the light of your own attitude. Or maybe wait until more is known about the what and why of the whole affair.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:28 AM

Ah,he is a devout Muslim about to be sent out to a Muslim country to kill Muslims,what do you expect ?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:32 AM

Devout?????? I'm a devout dulce de leche and bife eater!!

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 09:38 AM

Never fear, we'll be hearing much more about what may have motivated Major Malik Nadal Hasan to open fire and kill and wound so many soldiers at Fort Hood. However, I have my doubts how much we'll learn about his experience in the army as a devout Muslem, and whatever harassment he received from other soldiers for his name, faith and beliefs. Nothing he experienced in my opinion justified his murderous actions but it could help explain what drove him to commit them.

Perhaps it was the final "F##K you!" that drove him over the edge. We might think about "that" before we post to threads such as this.

It is ironic that he served his residency at Walter Reed hospital counseling trauma victims from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 09:56 AM

Tragic. On so many levels.
RIP

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 09:59 AM

I agree Sinsull .... a human tragedy at all levels

RIP

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 09:59 AM

"Some reports have it he was hassled about his religion and finally snapped,..."

                   Too bad he didn't get into some kind of a 12 step program and recover.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 10:03 AM

"At least six months ago, Hasan came to the attention of law enforcement officials because of Internet postings about suicide bombings and other threats, including posts that equated suicide bombers to soldiers who throw themselves on a grenade to save the lives of their comrades.

Investigators had not determined for certain whether Hasan was the author of the posting, and a formal investigation had not been opened before the shooting, said law enforcement officials who spoke to The AP on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to discuss the case.

The FBI, local police and other agencies searched Hasan's apartment Thursday night after evacuating the complex in Killeen, said city spokeswoman Hilary Shine. She referred questions about what was found to the FBI. The FBI in Dallas referred questions to a spokesman who was not immediately available early Friday morning."


What were they waiting for? Wouldn't Homeland Security jump on htreats like these?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Amos
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:03 AM

Suppose, then, that the stress on him had to do with his being, by his own nature, a pacifistic sort and a Muslim. And, in complete contradiction to these ways of being, about to be shipped off to Iraq where his fellow Americans are essentially supporting war-like action against fellow believers. It is understandable that this conflict in goals could cause a lot of stress, such that waking up in themorning could be an awful thing each day.

But if this guy was a trained psychiatrist, how do you account for his completely insane reaction to the stress? Either psychiatry as he was trained in it is a completely bogus subject, which is possible, or something else is going on. If he had a bunch of false data from his psychiatric training, it is possible that just made things worse. Of course, I am operating on the supposition that seeing things clearly, with understanding, reduces stress, which I take as a truism.

A

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Arkie
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:03 AM

This is indeed a tragedy and a complicated one. As a psychiatrist I would doubt he would be on a battlefield or behind a gun shooting at a fellow Muslem. But Sunnis kill Shites and vice versa so it is not unheard of for a Muslem to kill another Muslem. I suspect this is being done on a regular basis in Afghanistan. Hasan is not the first person about to be deployed to go off the deep end. War has terrible consequences on the home front as well as the battlefield.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:22 AM

We have devout muslims in the British Army.
I know some.
They serve in Afghanistan.
So far, no problems.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:41 AM

We had devout Catholics, I am sure, who had no problem going to war and killing other Catholics who served under Hitler. I am sure there were other Protestants, too. Just being a Muslim makes him no different than any one else who is trained to go kill. However, like some conscientious objectors, he may have been very conflicted about being sent there and, from what I read, he was doing everything he could, according to the rules, to keep form being sent over.

Finally, as he specialized in treating those with PTSD, one might assume he is not a super-human and may have just been so horrified at what he heard, every day at work, and tried to help others through such horrors, that he snapped. It is possible, folks. Healers have a very fine line to walk to keep the maladies of their clients from overwhelming them; some are more able to do so than others. It is a profound tragedy that he apparently was not one of those.

May Peace Profound prevail,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:56 AM

Didn't something similar happen in a US army Camp in Saudi or Iraq
on one of the very first days of the War, possibly a Lieutenant, or a doctor ?
Sorry, I forget the details but do remember a little of the initial news reports at that time.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:04 PM

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM

The shooter is in fact still alive, but his death was initially reported in the confusion. And another person has died, bringing the death toll to 13.

There are lots of jobs in the military branches that are filled by people who are not soldiers. This man was apparently one of them. He snapped, and his religion shouldn't be a factor. But I'm sure some people will make it one.

The news yesterday could say very little because the army folks kept a lid on most of it. The reporters around Scott and White (in Temple, east of Killeen by about 40 miles) weren't able to get much more information.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM

Why discuss his religion or his training as a psychiatrist in the context of his killing spree? He was born in Virginia we have learned.

Wolfgang (not serious)

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:23 PM

Let's get ALL of the Muslims out of the army. ALL armies. Then in rapid order we can remove the Christians, Jews, Buddists, Hindus, Athiests, and followers of the Flying Spagetti Monster. Then we'll be left without anyone in our armies, navy, air forces and marines.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:39 PM

A gunman has reportly shot 8 people from a highrise in Orlando Fla.

All hell is breaking loose.

we live in a violent society

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:39 PM

Having him alive will certainly help all involved to find out a great deal more about why this happened.

My initial response:

If he had no wife or children he was definitely unsupported in terms of stress management with no intimates monitoring his mental health.

Something about the army's management of psychiatric personnel is seriously lacking: poor screening, little followup on poor evaluations of performance, unwillingness to consider the efficacy of having a Muslim psychiatrist involved in helping soldiers in a war zone where the Muslim religion is a major issue...

So sorry this has happened. My heart goes out to those involved.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Amos
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:45 PM

"Cone said wounded first responder Sgt. Kimberly Munley, who exchanged gunfire with Hasan and managed to shoot him four times despite being shot herself, put a stop to the carnage with her quick thinking and willingness to go head-to-head with the gun-wielding officer.

"She was quite effective, one of our most impressive young policemen," Cone said. "She walked up and basically engaged him. I think, certainly, this could've been far worse."

Cone said Munley spent Thursday night calling her fellow co-workers from her hospital bed to make sure everyone was OK.

Cone did not want to comment on Hasan today but said, "I'm not surprised. ... I think it'll come out as we dig into this ... what the situation is."

