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From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 26 Feb 10 - 09:36 PM Thanks, Lighter! I wonder where I got "1850s" from (???) Good call. Gibb |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:01 PM The job-function categories also leave something to be desired. One needs no further proof than the fact that certain chanties were used for more than one job. A lot depends on the speed of the job at that time. For instance, most halyard chanties have two "pulls" per each refrain. And chanties with just one pull often get filed separately under the category of "short drag" chanties. However, it seems that chanties with one pull –perhaps for example "Sally Racket"-- could also be used at halyards, too. It would just mean that the pace would go faster (or for a lighter hoist, i.e. one of the higher yards). So whether one did one pull per refrain at a fast pace, or two pulls at a slower pace, it would amount to a comparable number of "pulls per minute." Still, most halyard chanties had two pulls. I imagine these as the "proper" "chanties" because I think that was probably the same form as for cotton-screwing. The form was: (Solo) Lift him up and carry him along (Refrain) FIRE maringo, FIRE away (Solo) Stow him down where he belong (Refrain) FIRE maringo, FIRE away The turn of the screws, or the fall of the pick ax, or the heaving of coal (if that's what firemen did!)…i.e. the forceful action that needed coordinating, occurred on the capitalized syllables. The key trait to the form was the call and response and these moments of action. If one thinks with that criterion in mind, one can see across the job-function categories. I will explain. Take "Hieland Laddie" as a cotton stowing chant: (Solo) Was ya never down in New York Town? (Refrain) BONnie laddie, HIElan laddie (Solo)Walking Broadway up n down? (Refrain) BONnie hielan LADdie o We know the Scots song "Hieland Laddie" as a march – though I'm not sure when it first came that way. In any case, it is as a march that it is used, as a walkaway or capstan chanty. However, it could not have been like a march when the Mobile Bay gents used it to screw cotton – that's way too fast. You can see from my illustration, however, how it could be used as a screw/haul type work song. What's more interesting is the chorus (by which I mean "grand chorus") of some of these chanties. Some have what I want to call a "mock" chorus. Contained within the chorus are still the "pull" phrases. That means, people doing work at the screws or halyards could still use these there…even if in later days their choruses suggest they were being used for capstan or windlass. So the extended chorus, which everybody sings, for "Hieland Laddie" goes: Way, hey, and away we go BONnie Laddie, HIElan Laddie Way hey and away we go BONnie hielan LADdie o You've got the same phenomenon in "South Australia," in "Santiana," and perhaps in "Goodbye Fare Ye Well." So one thing not to do is separate "South Australia," for example, from the "proper" chanties category, since, although it is associated with heaving tasks, its form is related to the halyard ones. Also note how, although "Blow the Man Down" is clearly ascribed to halyards, it has been sung with a grand chorus too, of the likes of (All) Blow the man up, bullies, Blow the man down WAY hey BLOW the man down, etc… The time points for pulls are still there. (This inclusion of a grand chorus in BTMD would appear as something "wrong" that some current performers do – similar to the way revival singers have added a mock chorus to "Bulley in the Alley." However, the "Knock a Man Down" in Cecil Sharp's collection has such a chorus.) A lot of these chanties with the mock chorus appear well suited to windlass (pump style). The halyard and windlass chanties are closely related, if not interchangeable. So I would keep an eye towards both of them. As a point of distinction from the mock chorus chanties, there are the "hooraw chorus" type. They have "true" choruses – and ones that don't mark any time points. The "hooraw chorus" type is appropriate ~only~ to capstan work (for which it was usually pulled in from other sources, like marches) and would not work for halyards/screwing. For instance: Gwine to run all night, gwine to run all day… Or Hurrah, hurrah, for the gals o' Dub-a-lin Town… No pulls. Versus "South Australia": Heave away you rollin king HEAVE away, HEAVE away To summarize: Halyard chanty (and probably cotton screwing chant) form: Call-response-call-response. Clear "pull points" in the response. Windlass chanty form: Call-response-call-response, often with additional mock chorus that also contains "pull points." In this case, the "pull points" coincide, instead, with heaves on the pump handles. Capstan chanty form: 1) Windlass chantey form (perhaps borrowed) or 2) Long solo, long chorus (ex. The Limejuice Ship), as in many ballads and marches. 3) Call-response-call-response + long chorus (ex. Sacramento). It is debatable, to my mind, whether the call and response part of this form takes from halyard form or whether it is just coincidence. I lean towards the latter (and an example would be "A Rovin'", where the short, "mark well what I do say" does not strike me as a "pulling" refrain). The long form of "Roll the Cotton Down" is a good example of the transformation of a clearly for-halyards chanty into a clearly for-capstan one. Lastly, some of the really slow cotton screwing type songs seem to have been adapted for slow capstan work. Even though their form looks like it would be well suited for (heavy) "2 pull" work, these songs (ex. "Lowlands"/$1.50) were much to slow to work in hoisting a yard. Due to their slow tempo and rubato rhythm, the old "pull points" cease to be emphasized at the capstan. Gibb |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Charley Noble Date: 27 Feb 10 - 10:52 AM Gibb- Well put, Omph! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 27 Feb 10 - 11:36 AM Gibb, your comments on the "windless chanty form" were very helpful in finally getting me to focus on "the form" of these songs. It also helps me understand how the same song shifts from one job to another. I have gone back and looked at the "windless" chanties in Hugill - and yes, you are right, his layout does force one to look at the relationships among chanties differently than one would if you just follow categories like "capstan", "halyard", etc. - and here is what I've come up with in this context. A few are admittedly a stretch, but if you refer back to the possible African-American songs that may underlie them you can see how they might have evolved. And for Charlie's sake, as well as everyone else's, they are alphabetical this time. Across the Rockies A-Rovin' (?) Billy Boy Clear the Track, Let the Bullgine Run Doodle, Let Me Go Fire Down Below (a)(b)(c)(e) Goodbye, Fare Ye Well Heave Away, Cheerily O! Heave Away, Me Johnnies / We're All Bound to Go (a) Hooker John Jamboree (cf. G. Conway's version from Sharp) Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her Lowlands Away Miss Lucy Long (cf. "O Take Your Time Miss Lucy Long") Mr. Stormalong Only One More Day Poor Lucy Anna Rio Grande Roller Bowler (cf, "Ladies in the Parlour") Santiana - Round the Bay of Mexico Shenandoah South Australia - The Codfish Shanty Southern Ladies (fr. Sharp) Ten Stone How did I do? Also, I should add "Abel Brown the Sailor" as a halyard chanty, according to Hugill on pages 440-442/'61. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 27 Feb 10 - 09:16 PM Yep. That should be "windlass". No wonder this old ship is not moving! Windless???? This work is supposed to stave off the dementia. But at least I got my ABC's right. WINDLASS it is. