BS: Where are all the Righties???

Subject: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:10 AM

Gettin' kinda borin' unner the line these days...

I mean, in the MudRighties heyday they would have been all over Obama for bring the 9/11 suspects to New York to stand trial in federal court...

They would have been all over Ms. Sarah's new book "Going Rouge"...

They would have been all over Obama for takin' his time on a new stategy for Afganistan...

Heck, they would have jumped on the commies fir Obama getting off tyhe pot smoker's backs...

I am disappointed in ya'll and don't pretend I ain't talkin' to *you* 'casue ya'll know who yous are...

Grrrrrrrrrr....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:14 AM

You speakin to me ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Stower
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:43 AM

If "Gettin' kinda borin' unner the line these days" means ...

... that Muddcatters have stopped tearing each other to pieces
... that we are all, at last, being polite and considerate, regardless of dis/agreeing with others' opinions
... that people are actually reading posts and responding to the actual points people are actually making with replies that actually move the debate forward, rather throwing insults and shouting furiously without listening or regard to how insults will be received
... that flaming fascists are becoming increasingly absent
... that posting on Mudcat has ceased to be a blood sport

then I, for one, am glad of this state of affairs. I don't go online onto Mudcat for a punchup. I come here for information and reasoned debate. If you find this boring, I hope you'll find somewhere to take out your angst in a safe environment where others will not be negatively affected.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:55 AM

Nah, Stower, just some good ol' fashion bloodless, bashless, insultless, shoutless, flameless differences of opinion... Ain't nuthin' wrong with that...

I mean, lotta folks can do that kinda stuff without have to pull no switchblades outta their pockets... Really...

Just seems to me that there is alot of stuff goin' on right-of-center that would be kinda fun to mess in...

That, BTW, is why they seperated the upper and unner threads back a ferw years ago... Seems folks before then were always complainin' that people were talkin' politics rather than tabs for "Puff the Magic Dragon"... lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:57 AM

Less people posting, so less spats

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 11:22 AM

They are still here. Mudcat should be commended for allowing different viewpoints.
I think they have been useful.

It's amazing how little people know about what's going on in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 11:55 AM

grrrr...

Fewer people not less people.

I know I am RIGHT about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:10 PM

You are, it's one of my favourite mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:11 PM

You smile when you talk about my (ex) guvnor, podner. . .

I know I'M smilin'

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:53 PM

Why *hasn't* Obama pulled the troops out of Afghanistan?

I'm disappointed in him..

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 01:03 PM

What Lizzie, you mean apart from the opression of women, and the use of Afghanistan as a base to attack and occupy Pakistan, which has nuclear weapons?
No you're quite right, I just can't understand why he keeps them there to be killed by people who want to control the opium trade, so they can get money to buy more arms, to kill more infidels!

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 01:22 PM

A more serious take: p'raps one of the things happening is that the lefties have been so undercut by the non-lefty actions of this centrist administration that the righties are just kinda settin' back laughin'.

One of my friends here is a life-long Republican who began to vote "Democrat" with the first 'W' 'election' ("I'm voting for the guy I think is best for the country, not my pocketbook"). I touched bases with him recently to see how happy he is with 'bama and he said: "The President is doing EVERYTHING I wanted of him."

I tend to agree. I never expected perfection. But I think he's shown some guts and some intelligence.

The Republicants are basically taking the position of complaining about ANYTHING the administration does without advocating anything solid on their own. It's kinda grimly amusing, reminiscent of how the antis treated FDR.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 01:44 PM

There was never any real legitimate reason to invade Aghanistan in the first place, it was an unjustified and criminal act by the USA to invade a country which had absolutely NOTHING to do with planning or orchestrating the 911 attacks, and for Obama to continue to enlarge that war under the pretense that he is protecting America by so doing is asinine. It's his biggest mistake so far in this administration.

Here's an article by Eric Margolis, a Canadian columnist, who discusses the Afghan situation in depth. Read it.

Afghanistan - a war of lies

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:02 PM

oh....I'm sure we're all around here somewhere...

Not on much because we've all been ratholin' money and gold for when Obama finally causes the economy to collapse...

Time for arguing is over....you wanted change...you sure got it....enjoy it.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: sing4peace
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:19 PM

Right Wing?
Left Wing?
Same bird.

Pigeonholes?
They're for the birds!

JK

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:35 PM

I may not be doing my talking on Mudcat (it's a lost cause), but I'm now doing it in my neighborhood. Most fervently I hope to replace my congressman and Ms Pelosi in the coming elections (I don't mean I wish to take their place). And, of course, nothing would please me more than to replace Mr. Obama in the presidency...that though will be tough considering that we have no leading lights on the right...Yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:37 PM

Barbara Boxer, too. I believe she's up for re-election, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:41 PM

Why comment now? Obama and the Dems are cutting their own throats. Things are moving along jes' fine.

They will lose the Senate and maybe the House in the next election.

Sarah (heartthrob) Palin to take the helm in 2012!

There, that make you all happy and puppy-warm?

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:00 PM

"Why *hasn't* Obama pulled the troops out of Afghanistan?"

Because Bush handed him the tail of the tiger he (Bush) had let out of the cage.

"<... we have no leading lights on the right.."
I wonder why that would be? It seems that every sensible, moderate 'righty' that tries to say or do anything is hooted down and attacked by the FAR 'righties'. Even Arlen Spector knew when there was no room for a diversity of views in the GOP....and Newt is having trouble also.
This sad state of affairs where the only thing the GOP wants to do is "defeat anything the Dems try to do" is making them look foolish.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"They will lose the Senate and maybe the House in the next election."
*grin*...don't bet the ranch on THAT one!

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:03 PM

Frankly, I think it's time to take the helm away from men- if "heartthrob Palin" is going to be the standard!

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:26 PM

Geeziz Bobertz,,,,,I'm feelin' pretty bad for ya'.....I mean really. Lessee.......maybe I can help! Yeah.........okay......I'm RIGHT handed and that's something anyway so coming from that position, I'd suggest you go fuck your own self or somethin' along that order of thing. Maybe you could take a flying fuck at the moon!   What about that?

Is this helpful at all?   I dunno'..........See, I got this note from Joe saying that some folks get real offended about me 'cause they think I'm nasty and all. I hear that one of them suggested it was because of "health problems." That gave me a good laugh I have to say since I been like this my whole life and grew up playing the dozens. But I tell ta' true Ol' Friend, if me telling you you're a jackass can help any, then I'll break my nastiness silence and say you're a fuckin' jackass!!!

If not, just forget I said anything.............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:28 PM

...when Obama finally causes the economy to collapse...

Whoo, boy, talk about alternative reality...

1. The economy HAS collapsed

and

2. It was on Dumbya's watch that it did so, and precisely because of BuShite (and Reaganite) policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Janie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:46 PM

Beaubear, methinks the P-vine needs to find some more chores for you to do to keep you from tryin' to pick a fight out of boredom through the long winter:>)

John and Q, I tend to not wade into the fray very often on political threads, but want to say that while I rarely share your perspectives on "what is likely to work" for the country, I often find your comments very thoughtful and value reading your perspectives.

The thing that strikes me about Obama's administration is he also values different perspectives, does not discount stakeholders because they differ with his philosophy, is aware that most Americans (and most humans) have much more in common in terms of values and definition of "the common good" than differences, and that the philosophical differences among truly thinking, caring and responsible citizens are about how those goals are best acheived.