Hasan, who was reportedly upset about an upcoming deployment to Iraq, had been disciplined in the past for preaching to his patients about his Muslim faith. "

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: open mike
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:21 PM

a link recently sent to me -- "Speaking of Faith"
http://blog.speakingoffaith.org/post/235062164/fort-hood-has-enough-victims-already

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: bobad
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:25 PM

"Why discuss his religion or his training as a psychiatrist in the context of his killing spree?"

An indication that religion may be implicated in his motivation:

"Soldiers who witnessed the rampage reported that the gunman shouted "Allahu Akbar!" - an Arabic phrase for "God is great!" - before opening fire, said Lt. Gen. Robert Cone, the base commander. He said officials had not yet confirmed that Hasan made the comment before the shooting spree."

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:31 PM

IMHO .... he just cracked.

It could happen to anyone, of any religeon, of any race, of any rank, of any position held in the military.

The news media, and society as a whole just wants to find some dramatic issue such as race in this tragic incident ... and in doing so just makes the whole thing even more tragic.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: open mike
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:34 PM

terrible and sad....
and now Orlando,too.
I think that incident
should have a seperate
thread...

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:43 PM

I should also add ...

What was that quote from some current general in the U.S. army ... "the military is a war, American society isn't'

How long can the personnel serving in the military keep on going with 2 wars and 2 wars going on for such a long, long time.

The infrastructure is not in place or how can any infrastructure sustain the mental damage and wear that is going on in the minds of these people.

Forget religion ... the reasoning can be found written on the walls of every military base found in the U.S. and in Irag and the Afghani ... and more so at every military hospital in Germany and the U.S.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:13 PM

"Forget religion ..."

          How can you do that when it causes so many problems?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: heric
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:18 PM

>>Finally, as he specialized in treating those with PTSD, one might assume he is not a super-human and may have just been so horrified at what he heard, every day at work, and tried to help others through such horrors, that he snapped.<<

That's what I was going to say, kat. There may be a causal relationship between what he heard in privileged conversations day after day, from emotionally traumatized people, and with ethnic implications presumably arising with great frequency.

It brings to mind Gore Vidal's book Hollywood, (partially) about the power of propaganda to demonize almost instantaneously, the Germans, even to some extent by first and second generation (presumably confused and conflicted) German-Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: skarpi
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:50 PM

this man is a muslim ? not good for them is it ? I mean
muslim in USA .

sad thing what happen there .

kv Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: mg
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:58 PM

There are lots of jobs in the military branches that are filled by people who are not soldiers. This man was apparently one of them. -------

What? Unless we are specifically talking about civilian jobs, a soldier is a soldier, regardless of her MOS or classification or job duties. Of course a psychiatrist is a soldier if he or she is in the military, as is a dentist, cook or whatever. mg

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:00 PM

One thing about it is a relief.

If he had done this while Bush and Cheney were in the White House, they'd be massing troops along the Iranian border by tomorrow morning. What a perfect excuse!

It's a very sad thing to happen, but I reckon it owes more to mental stress than religious fervour.

Does anyone really think that a Muslim attached the US forces HASN'T been checked up, down, and sideways?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:47 PM

While this horrific act is beyond comprehension it is a wonder that something similar hasn't happened until yesterday...

The 2 Bush wars are ill-thought out and put service people in harms way on a daily basis... That is alot of stress on our military... More than what our militaries have had to deal with in previous wars... Then throw in stop-loss and you have one heck of alot of folks stressed to the max... Now throw in ther front line clinicans (couselors, psycologists, psychiatrist, etc) who are having to deal with one heck of a load of very messed up people and things are getting internalized... Like I said, it's a wonder that it took this long... There are other folks out there like this guy who are walking mentally wounded who are trying to hang in there while having to heap more and more stuff into their tummies...

This, of course, is no excuse but this shotting should be taken as a warning that fighting these two wars of choice is taking a vast toll on our military...

I say, get the heck out... And don't start anymore of these stupid wars of choice...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 08:48 PM

What appalls me is that the Army is still so full of (your favorite derogatory word here) that members like Major Malik Nadal Hasan just get passed along as ticking time bombs. So what idiot decided the solution was to send him to Afghanistan?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:06 PM

Unlikely that other soldiers' post traumatic stress affected him. Army psychiatrists mainly give out medication and usually do very little listening to soldiers talk about traumas of war because soldiers don't easily open up in these short interviews with army psychiatrists unless they are angling for disability or discharge.

Soldiers who see one or more tours are extremely tough individuals and rarely reveal the impact of war horrors to anyone. It takes most soldiers a long time to open up about war horrors and most do it in groups with other soldiers whom they trust more than shrinks if they do it at all.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: bankley
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 06:32 AM

I wonder if his firearms had Muslim names,
like Colt, Browning, Smith&Wesson, Winchester, Iver&Johnson etc...

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 08:08 AM

No, they probably had Isreali names like Uzi, Galil, Tavor,
Negev, and Jericho.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 11:21 AM

Here's the problem. Islam creates a philosophical or religious opening for violence as does any other religion. The rationale becomes heightened when someone who Interprets this religion in this manner goes over the edge.

There is a larger picture in that today in the US, we enable this type of behavior by supporting a war machine that dehumanizes people. Connect the dots.

As long as killing and wars go on, we will continue to have these problems.

The solution is to stop glorifying war and using religion to justify the taking of lives.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 12:21 PM

I (the wizard of Obvious) have a theory...


As for he mental health issues in the military, it is the same for us all.

It is a matter of diet. Not physical food but a food for thought and emotions.

The food for destructive thought is as sequential as denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptence when dealing with death.
My theory is S+F2xH=GS   Suspicion plus repeated fear times hate equals great suffering

All people are curious. The dark side of curiosity is suspicion.
When suspicion is fed enough lies, slandor and negative speculation it ferments into FEAR. Fear can be encouraged to grow with constant repetition until it bears a fruit called HATE. Eat enough hate and you have the recipe for great suffering.

Virtually anyone can fall down the slippery slpe of the dark side of fear. When this ultimately ends with running amok and becomeing the latest gunman to go beserk and indiscriminatly murdering people, we all to often lay the blame on a drug induced state, mental illness or a violent religious fervor.

S+FxH=GS   Suspicion plus fear times hate equals great suffering

It is true for everyone you know. It matters not if the person is a psychiatrist or a religious figure or a law enforcement officer or even a young innocent child.

By the time a person has reached the fear stage the mental health of the person is already in jeopardy. When it reaches the hate stage the prognosis is poor.