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Charley Noble Date: 27 Feb 10 - 09:53 PM John- Well, I'm happy that this thread hasn't entered the doldrums. And, yes, I love alpha lists! I've always thought of "Ol' Moke Pickin' on a Banjo" as a capstan shanty. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 27 Feb 10 - 10:00 PM Yep, "Ol' Moke" is an example of what I want to call the "hooraw chorus form," and to my mind, too, it is only a capstan chantey. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 27 Feb 10 - 11:01 PM Taking John's list(s), I have done some sorting based on the form/style as I see it. My categories ignore what any writers have said the function of the chanties were. I am basing them on my own analysis and experience singing them only. Other opinions welcome! Oh, and I'm not adding (many) titles, just sorting John's. 1. Call-response-call-response form (with the 2 "pull points" per response): "Yankee John, Stormalong" "Stormy Along, John" "'Way Stormalong John" "Stormalong, Lads, Stormy" "A Long Time Ago" "Goodbye, My Love, Goodbye" "Roll The Cotton Down" "Roll The Woodpile Down" "Sally Brown" "Knock A Man Down" "Huckleberry Picking" / "We'll Ranzo Ray" "Hilo, Johnny Brown" "The Gal With the Blue Dress On" "John, Come Tell Us As We Haul Away"/ "Mobile Bay" "Gimme My Banjo" "Run, Let The Bullgine Run" "Walk Along My Rosie" "Coal Black Rosie" "Bunch O Roses" "Way, Me Susiana" "Round The Corner Sally" "Sister Susan"/"Shinbone Al" "Walkalong, Miss Susiana Brown" "Dixie Land" / "Sing A Song, Blow-Along O!" "Bully In The Alley" "Fire Maringo" "Blow Boys, Blow" "Poor Old Man" / "Dead Horse" "John Cherokee" (Colcord) "Hilo Come Down Below" (Bullen) "The Bully Boat"/"Ranzo Ray" (a) (Sharp) "Tommy's Gone Away" (c Sharp) "Whisky Johnny" "Billy Riley" "Hello, Somebody" "High O, Come Roll Me Over" "Where Am I to Go, M'Johnnies" "Roll, Boys, Roll" "Ranzo Ray" (c) "Hello Somebody" "Can't Ye Hilo?" "John Kanaka" "Haul 'er Away" (a) "Haul Away, Boys, Haul Away" "Walkalong, My Rosie" "Do Let Me Lone, Susan" "Sing Sally O" (b) "Essequibo River" "Hilonday" L. Smith "Pay Me the Money Down" "Walkalong You Sally Brown" "Hilo Boys Hilo" "Tiddy High O" "Heave Away Boys, Heave Away" (b) "Sister Susan (Shinbone Al)" "Miss Lucy Loo" "Heave Away Boys, Heave Away" (a) "Tommy's on the Tops'l yard" "Good Morning Ladies All" (b) "Won't Ye Go My Way?" "Tom's Gone To Hilo" "Hanging Johnny" "So Early In The Morning" (a) / "Bottle O" "So Handy, Me Boys" "Leave Her, Johnny" "Across The Western Ocean" Across the Rockies "Hurrah, Sing Fare Ye Well" "Hoorah For The Blackball Line" "Lower The Boat Down" (Colcord) "A Hundred Years Ago" (a) (b)/ "'Tis Time For Us To Go" Poor Lucy Anna Round the Bay of Mexico Doodle, Let Me Go SUBCATEGORY - These have the same form, and they probably would have worked for cotton-screwing as such, but aboard ship they are typically too slow for halyards. So, I reason, they were adopted for slow, a-rhythmic tramps around the capstan. Their shipboard function, however, does not keep them from being relatives of the others. The same process could happen to any other the above if rendered very slowly. And even the ones in this category could be sped up (e.g. the popular fast, halyards version of Shallow Brown): Southern Ladies (fr. Sharp) My Dollar And A Half A Day"/"Lowlands" "Mr. Stormalong" "Shallow Brown" Shenandoah (and variations) SUBCATEGORY - Here's one that strikes me (a hunch) as something fitting the form but being a creation of later days: "Serafina" SUBCATEGORY - And here are two that have a slight irregularity in the form, but which nonetheless could have worked just fine for cotton-screwing. I hypothesize that because they had that irregularity in timing, they could cause slight confusion at halyards, so they were used for capstan, where the timing didn't matter: "Good Morning Ladies All" (a) "Stormy Along, John" This "Category 1" could be broken down further. I think subgroups would cohere that would show such possible groupings as: Southern States songs; Caribbean songs; earlier songs; later songs based in the paradigm of the earlier songs; etc. In this category the songs are all those that I feel are practically unmistakable as chanties (as opposed to another genre). And the vast majority ("Serafina" might be an exception) seem to me to have a strong African-American connection. I'll do other categories later. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 28 Feb 10 - 11:33 AM To category 1 I'd add: Fire Down Below (a-b-c) Heave Away my Johnnies (cf. relation to "slave song" about Henry Clay) And an example of songs in the Cat. 1 pattern but which has just one customary pull are "Won't Ye Go My Way" and "Hilonday." As I come across others, I might flesh out a subcategory there. Next category... 2. Call-response-call-response plus mock chorus. The "mock chorus" is structured and timed just like the call-response section, and the only reasons it appears as a chorus are 1) Everyone sings together 2)The lyrics repeat each time round: Leave her Johnny Clear the Track, Let the Bullgine Run Goodbye, Fare Ye Well Heave Away, Cheerily O! [sort of] Only One More Day Rio Grande Santiana South Australia The Codfish Shanty "Walk Me Along, Johnny" / "General Taylor" "Hieland Laddie" Because of their chorus, these have all been used for continuous tasks, windlass or capstan. However, they are modified arrangements of the same thing that works for halyards/cotton-screwing. What works for halyards is much more limiting than what works for the heaving tasks (pumping, windlass, capstan). That underscores the distinctiveness or exclusivity of those types of work songs. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:16 PM Gibb, I appreciate your re-ordering. Please keep at it. I am finding it very helpful. I've been thinking about the "call-response" work song form and it's African American context. I am assuming that roughly speaking, we are talking about a time period for the "emergence" of the chanties proper between about 1810 and 1860, a period of only 50 years. It is likely that at least some of the "work songs" that form the basis for the chanties are much older and even go back into the 1700's. Or, at least the call/response form probably predates the 1800's. It seems to me that when we are talking about "African American work songs" in the first half of the 19th century, and speaking about a region that runs roughly from Baltimore down the east coast and around the Gulf to Galveston, and goes south and east to include the Caribbean and much of South America on down to Brazil and beyond, we are talking about *slave* songs. I realize that there were free Blacks in all of these areas, but the dominant culture was a slave culture. I believe I remember reading that in South Carolina, there was no such thing, legally, as a "free" Black person, which caused some problems for free Black sailors who happened to land there. A slave culture means that these African American laborers were not working for themselves, and that they had little or no choice about where they worked, when they worked, or what kind of work they did. We've already mentioned that some plantation owners "leased" out their slaves to work on board ships during the off seasons so they wouldn't have to feed them and so they would still be economically viable and valuable. These Black laborers worked to make the White man wealthy. The work songs they sang helped them survive this situation. See here the sections on the transAtlantic slave trade, slavery in the US and the abolitionist