BS: Obama caught in blatant lying

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: kendall
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 07:51 AM

It is so obvious what the republicans are up to! They are going to fight tooth and nail just as they did against Social Security, Medicare, and every other piece of legislation that benefits the working man. Their hope is to create enough discord to get them back into power and they don't give a damn how they do it.

As bad as I dislike Rush Limbaugh I have to admire his honesty when he said "I WANT OBAMA TO FAIL". Sure he's a fat head and a drop out but he says what he thinks.The problem is, he doesn't think! he reacts like a snail when you pour salt on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:41 AM

I read them, but I was also hearing, in my memory, the things he invariably said after every instance when I heard him say anything positive about the public option, which was that while it would be nice, it wasn't critical.

However, having said all of that, I have to retract what I said about Obama not campaigning on the public option. Apparently he did campaign on it in a few specific contexts, like in Iowa and in front of groups like Family Planning. I just heard some excerpts on Olbermann. Looks like Obama stuck his foot in his mouth in a very big way when he said he didn't campaign on the public option.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 10:19 PM

If anyone took the time to read the references cited in the first post (and in other places) they would note that (1) Obama did campaign for the public option -- it is in his campaign literature -- that's what is referred to as your campaign where I come from -- and (2) that he lied about it. Period. Make of it what you will. I think it is part of a strange failure of nerve (or maybe there never was any nerve).   


yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 08:26 PM

You have a better plan, Ake, ol' son??? I mean, let's bring a little reality into the discussion... The USA has a terribly messed up system of democracy... Well, it really isn't democracy at all, for that matter... It gives sparsely populated states, which tend to be more conservative, equlity with heavily populated states... A single voter in Utah has 77 times as much say in the Senate as does Amos in California...

So, what are ya going to do that isn't evolutionary except to look around and see that we are very slowly changing attitudes... It's a ying-yang kinda thing, Ake... We tried revolution in the 60's and had it stuffed right back in our faces... Okay, we did make progress but even then it was evolutionary...

Like I said, if you have any better ideas on how the progressive movement can jolly things along I'm sure that alot of US would love to hear them...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 07:33 PM

Obamaphobia in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:58 PM

Excuses Excuses Bobby, truth and justice don't evolve

Ye need smeddum tae be richt coorse.....or richt kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:40 PM

The problem here really has nuthin' to do with lies but everything to do with the way people view the real world...

BB, as we know, only sees black and white... That is why he supported George Bush...

Other folks see the world in less absolute terms and therefore don't expect Obama to be able to achieve everything he campiagned on... I mean, given the fact that we do have a democracy and over 500 people putting their hands in the mix, it is unreasonable to expect one man to be able to rule absolutely...

But Bush tried... Obama, on the other hand, did say that he was going attemp to restore transparency and for those of us who are capable of seeing shades of gray, he has done a purdy good job considering the shambles of a country he inherited...

Face it, there is no magic wand... Things take time... It took Bush 8 years to scrww the country up as badly as he did so it may very well take that long to restore it back to health...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:38 PM

"...I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"

*grin* He brought it...it's just that the 'partisans' on the other side didn't want to play. They seem to have some sort of pact to vote and obstruct anything he offers.

You really think 'bi-partisanship' means letting your opponents override all attempts to do anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:13 PM

Here is perhaps a way of saying in fewer words what I was trying to say in my last post...

Bi-partisan doesn't mean giving Republicans everything they want. It just means meeting them half way, and Obama met them far beyond halfway.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:08 PM

Look what the cat dragged in: a few disappointed Republicans.

Turnabouts fair play. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:05 PM

It's not necessary for the Republicans to accept what is offered in order for Obama to be making a bipartisan effort. All that is needed is for Obama to meet them halfway, which he more than did.

If the Republicans were not willing to compromise along side of the compromises that the Democrats were making, that is their fault and not Obama's. One can only go halfway and still be making compromises. Beyond halfway is not compromise, but capitulation. Obama capitulated because he gave away far more than half of what the pro health care reform constituency wanted in an effort to court Republican votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,ArtBrooks in Pittsburgh
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:59 PM

Very true, pdq, except (of course) what is going through the Senate and House are two very different bills, and neither has much to do with Mr. Obama's ideas as stated during his campaign. Calling either "ObamaCare" is pretty silly. Obama is generally a centrist, and the compromises made by Congressional leadership with the left wing of the Democratic party and a few recalcitrant DINOs in order to get legislation through are far from anything he ever advocated. BTW, Rep Cao (R) Louisiana voted for the House bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:57 PM

"but you are not entitled to your own facts."