The best time to defuse this cycle of mental destruction is between suspicion and fear.

Sadly people of dubious power reinforce suspicion and fear for their own benefit because it has always proven to be an effective way to modify a person's behavior.







On another note...Why We Fight is a documentary about the ceaseless wars that the US has been fighting since WWII either by proxy or by direct deployment of troops. On the positve side lots of money is made by war profiteers and weapon companies. On the dark side it divides and destroys the psyche of the nation as well as the individual.

Fighting other people's civil wars or defending our interest in oil or other commodities is the worst reason for war ever devised in our national policy making institutions. Thank the Rand Corporation and the rest of the Military Industrial Congressional Complex.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 01:31 PM

Donuel has made some powerful points about the reality of out basic vulnerabilities ...we simply can't easily predict who will 'break' under various stresses.

What will be interesting is seeing which band-aids they will choose to apply to the situation....

It reminds me of the Health Care debate... no one is willing to apply, vote for, fund...or even discuss... ALL of the very basic issues, causes and possible cures. Every theoretical approach offends someone, costs too much, or just is beyond practical application.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:16 PM

Aside from the obvious that war IS INSANE... I imagine some of his biggest stressors were: being a minority in the army and putting up with what minority officers have to contend with...and being raised muslim and trying to fit into American culture. He couldnt' find a wife and had no family left. Forty years old and probably been in trouble for sexual harrassment at some point because the muslim upbringing doesn't prepare its men for American culture but for muslim culture. Muslim men are ill equipped to fit into American society even if they are American born. Add being muslim and having to work for americans bent on destroying his religious compatriots all over the world and the cognitive dissonance was too much for him.   

I'm losing faith in the president I voted for because he isn't stopping THE INSANITY.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:52 PM

"...he isn't stopping THE INSANITY."

*sigh*...INSANITY will always be with us. I take it you mean he is not trying to withdraw us (the US) from participation. I am not sure how we just 'quit'. Does the phrase "tiger by the tail" ring any bells?
I suspect that Obama knows very well from the lessons of Viet Nam and Iraq and the Russians experience in Afghanistan that this is not a conventional 'war' like countries used to fight, where one could usually identify the enemy and see troop movements...etc. We are well equipped to fight one of those. But fighting guerrilla tactics against 'part' of a populace when one can't even easily identify the 'enemy' if they walk in front of you, and when those who are NOT shooting at you don't really like you, is never easy.
Obama knows this...and 'the enemy' knows he knows this, and THEY are willing to suffer civilian casualties in order to place blame for them ON us. Yet, if we do withdraw, the Taliban/Al Quaida combination will tear what peaceful areas there are apart, and we will have TWO out-of-control countries sheltering terrorists in the area. Then we will be totally in a position of "wait till someone tries something, then bomb the hell out of whoever we suspect!". Who knows....that may be better than just throwing $$$$ and lives at them like a gigantic game of "whack-a-mole".

If Obama does withdraw, something we don't like will happen, and he will be blamed for that, just as he is being criticized now for NOT withdrawing. It's hard to decide, huh? Cheaper to withdraw maybe...and will save 'some' lives, though I suspect not IN Afghanistan!

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:01 PM

...and remember, a US administration got us into both Iraq and Afghanistan, even if those decisions are now widely discredited and awkward. 'We' are responsible, even with a new administration working.

Did you hear Obama say (paraphrased) "If you leave us a big mess to mop up, don't be criticizing how we hold the mop!"

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:22 PM

Truthfully Bill, I don't really care how he holds the mop as long as he starts mopping like hell. (;<))

Right now we seem to be just mixing the water and possibly considering another layer of dirt before we start the clean up..............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:36 PM

Afghanistan is particularly tough, because Bush got all those other countries in there with the US. If the US leaves, it's abandoning its allies, and the US started the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:15 PM

All else aside, can anyone explain how anyone with two handguns can manage to shoot 40-odd people?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:39 PM

sure, Dick.... he stands where there is a line of people who are NOT armed, and fires rapidly, changing clips maybe once. If he picks the right place to position himself, he could shoot anyone trying to rush him for a minute or so. Many people who are being shot at try to get away first, not charge AT a guy with a gun. As it is, he only had about 2-3 minutes.
Maybe they will explain more how he actually did it soon.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:45 PM

Well... f*** me! Just picked this off the wire at Yahoo...

Obama devoted his weekly radio address to the Fort Hood shootings, which he called "a crime against our nation."

"It is an act of violence that would have been heartbreaking had it occurred anyplace in America. It is a crime that would have horrified us had its victims been Americans of any background. But it's all the more heartbreaking and all the more despicable because of the place where it occurred and the patriots who were its victims," Obama said.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:48 PM

"Muslim men are ill equipped to fit into American society even if they are American born."

I know two Muslim men- one of them quite well - and I don't see that at all. Both of them are gregarious people who love fun and other people. One of them has been married twice, both times to native-born American women; the other is single but sends money home (I'm not sure where "home" is.)

Come to think of it he reminds me quite a bit of Chinese men I have known in Oregon. As well as Filipino men- in Juneau a great many Filipinos send money home.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:51 PM

Dick...from a news site: "The gunman, with two guns including a semi-automatic weapon, opened fire apparently without warning ...." we're lucky it was only 40.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:12 PM

Dick : Two Glock 19's could easily fire 76 rounds in the time stated in the hands of an ameteur.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:15 PM

oops... 64 rounds. Saturday night.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:23 PM

Saturday Night specially early!

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:25 PM

The gunman shouted "Allah Akbar" before opening fire, and had in the past praised suicide bombers.

The liberal media are still at a loss as to what his motives were...??

If only we had another Sherlock Holmes.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:43 PM

Well yeah guestguest, he was fucked up in the head, but. . . . I think we're trying to perceive, from a distance, the essence of his fuckedupedness.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:47 PM

Are they saying that's what he had, two Glocks?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:51 PM

Nope. I wasn't there.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:57 PM

very recent article quoting one of those who responded

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: pdq
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 06:12 PM

At least one source said that the Fort Hood perp used the FN 5.7, a 5.7 mm handgun made by Herstal in Belgium.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 07:35 PM

If someone was shooting at me I'm not too sure I'd have any clear notion of anything they might be shouting.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:06 PM

I'm with you McGrath. I doubt I'd hear anything, as I'd be heading in the opposite direction at great speed.