I see him as in search of a "middle way", because that might be acheivable, and in search of a way to reduce the polarization of our increasingly diverse and fearful populace through rational process. I do not know that it is possible to be successful at that in a large and diverse country, given the propensity of most of us to be pretty irrational and emotional in our thinking, and being either unable or unwilling to recognize that we all see through distorted lenses - that our paradigms shape how we perceive reality and how we evaluate.

I hope, perhaps unrealistically, that both Congress and the American people will give him a chance to perhaps move our country and our governance toward a more workable and effective way for different interests to be heard, to have their interests validated, and to get to "Yes" in a diverse population.

Would it be so terrible to give the man a chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Janie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:49 PM

Or achievable:>)

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:05 PM

Geez Spaw, I am upset now, I thought I was special. Now I find you get notes from Joe too.
Well I am so upset!

JM

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:50 PM

Bobert, y' got another blues thread sliding down the top, and the blues so-called-fans have not checked in at all -- suggests to me that the blame for such slides can't all be laid at the feet of those blues-ignoring "other" folks, if you've got more time for political pot-stirrin' than checking out blues-making about the world...

I'm just sayin'...

Are the blues enthusiasts so tired of their minority that they'd rather be tokin' than token?

Has the past tendency of blues threads to slide to the bottom led to the token bluesists' fixation on B.S., now at the bottom of the page?

Just wonderin'...

~ B in LB

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:36 PM

Danged, I gotta go up to the highbrow section and check out this blues thread... So seldom there are any that I kinda quit lookin' fir 'um...

But nevermind them blues threads fir now 'cause I reckon I owe the Spawzer a big thankee... I mean, that "fuck you" post was vintage and suitable fir framin'... Thanks and...

...sniff... Gets me all weepy inside...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:48 PM

As matter of fact, there are TWO, and you missed one.

The important one.

(e.g., mine.)

~ B in LB

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Janie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:30 PM

One of 'em what pm'd Joe was me, Spaw. My feelings was bad hurt that Cletus never got back to me about the shape Paw's truck is in.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: GUEST,Goose Gander
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 10:16 PM

I don't have wings.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Janie
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 01:10 AM

What, a wingless goose, and a gander at that!

Poor dear.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 01:40 AM

I'm into vintage and rare cars. Anyone know where I can get a 1932 Jagoff Special that is still in running condition?

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:24 AM

Where are all the Righties???
Well I never have considered myself one but if you are referring to those who didn't support Obama, basically we were driven out by intolerance.
I just popped in to see how you were all doing with him after one year.
Obviously, the guy turned out to be the empty suit we said he was and judging by some of your own remarks, you know it.
There's just no-one willing to be kicked around any more.
Absolutely no point in it.
You got what you wanted.
Enjoy!

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: kendall
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 05:52 AM

Empty suit? Explain? Platitudes dont cut it here Jim, we want facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:53 AM

Once again thank you Little Hawk for pasting that brilliant article by
Eric Margolis, I would be curious to how many US papers took up Margolis`s article.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:58 AM

Empty suit, my butt!!!

Me thinks one of the reasons the righties don't come 'round here is 'cuase deep inside they know that Obama is doing a much better job than McCain would have done...

Now let me go hunt for that other blues thread...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 11:52 AM

Interesting that you should bring up McCain, Bobert. I have thought about starting a thread posing the question: What would John McCain be doing right now? (Keeping in mind that Palin would be there too. shudder Talk about wanting to keep Bush in office so that we wouldn't have President CHENEY...)

The part that we knew, going in, was that the mess that Bush left will not be easily or quickly or cheaply cleaned up. Those on the right - not IN the right, mind- choose to ignore that.

Obama may have found the going harder and more complex than even he expected but I doubt it- he tried to warn us.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: kendall
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 12:34 PM

The Bush gang was also warned about Bernie Maddoff and they ignored that warning too.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 12:58 PM

I predict that if McCain were in office he would be upping troop levels in Afghanistan, vowing to stay until "victory" is secured there (ha ha), and blathering on about how the USA "won't be cowed by North Korea".....now THERE's a ridiculous notion! ;-) It's like declaring that Russia won't be cowed by Jamaica or something along that line.

In other words, he'd be doing a lot of the same stupid imperial stuff that Obama is doing, only he'd look and sound a WHOLE LOT stupider while he said it.

Obama doesn't look or sound stupid. He just makes stupid policy decisions while looking and sound intelligent. He probably is very intelligent, I think....but, alas, he is a front man for something else entirely, and he has to do exactly what that something else requires him to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: meself
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 01:48 PM

"but, alas,"

"alas"? Careful, you're starting to sound like - whatzername - Conrad Black's smug wife - in her "Macleans" columns ....

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:20 PM

Amiel, I think her name was. Anyhow, it sounded like one of those hot cereals.

Obama is, and will continue to be, controlled by Congress.
The Senate will rewrite the House health bill, keeping a few bandaids.
China will continue to outrun U. S. industrial production.
Middle East policy will be determined by Israel.
Interference in Afghanistan and Pakistan will continue.
He lacks the horses to carry out his programs, thus is confined to making uplifting speeches.

The next Congress will upset his canoe. A slight Republican majority seems likely. The electorate is too divided to give either right or left a firm direction, thus the U. S. will continue to muddle along.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: kendall
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 03:48 PM

Maybe it's best that neither gang of crooks has total power.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 04:25 PM

Probably so, kendall. Although they are both run by the same imperial interests, so how much can it really matter?

Still, I think it's best that neither party get to dominate the agenda completely.

It's Barbara Amiel you're referring to, "meself". She's a strange character. In her youth she was an ardent leftist, but having "matured" (???)(as she imagines) she has become a stauch rightist of the intellectual variety, sort of like a female William F. Buckley Junior. She's an extremely smart woman...and, I think, an extremely twisted one also. She's good at identifying hypocrisy in the Left...not nearly so good at identifying megalomania in the Right.

I think Q has it about right with his list of predictions.

When I said "alas", I really meant it. I think it's a tragedy that a man with Obama's obvious intelligence and fine reasoning abilities is being made to play the role of a glib mouthpiece for an imperial power bent on fighting an endless and unwinnable war against 1/4 of all humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 04:48 PM

Don't say I didn't warn you!
"Obama will change what he is allowed to change"
"a creature of the system"

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 04:50 PM

You want real change? elect a real person!

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 05:22 PM

How does one do that when the party power system is arranged (from the top down) to either exclude such people, buy them out, muzzle them...or kill them?

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:01 PM

I agree absolutely Little Hawk, and remember the ritual slaughter of a woman who appeared to have retained a little individuality(Mrs Palin) by most of the good people here.

Sometimes we need a "loose cannon" to shake the foundations of the system.....doesn't really matter if they come from stage right or stage left.....the real enemy is the system itself, that great warm insideous comforter.
"Just calm down and take your meds Big Brother will take care of everything"

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: heric
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:05 PM

If Obama is a mouthpiece for a crusade to subjugate 1/4 of the world's population for their religious beliefs, Little Hawk, how can you "Like the guy?"

Don't you have a duty to engage in passive resistance at the barest minimum, ensuring your money doesn't end up in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:10 PM

ake, the "ritual slaughter of Mrs. Palin"? Your ignorance is laughable.