movements: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery As Q has mentioned, there were White "hoosiers" as well as Black ones working the cotton stowing jobs in the Gulf Ports. In those days there was apparently little problem with White guys picking up and using Black songs. And thus the shore work songs became sea-going work songs and evolved into the "chanties, proper", carried there by both Blacks and Whites. In trying to imagine something about the call-response work song in the context of African American slave culture, I realized that there was a somewhat contemporary example of how this might have worked and sounded. I say "somewhat contemporary" because it seems that the practice I want to mention is probably no longer a live tradition. But it was so as recently as the 1960s. I am referring to the African American experience of prison labor in the South, what is popularly known as "the chain gang". African Americans in the Southern prison systems in much of the last (20th) century were little better than slaves. And they used call/response work songs in much the same way that the earlier plantation and riverboat landing slaves did. There is a wonderful book on this subject by Bruce Jackson called WAKE UP DEAD MAN - HARD LABOR AND SOUTHERN BLUES (University of Georgia, 1972). And there is a CD that goes with this called "Wake Up Dead Man - Black Convict Worksongs From Texas Prisons" (Rounder) which has some of the recordings that Jackson made back in the 1960's that form the basis of his book. Listening to these convict work songs, I was able to hear the form of call/response that Gibb has been talking about. It seems that there is a fairly direct line of descent here from the pre-Civil War plantation and and river slave songs down to the cotton-chopping, wood-cutting, and hammer songs of the prison chain gangs. And somewhere along in there, this kind of song went to sea. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Charley Noble Date: 28 Feb 10 - 02:10 PM Gibb- I do love alpha sorted lists, as I pointed out in a PM to John, for helping to figure out what is missing or eliminating duplications. And it's relatively easy to do that in Word, and copy and paste back to here. Cheerily, Charlie Ipcar |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM I wanted to share a passage from Bruce Jackson's liner notes for his CD "Wake Up Dead Man". He says, "The black convict worksong survived into the early 1960s because the southern penitentiary was a copy of the mid-19th century plantation (which itself was probably based on African models - there had been nothing like it in British agricultural tradition). The songs lasted until prison reform made them anachronistic. The overt brutality in the fields ended and slow workers were no longer tortured. Heavy machinery became more economical than large labor forces, so many of the field inmates were reassigned to inside jobs and training programs. Younger blacks saw the songs as holdovers from slavery and Uncle Tom days and refused to join the older black men in performing them. Finally, integration, which put white and black inmates in the same work groups, stopped the songs entirely: the whites wouldn't and couldn't do them, and the nature of the work was such that if every one in a group didn't work in time, no one could. The genre never moved back outside prison camps because, with end of non-prison gang labor in the South, there was no occasion for performance; one doesn't sing a worksong in a steel mill and these weren't songs one would sit around and chant at a bar or on the porch. The songs existed only in connection with a harsh set of social conditions, and once those conditions altered significantly, the songs disappeared entirely." If you go to Amazon, you can hear some very brief clips from this album. I recommend "Jody", "I'm In The Bottom", "Down the Line", "Hammer Ring", "Fallin' Down", and "Grizzly Bear". Perhaps the first thing that struck me was that these are more like chants than songs. And they go on for a long time! It seems one of the main differences between these songs and chanties is that the work strokes happen all the way through the song. Another characteristic in some of the other songs is that everybody sings everything. But one can still sense the call/response pattern and the timed work strokes. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012A2PPK/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i It is interesting that these songs died out *because* the whites wouldn't/couldn't sing them with the African Americans, which was exactly the opposite from what apparently happened with the chanties. Also, the younger generation rejected them, again unlike the later generations who sailed toward the end of the 19th century. However, the Industrial Revolution finally triumphed even at sea. The work was no longer there to be done and there was no longer a need for the work song. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 28 Feb 10 - 06:07 PM Thanks for the link, John. Everyone should listen to Track 15, "Roll 'im on Down" at THIS link :) http://www.amazon.com/Negro-Work-Songs-and-Calls/dp/B00129PQ8E/ref=pd_sim_dmusic |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:25 AM Here is Gibb's re-organization of my lists in alphabetical form, with the sub-categories noted and added in. Gibb, I hope I haven't confused anything here or accidentally deleted anything. I would like to dedicate this to the one and only, Charlie Noble. 1. Call-response-call-response form (with the 2 "pull points" per response): [and several sub-categories indicated by [ ], { }, & ( ) & (mock chorus)]* "Across the Rockies" "Across The Western Ocean" "A Hundred Years Ago" (a) (b)/ "'Tis Time For Us To Go" "A Long Time Ago" "Billy Riley" "Blow Boys, Blow" "Bully In The Alley" "Bunch O Roses" "Can't Ye Hilo?" "Clear the Track, Let the Bullgine Run" (mock chorus) "Coal Black Rosie" "Dixie Land" / "Sing A Song, Blow-Along O!" "Do Let Me Lone, Susan" "Doodle, Let Me Go" "Essequibo River" "Fire Down Below" (a-b-c) "Fire Maringo" "Gimme My Banjo" "Goodbye, Fare Ye Well" (mock chorus) "Goodbye, My Love, Goodbye" ("Good Morning Ladies All" (a)) cotton-screwing/capstan "Good Morning Ladies All" (b) "Hanging Johnny" "Haul Away, Boys, Haul Away" "Haul 'er Away" (a) "Heave Away Boys, Heave Away" (a) "Heave Away Boys, Heave Away" (b) "Heave Away, Cheerily O!" [sort of] (mock chorus) "Heave Away My Johnnies" (cf. relation to "slave song" about Henry Clay) "Hello, Somebody" "Hieland Laddie" (mock chorus) "High O, Come Roll Me Over" "Hilo Boys Hilo" "Hilo Come Down Below" (Bullen) "Hilo, Johnny Brown" "Hilonday" L. Smith (one pull) "Hoorah For The Blackball Line" "Huckleberry Picking" / "We'll Ranzo Ray" "Hurrah, Sing Fare Ye Well" "John Cherokee" (Colcord) "John, Come Tell Us As We Haul Away"/ "Mobile Bay" "John Kanaka" "Knock A Man Down" "Leave Her, Johnny" "Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her" (mock chorus) "Lower The Boat Down" (Colcord) "Miss Lucy Loo" ["My Dollar And A Half A Day"/"Lowlands"] cotton-stowing/capstan ["Mr. Stormalong"] cotton-stowing/capstan "Only One More Day" (mock chorus) "Pay Me the Money Down" "Poor Lucy Anna" "Poor Old Man" / "Dead Horse" "Ranzo Ray" (c) "Rio Grande" (mock chorus) "Roll, Boys, Roll" "Roll The Cotton Down" "Roll The Woodpile Down" "Round the Bay of Mexico" "Round The Corner Sally" "Run, Let The Bullgine Run" "Sally Brown" "Santiana" (mock chorus) {"Serafina"} perhaps a later chanty ["Shallow Brown"] cotton-stowing/capstan ["Shenandoah" (and variations)] cotton-stowing/capstan "Sing Sally O" (b) "Sister Susan"/"Shinbone Al" "So Early In