I remember the story of two infantrymen sent out into No-Man's Land on a WW1 recce mission. One of them snagged a tripwire, and the Germans opened fire with rifles.

When they'd recovered their breath, back in their own trench, Charlie said to Mick "Did you hear that shot crack past our ears?"

"Yes" said Mick, "Twice! Once when it passed us, and again when I passed IT."

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:08 PM

Well, it is looking more and more as if there is more than a psychological breakdown at work in the case of the Fort Hood shooting. While not definitely proved to be a cause, the possibility of a religious cum terrorist attack seems more likely.

"Officials: U.S. Aware of Hasan Efforts to Contact al Qaeda"

"Army Major in Fort Hood Massacre Used 'Electronic Means' to Connect with Terrorists"

/abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood-shooter-contact-al-qaeda-terrorists-officials/story?id=9030873

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:17 PM

**personal history and recent frustration plus superimposed religious overlay plus job stress**

*shrug* still no way to predict who will do it next.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:25 PM

Re the remark about Muslim men, how about women?
Two Muslim women are included in an article about local young 'movers and shakers' in "Avenue," a slick magazine devoted to Calgary.

One is a crack lawyer, Counsel, Alberta Utilities Commission. She also is a board member of the Ismaili Regional Conciliation and Arbitration Board for the Praries, and a mentor for immigrants at the University of Calgary and elsewhere.

The other, an immigrant from Yemen, is director and co-founder of Foundry Creative, a successful graphics company that designs company annual reports, packaging, and outlines strategies for successful marketing. She also is active in charitable work such as housing for people with learning disabilities, a YWCA house for women in crisis, and is active with Immigrant Services Calgary.

At the risk of being called sexist, I will add thet both women are beauties.

Calgary has a large and varied Muslim population, active in all fields from professional to blue-collar. The city is over 1/5 immigrant and essentially untouched by racial or religious problems.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: mg
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:50 PM

I don't get why there was not a faster military response..mp or something...it was a civilian policewoman who brought him down I think..you have to be prepared for this kind of thing..certainly from outsiders...on a post...mg

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:56 PM

In 1991, a man killed 23 and wounded 20 at a Luby's cafeteria in Killeen before killing himself. Don't know what weapon(s) he had.

The weapon(s) used by Maj. Hasan have not been named by investigators. The list of wounded now 42, but some may not have been shot.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/08/texas.lubys.shooting.survivor/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: chazkratz
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 07:12 PM

Donuel was the first in this thread to use the word "amok"--a Filipino word used to describe
a Moro (Filipino Muslim) who, angered and shamed by his dealings with Christian Filipinos , shaves his head and eyebrows, dresses in white, perhaps gets blessed by an imam, grabs a weapon--usually a machete--and kills as many Christians as he can before being killed himself, to spend eternity in heaven served by the Christians he has killed. I cannot comment on the validity of this belief, having met no Muslim Filipinos during my time there in the Peace Corps and never having heard of an actual example of the behavior (except for a case when two Christian Filipino farmers, brothers who had boarded a train and were confronted by a conductor who asked for their tickets and told them they would be put off the train when they were unable to produce them, used their machetes to hack up the conductor and as many of the other occupants of the train car as they could before being killed themselves. I also have no idea if the practice, if it really exists/existed in the Philippines, exists in any other areas where Muslims and non-Muslims live in close proximity, or if there is anything in general Islamic culture which might explain it. But Hasan's action does sound eerily like "running amok" in that sense, complete with the
anger and shame causing treatment Dr. Hasan received at the hands of the Army.

Charles

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:07 PM

So at this point Maj. Hasan is communicating with medical staff.

He is clearly identified as the one who shot and killed 13 soldiers and civilians, and wounded another 40 or so.

He had a record of objecting vehemently to our role in Iraq and Afghanistan.

He purchased at least one of his weapons at a local gun shop a month or so ago.

Some of his conversations with his former Iman from the DC area, who fled the States after 9/11 and relocated to Yemen where he has been preaching in support of Jihad, had been monitored by security agencies.

One wonders if there are so many such cases that no one can focus on the one who will explode next. It's hard to believe in retrospect that the Major was not under closer surveillance. No doubt anyone who knew anything about him is trying desperately to cover his or her ass.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:23 PM

amok-amuck-amock is a Malay word, not Filipino.

The word was applied by U. S. soldiers to Muslim fighters on Mindanao when the U. S. moved into the Philipines and "liberated" the islands from the Spanish.
The fight for self-rule by some of the minority Muslims (5-10%)goes on to this day, they cannot stand the dominance of the Catholic majority.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:13 PM

"I don't get why there was not a faster military response...."

There were TWO armed security folks there within 3 minutes or so. They are not stationed every 50 feet. One interview stressed that NO ONE except approved security people are supposed to have loaded weapons...even on a military base. You simply cannot guard against random craziness.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:47 PM

News reports are beginning to fault the military for being overly "politically correct." The case is being made that officials didn't want to sanction the guy because he was isolated due to his religious beliefs.
            Religion, however, is not something you're born with, like skin color or ethnicity. It's something you choose, like joining the KKK or becoming a poet.
            They didn't move against the shooter because they were unable to react rationally as a result of their own confining belief systems. As a result, 13 people are dead.
            Religion, is seems to me, is the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 09:46 AM

""Religion, however, is not something you're born with, like skin color or ethnicity. It's something you choose, like joining the KKK or becoming a poet.""

That's a seriously flawed statement Rig.

Religion is very often not an informed, adult, choice.

Frequently it is more like a brainwashing, in the sense that it is indoctrinated into the young before they develop the critical faculties that enable them to question inconsistencies.

You might state that with advancing years, and education, they should make the choice to turn away from it, but others could equally apply that rule-of-thumb response to Christianity, or Atheism, with equal justification.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 02:08 PM

Well...all this and other matters certainly bring up the issue of profiling again..(as if it ever goes away!)

We know that most Muslims would not do this...but we know that many of those who are willing to do such things these days...are Muslims.

We are learning that Hasan was becoming involved in religious & cultural concerns about Muslim issues, and was more & more heading towards extreme positions.
In other words, **Hasan** was essentially profiling non-Muslims...and, it seems, with justification.

story

"The Washington Post reported Tuesday that Hasan warned his medical colleagues a year and a half ago that to "decrease adverse events" the U.S. military should allow Muslim soldiers to be released as conscientious objectors instead of fighting in wars against other Muslims. Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, made the recommendation in a culminating presentation to senior Army doctors at Walter Reed Medical Center, where he spent six years as an intern, resident and fellow before being transferred to Fort Hood.