"By Calvin Woodward | The Associated Press
EDITOR'S NOTE - "Fact Check" is an occasional look at assertions by government officials and others on how well they adhere to the facts.

"WASHINGTON - Sarah Palin's new book reprises familiar claims from the 2008 presidential campaign that haven't become any truer over time.

"Ignoring substantial parts of her record if not the facts, she depicts herself as a frugal traveler on the taxpayer's dime, a reformer without ties to powerful interests and a politician roguishly indifferent to high ambition.

"Palin goes adrift, at times, on more contemporary issues, too. She criticizes President Barack Obama for pushing through a bailout package that actually was achieved by his Republican predecessor George W. Bush - a package she seemed to support at the time.

"A look at some of her statements in "Going Rogue," obtained by The Associated Press in advance of its release Tuesday:"


It goes on from there. Her "slaughter" is of a transitory, non-durable kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:18 PM

I like his basic personality, heric, his intelligence, his dignified demeanor, his articulate way of speaking, his willingness to discuss things reasonably, and his general style. Is that not good enough reason to like a person?

A wrongful cause can include in its ranks many very good people. I regard America's imperial policies in the Middle East to be a wrongful cause....but I am quite sure that a great many good people are serving in that cause, most of them unwittingly, and I do not dislike them as people. I just disagree with the cause they are working for, that's all.

My form of passive resistance is to not buy most of the consumer lifestyle the $ySStem is selling, and not to spend much of my time tuning in to its sales pitch. I don't watch TV. I don't listen to commercial radio. I don't buy drugs (legal or otherwise). I don't give my money or my support to the mainstream political parties. I don't live in a perpetual state of debt (which is what I am tacitly encouraged to do).

As such, I am quite subversive to the system, but without attacking it in any direct fashion. I just don't consent to dance its little dance, that's all.

I do vote. But I do that mainly just for fun. I find it an amusing exercise to engage in on the rare occasions when it comes along. If I had had a chance to vote for Dennis Kucinich, I certainly would have done so without hesitation, though. I consider him to be a voice of sanity in a desert of fantasy and denial.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:34 PM

Ebbie the lefties here(including yourself) were more interested in winning the phoney contest between Pubs and Dems , than in any real change. They voted for Mr Obama, a career politician from Chicago of all places, because he was colour of the month and ticked all the PC boxes, "change" was never anything other than a buzz word.

If you are looking for ignorance, look no further than those who indulge in this disgusting charade every four years....now that is REAL ignorance

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:08 PM

Well, to be fair, Ake, the public in the USA was desperate in 2008 for real change, and many of them hoped that Obama would deliver it and believed he would. I had my doubts, but I thought there was some possibility of it at least, and I figured that I'd find out after Obama got elected. My deeper feeling, though, was that even if Obama genuinely desired to fullfill the kind of progressive hopes his campaign was arousing in people, his party and the ruling power structure that stands behind both the Dems and the Pubs would never allow him to.

Thus I would say that the Left was simply naive regarding the situation. It's not ignorance so much as it is sheer wishful thinking.

The Republicans engage in similarly unrealistic wishful thinking regarding the people that party chooses to run for high office.

In both cases they've been had.

If a man (or woman) got to the White House and tried to change things as much as Obama suggested he would while he was campaigning, his life wouldn't be worth a plugged nickel. When you get to that level of government you either do what the $ySStem wants or they find a way to put you out of business.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:12 PM

"He just makes stupid policy decisions while looking and sound intelligent. He probably is very intelligent, I think....but, alas, he is a front man for something else entirely, and he has to do exactly what that something else requires him to do."

??? How DO you come up with glib commentary like that, L.H.? (or Akenaton?) And would you recognize a smart policy decision if it bit you on the butt?

I am amazed at the deep, *urk*, insightful *cough, cough*, brilliant, *giggle*, incisive, *choke*, analyses by some of the armchair wizards of world politics we have here.

....and Dennis Kucinich can't distinguish between idealistic wishful thinking and practical decision making. He's a good guy for stating where we'd LIKE to be, but his road maps are straight lines...4-lane highways that ignore rivers, mountains and fault lines. "Point this vehicle HOME, and let's go!"

sorry, guys...but Obama is coming closer to navigating this damned minefield the Republicans left us with than about anyone could.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:25 PM

Now, don't get fractious, Bill. ;-) I wouldn't wish Obama's job on anyone...specially anyone I like.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:26 PM

Again I agree with you Hawk, but there are always those brave enough to challenge the system, be it through political belief or just good old egomania.
When I first heard Mrs Palin speak, I thought...now here is someone who believes what she says, she may be naive and under-educated but she is real, with the power to inspire ordiary people.
Obama appealed mainly to the "intellegensia", and although the blacks voted for him en masse, he never won over working class whites.
The Mudcat dems just loved him....he was their winning ticket against their hated enemies
If they had really wanted change they would have campaigned for Kucinich......but of course they don't want change, they just want a winner.

As I said over a year ago the parallels with Blair and the left in the UK are unmistakable.....x factor politics....

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:32 PM

The fact that he never carried the white working class was presented here as racism (isn't everything) When it was simply a case of working people refusing to succumb to "political colour blindness"

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:36 PM

"When you get to that level of government you either do what the $ySStem wants or they find a way to put you out of business. "

and THAT is a prime example. You have decided, as a basic premise, that "the $ySStem" controls everything, and that we poor peasants can only cower and pretend to make serious changes.
This is one of those circular bits of reasoning, wherein any attempt to dispute you is defined as either ignorance, part OF "the $ySStem", or just an example of how corrupt & clever "the $ySStem" is. (Like the 100 MPG carburetor, which we KNOW exists, but we don't have because "the $ySStem" is hiding it. We KNOW they're hiding it, because...umm... we don't have it! All roads lead to the nasty "$ySStem" by default.

It must be nice, if you don't have THE answer, to at least be able to make grand, sweeping statements about why you don't have the answer.... *grin*

(why, yes....I DID have a bad few days. Why do you ask?)

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:38 PM

Bill.... Mr Obama may be a consumate politician, but he promised "change". Can you honestly see Mr Obama being allowed to produce anything resembling meaningful change?

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:06 PM

I asked because I care, Bill. (grin)

The $ySStem isn't anywhere near all-pervasive enough to control everything and they don't have enough people in uniform to do that. They just control the few really vital things that they must control...the rest is way too complicated and they don't have enough flunkies to deal with it all. Do you think that the Emperor controlled everything that went on in ancient Rome for gosh sakes? ;-) Not a chance. But he did control the few vital things that he placed real importance on, and the ruling $ySStem we live under does the same, and we as individuals can do about as much about that as the individual Roman could do about the Emperor.

As always, Bill, my personal solution is to live the best life I can while I'm here...in the sense of being loving, unharmful, creative, and basically a good person. I expect little from the political system as it presently exists, I believe in none of the parties, and I spend precious little of my time and energy in regards to them, because that is not what my life is essentially about. It's about the ordinary people and situations I deal with each day.

I talk about politics merely because I find it quite interesting, but I live my life independently of it, because my life is not about politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:08 PM

ALLOWED? By whom? Most of the resistance to change is by Republican refusal to vote for ANYTHING he proposes. We do most things by a constitutional process.
(George Bush tried to do everything by decree.."signing statements"....and was heavily criticized for it...Obama promised to avoid that path and make his administration's changes 'feel' legal and as bi-partisan as possible. He is using that method to 'change' the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, even though it is a sore point with many who want it NOW. He wants it to be VOTED away, like it was voted IN...by Congress.)

