BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady

Subject: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 03:03 PM

Is this what we in the Uk have to put up with.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/8387110.stm

I think this lady is very brave. What I don't like is the poeple who are attacking her and I think this is where the problem is.

Please keep this sensible and no flaming or inciting.

It worries me much when I see these sort of things happening.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 03:28 PM

Worriesome and sad indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: jacqui.c
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 03:44 PM

Good for her - intolerance exists wherever we go these days. To my mind these guys just showed the bullying tactics used by all fanatics - they are not ever going to listen to reason because it doesn't suit their agenda.

It's people like this lady who set the example for the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 03:49 PM

Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 03:57 PM

"Please, no inciting," you say, Villan. But I regret to say there is a prominent thread in Islamic thought who are going to find your opening question, as to whether this is 'what we ... have to put up with', in itself an incitement — probably not a numerous, but a very vocal and prominent thread. It is, as we have discovered both on this site and more generally, impossible to mention this upfront & evident Islamic tendency without being accused of incitement — or worse; both by themselves (represented here by the Baroness's attackers and {if, as some of them insisted, different, the egg-thrower[s]}), & by confused well-meaners in our society at large.

I now sit back & wait for it.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 04:04 PM

Sitting back is the problem MtGM

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 04:10 PM

I take your point — but I think you appreciate I didn't mean the phrase in quite that sense...

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 04:21 PM

The incident only reinforces my image of Islam as misogynistic.
The impression I get is that she doesn't conform to their stereotype, ot the meek obedient, covered up, little woman.
Note how upset they got when she tried to quote the Koran to them!

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 04:26 PM

I understand MtGM :-)

This country needs to support this lady. She is trying to represent the more moderate people of her religion.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 04:31 PM

Protesters throwing eggs is not a new phenomenon. It has happened several times in my lifetime without incurring the eighteous indignation we see here from The Villan.

What is, however, worthy of comment for me is that "this lady" (Baroness Warsi as it happens), for whom I usually have little time, acquitted herself well in this instance.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 04:48 PM

How do foreigners (if she is one) become peers in England?

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 04:55 PM

She wouldn't be a peer if she were not a British subject !

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 04:55 PM

>without incurring the eighteous indignation we see here from The Villan<

Peter
I am concerned about my country and we don't need this sort of thing happening.

If you think its OK then that is up to you, but I don't like to see it happening.

Please lets not get personal or I will ask Joe to close this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 05:02 PM

Her point that Britain needs to "be very clear" about the difference between the two elements is a good start. If the extremest elements are identified (not by name, of course, but by actions) and refuted it should be informative to the general public.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 05:06 PM

This sort of behavior is hardly unique to Muslims. When people suggest, as some in this thread appear to be doing, that it is typical of Muslims, they are engaging a form of intolerance themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for these people.
From: Mysha
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 05:21 PM

Hi,

Are you all talking about a Lady coming down to see the masses, acting surprised to find people there who disagree with her, and calling those protesters "idiots" because apparently she found out only now that you can't reason with a mob?

Or are you talking about masses still going through the same ruts of protest, like throwing things that won't do serious harm, drowning out the voice of (the) opposition by shouting, and denouncing the persons and views of the opposition, that never seem to bring their points across?

Bye,
                                                                  Mysha

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 05:22 PM

That is what I'm gettng at. If the general public becomes fully aware that there is an element in the Muslim world that is worrisome to the greater Muslim populace, I should think that the mainstream public would become more empathic and less fearful and judgmental. God knows we have our own extreme elements.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 06:00 PM

In throwing eggs at a politician these blokes were in a way going native, and adopting a British tradition.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 06:15 PM

Baroness Warsi is British. She also supports Polygamous Muslim marriages which are recognised as legal under British immigration law. They also cost the taxpayer a minimum of £8 million every year.

Although polygamy is illegal for the indigenous population, the successive Tory and Labour administrations have made an exception for Muslims. Polygamous marriages are officially recognised in Britain provided the weddings were "legal in the countries where they took place."

This means that a Muslim male can marry up to the four wives he is allowed under Islamic law in a Muslim country such as Pakistan. He is then able to legally bring them all to Britain.

Countries in which polygamous marriages take place which are recognised as legal by British law include Pakistan, Nigeria and India.The practice is said to have become commonplace, at least among Kashmiris, a group that accounts for most Pakistanis in Britain. Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad practised polygamy.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 06:17 PM

Sayeeda Warsi

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:12 PM

Is the 8 million a direct cost, Tunesmith? I remember reading, when the Fundamentalist Mormon group was in the news, it was said that many of the multiple 'wives' qualified for and received checks from the state, based on their income.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 07:54 PM

The BIGGEST problem in the world today is Exremism - Wether in Religion , Politics , or even music !

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:17 PM

I can't see Kashmir being the source for "most of the Pakistani population of Great Britain". Any back-up for that?
Ross

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Mysha
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:17 PM

Yes, and in the weather! First we have summer in October, then in England they get flooded, now it feels like I'd better check the wet side-walk isn't frozen in the morning. There ought to be a song about it.