"It's getting harder and harder for Muslims in the service to morally justify being in a military that seems constantly engaged against fellow Muslims," Hasan said in the presentation, a copy of which was obtained by the Post.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 02:17 PM

Bill-

"It's getting harder and harder for Muslims in the service to morally justify being in a military that seems constantly engaged against fellow Muslims."

That was when Major Hasan was still trying to reason things out. Sometime later he made the major jump to strike out directly against his fellow soldiers.

The memorial service is going on today at Fort Hood. May it help some of the survivors.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 02:38 PM

Bill D

What do yo mean by "with justification?"

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:36 PM

"the U.S. military should allow Muslim soldiers to be released as conscientious objectors instead of fighting in wars against other Muslims

That makes sense. If the USA was engaged in a war agauinbst Israel, does anyone doubt that Jewish soldiers would be allowed to be be released?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:00 PM

Then I suppose the American Germans, Italians, and Japanese should not have been allowed voluntarily, or drafted, to fight Germans, Italians and Japanese during WW2. Right?

Makes no sense to me. Why allow Muslims to live in the U.S. and enjoy the freedoms they enjoy without being willing to fight for those freedoms?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:04 PM

I thought the memorial service at Ft. Hood was very moving. They young lady soldier who sang "Amazing Grace" has a beautiful voice and I don't think I have heard it sung better. Thank God she didn't butcher the song as so many other soloist's are want to do. She sang it as it was written. I'm pleased also to learn, based on the service, that the Army is not ashamed or hesitant to conduct a religious service for the fallen.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:13 PM

"What do yo mean by "with justification?"

Hasan was mocked and laughed at, ignored, harassed and his property damaged by various neighbors at Ft. Hood. This was, as Charley says, after he made the quoted remark: "It's getting harder and harder for Muslims in the service to morally justify being in a military that seems constantly engaged against fellow Muslims."

It seems as if he processed it all by distrusting and wanting to strike out AT those he felt were being unfair and harrassing HIM. This is very close to what we call 'profiling'.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:36 PM

This may seem a very strange thing to notice or mention - but did you see all of the typos in his medical school "thesis" (or whatever) presentation? That keeps coming back to me as something odd. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:19 PM

Heric-

Reviewing Mudcat posts has girded me from being surprised at seeing "typoes" in anyone's copy.

Let he who has never typoed cast the first exclamation point!!!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:31 PM

Regarding all the posts that pertained only to the type of gun and ammunition and the specialized knowledge pertaining to the time sensitive and distance issues that make for a successful shooting spree... ewww

HOWEVER
You reminded me of a crucial factor that I left out of my equation
and that is the required immersion in gun culture because of the simple immediacy in pulling a trigger.

The food for destructive thought is as sequential as denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptence when dealing with death.
My theory is Suspicion + Fear squared times Hate times Gun Culture = GS   
Suspicion plus repeated fear times hate times immersion in gun culture equals great suffering

All people are curious. The dark side of curiosity is suspicion.
When suspicion is fed enough lies, slandor and negative speculation it ferments into FEAR. Fear can be encouraged to grow with constant repetition until it bears a fruit called HATE. Eat enough hate and you have the recipe for great suffering.

Virtually anyone can fall down the slippery slpe of the dark side of fear. When this ultimately ends with running amok and becomeing the latest gunman to go beserk and indiscriminatly murdering people, we all to often lay the blame on a drug induced state, mental illness or a violent religious fervor.

S+FxHxGC=GS   Suspicion plus fear times hate times gun culture equals great suffering

It is true for everyone you know. It is true for you. It matters not if the person is a psychiatrist or a religious figure or a law enforcement officer or even a young innocent child.

By the time a person has reached the fear stage the mental health of the person is already in jeopardy. When it reaches the hate stage the prognosis is poor.

The best time to defuse this cycle of mental destruction is between suspicion and fear.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:35 PM

There for the grace of (___insert god of choice here___) go I.


you are not immune. You merely have not been subjected to a sufficient amount of contributing factors up to and including gun culture.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:37 PM

Typos in written material in someone's non-first language isn't surprising. Even conversely. All I have to do is think of myself: English was not my first language but don't expect me to be fluent or typo-free in my *first* language.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:15 PM

Thanks for clarifying that Bill. I was sure it would make sense if you elaborated. I'm not surprised he was harrassed.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:19 PM

A physician with a medical specialty is not likely to have typos in a formal presentation shown on a screen. I think it's nagging at me, just a little, in three areas: (1) Maybe none of his peers really thought of him as someone to take seriously; (2) Is he really an M.D. with a specialty, or is he someone with a government equivalency; and (3) Maybe he's a guy who never found his "right place."

Excerpts from his arguments sound meritorious and worthy of respectful consideration. But it seems no one ever took this guy seriously. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with typos most of the time (or anything wrong with a real GED.) I was also assuming that English was his first language. That does make a big difference.


- typo free post this time only

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: fumblefingers
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 11:47 PM

Harrassed? Officers aren't harrassed.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 03:44 PM

Anyone can be harassed.

Doug, we didn't "let" him live here as a Muslim and be in the army. He was born here. That makes him an American same as you.

As for typos, spellings etc., I am reminded of our own inOBU who has written about his inability to spell due to ADHD: CLick Here and scroll to last paragraph.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 05:53 PM

kat: I said nothing about the Major being born or not being born in the U.S. My remarks were aimed at the poster who appeared to agree that Muslims living in the United States should be excused from or not allowed to serve in the military because of their religion.

I'm amazed at the number of Mudcatters who appear to sympathize with the killer. He committed an act of terror. I'm glad he lived so that later he can be put to death after a proper trial. A plea of "not guilty" would appear to me to be a bit ridiculous.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 06:37 PM

Hasan had the choice of being a conscientious objector on religious grounds, or of not joining the military at all. As a psychiatrist, he had plenty of other paths he could have been gainfully employed in.

His failure, regardless of the stress or harassment he may have experienced, is in not pulling back from the edge of his own insanity and instead choosing to dramatize it. That was morally unacceptable and ethically weak conduct on his part, and his subsequent acts were criminally insane acts.

No-one forced him to take up arms against he wrong target no matterhow invalidated or beleaguered he may have been by anyone. You just don't take that step, because it is simply wrong.