And 'change' of the sort we need is not like instant coffee...(if it were that quick, it would probably be as unpalatable AS instant coffee).

Obama inherited a mess....economic, military, cultural...and more. And 99% of the Republicans are doing everything possible to see that he fails...or is 'perceived' to be failing....no matter what it costs the country. They want their damned power and perks back!...and NO lie is too big or distortion too gross to discredit Obama.

Meaningful change?? Geeze...his entire demeanor and procedure is meaningful change!

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:13 PM

I don't doubt that you care, LH... but your disclaimer follows the same pattern: "...They just control the few really vital things that they must control.."

See? Same basic premise..modified to 'answer' my remarks. "They" control...proof? Easy, "it isn't going like I'd like, so 'they' must be preventing it'.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:19 PM

Don't you believe "they" exist bill?

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:25 PM

Naw...Bill seems to believe that the USA is still ruled by Constitutional law...that the two big political parties represent a genuine alternative...that Congress and the courts really work for the people...that the banks can be trusted with your money...etc.

Now that's what I call naivete! It's like continuing to believe in Santa Claus, Robin Hood, and the Tooth Fairy.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:28 PM

Not a good question, Ake... do I believe that there are folks who want THEIR agenda to go forward for financial & personal reasons? Sure...but that is a universal truth of history.
Do I believe that some insidious, secretive 'they' can manipulate my entire society by whim? naawwwww.....

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:35 PM

....if you really think the Santa Claus & Tooth Fairy metaphor is relevant to object to my position, LH, you are proving my point. If not, your strange sense of humor is showing ☺.

...and this flawed Constitutional process is gradually being made to work, after many years of being sneered at by Republicans....give it a little time! Whadda ya' want in 7-8 months?

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:38 PM

(incidently, if I fail to respond ...now or for a day...it is that I have my major craft show in 2 weeks, and I am busy as _ _ _ _....whatever)

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:41 PM

Good night Bill and Hawk. Nice conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:45 PM

There are a few crucial areas one must control to have overall control of a society, Bill. The most important ones are:

1. Military and police power - I assure you that "they" are well in control of that.

2. The creation of money - ditto.

3. The overall control of the mass media - ditto.

4. The overall control of the "justice system" - ditto.

5. The overall control of trade and tax legislation - ditto.

And, yes, "they" do have control of those...primarily through the power of their money, secondarily through the power of violence when it proves necessary (which is what the police and armed forces are there for).

There was a Russian "They" who controlled life in the Soviet Union, but they did it in a more obvious manner. There is a "they" who contol life in China. There is a "they" who control life in North America and in Europe as well. And who are "they"? Well, they're simply the very richest people who are at the very top of the power pyramid. They don't have to get elected to wield this power, they simply have to have the money to manage whoever does get selected and then elected. Do they sometimes fight amongst themselves? Yes. That happens. But for the most part they are content to arrange things in a mutually beneficial cartel so that they all prosper at the expense of the general public, so that wars will be fought when wars are considered desirable, and so that new "enemies" will always be found to provide an excuse for those wars.

You know how FDR ended the depression? Not by his social programs...though those did help people to some extent. No, he ended the depression by pushing the Japanese into a trade corner where they would finally go to war...and then the massive war production kicked in for the USA and that ended the depression. (The Japanese were themselves much to blame for that situation due to their own imperial excesses in China, but Roosevelt did everything he could to force them into a war, and they responded exactly as intended.)

War production is the best way of boosting an economy that can possibly be found...as long as your own land doesn't get invaded and bombed and conquered and you don't lose the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Janie
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:51 PM

I think it possible for him to get us moving in a different direction. I think some sort of healthcare reform bill will make it into law during his administration, and that will be a huge accomplishment. Will it be perfect or even adequate? Very unlikely. Will it be a step in the right direction? Definitely. And once that first step is taken, it is nearly inevitable that we will eventually see national health care coverage in this country.

LH, I don't know whether your view that the intrenched power structure is so formidable that it is not at all possible to change it is cynical or naive, but it is not a rational position and that conclusion is not supported by history.

Large social social change usually occurs incrementally. And that usually a good idea as it gives societies some protection from the anarchy that often results from very rapid and massive social change.

Given the economic calamity that the Obama administration inherited, I think the Obama presidency has thus far been more effective than any of the presidencies of any of the other candidates, regardless of party, would have been. (Any anyone who read any of the pre-election threads knows that I was not wildly enamoured of Obama.)

Kucinich would have completely slammed into a brick wall with Congress by now. McCain, I think, would be foundering for direction. Hilary Clinton would have most likely antagonized too many Congressmen/women with attempts at behind the scene power plays that she did not have the chips to win.

And let us not forget John Q Public. The American people are generally not ready and not willing to accept that the American dream of more, more, more of anything and everything. We want good, affordable health care, great roads to drive on, sidewalks, parks, good school systems, garbage pick-up, curbside recycling, a reasonable social safety net (at least I do) fast and always good service when dealing with any governmental agency, and no new taxes.   We want to continue to increase our standard of living and capacity to consume so we want lots of goods at low prices, manufactured at home by US citizens making good wages. What's wrong with this picture?   It is easy to blame the $ySStem (or however it is that LH spelled it) for selling people a bill of goods. But people also have a huge responsibility that w are not meeting, and that we will not own up to.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: DougR
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:59 PM

One of 'em is right here, Bobert my friend.

We can do little about the decision the Obama administration has made to try the 9/11 terrorists in New York. I think it sucks, but thinking doesn't change things. AG Holder is bound and determined to offer the guilty ones a showplace for their trial and I suppose they will get it.

It's just another bow by the Obama bunch to the ACLU, that stellar patriotic organization that never saw a terrorist it didn't love.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Janie
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:10 PM

There was obviously a lot of conversation happening while I was thinking about and typing my last post.

LH, I disagree with your assertion that FDR deliberately pushed Japan to War to end the Depression. The USA is not, and never has been perfect, but we are not responsible for all the ills of the world, nor are we responsible for the choices that other political entities make.    And I think a good argument could be made that as a political entity, our government is certainly no more concerned with power than any other political entity, and somewhat less corrupt and somewhat more transparent than many other countries. (note the use of "somewhat").

Sometimes you come across as believing that the USA is the "great evil" in the political world. I don't think that is a very accurate paradigm.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:10 PM

Well, the problem isn't Obama but it is very much the $y$tem... The $y$tem is corrupted... The entire idea of having to have 60% majority to have majority rule makes the $y$tem unworkable...

Majority rule should be just that... Gettin' 60% works right into the hands of the corporatists and the status quo...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:16 PM

You make many good points there, Janie. Yes, change is incremental. Yes, Kucinich would have run into a brick wall in Congress...but it's academic, because he'd never had been selected to run for president by the Democrats anyway. He's too far outside the establishment for that.

The entrenched power structure does change bit by bit...mostly because at some point it is forced to deal with harsh realities, and then a shift occurs. The $ySStem is basically in pursuit of irrational and totally amoral objectives, and because of that some of its plans inevitably fail, such as the plan it had for Vietnam and the plan it presently has for Afghanistan. When such a plan is finally seen to utterly fail, then there is an opportunity for some kind of useful change.

John Q Public is definitely part of the problem, just as you say. People in North America are unrealistic in their expectations.