The Morning" (a) / "Bottle O" "So Handy, Me Boys" "South Australia" (mock chorus) [Southern Ladies (fr. Sharp)] cotton-stowing/captsan ("Stormy Along, John") cotton-screwing/capstan "Stormalong, Lads, Stormy" "Tiddy High O" "Tommy's Gone Away" (Sharp) "Tommy's on the Tops'l yard" "Tom's Gone To Hilo" "The Bully Boat"/"Ranzo Ray" (a) (Sharp) "The Codfish Shanty" mock chorus "The Gal With the Blue Dress On" "Walkalong, Miss Susiana Brown" "Walk Along My Rosie" "Walkalong You Sally Brown" "Walk Me Along, Johnny" / "General Taylor" (mock chorus) "Way, Me Susiana" "'Way Stormalong John" "Where Am I to Go, M'Johnnies" "Whisky Johnny" "Won't Ye Go My Way?" (one pull) "Yankee John, Stormalong" --- *Subcategories: [ ] "These have the same form, and they probably would have worked for cotton-screwing as such, but aboard ship they are typically too slow for halyards. So, I reason, they were adopted for slow, a-rhythmic tramps around the capstan." { } "something fitting the form but being a creation of later days" ( ) "And here are two that have a slight irregularity in the form, but which nonetheless could have worked just fine for cotton-screwing. I hypothesize that because they had that irregularity in timing, they could cause slight confusion at halyards, so they were used for capstan, where the timing didn't matter." (mock chorus) "Call-response-call-response plus mock chorus. The "mock chorus" is structured and timed just like the call-response section, and the only reasons it appears as a chorus are 1) Everyone sings together 2)The lyrics repeat each time round." |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Charley Noble Date: 01 Mar 10 - 09:21 AM John- Thanks for the dedication but "Charley Noble" is only a figment of our collective imagination. Oh, and to be even more picky with regard to sorted title lists, consider relegating the "A's" and "The's" to the end of the song title separated with a comma. But here's a more substantive comment. With regard to "Whisky Johnny" there's also the halyard version in Hugill which I know as "Whisky-O" with the grand chorus: Whiskey-O, Johnny-O, Rise 'er UP from down be-LOW Whiskey, whiskey, whiskey-o, Up a-LOFT this yard must GO John, rise 'er UP from down be-LOW! And I'm still trying to figure out where Barry Finn's traditional shanties fit in: Hard Times in Ol' Virginia London Julie Priests and Nuns (pumping shanty) Roller Bowler Saltpeter Shanty/Slav Ho Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Lighter Date: 01 Mar 10 - 12:07 PM "The Priest and the Nuns" is reported only by Harlow. I have always had the feeling that it was originally a translation from German or French, possibly because of the tune, which also seems untraditional, at least in the English-speaking world and at least to me. It is also unusual for an English folksong to focus on priests and nuns, especially in Austria. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 01 Mar 10 - 01:16 PM Charley, I think Hugill lists your "Whisky O, Johnny O" as "Rise Me Up From Down Below" (pages 280-281/'61), which he calls a "stamp 'n go" song, and I've listed it as such at the bottom of my first list. Hugill gives "Roller Bowler" as a "capstan" song (pages 347-349/'61). And he says the the "Saltpeter Shanty/Slav Ho" was "used at the capstan" (p. 518/'6). Harlow gives "The Priest and the Nuns" as a pumping chanty, but doesn't say anything about it (pages 166-167). I've been listening to the Lomax recording of the Georgia Sea Island singers of "Hard Time in Ole Virginia" (John Davis & Group). It is a call/response work song and it sounds to me like it's got two pulls. http://www.amazon.com/Southern-Journey-V-13-Earliest/dp/B0012JG27I/ref=sr_shvl_album_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1267467203&sr=301-2 I can't find much on "London Julie" other than what Barry Finn says, which is that it's in both the Carpenter collection and the Gordon collection. It doesn't sound to me like a hauling song. But I am really new at this business of *listening* for the "pulls". |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Charley Noble Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM John- With regard to "London Julie," which I'm very familiar with from doing harmony on Barry's CD, I think the pulls happen as follows: LONDON JULIE Well, we took a long loving walk, A-HA, me London JULIE! And we had a long, loving talk, A-HA, me London JULIE! Full Chorus: Julianna, Julianna, where do you go? A-HA, me London JULIE! Julianna, Julianna, where do you go? A-HA, me London JULIE! Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:54 PM Thanks, Charlie. That's helpful for me. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 01 Mar 10 - 05:36 PM Just going by the sound of it -- at least how it is performed these days-- I'm doubtful that "London Julie" was a halyard chanty. Does the original source say that it was? Sorry, I don't know where that is. However, I would like to be wrong about this because it would expand my notion of a halyard chanty. And "Whisky O," IMHO, is quite another thing altogether. If it was used as a timed-pull halyard chanty, then it is something rare that doesn't fit the pattern of "Category 1." I'm fond of the idea that it was two timed pulls, followed by a walk-away. Anyways, my goal in sorting chanties that John listed was just to give examples, not a comprehensive list. Through examples, one can see how (*IF*) a category coheres. I don't think every chanty needs to be put in a category, but from all those examples one can get an idea of what makes them similar. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 01 Mar 10 - 06:07 PM I've wondered (yes, rather idly -- someone more knowledgeable can contribute to this brainstorm!) when historically the need for hoisting yards came into the picture. There is the idea that these "new" "chanties" were adopted in a big way to suit the newer packet ships...and also the fact that they were manned by smaller crews. (Smaller crews meant, for instance, that the guys really had to pace and coordinate their hoisting efforts, whereas huge crews could just grab the fall and march away with it as a walk-away.) To what extent (and how far back) to the task of hoisting yards (square sails) exist before the post-War of 1812 era? It's clear that, earlier, there were "capstan songs." Those did not coordinate action per se. Rather, they set a manageable pace or just made the work less toilsome. And there were short-drags -- 1 pull -- though it seems unlikely that these could/would have been used to hoist a yard. They were for tacks/sheets, catting anchor, or the infamous "bowline." But maybe not only? When Dana talked about "songs for capstan and falls".... do we have any sense which are the hauling ones among these? First: is "fall" restricted in use at all, i.e. for any particular line (e.g. halyard versus sheet)? If so, that would add specificity. Second, my hunch is that, with "Cheerly, Men" as the model, the hauling songs were 1-pull items. I realize that I'm not providing much evidence to go on here, but my "brainstorm" is that what was going on in the brig PILGRIM was some really hard, single pulls...big bursts of force, like you'd get at the end of a "haul away JOE!" The "classic" (arguably cotton-screwing based) double pull chanties are more measured and energy is conserved a bit better, for the long task. A close reading of Dana's text could give an idea if chanties "as we know them" yet existed in his day. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 01 Mar 10 - 06:10 PM "To what extent (and how far back) DOES the task of hoisting yards (square sails) exist before the post-War of 1812 era?" |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Lighter Date: 01 Mar 10 - 06:55 PM The American Journal of Music and Musical Vistor (Feb. 25, 1845), p. 53, gives what may be the earliest ex. of an American shanty printed with its tune. After several verbosely chatty paragraphs typical of the period, the anonymous writer offers "Heaving Anchor. A Sailor Song. Furnished by N. C.," a "lad who, several years since, used to fold our papers" and who has "recently returned from a voyage to Smyrna, up the Mediterranean." The text: Then walk him up so lively, Ho, O, heave O, Then walk him up so lively, hearties, Ho, O, heave O. I'm Bonny of the Skylark, Ho, O, heave O, Then walk him up so lively, hearties, Ho, O, heave, O. I'm going away to leave you, Ho, O, heave O, Then walk, &c. The writer then notes that in "rowing, the words are slightly altered, as follows": Then walk him up so lively, Row, Billy, row, Then walk him up so lively, hearties, Row, Billy, row. I'm Bunny of the Skylark, Row, Billy, row, Then walk, &c. I'm going away to leave you, Row, Billy, row, I'm going, &c. Sorry I can't reproduce the modal tune, but it isn't much. Its shape resembles that of "Bounty was a Packet Ship," but I wouldn't say they're clearly related. The solo lines, "Then walk him up so lively, hearties" interestingly fit the meter of Dana's "Heave Away, My Hearty Bullies!" (Plus the word "hearty" appears, FWIW.) What I think is more important than a possible connection to any of Dana's shanties is the sheer primitiveness of this. Of the various shanties "N.C." presumably heard on his voyage to Smyrna, why would he remember this one? Or to put it another way, if tuneful shanties with interesting lyrics were being sung (like "Rio Grande" and "Shenandoah"), why report only this one? Surely the editor of the magazine would have preferred to print a better song. The magazine appeared several years before the possible "shanty boom" of the California Gold Rush, though that too may mean nothing. It doesn't pay to overinterpret, but one does get the feeling that "Ho, O, Heave O" (which almost sounds like a Hebridean waulking song)may be close in form to one of the earliest sea shanties "as we know them," and that Dana's lost shanties may have been not much better (a possible explanation of why he didn't offer any lyrics). Concerning shanties in general, the writer notes that "On the yard-arm, in a clear air, they compose verses and tunes and sing to their companions. It is to be hoped, that the time is coming, when the sentiment of their songs will be such as the good and virtuous will approve." "On the yardarm" suggests a bunting shanty. "Paddy Doyle"? We may never know. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Charley Noble Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:57 PM Lighter- Nice to have another early "shanty" added to the archives, with a literary reference. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 02 Mar 10 - 10:08 AM Gibb, with regard to your question about Dana and his "falls" : "When Dana talked about "songs for capstan and falls".... do we have any sense which are the hauling ones among these? First: is "fall" restricted in use at all, i.e. for any particular line (e.g. halyard versus sheet)? If so, that would add specificity", I'm wondering if it would help to look in his other book THE SEAMAN'S FRIEND CONTAINING A TREATISE ON PRACTICAL SEAMANSHIP, etc. I tried reading some of it with regard to "halyards" but immediately got lost. Perhaps someone who is better acquainted with the technical side of this could sort it out and find an answer to your question. If I remember correctly, Dana does not mention any singing, worksongs, or chanties in this book. This fifth edition was published in 1847: http://books.google.com/books?id=eGVGAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=A+Seaman's+Friend&cd=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Charley Noble Date: 02 Mar 10 - 10:17 AM John- I believe that "falls" are any lines that a sailor would grab on to in order to hoist something, be it a sail, a yard, a lifeboat, or even cargo. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 02 Mar 10 - 11:51 AM Lighter, you say: "What I think is more important than a possible connection to any of Dana's shanties is the sheer primitiveness of this. Of the various shanties "N.C." presumably heard on his voyage to Smyrna, why would he remember this one? Or to put it another way, if tuneful shanties with interesting lyrics were being sung (like "Rio Grande" and "Shenandoah"), why report only this one? Surely the editor of the magazine would have preferred to print a better song. The magazine appeared several years before the possible "shanty boom" of the California Gold Rush, though that too may mean nothing." I was thinking about this and it seems to me that there is a "sheer primitiveness" about the call/response work song itself. This really comes through in the southern prison songs I was listening to yesterday. They are quite monotonous and not particularly melodious. They seem almost closer to a chant than a song. Then listening to some of the Georgia Sea Islander "chanties", I had the same feeling. The Bahamian songs seem a bit more "mellower" but this may be due to some of the harmonies. This morning I have been listening to some of the chanties on the list of hauling songs, and I am picking up the same sense of almost monotonous back and forth chanting. While both the African Americans and the Irish, for example, contributed very "lyrical" tunes for some of these chanties, not all of them have such tunes. Perhaps the form served as something of a limit on the aesthetics of these songs. And while the magazine editors might have preferred more "tuneful shanties with interesting lyrics", the more prosaic examples such as the one you have discovered and the ones from Dana, as well as many of the ones we have from the later collections may well have been what were actually being used. I appreciate your argument from what I would call "silence". If they are not mentioned maybe/possibly/probably they didn't exist. Or, if they were around, why weren't they mentioned, rather than some of these other more obscure songs. I think this does raise question marks over my project to try to imagine the later-collected songs back into an earlier time frame. And I suppose that to say that an argument from silence can go both ways is not a very strong position to take, but it is also true. Just because they are not mentioned doesn't necessarily mean they weren't there in the 1840's and 1850's. Perhaps the very nature of their monotonous, chant-like qualities worked against them being remarkable as far as those who might record them were concerned. Treading gingerly on some thin ice, I also wonder whether the mostly "white" travelers - do we have any records at all of accounts of being at sea by non-white travelers or mariners? - would not have either been interested, or perhaps able to note down some of the African American songs. Their ears may not have been dialect-tuned. Or, as with so many things having to do with white perspectives on non-white issues, they simply didn't "hear" the African American songs. They were audibly "invisible". |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 03 Mar 10 - 04:27 PM Now that we have what I would call a working list of chanties to choose from I would like to propose some criteria for suggesting which ones might have been used on the "Julia Ann" between 1853 and 1855. I'm not saying that songs which are not on my/Gibb's list couldn't have been used on those voyages. I will consider