And niether are you.



Obama gave NOTHING to the Republicans- the compromises from the liberal "ideal" were made to get the DEMOCRATS willing to pass it, and even then it required multiple bribes ( pork projects) that contribute nothing to Health Reform, but increase the costs. Present report by CBO is that the present bills will NOT meet the "no increased debt" that Obama claims is required.

The bills that are being considered are the choices: IF there are changes, it would be to bring both bills into a common one. Please tell me how EITHER will meet the claims that Obama made, or do you imply he will not sign whatever comes out of Congress??

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Lox
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:57 PM

"Absurd, since ObamaCare got absolutely no Republican votes."

Indeed. He made the fundamental mistake of believing that the Repubs give a shit and that there might be some mileage in negotiating with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: pdq
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:48 PM

"...since one of the problems that many of us have with the current bills before both houses is that Obama went much too far in trying to have a bipartisan bill. He gave away much of what his base wanted in order to court Republican votes."

Absurd, since ObamaCare got absolutely no Republican votes.

The endless changes were forced by reluctant Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:44 PM

beardedebruce, you are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. The fact is that in the case of three of the things you have listed, you are lying, or at least spreading someone else's lies as though they were true.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM

"If you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase a dime!"

NOT according to either of the bills. FALSE already

Neither bill has been passed into law, and Obama hasn't signed a health care reform law yet, so you're the one who is lying in this instance.


"Our administration will be the most transparent one ever. Our discussions about revisions to health care will be televised on C-Span for all to see."

FALSE already

This one is partially true (and so therefore, only partially false).



"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"

FALSE already

Since neither bill has been passed into law, and we don't know what the final bill will look like, and since Obama hasn't signed any health care reform law yet, you're the one who is lying in this instance as well.


"I'm going to change how Washington operates! I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"

FALSE already

You're the one who is lying in this instance as well, since one of the problems that many of us have with the current bills before both houses is that Obama went much too far in trying to have a bipartisan bill. He gave away much of what his base wanted in order to court Republican votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM

CarolC, you are entitled to have whatever opinion you wish. Please allow the rest of us that priviledge.





"whichever liars beardedbruce and DougR get their copy pasts from. "

A pity you never listened to Obama's speeches or words.




This whole thread is a statement that the source of our copy pastes (OBAMA) IS a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,ArtBrooks in Pittsburgh
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM

This is a representative democracy, not a dictatorship. Mr. Obama has some influence over what the Democrats in Congress propose, but really doesn't control them. His earlier statements in the context of the campaign clearly indicate that he believed he had more control than he really does, but blaming him for what ends up in, or omitted from, legislation indicates a sad lack of understanding of the system. One could easily argue either side of the four items BB has mentioned, although it seems to me that the entire discussion resembles the kind of sour-grapes attitude that the Republican "leadership" has shown in the past few days when it has begun to appear that the president might actually pull a partial win out against their complete stonewalling.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:38 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:37 PM

Which of the following do you want to blame on Bush??

For at least three of them, there's nothing to blame anyone for, since none of the three have any relationship to reality. They are fabrications made up by whichever liars beardedbruce and DougR get their copy pasts from.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:34 PM

My own opinion about whether or not Obama is living up to my expectations of him is that he definitely is. I expected him to be no Kucinich, and he is certainly no Kucinich. Having said that, he's a far sight better than the people we had in his place in the previous eight years (in my opinion).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM

Was that "me" bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:32 PM

I said NOTHING about it being painless. The point nder discussion here is that Obama made statements about what he and his administration would do, from the start, and he has failed in 11 months to do what he said he would.


Which of the following do you want to blame on Bush??

"If you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase a dime!"

"Our administration will be the most transparent one ever. Our discussions about revisions to health care will be televised on C-Span for all to see."

"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"

"I'm going to change how Washington operates! I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"



Waiting for the answer....

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:29 PM

"Bruce is, of course, completely free to say anything, true or not, that will spread around his bitterness and acerbiv dislike about all things Obama. And likely to do so, as well.

But that does not make his statements judicious, even-tempered, fair-minded, or accurate."



True- as is the fact that YOU ( Amos) were completely free to say anything, true or not, that will spread around your bitterness and acerbic dislike about all things Bush. But that does not make your statements judicious, even-tempered, fair-minded, or accurate.