The reason I spell it "the $ySStem" is because it's an alliance between the power of money and the power of fascism, in my opinion...the "SS" part symbolizing fascist authority.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Janie
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:26 PM

Doug R, I see the ACLU, of which I am a "card carrying member" as performing a very, very important service and function. The ACLU does not love terrorists. The ACLU is dedicated to protecting the civil rights and civil liberties supposedly guaranteed to all under our constitution. The work of the ACLU is of utmost importance in protecting those rights for all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: kendall
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:48 PM

Ak, it matters not one bit how good you are. If you cant get elected you are toast. Period. I mostly voted against John McWar and that air head who has no clue what the duties of the VP are.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 11:35 PM

About the FDR thing and Japan, Janie. What I said is no particular implication that the USA is any more evil than any other great power. The Japanese and the Americans had been gearing up for an eventual naval war in the Pacific ever since the 1920s and they both knew it. They played wargames regularly to see how best to fight it, and they engaged in huge naval building programs with an eye to besting or containing the other. This was because the USA and Japan were THE 2 great naval powers in the Pacific Theatre, and they were both busy carving out an overseas empire there. The Americans had bases in the Phillipines and a number of other places, and that greatly concerned the Japanese. The Japanese had acquired some handy bases too after the end of WWI when they were given some former German possessions. This gave them advanced bases at places like Truk Lagoon and the Marianas, and that worried the USA.

So I think the clash was in fact inevitable...just a question of when.

Now, Japan had planned a provocation in China in 1937 which allowed them to launch a terribly brutal war there, and they just kept getting drawn deeper and deeper into the vast Chinese interior. They were also moving into the French colonial areas in what is now Vietnam, taking advantage of French weakness following France's 1940 defeat by Germany.

So the Japanese were destabilizing and provoking the whole East Asian-Pacific area.

From FDR's point of view, he very much wanted to enter WWII so as to defeat Germany, but he had no pretext for doing so, and he had an isolationist public and Congress. The best way to get the country in a mood for war was to get someone else to attack the USA (think 911) and the Germans certainly were not going to do so.

But the Japanese could be provoked into doing so by FDR cutting off their supplies of both oil and steel by a trade embargo. Without the oil and steel, Japan's war in China would stall and their entire military would grind to a halt in about 1 year...they had no domestic sources of oil and steel.

With the embargo in place, war with Japan was utterly inevitable, and Roosevelt knew it. It would result in the Japanese attacking first...somewhere...and that's what he needed to get the American public mad enough to support fighting a global war against both Japan and Germany.

I doubt that he imagined the Japanese had the expertise to launch a large attack on Pearl Harbour....they were badly underestimated in Wsshington...but it didn't really matter where they attacked in the long run. They didn't have a big enough economy to win a war with the USA.

Now, had I been in Roosevelt's place, I might have done the very same thing in 1941. How about that, eh? I don't think it indicates that the USA is particularly evil...it's just standard big power politics and strategy when empires start colliding over spheres of influence.

And it did end the depression, so that was just one more payoff for a policy on FDR'd part that turned out to be a pretty smart and effective policy.

I'm not saying he did it TO end the depression...he had many global strategic reasons for doing it...but I'm saying that it ended the depression in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:21 AM

LH, I agree with some of Margolis' analysis, but not all. Yes, US funding to Pakistan intelligence fostered the Taliban.      

The warlord Ahmed Shah Massoud, a Tajik, was the military leader responsible for driving the Soviets out of Afghanistan, not Osama or the Taliban. The Taliban rolled in when Massoud and co lost control and anarchy descended on Afghanistan. Afghans previously practised a gentler version of Islam, and those in the cities were culturally influenced by western ideas. Afghan women in the cities were educated, could hold jobs and did not wear full body covering as they were forced to do under the Taliban.

The Taliban brought into Afghanistan the extremeism of the Wahabis, the wrap 'em up and chop em uppers. Although claiming to be anti-communist, the Taliban are led by many of the old Afghan communists. Why? Pragmatism and ethnic loyalty. The Taliban and the Communists are both Pashtun-dominated movements, and tribal and ethnic bonds rule.

Margolis does not mention the Hazaras, who were subjected to genocide by the Taliban, their massacred bodies dumped in group graves. The Hazaras were begging the West for intervention prior to the allied invasion, because their young men were being executed, or kidnapped by the Taliban and sent to the front line. The invasion by Allied forces has and effectively saved the Hazaras from ethnic cleansing at the hands of the Taliban, in those areas where the Allied forces have had control.

I wonder what will happen to the Hazaras when the Allied Forces pull out?

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:12 AM

I thought "her duties" were to keep an eye on Russia, Kendall...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 09:14 AM

LH, you are so right but you left out the thing that finally "tore the rag off the bush". FDR finally froze all of Japans assets in this country. They knew they could not win a war with the USA, but to lose face was worse than death to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: meself
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:04 PM

Well - at least, worse than the deaths of how many of their own people - but who among the decision-makers lost their lives? Certainly not Hirohito, who, from what I understand, was not the innocent he has sometimes been made out to be ....

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:23 PM

I think the largest share of the blame falls not on Hirohito, but on the generals who commanded the Japanese Army and who ran the government. Although they professed loyalty to the Emperor, they in fact regarded him as a convenient rubber stamp on decisions that they had already made themselves. There was a long tradition of that in Japan....warlords really ran the system in the feudal period, the Emperor served as a symbolic inspiration for the people. The Emperor could issue a command and be sure it was obeyed, but he generally didn't. The warlords issued the commands.

Now in the case of the Japanese generals who did make the decisions that took Japan to war in China and then against the USA, the UK, and Holland...most of those generals did end up badly. Some were executed (including Yamashita, who really should not have been, in my opinion) and others committed suicide when the war ended, so if punishment is what you desire for them, I think your desire has been met.

Freda, your comments about Massoud, the Wahabis, the Hazara, and so on, are quite accurate. Have you read the book "The Kite Runner"? There's a lot of info in there about the persecutions suffered by the Hazara and the vicious nature of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Yes, Massoud did the most harm to the Soviets. One should not, however, discount the fighting done by Osama's people, the Mujahedin (forerunners of the Taliban), and the Pashtuns...all of whom also fought against the Soviet occupation.

The Hazaras have always been treated badly by the majority Pashtuns...and I expect they will continue to be treated badly in the future. Tribal rivalries go way back in that region.

And, yes, the Wahabis are a very unpleasant outfit. No argument there.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: bluerabbit10
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:40 PM

This country USA became a world power in about 230 years. Capitalism, free markets and those freedoms guaranteed by our Constitution and Bill of Rights made it possible. We are the most generous nation on the planet. We are the first to respond to any world tragedies. Everyone wants to get into this great land, very few want out.
I have not seen one socialistic country thrive without suppressing their masses. Why would anyone want to change from what we have, to what we will become under this administration? Other countries have been around for thousands of years and can't hold a candle to the US.
Socialism never works, history proves it.
I am 77 years old, so maybe I am losing my mind; but I can't understand what most of the population today expects from others. The opportunities are out there, go to them and prosper in this great land.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:49 PM

*tsk*, Little Hawk

"I assure you that "they" are well in control ..".etc...