some of them later. But first I want to look at these "hauling" work songs. I am theorizing that they emerged as chanties sometime between about 1820 and 1860. I know that this is debatable, so I'm simply using it as a hypothesis. I also know that there are very few "proof texts" for dating and locating these songs before the 1880s. So I am not trying to "prove" anything. I want to try to establish a "likely" historical context in which to place these songs. I am using "likely" to mean somewhere between "possible" and "probable". In order to build such a context I want to use what I would call multiple categories of multiple, independent attestations. I realize that a category of multiple attestation only proves that something is attested to a certain number of times, which may mean that it was "popular" or available or compatible with those who noted it or any number of other things. There are all kinds of things that could determine why a given song shows up in any given number of places. And I am not suggesting any kind of statistical analysis here. I know nothing about that kind of thing. However, if a certain song shows up in a number of independently different places it does tell us that that song was "around", that it existed at the time it was noted, and where it was noted. By looking at this kind of information, we might get some sense of the "spread" of the song, how broadly it was known and used. This could tell us something useful about its historical context at a particular time. Using only one such category of multiple attestation would only give us one thin slice and not much in the way of depth for a historical context. This is why I want to use multiple categories. I am hoping that the cumulative information my give us some depth over a period of time. I will present my categories in two parts. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 03 Mar 10 - 04:32 PM Categories of Multiple Attestation, Part I Published Collections - by date of publication. Examples would be Sharp, Terry, Whall, etc. I don't have access to all of these collections, but to many of them and to the contents of others. I don't promise to be a hundred percent thorough, but I will be as comprehensive as possible. How many and which collections contain a given chanty? Are they earlier or later or is the chanty spread over all of them? By itself, this category can only tell us how often a chanty was collected after about 1880. But was it collected only once or over ten times? The more often it shows up, the more information we can gain about it. Published Mention - by date of publication. This category is a little different from that of the collections. Here I would include the various magazine articles as well as mention made in travel accounts, fiction, letters, newspaper stories, etc. Examples would be Nordhoff, Olmstead, Gosse, Alden, etc. Hopefully this category will push us further back into the 19th century for some of these chanties. This category should begin to give us more of a geographical and chronological spread. It will also give us whatever firm historical dating that we may find. Historical Informants - by estimated dates of when they were at sea or when they could have heard or sung these chanties. Examples would be Dick Maitland, Harding, Joanna Colcord, Hugill, Mr. Short, etc. While the dating of these informants is not always exact and the accounts are usually based on memory rather than written documents, this category does push the information gained in the "Collections" category a bit further back into the 19th century. It also gives us some geographical and chronological spread. Use & Function - with some effort to trace historical development. How many different uses did a particular chanty serve throughout its history? Did it begin as a cotton-stowing song, and become a halyard chanty and then a capstan chanty or a pumping chanty? This category can give us a sense of how a work song evolved functionally throughout its lifetime. And perhaps use can point to some hints about location and time frames. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 03 Mar 10 - 04:36 PM Categories of Multiple Attestation, Part II Versions & Variants - with attention to different geographical and "trade" usage. In some cases we have a "family" of chanties, such as "Stormalong" and "Ranzo". In other cases we have multiple texts be applied to a chanty like "Knock A Man Down". And in each of these cases the different versions reflect different constituencies, such as the Blackball packets, or the cotton traders, or the rum and sugar traders, etc. This category begins to look not only at the number of different versions but the content of them. Geographical Usage - with attention to historical timelines and locations. Here I am thinking of geographical spheres such as "the Western Ocean", the East India trade, the Gulf Port cotton trade, the Gold Rush, the Cape Horn traffic, the immigrant traffic to Australia, the Timber trade to Canada, all of the various whaling regions, etc. If a song shows up in a lot of different areas over time, then that is a clue to how wide its spread. The chanty "Hieland Laddie" is a good example of multiple use and broad geographical spread. Genre Usage - focusing on our previous discussions of what chanties were used by different groups at sea during the 19th century. While we didn't turn up very much in this exploration, I still think it is a valid category of multiple attestation. If a chanty was a favorite with the whalers and with the East India men, and later shows up on the Western Packets, and then goes around Cape Horn with the Gold Rush, it has both geographical and historical spread and popularity. Historical Usage - overlapping some of the previous categories. Here I would highlight the different commercial areas of interest like the tea trades, the cotton trades, the timber trades, the sugar trades, the passenger and mail ships, etc. Pre-Chanty Song Sources - with some attention to both lyrics and tunes. Here I am thinking especially of African American slave songs and blackface minstrel songs, as well as Irish influences, etc. In some cases a chantey may have evolved from a number of different sources. This gives us a sense of cultural spread. I realize that there is considerable overlap among these various categories, but each one has a particular focus. And once again, the point of looking at "multiple" attestations is that each attestation have some degree of independence from the others. I realize that we have some cases where a writer may have "borrowed" from an earlier source. I would try to draw attention to that. If one were to actually apply these categories to each and every chanty on "the list", as well as to other work songs, it would be a huge task. I think by using the first category of "Published Collections" I can narrow the selection down considerably to a workable number of chanties to look at. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:25 AM Well....OK! I Can't wait to hear more! |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:18 AM Gibb- I think John's computer may have crashed. Shall we sing a couple of verses of "Leave Her Johnny," aka "Time for Us to Leave Her,"Leave her, Bullies, Leave Her" while we're waiting for him to "boot 'er up ag'in"? Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:37 AM Hey, Charlie, maybe you guys could do a joint YouTube thing. That would be great. I'm not crashed, just ruminating. And enjoying no snow, sunshine and clear skies. Here's a list of the earliest documented work songs that have been mentioned so far on this thread. There may be others that I don't know about. We've already discussed these to some extent, but I will begin again with them and see how my categories work. [1832] "The Quid" "Oh her love is a sailor" "Oh! if I had her" [April 3, 1837] Captain Marryat "Sally Brown" [1840] Dana "Heave, to the girls!" "Nancy oh!" "Jack Crosstree" "Cheerly, men" "Heave round hearty!" "Captain gone ashore!" "Dandy ship and a dandy crew" "Time for us to go!" "Round the corner" "Tally high ho! you know" "Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies!" [February 11,1840] Olmstead "Drunken Sailor" "Nancy Farana" "O, Hurrah, My Hearties, O" [circa 1844] Lowe "Roll and go for that white pitcher, roll and go," [1845] "American Journal of Music" "Ho, O, heave O" / "Row, Billy, row" [1850s] Meacom/Whidden "Mobile Bay" "Fire Down Below" "One More Day For Johnnie" [c.1855] Nordhoff "Old Stormy" "Yankee Dollar" "Fire Maringo" "Highland Laddie" "Across the briny ocean" |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:22 PM [1845] "American Journal of Music" "Ho, O, heave O" / "Row, Billy, row" I'm wondering if "Row, Billy, row" is a mishearing or typo of the capstan shanty "Row, Bullies, Row" aka "Liverpool Judies" or "The Tow-Rope Girls." Hugill says it probably dates to the 1840's "since it was popular in the Western Ocean Packets." Hugill also suggests this might have been a rowing shanty used by Whalers, given its frequent reference to rowing rather than heaving or rolling. At any rate it seems likely that the American Journal is referring to the same song. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 04 Mar 10 - 01:40 PM Charley, Given the details supplied by Lighter, above, I doubt any correspondence between the two "Row" songs. (Incidentally, I really think "roll" must be the proper word in "Liverpool Judies") I was about to join you on some topical verses of "Leave Her Johnny," but then I realized how little computer jargon I know, and less to rhyme with! Must be because I use a Mac ;) And guys, I do have a YouTube chantey collaboration in the works, FYI, which will feature two other Mudcatters :) John, Great start. Though it may not fit your methodology (perhaps you've already discarded it), I'll remind you anyway of the book LANDSMAN HAY, in which the very chanty-like stevedore song "Grog time of day" was supposedly heard from stevedores in Jamaica in 1811. This is the text that Hugill "discovered. It looks like it was not published until 1953, being the memoirs of Robert Hay, 1789-1847. I've never had my hands on the book. But assuming these pre-1847 memoirs exist somewhere, they are notable. Well, what is notable is that the song really fits into the "classic" chanty form and that such a form was existing as early as 1811. Also notable is the possibility that such a form was at that time distinct (or fairly distinct) to either a specific region or specific ethnic group. Because the way in which it is described is as if "others" were engaged in the practice. The exact nature of the working of cargo is not stated. A capstan is mentioned, but I am not sure if this means that the cargo was hoisted by a line attached to the capstan. In Parrish's Georgia Sea Island study, the stevedores hoisted the cargo in a halyards-like way. "Grog time of day" reminds me very much of the chanty "One More Day," in its phrasing and form. A slight tangent: "Sally Rackett"/"Haul er Away" is notably similar (in tune) to the well-known Jamaican song "Hill and Gully Rider." That is not to say that is necesariily came from a Jamaican song; I don't know its history, and it may have been the other way around. However, I do know that "Hill and Gully" was a work song, and that it was timed in the fashion of what are called "digging songs." The rhythm works in these songs such that (if we are consider the meter to be of four beats) the [fourth beat] cues the raising of pick axes (or whatever they did with?) so that they can come down and strike on beat ONE. Hill and gully ri-[der] ch. HILL and gully It would work well as a rowing song, too, which is how they use it in the film version of Moby Dick. This of course was a "single pull" type form. The fact that "Sally Racket" has very similar verses to "Cheerly, Men," another single-pull, makes me wonder. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 04 Mar 10 - 01:54 PM I forgot to mention Phillip Gosse's "Fire the ringo, fire away" from 1838. Any of these work songs *could* have been sung on board the "Julia Ann" since we know from the written sources they were around before 1855 (the Meacom and Nordhoff ones are a bit vague). But how many are only mentioned here in the literature on chanties? The following have a single attestation: "Oh her love is a sailor" "Oh! if I had her" "Heave, to the girls!" "Nancy oh!" "Jack Crosstree" "Heave round hearty!" "Dandy ship and a dandy crew" "Time for us to go!" "Tally high ho! you know" "Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies!" "O, Hurrah, My Hearties, O" "Roll and go for that white pitcher, roll and go," "Ho, O, heave O" / "Row, Billy, row" "Yankee Dollar" We have lyrics given for only five of these and a couple of them are partial: "Oh her love is a sailor" (East India Company) "Oh! if I had her" (East India Company) "Roll and go for that white pitcher, roll and go," (London docks) "Ho, O, heave O" / "Row, Billy, row" (Mediterranean) "Yankee Dollar" (Mobile) In each of these cases, we do have some location indicators. The others are simply titles, and for all practical purposes "lost" at the present time. I realize that attempts have been made to identify some of these but my sense of the discussion is that these remain questionable. I'm open to correction on this. That leaves the following for further consideration: "Across the briny ocean" "Captain gone ashore!" "Cheerly, men" "Drunken Sailor" "Fire Down Below" "Fire Maringo" "Highland Laddie" "Mobile Bay" "Nancy Farana" "Old Stormy" "One More Day For Johnnie" "Round the corner" "Sally Brown" With all but three of these, we have lyrics for comparison with later versions. Dana does not give us words for "Captain Gone Ashore", "Cheerily Men" or "Around the Corner". Because Dana does not actually give us anything but titles, about all we can say with regard to him is that he documents the fact that chanties were being sung as work songs aboard sailing vessels that had gone around the horn to California, as early as 1840 and that there were in fact quite a few of them, relatively speaking. A number of his chanties may be related to ones collected later and the three mentioned above probably are. Dana in fact gives us some important information about the historical and geographical spread of chanties prior to 1850. But beyond that, we have to turn to other sources. Therefore I would reduce the list, for now, to these chanties: "Across the briny ocean" "Drunken Sailor" "Fire Down Below" "Fire Maringo" "Highland Laddie" "Mobile Bay" "Nancy Farana" "Old Stormy" "One More Day For Johnnie" "Sally Brown" All of these are on Gibb's list of call/response work songs above, except "Drunken Sailor". |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 04 Mar 10 - 02:09 PM Gibb, I didn't see your post before mine went up. Mudcat is moving very slowly for me today in terms of bringing up anything. Thanks for the reminder and information on "Grog time of day". My filing system is becoming ponderous these days and I had forgotten the LANDSMAN HAY reference. For now, I will add it to my group of singly attested songs with lyrics. I'm not dumping these songs, but only putting them in brackets for reconsideration later. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 04 Mar 10 - 02:48 PM "Nancy Fanana" is again similar to "Cheerly, Men" in lyrics. That may not mean they are related songs, just that the "Nancy Fanana slept with a banana" device, like the "Was you ever down Mobile Bay?" device, was a common one. Still, I'd argue that that puts them in the same boat. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Amos Date: 04 Mar 10 - 02:59 PM I am awed and full of admiration at the incredible work done in this research string by John Minear, Q, Charlie, Gibb and many others. This is the kind of work that makes the Mudcat a priceless resource. Applause and thanks to all of you. A |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Mar 10 - 04:04 PM Hmmm? Evidently Sharp also collected "Grog Time of Day" in the Appalachians: "It has long been said that Cecil Sharp had a disliking for instrumental music in the Appalachians. Yet this is not the case. He noted fiddle tunes, was amused by a fiddler's convention and heard a number of banjo players. Why, I wonder, did he say that Mrs Crawford's nephews played their instruments 'characteristically', unless he was aware of the elements which characterised Appalachian instrumental music? Sharp had also previously noted 'fife tunes' from a Mr N B Chisholm of Wardbridge, VA, in 1916. Mr Chisholm had sung the tunes to Sharp using mnemonic verses such as the following, which he used to remember the tune Napoleon's Retreat: It's grog time of day, my love Grog time of day When Boney crossed the Alps It's grog time of day. #83 Maybe since this was a popular fiddle tune, it also surfaced in the West Indies where Robert Hay heard the stevedores working with it in 1811. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 04 Mar 10 - 05:17 PM Ha! That's an interesting find, Charley. But why would they be singing that in the Appalachians, unless the fife-player was an ex-sailor? The phrase "grog time of day," IMHO sounds distinctly West Indian (or something creole, at least). It's hard to believe that these verses were "random" (to me implied by "mnemonic verses"). Perhaps "Grog time of day" was a more widely known song? On the Google search, there is also a link to a circa 1879 play set in the West Indies (I haven't checked it out in depth) in which one of the stage directions says "Music - 'Grog Time of Day'". |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 04 Mar 10 - 07:00 PM Charlie, this is very interesting. I am wondering if "Mr. N B Chisholm of Wardbridge, VA, in 1916" could be a reference to this: "Professor Smith [of UVA in Charlottesville] passed Sharp onto a Mr Mannaway, a schools' inspector in Albermarle County, who suggested that Sharp should meet Mr N D Chisholm, 'a first rate folksinger', 51 and a Mrs Campbell, both of Brown's Cove, a small settlement in the Shenandoah Valley". I can't find a "Wardbridge, VA". But Brown's Cove is where Paul Clayton lived and collected songs and there are Chisholms there. Check out this wonderful site: http://www.klein-shiflett.com/shifletfamily/HHI/GeorgeFoss/whall.html? Also, if you have a copy of DEEP THE WATER, check on page 11 to see if there is something about this song. My copy just got recalled by the library. And, I found this: http://books.google.com/books?id=i1dDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA259&dq=grog+time+of+day&cd=3#v=onepage&q=grog%20time%20of%20day&f=false And what in the world do you make of this?! Is there a later edition of Dana that has been revised? http://books.google.com/books?id=eIBaAAAAMAAJ&q=grog+time+of+day&dq=grog+time+of+day&lr=&cd=108 |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 04 Mar 10 - 07:40 PM Here is the site for the information on C. Sharp in the Appalachians. Check the end of the year 1916 for the information about Brown's Cove: http://mustrad.org.uk/articles/sharp.htm |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Mar 10 - 07:59 PM Gibb and John- Mr. Chisholm may well have been an ex-sailor or soldier, or good buddy or relative to one. Everyone loves a good tune, and evidently the words helped folks remember that tune; works for me, I know. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:11 PM That revised Dana text is hilarious. It's like someone planted it just to trip us up. Otherwise, I can't explain it! DEEP THE WATER quotes the SERVICE AFLOAT text that you found, John. That version of "Grog Time a Day" exactly matches the prosody (if I'm using the right term?) of "Doodle Let Me Go". I'd forgotten that DEEP THE WATER also has "Fine Time o' Day", which has been performed by Finn & Haddie, incidentally. Give me a moment, and I'll try to summarize what is there. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:26 PM Abrahams is citing 2 references to show maritime work songs in the West Indies in the 1830s. The first is from TRANSATLANTOC SKETCHES (1833), in which a river trip in Guiana in 1831 is described. There is a rowing song which is a variation of what is now known as "The Sailor Likes His Bottle O". http://books.google.com/books?id=NsERAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=alexander+t The passage seems to also refer to "Bear Away Yankee," which Abrahams himself collected in the Caribbean and which gives the title of his book. Pg. 54. The other reference is also to a rowing song, "Fine Time o' Day." It appears with musical transcription in WEST INDIA SKETCH BOOK (1835). Pg. 241. sketch book |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: John Minear Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:16 PM It would seem that "Napolean's Retreat" is the same as "Bonaparte's Retreat". Here is a not very good recording from Kentucky: http://aca-dla.org/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=/Berea&CISOPTR=1476 It comes from here: http://aca-dla.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Berea&CISOPTR=1476&REC=17 |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Snuffy Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:23 AM Evidence from Carpenter's singers indicates a fair antiquity for "Bully in the Alley": James Forman was born 1844 and went to sea in 1856, and Carpenter's notes say 'Learned as a boy before going to sea.' Edward Robinson, was older (b 1834, to sea 1846), and Carpenter's handwritten notes to his version say 'cotton screwing' and (puzzlingly) 'Captain Page heard the chantey about 1853.' Captain Page (b 1835, to sea 1849) was another old salt, apparently at the same sailors' rest home as Capt Robinson. These are just snippets available from the online index: when Carpenter's full text and notes are available, we may well be able to push the dates of several shanties back from the '80s to the '50s or even '40s. |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Charley Noble Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:27 AM John- "Bonaparte's Retreat" is still a standard contradance tune. That is indeed a puzzling revision of Dana. In my volume the "quoted" paragraph is on pages 259-260. And I have you both to thank for what just happened to the pile of books on my desktop when I pulled TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST out from the bottom. ;~( Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung? From: Charley Noble Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:44 AM Snuffy- Evidently "Bully in the Alley" was also used by stevedores screwing bales of wool on the Sydney docks in the late 19th century, as the song is referenced in poems by the Australian poet Edwin J. Brady who worked as a tally clerk on Circular Quay. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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