If you don't like what I say, try finding facts that refute the statements, instead of attacking me. You might find that your idol has feet of clay.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:22 PM

I'm curious- did anyone here think that cleaning up the mess the president inherited would be painless? I've said a number of times that from to time we will be disappointed, that from time to time our government will have to have a 'do-over, that from time to time our government will make mistakes...

bb and others, surely you are not ignoring the situation President Obama inherited? Everything from the financial collapse with its concomitant disasters, to two wars, and on and on. If we listed everything that had gone wrong according to its unprecedented-ness inthose eight years it would be a long list indeed.

I repeat: Did anyone here think it would be painless? How naive.Far from being painless it has elements if impossibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:19 PM

Many are, McGrath, but not because of any health care reform laws (we don't have one yet), but rather because the insurance companies are either kicking them off the rolls of the insured, or because the insurance companies are jacking up the cost of their premiums so high they can't afford it any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:17 PM

"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"
FALSE already

Are Americans now compelled to give up the health insurance they have?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:13 PM

Bruce is, of course, completely free to say anything, true or not, that will spread around his bitterness and acerbiv dislike about all things Obama. And likely to do so, as well.

But that does not make his statements judicious, even-tempered, fair-minded, or accurate.

The great tragedy of Obama's promise of bi[partisan process is that when he tried it he got mugged by bitter minded naysayers and mindless obstructionists who would rather do anything than improve conditions for the nation.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:00 PM

Well, you can't say it without lying.

You can certainly say he hasn't fulfilled some of his promises yet. But you can't say without lying that he won't fulfill his promises during his term. In the case of the openness, you can't say he hasn't fulfilled that one either without lying. You can say that he has only partially fulfilled that one and be telling the truth, but that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:57 PM

Wrong.


"He gets to serve out his entire four year term before you can say he won't deliver on his promises. "

When Obama states he will do something FROM THE BEGINNING of his term, and fails to do so, I don't need to give him another minute.


YOU can't tell me what I can say.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:52 PM

You gave him 11 months!?!

LOLOL!!!!!


He gets to serve out his entire four year term before you can say he won't deliver on his promises.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:50 PM

Looks like we crossposted.


"If you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase a dime!"

NOT according to either of the bills. FALSE already

Neither bill has been passed into law, and Obama hasn't signed a health care reform law yet, so you're the one who is lying in this instance.


"Our administration will be the most transparent one ever. Our discussions about revisions to health care will be televised on C-Span for all to see."

FALSE already

This one is partially true.



"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"

FALSE already

Since neither bill has been passed into law, and we don't know what the final bill will look like, and since Obama hasn't signed any health care reform law yet, you're the one who is lying in this instance as well.


"I'm going to change how Washington operates! I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"

FALSE already

You're the one who is lying in this instance as well, since one of the problems that many of us have with the current bills before both houses is that Obama went much too far in trying to have a bipartisan bill. He gave away much of what his base wanted in order to court Republican votes.


So, my answer to "of the promises you've listed there, how many do we know he won't deliver? "

the answer is ALL OF THEM.

You're the one who is blatantly lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:47 PM

You (as president) cannot bring bipartisanship to Congress or to Washington if the seated members of Congress are completely unwilling to engage in it. And they are unwilling to do so. They are simply playing their usual destructive political games...as the "divide and conquer" $ySStem rolls merrily on its way.

Everyone's hidden taxes increase yearly as the great inflation machine run by the banks rolls on and real money declines in value. All politicians lie about what is happening with that (except for the odd maverick like Dennis Kucinich).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:44 PM

If Congress said tha the Easter Bunny would solve our problems, YOU seem to think that proof the problems are solved.

Obama made statements about what he would do. I gave him more than 11 months- AND HE HAS NOT DONE WHAT HE SAID HE WOULD DO.

You are the one speculating- I am making a statemnt based on observed actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:37 PM

I can't answer your question, beardedbruce. I don't get my information from the New York Times.

So you're just speculating about the future with some of the promises you say he won't deliver.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:35 PM

"If you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase a dime!"

NOT according to either of the bills. FALSE already




"Our administration will be the most transparent one ever. Our discussions about revisions to health care will be televised on C-Span for all to see."

FALSE already



"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"

FALSE already




"I'm going to change how Washington operates! I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"

FALSE already






So, my answer to "of the promises you've listed there, how many do we know he won't deliver? "

the answer is ALL OF THEM.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:32 PM

Of the supposed "lies" that Bush is accussed of, HOW MANY were what he SAID, and how many the NYT rewording to make it false??