A

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 06:46 PM

The Army psychiatrist accused of killing 13 people last week at Fort Hood, Tex., did not formally seek to leave the military as a conscientious objector or for any other reason, an Army official said.

It is unclear whether Maj. Nidal M. Hasan, whose aunt has said he sought to leave the military, made informal efforts to leave through contacts with his immediate superiors, and if so how his chain of command at lower levels might have responded to such efforts.

But any formal request by Hasan to separate early would have been submitted to the Department of the Army, according to the official, who saw Hasan's file before it was recently sealed by Army investigators. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the case publicly.



In 2007, addressing other physicians at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, Hasan said that to avoid "adverse events" the military should allow Muslim soldiers to be released as conscientious objectors instead of fighting in wars against other Muslims. At the time of the shooting, Hasan was about to be deployed to Afghanistan, officials have said.

After the shooting, Noel Hasan said her nephew had sought for several years to be discharged. She said he had consulted an attorney about getting out of the service.

In an interview Tuesday, Hasan's criminal attorney, retired Col. John P. Galligan, declined to discuss whether his client had attempted to secure conscientious objector status or to leave the military.

Even if Hasan had sought to quit the Army over his opposition to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army almost certainly would have denied any such request, senior Army officials said. Hasan had a continuing obligation because the Army had provided him with medical training.

In a further indication Hasan was not actively seeking formal discharge, he underwent an Army promotion board in the spring of 2008 that endorsed his performance as an officer as patriotic and elevated him from the rank of captain to major, a promotion that took place in May 2009, according to the official.

The Army faces a severe shortage of officers who hold the rank of major, as Hasan does, and that shortage is particularly acute in some medical branches. The Army this year is short about 2,000 majors needed to fill slots created as the service has grown in recent years, according to Army data. In the field of medical doctors, the Army lacks about 15 percent of the majors it needs, the data show.

To address the shortfall, virtually all Army captains are being promoted to major. The Army's promotion rate from captain to major has been well over 90 percent since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, leading some officers to describe the trend as the "no major left behind" program.

Hasan joined the Army in 1997, attended Army medical training and then worked as a psychiatry intern and resident at Walter Reed from 2003 until July of this year, when he was transferred to the Carl R. Darnall Army Medical Center at Fort Hood. Hasan's last official performance evaluation took place in June of this year, according to an Army summary of his career known as an "officer record brief."

Maj. Gen. Gina Farrisee, the Army's personnel chief, said in an interview Monday that due to the ongoing investigation, she and other Army officials cannot discuss Hasan's specific situation. However, Farrisee said it would take an extraordinary situation -- such as debilitating illness or the death of a spouse -- for an officer with Hasan's rank and medical training to be allowed to resign before completing his or her service obligation. (WaPo)

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 06:53 PM

"... Mudcatters who appear to sympathize with the killer."

I don't see this. I see some...including myself... who sympathize a bit with his situation, as I sympathize with gays & lesbians who try to serve and are treated badly by bigots.
It might be that Muslims, as well as gays & lesbians, should EITHER be exempt, or stricter attention be paid to making sure everyone is treated fairly.

NOTHING 'excuses' that sort of response to perceived problems. He should be prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 07:52 PM

The guy's obviously bonkers; if they prosecute he'll end up in the loony bin. Not that I have any better idea what to do with him.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 08:40 PM

You can sympathize with anyone, as a basic himan sense of compassion, without ignoring the justice of the situation and the criminality of his acts.


A

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 09:06 PM

There you go.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 10:01 PM

?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 10:27 PM

I think the answer to your question mark, Rig, is that this guy was once a child, pure in thought and mind. He is no longer, and justice is required. The first sentence, and what Amos said, are both still true.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 11:13 PM

The problem is, I think Rig will allow, that as a trusting child he allowed his mind to be filled with computations that made absolutely no sense compared to what he saw in the world. This can be very treacherous stuff.

I have nothing against faith, but filling a child's had with uncomputble data about life is a disservice that can have very far-reaching and very negative consequences.

A

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 09:00 AM

Ebbie will you ever stop critisizing the dyslexic?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 09:10 AM

The point is, I think, you can bring him to court and try him, but if he pleads insanity, how would one prove that he's not, given what has occurred?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:17 AM

The relentless Christianity in the military (there are documented horror stories about them fragging atheists after they get to the war zone and being completely intolerant of any other religion -or the lack thereof- before going there) certainly had a lot to do with it, but I bet we won't hear that from the investigation.

The poor guy, and how awful for people actually needing shrinks. That is, yes, *after* How awful for the shooting victims and their families.

There were early reports that not all the bullets that hit people other than the shooter came from the shooter, back when there were also reports that there may have been more than one shooter. I would bet it turns out that those running up to help started shooting anybody who had a gun out, without knowing whether they were shooting at the shooter or not. (Which, of course, makes sense, and there might be nothing wrong with that.) But I would further put money down that if any of the shot were people of color, then the chances are higher that they were shot by those trying to help rather than the original shooter...

Wonder if we'll hear any more about that, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: meself
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:58 AM

"The point is, I think, you can bring him to court and try him, but if he pleads insanity, how would one prove that he's not, given what has occurred?"

If you cannot prove that he is not insane, then maybe just maybe he is insane. So the point is ... you don't get to fry him?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 11:03 AM

"Ebbie will you ever stop critisizing the dyslexic? " Donuel

Sheesh, Don. I might as well ask when you are going to start reading for comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 11:24 AM

"But I would further put money down that if any of the shot were people of color, then the chances are higher that they were shot by those trying to help rather than the original shooter..."

             Why would you think that?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: open mike
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:09 PM

the "alleged" "suspected" "accused" shooter has been charged with 13 counts premeditated murder

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5i6jRIPy4SRbfWfI3PgZCEL1AnWdg

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5AB43E20091112

http://www.cbs19.tv/Global/story.asp?S=11494032


it seems as if it wold have been more just if he had died..
who is payng all the hospital bills, court costs, incurred
by him and his victims...

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 07:46 PM

Because it wouldn't surprise me if a regular American Army white person, who goes running to a shooting and sees people of color shooting, would shoot at them.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: CET
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 08:17 PM

I don't know what the Uniform Code of Military Justice says about insanity, but if it is anything like the common law concept of insanity, I think the defence might have a fairly steep hill to climb to prove insanity (and the onus would be on them). It's hard to argue that he did not appreciate the nature and quality of his acts or that they were wrong.