I'm afraid that being 'assured' of your opinion is not exactly what I require to be convinced. (was there ever any doubt that I thought that way? ☺)

Same with that fairly common analysis of FDR's policies. I have read for many years that it was suspected that FDR manipulated us into war in order to...blah, blah, blah.... but as far as I remember, it was all speculation. (In the case of Bush and Iraq, we have MUCH more direct evidence.)
I can easily see how FDR might have just reacted TO events and made good use of his opportunities without pushing & planning such terrible things. *shrug*... I tend not to **believe** either way until I see hard evidence.



You know, I think see a pattern in certain poster's opinions, and if I wasn't philosophically opposed to wild generalization, *grin*, I might be tempted to assert ...ummm...suggest... that certain posters automatically tend to believe 'most' conspiracy theories and then base many of their other ideas on cynical & contemptuous views of government in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:11 PM

Suppose I told you I'd once lived in a country where I didn't pay for medical care, other than taxes. Everything was paid for by taxes. People who had a higher income and a lower had the same exact care that I did. Medicine also came out of taxes, too.

On the other hand, the doctors didn't have to pay for malpractice insurance and the facility, equipment, and staff was provided for them.

It's a shame it can't happen here. I thought the system worked pretty well for everybody, and I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would not want something similar, other than knee-jerk because of defensiveness of the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:24 PM

Bush, Blair, and other like minded idiots were itching to get into a hassle with Saddam. They should have finished him in Gulf 1, when they stopped fifty miles short of Baghdad, instead of which they shafted the Iraqi dissidents who would have taken control and kept the contry moving forward.

Those people died as soon as Saddam got the coalition out of his hair.

They missed the bus, and fudging up intel reports to justify a second bite at the cherry, was a) ILLEGAL! and b) STUPID!

When will these dumb bastards realise that if you constantly interfere in your neighbour's life, he is one day going to hop the fence and black your eye.

I want MY government to tend to our cabbage patch, bring the boys home to defend it, and leave the neighbours to sort their own hassle.

If we don't provoke them, why would they bother to bomb us?

When was the last time anybody bombed a Swiss city, or a Swedish city?

Hell, even the neutral Irish were never bombed, and the North were only bombed by their own citizens.

In the UK, I am considered right wing, but I suspect that to the right of me I would find Attila the Hun, and beyond him the GOP.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:06 PM

bluerabbit10, you must have watched Andy Rooney last night. He made the same comment that everyone wants to come here. Thats rubbish!

Ok, all you UK catters, lets hear it, why dont you want to come here? Is it because of our awful health care system?

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: bluerabbit10
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:13 PM

Kendall, no I don't watch that network anymore; tho at one time I did watch Rooney...many years ago. I wouldn't say "everyone wants to come here,"; but not many want to leave here, save some holi-wooder-types who have said as much; but are still here.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:29 PM

Do you have any good reason why I should not be cynical and contemptuous of governments in general, Bill? ;-) Virtually every person I talk to or hear talking to someone else around me is cynical and contemptuous of present day governments, and I live in one of the most benign and pleasant countries in the world.

I also see loads of conspiracy theories I don't place any credence in, but I don't bother posting about them on Mudcat. I only post about the ones I'm interested in. One conspiracy theory I place little credence in is the one advanced by the 911 Commission, for example.

Bluerabbit10, you are just repeating the gospel as it was told to you from the time you were in First Grade. It may surprise you that I lived in the USA for 10 years, then I returned to Canada (my original place of birth) and I would rather live in Canada by a factor of 10 to 1. I know a lot of Americans who have moved here because they feel the same way about that as I do. Funny how you never hear about that, isn't it?

You are not the most generous country in the world, and there's really no way of even determining who that would be. There are too many factors involved to make such a statement. What you are is the most heavily armed and aggressive country in the world, and your nation is spending more money on the military than all the other nations in the world put together. It's also consuming more resources than the rest of the world is. I don't call that "generous", I call it wasteful and irresponsible.

Yes, you do live in a great land. So do I. It's called "North America". I'm in the Canadian section, you're in the USA section. It's unquestionably a great land, and it's inhabited by fine people whom I am glad to call my friends, but your government is not a great government.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:47 PM

What I mean is...I like Americans, I just don't like your government, that's all.

The main reasons I would not want to move to the States are:

1. terrible health care system that costs people way too much money
2. terrible political system, run by 2 phony parties
3. a strong government tendency toward authoritarianism
4. dangerous inner cities, high crime rate, corrupt police (in some states and municipalities)

The main things I like about the States are:

1. nice friendly people
2. beautiful geography
3. lots of interesting places to go and things to see
4. very interesting history and culture

I haven't visited the USA since 911 happened, and I know more than a few other people who say the same thing. Things have just gotten a bit too weird south of the (Canadian) border, so I've stayed away.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: bluerabbit10
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:01 PM

You are right LH. Our present day government is not a great government. There's too much of it and its been that way for a long while. It is getting worse by the hour. Government isn't what made America great, our people did. (You may call that a First Grade Cliche, but it is the truth).
I have heard that a Canadian with heart problems, may have to wait a few weeks or months to see "his" Cardiologist. Any truth in that?

My senior class prophecy in High School (1950) was that I would be a forester and be living in Canada...Well I am a forester; but still here. I have nothing against Canada, beautiful country.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:30 PM

There is a smidgen of truth in that thing about how long the person has to wait to see the cardiologist. That is, there have been some such cases. In most cases treatment is prompt and it's good. It all depends, I guess, on exactly which community you're living in and how overloaded the local hospitals are with patients. I had a friend who was diagnosed with a brain tumor, and they dealt with that immediately. He was sent straight to hospital, put under observation for a few days, then operated on. So in his case the medical system moved very fast. Sometimes one hears of a case where treatment is delayed and it gets into the papers here.

So what I am saying is that no system is absolutely perfect, and I wouldn't claim that the Canadian health care system is perfect either, but in most cases it's very good. It remains the most popular public institution in Canada with massively high public support in national polls. That shows that it's doing its job pretty well.

The main point is that your medical treatment here is free after taxes (with the exception of dental work). My yearly taxes for that privilege are less than $1,000 and that's typical. I call that a very good deal. I only wish they'd extend it to dental as well, because that's a major expense for most people.

It seems reasonable that a society would want its people to receive medical care at as little cost as possible. After all, you need a healthy populace to have a healthy society, don't you? It can only benefit society as a whole if people are not driven into bankruptcy by necessary medical care.

You're quite right that what made America great was its people. The same is true of Canada. I find that most people are basically good in their nature, and that seems to be true everywhere I go.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:02 PM

"One conspiracy theory I place little credence in is the one advanced by the 911 Commission"

?? Are you saying that the 9/11 commission's report is no better than a 'conspiracy theory'?...as in flawed, full of holes, biased and carelessly done? (I can't remember, offhand, all the hundreds of posts about that topic in the last several years)

If so, I must ask if you have you read/watched/considered the explications and defenses of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:07 PM

I submit, if you haven't watched/read it, this study. (there was an entire hour-long TV program about it...I have seen it 2-3 times)

Popular Science review of the 9/11 theories

I'm not sure whether those who reject the Commission are 'righties', but there are similarities.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:47 PM

What made America great?
Immigration, expansionism, entrepreneurship, capitalism.
Same holds true for Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:13 PM

I think that what made both the USA and Canada great was a combination of...

1. an incredibly rich and diversified natural environment, full of useful resourcess

2. hardworking people with a pretty strong and democratic set of social institutions which came over from England

3. mercantilism such as you allude to.