How many do I expect Obama to deliver? As few as he can.

Obama was supposed to post bills for review- FALSE
Obama was supposed to have OPEN debate- FALSE
Obama makes claims when he does NOT have a bill- and BOTH the bills that have passed WILL NOT DO what Obama has stated.


Obama DID pay off his UAW supporters, at the cost of the investors in GM.

Obama keeps making statements that sound wonderful, and then does NOTHING to make them true.


What we "know" is that Obama is following most of the Bush policies that many here were complaining about- and NOT getting any criticsm for it.
If Bush was Black, and Obama White, I would think that many here are racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 04:21 PM

beardedbruce, of the promises you've listed there, how many do we know he won't deliver?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:36 PM

Uh-huh. Possibilities, I suppose. I don't believe for a moment that it's really about Al Qaeda, though. Al-Qaeda's just a convenient excuse for maintaining a perpetual state of war somewhere...anywhere that's handy. It's the same general procedure outlined in George Orwell's "1984"...the maintenance of a perpetual state of war by Oceania (an alliance of Great Britain and North America) in a variety of distant third world places against an indefinable "enemy" who can never be completely defeated and eliminated. Nothing could be more convenient than an enemy like Al Qaeda who can simply be moved wherever the next war is planned and appear magically wherever required, since they do not represent any specific government or nation.

Kind of like fighting international Communism. You can do it anywhere you please. Since the Soviet Union's demise, new international enemies have had to be found to feed the voracious belly of the military-industrial beast, and they were found in very short order. The much bally-hooed international "Peace Dividend" that we were all promised after the fall of the Berlin Wall never came.

If all the Muslims in the world somehow vanished, another new enemy would have to be found to take their place. My guess is that it would be the Chinese and various other orientals, probably, but that would be far less convenient (and far more dangerous) than a mysterious and hidden outfit like Al Qaeda...people who possess little real firepower and very little manpower, but who can be conjured up laughing evilly like Snidely Whiplash whenever it suits the purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:36 PM

"Some people may have thought he was promising a public option,"

Well, if liberals can take the statement " IF we don't stop Saddam's nuclear program he will have WMD in the future." and read it as IRAQ HAS NUKES NOW!!!, then you have to forgive those of us who hear Obama say something and then NOT do what he said he would do, upon winning the election.

Not much room for interpretation in

"If you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase a dime!"

"Our administration will be the most transparent one ever. Our discussions about revisions to health care will be televised on C-Span for all to see."

"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"

"I'm going to change how Washington operates! I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:12 PM

Notice the air attack on a site in Yeman? I THINK it will be Iran, but it might well be Somalia or Yeman- all in search of Al-Quida.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 12:24 PM

BB, where do you expect Obama's next war to be? Iran? Or Pakistan? Just wondering what your prediction might be. Those 2 appear more likely to me than any other possibilities if one is to pick hypotheticals.

Neil is quite correct that a true progressive (such as Dennis Kucinich) cannot win the presidency in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Raptor
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 09:37 AM

Lest see... Obama's guilty of trying to fix the United States healthcare.

Bush put the world into a depression by starting wars that cost billions of dollars and killed thousands of people looking for weapons of mass destruction and Osama bin Ladden, niether of which they will ever find.

Please refer to Katlaughings post it's right on the money!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 08:10 AM

"I never thought of President Obama as a progressive... A true progressive (Dennis Kucinich) could never win the presidency in this country."

            While I wouldn't have any trouble voting for Dennis Kucinich, I didn't vote for Obama because I thought he would turn out to be a Move-On.org puppet, due to the way his campaign was financed, and the people he surrounded himself with. So far, I've been pleasantly surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 07:30 AM

Politics is the art of the possible.
(Forgot source of quotation)

Wasn't it R.A. Butler? (Or possibly Iain MacLeod)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:56 AM

DougR, of the promises you've listed how many do we know he won't follow up on?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Janie
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:54 AM

What Carol and Neil said.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:51 AM

I should amend my last post. Whenever he would say positive things about a public option, he would then say that while it would be nice, it wasn't critical. Some people may have thought he was promising a public option, but I could tell he was softening us up to accept a health care bill without one.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:40 AM

Obama has consistently downplayed the importance of a public option. He never campaigned on it.