I don't have much sympathy for his religious scruples about serving in wars against fellow Muslims. He signed up to be an officer in the U.S. Army. It was his duty to serve in Afghanistn. What did he think he was getting into when he accepted the free medical training? If, as reports suggest, he was infected with jihadism, his hypocrisy about fighting Muslims is stunning. The jihadis absolutely revel in killing Muslims (of the wrong kind, of course).

That being said, I still don't agree about putting him to death. This is a poster case for the death penalty alright, but the problem is that if you want to execute Maj Hasan you also have to be ready to kill Guy Paul Morin and David Milgaard (Canadians will know who the are) and Timothy Evans (Brits will understand that reference). They were all found guilty of equally heinous crimes, and they were all innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:52 PM

Once again, religious convictions serve to destructive ends.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:54 PM

Once again, a MAN goes berserk and kills people.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:59 PM

Or maybe we could just go racist and leave the other 'ists' out of it.

Once again an Arab...
Once again, a mentally ill person...
Once again, a military guy...

Lets see what other bigoted stuff we can throw out here, and not say it was simply a disturbed person with a weapon and he did it because HE CHOSE, AS AN INDIVIDUAL, TO DO IT.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:06 PM

Gee, Jeri, are you implying that a man is responsible for his actions?

These days, ya gotta dress it up in culture, religion, parental shortcomings, the red dye in vitamin pills, influence of computer games, educational shortcomings, improper toilet training, sexual inadequacy, etc., etc.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 05:07 PM

Well, you were just gender-specific, yourself, Jeri!**bg** (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

I do agree with you...a sad thing no matter who or what the killer happens to be.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: mg
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 06:49 PM

Well, if the regular American Army white person, who goes running to a shooting and sees people of color shooting,

What? In the first place, why would the regular American Army person be presumed to be white? And most of these people, hopefully including the finance clerks etc., would have had weapons training. And even if they were unarmed they would have a few tricks up their sleeves involving staplers etc. And wouldn't they look at the directions the shots were coming from if numerous people were shooting at one person? Of course they wouldn't know that probably right off the bat..but sometimes it could be easy to see who the main shooter was and who the defenders were..not always..maybe that is what you meant.

I am still curious where the MPs were..maybe it has been explained..maybe it all happened too fast..mg

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:17 PM

Kat, the 'MAN' thing wasn't serious. I was trying to provide another example of an 'ist' founded post.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Janie
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 11:10 PM

I confess I have only skimmed this thread.

I have been following the "news", and what is most striking to me in reading the news are the following observations:

1. There really is not enough information known at present to draw conclusions beyond the fact that a lone military gunman shockingly gunned down at random a number of people at his military base.


2. The posts of Q, Bill D., Jeri and Amos jump out at me as pretty objective. They are not completely harmonious posts, but they all reflect the capacity to accept complexity and multi-determination.

3. Congress, and the nation, are looking for a simplistic model of a scape goat within government and beaurocracy.

The witch hunt is on for some one to blame in addition to the shooter, for not discerning within him the potential for this awful violence. When someone goes berserk and kills a bunch of people in a shooting spree, there are nearly always red flags that are apparent in hindsight. It would appear, at first blush, to have been some red flags in this instance. However, we are country that purports to value differences and diversity of opinion and also purports to value individual freedom. It seems to me that the operationalization of those values include inherent risks that occasionally some one who has come under scrutiny as a potential threat, will be erroneously dismissed as a threat. Speaking very generally and with a detachment I would perhaps not have if one of my loved ones had been killed or wounded by this man, I actually think it is in the best interests of freedom that those who looked at or investigated this man for prior actions or contacts under-reacted rather than over-reacted. Individual freedom is not possible without risk to society.

mg, as I said, I only have skimmed this thread, so perhaps you have already responded to inquiries regarding your post in which you said:

I don't get why there was not a faster military response..mp or something...it was a civilian policewoman who brought him down I think..you have to be prepared for this kind of thing..certainly from outsiders...on a post...mg

Why in the world are you referring to some one who is a citizen of the United States as an outsider? If you have already responded to a similar inquiry on this thread, don't be bothered to answer. I will hopefully be able to read the thread more carefully over the weekend, and will see your response.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 11:58 PM

A Folk Music Discusion Forum...and NO ONE...(not even in other on-line forums)

...has noticed the irony (wonderful subliminal PR) behind the hymn that was played in the background/preface of Obama's speech? The Marine Crop officer certainly understood the selection...(I hope)

approx = era 1600 (far too late for factuality)and commonly terned

"The Crusader's Hymn.

"

(Look dude/dudette MODS - I travel to the area ....so leave me anonymous .... because this never rose "above the line" and I am a guest, and am unwelcome "below the line" ... and it is not worthy of a new thread.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Janie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:18 AM

From lcrchurch.org/toptenhymns.htm

7. Beautiful Savior
(#518, Lutheran Book of Worship)
Click on the Piano to listen to the Hymn


Hymn #7 in the LCR Top 10 countdown dates back to 1677, when the words were included a German Jesuit hymnal or songbook called the Munster Gesangbuch. But despite its Catholic origins, it is now firmly identified with American Lutherans. In fact, there are dozens of Lutheran churches named after this hymn.

The words were translated from German in 1873 and published in the Lutheran Sunday-School Book by Joseph A. Seiss, a prominent Lutheran pastor, author, and a founder of the General Council, one of the first efforts to unify the many Lutheran church bodies in the U.S. Another translation of the hymn – "Fairest Lord Jesus" – is used by many other Protestant churches. The fourth verse is the same in both versions.

The tune comes from a folk tune from Silesia, now part of southern Poland but formerly part of Austria and then Germany. It's called the "Crusader's Hymn" because it was erroneously thought to date from the time of the Crusades.

No irony that I can see given the actual origins of the hymn and the fact that most know it only as either "Beautiful Savior" or "Fairest Lord Jesus."

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: open mike
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:39 AM

maybe the "outsider" label in mg's post
referred to the civilian law enforcement woman
as someone from outside the base...??

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:44 AM

It was hypothetical. The MPs would have been prepared for this sort of thing if it had been done by an outsider to the base.

You betcha--they probably wouldn't have gotten onto the base with a gun. We probably need a cop to answer a cop question, but if the MPs pull up to a building where shooting has been reported, I rather doubt they just go storming in, and I think this went down very fast.