It was all accomplished, however, by robbing and pretty much wiping out the Native civilizations that flourished here prior to the 1500s, so a Native American might see it a bit differently.

****

Those who reject the 911 Commission's findings, Bill, are found on both the Right and the Left. They come from every part of the political spectrum. I don't even see what Right or Left have to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:20 PM

As for "Popular Science", it's been a notorious mouthpiece for rightist and just plain mainstream government propaganda ever since I was a little kid. You got a conventional view about anything that is pushed by the mainstream and the government? "Popular Science" will recite it like it was the gospel. I bet they are paid well by their sponsors.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:21 PM

""I have heard that a Canadian with heart problems, may have to wait a few weeks or months to see "his" Cardiologist. Any truth in that?

And Bluerabbit, I have heard that 47 million poor Americans are unlikely ever to see any consultant specialist.

Also, I have heard that Americans who have an on-going health problem are consistently refused health cover.

Also, I have heard that those Americans who DO have health cover pay ten times what I pay in the UK, and still may have to fight the insurance companies for payment if they get sick.

ANY TRUTH IN THAT?

And please DON'T say NO!....WE know it's true.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:55 PM

"..."Popular Science", it's been a notorious mouthpiece for rightist and just plain mainstream government propaganda ..."

Mercy! It never ends. Anything and anyone that put forth viewpoint "X" is labeled as biased...one way or the other.
The study I point to has been WIDELY praised as being clear, focused, complete and as UNbiased as any investigation could be.
I did wonder if you had bothered to read/watch it. *I* watched the films and claims from the other side....like "Loose Change".

ah, well.... back to more woodworking...

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:06 PM

America was founded by the losers and dregs of Europe. I'd say we turned out rather well.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:12 PM

Where are the righties? Probably hiding from Sara! by the by, 100

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: bluerabbit10
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:34 PM

And Bluerabbit, I have heard that 47 million poor Americans are unlikely ever to see any consultant specialist.

Also, I have heard that Americans who have an on-going health problem are consistently refused health cover.

Also, I have heard that those Americans who DO have health cover pay ten times what I pay in the UK, and still may have to fight the insurance companies for payment if they get sick.

ANY TRUTH IN THAT?

And please DON'T say NO!....WE know it's true.

Don T.
.WE know it's true.---Who is "WE?"...Maybe some of those "THEYs" I keep hearing about?

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:45 PM

My wife Jacqui is from England. Believe me, IT IS true.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 10:52 PM

Most viewpoints are biased, Bill. One can be biased...and wrong. Or one can be biased...and right. Or one can be biased...and partly right. I haven't heard from anyone yet who wasn't biased, but what concerns me is whether or not they're right. And I assume that is what would concern you too.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: meself
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 11:12 PM

LH: "I think the largest share of the blame falls not on Hirohito, but on the generals who commanded the Japanese Army and who ran the government", etc.

Exactly what I meant when I said Hirohito was often made out to be "an innocent". Yours is the conventional interpretation. And I repeat: from what I understand, he was not such an innocent; in fact, he was a driving force behind Japanese expansionism from the turn of the century. However, I do not claim any kind of expertise in that area, so ....

LH: "if punishment is what you desire for them, I think your desire has been met"

I don't believe I expressed any desire for punishment for anybody - I simply suggested, in response to kendall's comment, that those who supposedly would rather have died than lose face, were not necessarily the ones who did die - they left that honour to hundreds of thousands of their fellow-citizens. Yes, a few of the bigshots were hanged - how many actually committed suicide? My impression is that it was very few indeed - but that is based is on things I read so long ago that I'm a little unsure of my ground. Time to go googling ....

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 11:34 PM

You may be right about Hirohito, "meself". I can't say for sure. I've heard theories going both ways about it. McArthur correctly gauged the mood of the Japanese nation in 1945 and what would be necessary to get things moving quickly in a positive direction during the occupation, so he did not in any way threaten the person of the Emperor, and that was a wise decision.

A very large number of Japanese military officers (high and low) committed suicide when the war ended. Their honor could not permit them to live, having utterly failed the nation, so they killed themselves. What they felt guilty of was not committing "war crimes", but failure to successfully defend the nation. Taking their own lives would atone for it.

You have to understand the honor system of a nation to understand why they do what they do. They ALWAYS believe they are doing "the right thing". If you understand their honor system, then you can negotiate with them in a productive manner. If you don't....well, then anything can happen.

As an aside....that's part of the problem America is encountering in Afghanistan, I think. They're trying to solve the situation in the wrong way (militarily) and paying no attention to the local culture.

Have you read the book "Three Cups of Tea" by Greg Mortensen? It's about an American ex-mountain climber who's been building schools for poor communities in northern Pakistan and Afghanistan, and it's brilliant. He first of all came to a full understanding of their cultural honor system by living among them, and he has never violated it. Accordingly they love and respect him and he has built schools for many village people who never had schools and he has placed particular emphasis on educating the girls in the villages. The ordinary Muslim people have responded most enthusiastically to the help he is giving, and have been delighted that their girls and boys now have access to proper education. That's the way to fight terrorism. Help people! You cannot bomb them or terrorize them into democracy, but you can educate them into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: meself
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 12:46 AM

According to this PBS site :

"MacArthur lost no time, ordering the arrest of thirty-nine suspects -- most of them members of General Tojo's war cabinet -- on September 11, just over a week after the surrender."

So these top 39 had had a week in which to kill themselves for the sake of their precious honour - but they hadn't. Tojo tried - but only when he found out he was about to be arrested.

Of the 39, seven, including Tojo, were executed.

While in a general way, I agree with you, I do think that sometimes a little too much is made of Japanese 'honour'. I wonder if, among the upper echelons, there weren't as many Nazis as Japanese who committed suicide at the end of the war - most notably, Hitler himself, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 01:49 AM

Oh, there were a reasonably large number of German officers, politicians, soldiers, and civilians who killed themselves in despair during the final days. There were also a great many German women who killed themselves after having been gang-raped by God knows how many drunken Russian soldiers. The end of a war is never a pleasant business for those who find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.

One excellent movie about the fall of the Reich which centers on events in Berlin is "Der Untergang" (The Downfall). I highly recommend it, though it's certainly not a cheerful way to spend a couple of hours.

My father's unit encountered a group of diehard SS men who were unwilling to surrender after VE-Day. They had hunkered down in a fortified defensive position and were intent on continuing to fight, so the Allied forces simply surrounded them at a distance and kept an eye on them. He was only there for a day, and he said no solution had been found at the time he left, so I don't know what eventually happened there.

I've read a number of books written about (or by) various of the Japanese pilots who flew in the war, because the air war has always been of great interest to me. They mentioned incidents of officers who killed themselves when the war ended, though certainly the majority didn't....many of them got roaring drunk instead (depressed drunk, not happy drunk, needless to say). There was great trepidation in the civilian population about what the American "barbarians" would do after the surrender, and the very worst was expected. The sense of relief when it didn't happen must have been immense. The Japanese, in typical fashion, cooperated 100% with the occupation forces as soon as the Emperor instructed them to, so it all went quite smoothly, and that was a very good thing for all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 08:47 AM

"Bias" is what keeps most folks from putting their hands on hot stoves, LH... But we have covered that territory in the past...

Me thinks that "bias" is a good thing when one has a decent grasp of the issues mixed with a good portion of life experience...