Bye,
                                                                  Mysha

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:22 PM

Sorry for my ignorance of British matters, but I would really like to understand how the peerage works. Ms. Warsi, apparently, is the daughter of a bed manufacturer, an ex-lawyer, and a conservative member of the House of Lords. How did she get to be a peer?

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Mysha
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:49 PM

Hi,

Well, it appears that she lost the elections, like the people saying that they didn't want her in parliament. So her party asked that she be made a peer, so she could get into parliament anyway, in the house of lords. The prime minister can award such titles (Baron-ess), and does so on recommendation from his own party, and sometimes on recommendation from the opposition as well.

(The UK wanted to get rid of a system where persons who were not chosen by the people got to vote in parliament. I'm beginning to get the impression that the change was not completely successful.)

Bye,
                                                                   Mysha

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 08:57 PM

"Baroness Warsi is British. She also supports Polygamous Muslim marriages which are recognised as legal under British immigration law."
I would hope that in the name of equality British immigration law would also allow these women to take on four husbands. Now that would be progress!

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 09:10 PM

Thanks for the info, Mysha.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:32 AM

There are two sorts of peers Michaelr, there are those whose forefathers were granted a title for services to a monarch, and the title continues to pass down through the family line.
These are called hereditory peers. Hereditory peerages are very rare now.
Those like Baroness Warsi, who are awarded peerages for service to their country, or political party, are called life peers, and their title dies with them.
It has long been a way of rewarding your cronies, and big party donors. It is also given to some people who really deserve it, [not enough though!]
In the case of Baroness Warsi, and others, it was felt that her input would be so valuable to the British government, that she was given her peerage, in order to give her a public voice.
They did the same with a guy called Peter Mandelson, but I still haven't heard any good reason why he was elevated.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 06:39 AM

I mean the award of NEW hereditory peerages BTW

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:43 AM

As far as I know the only hereditary peerage awarded since 1964 was by Margaret Thatcher to Willy Whitelaw, a man with five daughters. This meant the title would die with him, but it was deliberately done to demonstrate that hereditary titles were still constitutional. Mrs Thatcher was then able to award her husband a baronetcy which duly passed to her son.

If anyone knows of another example, I'd be interested to hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 10:56 AM

Seems a bit like the Eddi Reader thread to me. ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 11:09 AM

Lizzie, you naughty woman - stop it right now - or I will have to send the Torbay Nobbers round to your house. That is a fate worse than death.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: romanyman
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 12:15 PM

michaelr, its good old cash mate, make enough cash and hey presto you can be one of the landed gentry, make more and yous a peer of the realm, simple init, all of bent as nine bob notes

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 12:29 PM

Modern Life Peers are not 'landed gentry.' Being given a title doesn't come with a few thousand acres, just better tables at restaurants etc.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 01:41 PM

Last week the Prom Queen in Carlton California was gang raped at the prom event in front of spectators.

It worries me much when I see these sort of things happening.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 01 Dec 09 - 05:05 PM

For the historical record - I've just remembered that Margaret Thatcher also gave George Thomas, retired Speaker of the House of Commons, an hereditary peerage at about the same time as Whitelaw's. He became Viscount Tonypandy but, like Whitelaw, he would have no male heirs so the title would die with him. Rather cunning of her, I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:32 PM

For the record Thomas and Whitelaw got their viscountcies in 1983, and the title of Earl of Stockton was created for Harold Macmillan in 1984 = all hereditary. The first two came after many years in which no hereditary titles were conferred and were seen at the time by some commenntators as a manoevre by Margaret Thatcher to pave the way for a baronetcy for her husband (which would subsequently pass to her worthless son Mark). Denis Thatcher duly got his baronetcy and Mark duly inherited the title.

All this is now irrelevant in terms of House of Lords membership. Legislation passed in 1999 when the hereditaries were reduced to 92, ensured that inherited titles would not qualify for sitting in or voting in the House of Lords.

Subject: RE: BS: I really feel very sorry for this lady
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 02 Dec 09 - 07:39 PM

Thanks - I'd forgotten the Macmillan example. Before Margaret Thatcher revived hereditary titles it had seemed that the British Constitution was proceeding along its evolutionary path and allowing the hereditary principle to atrophy. A clear exanple of this was that when the Queen's sister married, her husband was immediately given an hereditary title (Lord Snowdon). After the election of the first Wilson government in 1964, it was stated that there would be no more such elevations and this situation continued under the Heath government. When the Queen's daughter married, her husband did not receive a peerage and at one point the fourth in line to the throne (Peter Phillips) was a commoner. Then Mrs Thatcher resurrected what most people thought was an archaic practice......

One final (pedantic) point - I remember the Toronto Globe and Mail pointing out a few years ago that if the UK moved to an elected upper chamber, Canada would be the only country left with one whose members were appointed. How embarassing said the Globe and Mail.