The one time security police were called on me (it was a little administrative oopsie), it took the first cars maybe two minutes to show up, although the panel wagon and the dogs took a bit longer. Two minutes is fast.

Some of us have fired weapons, some have been around weapons fire, and still others have watched war movies and cop shows. How many rounds to you think a person can fire in two minutes?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:54 AM

"Once again, religious convictions serve to destructive ends."


                  Amen to that!

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 10:29 AM

'Religious convictions' did not pull the trigger.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: meself
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 10:45 AM

"The one time security police were called on me (it was a little administrative oopsie), it took the first cars maybe two minutes to show up, although the panel wagon and the dogs took a bit longer."

Do you mind if I use this line in my next performance? I intend to insert a pregnant pause before the last clause (" ... show up, [pregnant pause] although ... ").

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 11:25 AM

The fact that the trigger man was a Muslim and that this is an issue means that religion did pull the trigger. To what degree none of us really know but it was there.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 11:51 AM

Frank, that's bigoted, close-minded, hateful horse shit. I suppose if it had been an athiest, you'd have to say it had been his lack of beliefs that pulled the trigger.

On the other hand, I congratulate the many Muslims in the military whose religious convictions are the reasons they don't go nuts and kill their fellow soldiers.

...and that's the last this atheist has to say to anti-religion extremists in this thread. There's a place in this world for hatred, and it's somewhere where I'm not.
~~~~~~~~~

Meself, I don't actually get why that's funny, and I suspect your audience may find it requires too much work on their part.

Unless it's an "And then it took the claims department two weeks to...

...reply to my letter" or an "It took the waiter an hour and a half to...

...seat us" in which case, I'm rolling on the floor.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: meself
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:20 PM

I'm sure that the actual situation wasn't at all funny - and I don't mean this as any reflection on the actual situation, but the way you worded it, it reminded me of one those comedic routines in which the comic portrays a character who is blaming everyone else for over-reacting to a supposedly trivial event which the audience soon realizes was not so trivial - you know, "And then I had to talk to them on the phone for half an hour before they'd give me one lousy cigarette. Fortunately, my hostage was a non-smoker ... " - that sort of thing; that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:55 PM

Thanks neself. The whole story is more complicated.

Let's talk over-reacting.
I'm at a secure facility and I hand the guard my exchange badge, say my password and he looks for the facility badge.
He realizes I gave him the wrong badge NOT because of the picture on it but because the password I gave him is wrong. Says "Please step to the back of the 'cage' (wired in area) and do not move.

Then he calls the cops and they start showing up. Maybe three or four cop cars with lights and sirens that came from who-knows-where, then a paneled truck with about 5 more cops, then a cop car with a working dog. All the humans had M-16s and the dog had teeth. Me, up against the wire, hands and feet spread and holding onto it. (They told me that the week before, some Colonel did something similar, gave them some lip and wound up 'kissing concrete', but I did everything they told me and shut up. (I know how hard that last is to believe, but it's true.)

They 'talked to' me and called my boss (who had handed the badges out after we left the previous facility) who 'talked to' me for not noticing she'd fucked up and subsequently got both of us 'talked to' by the commander.

And then I went to class on base that night, mentioned I'd had an interesting day, explained what had happened, and somebody in class said, "Oh, so YOU were the 'Whatsit Thingie' (name of cop response situation has been improvised)!!!

This is all pretty funny, considering everything turned out fine. It only has the military police response in common with the shooting at Ft. Hood. They were able to get to me fast because 1) I was outside, plus it was an area they could drive right up to, 2) I did not have a weapon. There was no chance of me shooting a cop, and there were no potential dangers to themselves that they had to discover.

Fundamentally, I think we're all one bad decision away from being chalk outlines. If you think too hard about how easy it is to just walk up to a person and shoot them, you never want to leave your house. It doesn't happen very often though, which may be a little bit of a miracle.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: meself
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 02:11 PM

That's quite a story ... I can't top it ... !

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:27 PM

By outsider I meant someone from outside the base.

And any military base has to be alert for attacks from without, and from within, from stressed out personnel with access to weapons. And should have a percentage of its population with licenses to carry weapons..perhaps only higher ranking officers and NCOs. I don't know. mg

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Janie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:43 PM

Thanks, mg, for the clarification. That was apparently clear to those who have been reading carefully and participating in this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:32 PM

"Frank, that's bigoted, close-minded, hateful horse shit."


               Factual horse shit, nonetheless!

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 10:39 AM

Frank Rich in this Sunday's NY Times has the best analysis of the situation I've heard in the opinion section. He's nailed it.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 10:41 AM

Jeri, you confuse a point-of-view with hatred. That's intolerant.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 01:26 PM

Under most circumstances, police officers on military are "civilian" employees rather than military police. {And I "..." civilian because most police officers refer to the likes of us as civilians.} This is because, in a military context, law enforcement is just not a military function. The US military moved away from having soldiers function in non-military roles (such as, to give another example, the time-honored KP) many years ago. There are exceptions, of course (I got a speeding ticket from a (female) MP sergeant on Ft. Bliss a couple of years ago).

Since soldiers of any rank are not allowed to carry weapons on duty, unless they are heading for the firing range, and carrying of privately-owned weapons off duty in not allowed on military installations, it is most likely that any armed officer responding at Ft. Hood was a civilian police officer rather than a "regular American Army white person". In fact, one officer was (visually) African-American and the other was (visually) a "white" female.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 01:55 PM

Adding a bit to artbrooks-
Fort Hood Directorate of Emergency Services is a large group, headed by Mr. Charles Medley, civilian, offering police, and other services.

It is one of many Directorates at Fort Hood, listed on the Fort Hood website:
http://pao.hood.army.mil/directorates.aspx

Of these directorates, only the Hood Mobilization Brigade, and the Chaplains directorate, are headed by commissioned military officers. Most may be contacted by people outside the Fort, but not Emergency Services, Internal review, etc., which deal with security and policing.

Noted far above that Fort Hood essentially is a city; for the troops but with many civilian services. This is true of most military posts.

Subject: RE: BS: name of solist of National Anthem Ft. Hood
From: GUEST,J. Teeter
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 08:25 PM

Does anyone know the name of soloist who sang the Nation Anthem at the Fort Hood Memorial? I've searched on line and called music stores etc to see if it is on CD. Please respond.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: heric
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 10:44 PM

There wasn't one, Guest JT.