Now back to WW II...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: meself
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 11:53 AM

I'm not saying that were not a number of 'honour suicides' or instances of acceptance of the likelihood of honourable suicide (e.g., kamikaze missions) on the part of Japanese 'officers and men'; my point is that there was remarkably little of what would seem to be, according to their own code of honour, 'doing the right thing' among the actual leaders who were responsible for virtually the complete destruction, not to say humiliation, of their country.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 01:14 PM

I agree with you on that. They let greed for power and reckless ambition cause them to lead their nation into disaster. The same was true of the Nazi high command.

One problem with politicians almost everywhere is that once they have set out on a course of action their own pride gets in the way of admitting that the original decision was a bad one. This leads them deeper and deeper into the quagmire until they are finally faced with a total failure of their policy and it all comes crashing down. The ordinary public pays the price for it.

The Japanese military lost face so badly at the end of WWII that they became despised by much of the Japanese public, and serious consideration was given to completely disarming the country for the forseeable future. (I mean doing away with the entire domestic armed forces.) The humiliation of losing a major war can turn a nation powerfully into more mature and productive directions to follow than militarism...and that was demonstrated powerfully in both Germany and Japan in the postwar era.

The victors of a great war, on the other hand, have their romantic illusions of military glory preserved intact, and they may soon embark on further reckless military adventures in a postwar era. We've seen more than a bit of that since 1945, I think... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 07:10 PM

Yeah, and we're still seeing it LH.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 01:53 PM

LH, I agree with you 100%. Militarism has become a curse in the US and elsewhere.

It's the mindset of people unquestionably in lockstep without really thinking about it.
Most inductees don't have violent feelings of aggression. They are "just following orders".

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 01:55 PM

Bobert, the Righties are all around us. They carry guns to town hall meetings. They defend gun ownership for automatic pistols, they support fascist-thinking ideologies and they don't follow reason but are emotionally committed to their ideas because they "think with their gut".

They are here on Mudcat, never fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:03 PM

We also have our share of left wingnuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: kendall
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:18 PM

Name one.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: bluerabbit10
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 07:44 AM

Quite a few of them were elected to House of Representatives, Senate, Governorships, State Legistlatures, and so on....during past election.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:24 AM

COO-EE-EE ~~ HERE I AM!

The USA is indeed a great achievement.

I have a much-loved sister-in-law who has lived 50 years in Chicago and brought up a family there. I have cousins in DC & NY & California; and dear and close friends in California, Montana, NY.... I love being there, have always been treated with the utmost of hospitality and kindness and courtesy and made to feel greatly at home, in the land which was, as someone says above, founded largely by the sweat of the rejected of Europe.

On the other hand, there is no gainsaying the truth of the assertion I have made before that, looked at from another POV, as LH has partly hinted above, The Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave was founded on a firm & unshakeable basis of genocide and slavery.

Last time I posted that on a thread, Ebbie denounced it as 'piffle!'. She can say it again if she likes; but there will be those among you who will recognise the truth of it: even if it is not necessarily the WHOLE truth...

♥♫❤Michael❤♫♥

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Ringer
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 09:07 AM

'[Rightists] carry guns to town hall meetings. They defend gun ownership for automatic pistols, they support fascist-thinking ideologies and they don't follow reason but are emotionally committed to their ideas because they "think with their gut".'

D'you just mean you don't agree with 'em, Stringsinger?

As for this "rightie", he despises fascism for exactly the same reason he despises socialism: for its collectivism, its statism. And he's quite as capable of using and following reason as you are. It's just that his reason leads to conclusions different from yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 02:51 PM

MtheGM, I don't recall saying 'piffle' to that, but I accept that I did.

I continue to maintain that you are mistaken in saying "The Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave was founded on a firm & unshakeable basis of genocide and slavery."

If you are saying that genocide and slavery were factorsbased on it.

First, the US inherited slavery from its founders - who were primarily English. The fact that the English discontinued it long before the US did does not really indicate a virtue on their part. After all, the English economy as a whole was not affected by the loss of slavery; it was pretty much confined to the slave traders' being out of a lucrative part of their job.

As for genocide: bad as it was, killing all the people you could in the pursuit of what you wanted was not a new thing in the world, was it, England?

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 04:15 PM

Amen, Ebbie! "genocide and slavery." were 'elements' which existed fairly widely in those times, and which, sadly, had de facto not de jure threads in various early American history.... as they did in many cultures.

It is terribly important not to 'paint with a broad brush' when trying to explain things about history...and almost every generalization requires 10 times as many qualifications and disclaimers in order to approach fairness. I'm sure Michael realizes that, but it is so easy avoid long, tedious screeds which few will read here.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 05:15 PM

My reply, so far as I recall Ebbie, went

PIFFLE!? dear Ebbie ~ Why,
You will make me cry.
Piffle?
Sniffle!

... to which you replied simply & charmingly

:)

{Which is not to say, Ebbie & Bill, that I fail entirely to take your points; my requotation of the formulation was hedged about with "from one pov" &c. But it were surely idle to deny that these phenomena were part of the complex melting pot of how America became what it is.}

♥♫❤Michael❤♫♥

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 10:25 PM

Revisionist history, Little Hawk.

FDR's programs such as the WPA and the CCC—along with the establishment of the Securities and Exchange Commission and the imposition of regulations on the excesses of Wall Street had pretty well put an end to the Depression, and some of the causes of it, which Reagan went about reversing, which was largely responsible for getting us into the current mess.

The war was a separate issue. The Depression was well on the wane by the onset of the 1940s. I was a little kid at the time, but I knew what was going on.

There was considerable outrage over the fact that the United States was shipping scrap metal to Japan, who were in turn using it to make weapons with which they were savaging the Chinese. FDR stopped trade with Japan—as had many other countries.

Japan sent a diplomatic mission to Washington, D. C. with the ostensible intention of trying to talk the U. S. into reopening trade. While the Japanese diplomats were smiling and bowing in D. C., the Japanese navy attacked Pearl Harbor.

Feint and sucker-punch!

The idea that FDR drove the Japanese into attack us is a spurious piece of history, much favored by the American Far Right in an effort to besmirch FDR's accomplishments.

As I said, I was a little kid at the time, but I knew what was going on. And looking back on it, I consider the original source of the claims that FDR ended the Depression, not through his programs and regulations, but by causing the Japanese to attack us, thereby getting us into the war. Granted, the Japanese were pissed at the embargo, but the attack on Pearl Harbor had been in their play-book for a long time. Part of their agenda. They were going to do it anyway.

The Republicans LOVE that bit of spurious "history." Not unlike their constant attempts to blame Obama for the current economic mess.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 03:58 AM

The only time I am a 'Righty' is when I am writing a letter. I envy people who are ambidextrous.

Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties???
From: Green Man
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 10:16 AM

It seems that your politics and ours are similar. No matter who we elect we still get shyte.

The real righties are in hiding in the military-industrial complexes that define and run our countries.

They do what they like, they sell what they want to whom-soever can pay
the price.

They destroy our environment and they forget that when everything turns to shit they won't have anywhere to hide either.

Our respective Government's have drawn the teeth of the police and the judiciary using a long campaign of disinformation, black PR and of course the universal standby bullshit.

In Blighty we have a Guy called Murdoch who want to take over the media. Control the media and you control the government.

Anyway, it seems you guys over there have more problems (and potential targets) than you can handle. You arent the only ones that are in trouble.

The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.....