From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:18 PM

Blow Boys Blow (Congo River) seems to be the only shanty that sometimes includes verses related to the slave trade, and most likely when that trade was illegal in the States.

It's interesting that such anachronistic verses actually survived to be written down.

C. Fox Smith in her introduction to the song in A BOOK OF SHANTIES, 1927, says:

This shanty is said to have referred originally to the slave trade, and some versions give a number of stanzas in which the Congo River is mentioned...

Frank Shay in AN AMERICAN SAILOR'S TREASURY, 1948, includes what he describes as a "maverick verse" collected in New England:

Oh, Captain Hall was a Boston slaver,
Blow, boys, blow!
He traded in n*****s and loved his Maker,
Blow, my bully boys, blow!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:57 PM

Charley, thanks for these additional references. The one from Shay is almost exactly the same as the one from Berger - Ball to Hall, and Yankee to Boston. Unless someone else comes up with some more material, I'm going to move my attention on to the whalers. There should be a little more to go on there. I realize that there is overlap amongst my categories.

Whaling went on for a long time, and it was certainly happening in the decades leading up to and following the voyages of the "Julia Ann". Captain Pond's First Mate on his third and fourth voyages was Peter Coffin. Pond recruited Coffin when he took the "Julia Ann" to Stillicome at the head of Puget Sound to load timber for Sydney for his Third voyage. At the time, Coffin was the captain of a Revenue Cutter and "an old whaler of fifteen years experience on the Pacific Ocean."

From Olmstead's INCIDENTS OF A WHALING VOYAGE , we've already listed "Drunken Sailor" and "Haul Her Away", which he dates in 1840. Early versions of "Highland Laddie" were definitely sung on board the whalers. We've just noted that some versions of "Blow Boys, Blow" were sung on board the whalers. I'm still looking with regard to the whalers. I know that "Ranzo" is one.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:25 PM

US Slave ships may have been illegal, but the ships continued to bring slaves to southern ports and to Brazil right up to the Civil War.
See Voyage to a Thousand Cares: Master's Mate Lawrence with the Africa Squadron, 1844-1846.
This is the story of a US sloop of war and its actions against American ships engaged in the slavery trade. One ship taken has 900 slaves, of whom 200 died after rescue as they were being taken to Liberia to be freed.

The US ship , from NY Yacht Club with Yankee owners, was the last to be fitted out for the slave trade. Fitted in Port Jefferson (stopped but freed by authorities) and at Charleston, SC, the ship sailed to Africa, took on 600 slaves and unloaded 465 survivors at Jekyll Island, Georgia, in 1858.
Northern Profits from Slavery

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:27 PM

The 1858 US ship was the Wanderer

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM

The lines about "Captain Ball," set to "Blow the Man Down," not "Blow, Boys, Blow," seems to have been written by the poet Stephen Vincent Benet for "John Brown's Body" (1928).

Benet has Captain Ball say they've "even made a song" about him. In Benet's version, "slaver" rhymes with "Saviour."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:34 PM

The copyright for Benet's book is 1927 and 1928. Shay's book that contains the "maverick verse" was published in 1948. But it is based on an earlier version from 1924. However, this earlier work by Shay has no mention of the "maverick verse" and, it doesn't have the last verse which contains the line about the "Congo River". See here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/ironmenwoodenshi00shayrich#page/10/mode/2up

Berger's book, mentioned above, was published in 1941. So where did this "maverick verse" come from? I suppose it's possible that Shay got it from Berger, but that doesn't seem likely to me. Is Benet's literary adaptation/creation the source? But Benet's verse is supposedly from "Blow the Man Down" and not "Blow Bullies Blow". Perhaps Benet knew of the old New England whaling verse but switched it to another song for his literary purposes. Perhaps the verse was used in both songs. I seems unlikely to me that Shay and Berger would have taken this from Benet and changed the song. Benet is the literary person here. I would think that it is more likely that he adapted it. In any case, this verse, which could be an important link to the slave traders is clouded.

And with regard to the "Congo River" verses, here is what I have found so far. C. F. Smith mentions that they existed but doesn't quote them. They show up in the Frothingham collection mentioned above (1924). One verse shows up in the Shay revision of 1948. Doeflinger (1951) has "Congo River" in one verse and mentions that "this shanty recalls the old Guinea trade." (pages 25-26). Colcord says that this song "started life as a slaving song" and gives the Congo River verse ( p. 47).   And we have Hugill's version from his 1961 book, which he says he got from "an Australian seaman, ex-"Manurewa" and "Silver Pine". (page 226). Do we have any other references to the "Congo River" version?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 08:31 AM

John-

I first heard the "slave trading version" on BLOW BOYS BLOW (of course!) by MacCall & Lloyd and their notes attribute the song to "the West African run, during the slave trade...the stanza about the packet-ship firing its gun may date from the Civil War, or may refer to an anti-slavery patrol." I always assumed that the "fires her gun, can't you hear the racket" was simply the slave ship announcing her departure as she makes her way down the Congo River.

In Lloyd's FOLK SONG IN ENGLAND, 1967. pp. 301-302, he points out that some sets of verses associated with "Blow Boys Blow" are also sung with Shallow Brown" as the chorus. Lloyd also mentions in this book, p. 308, that "Sally Brown" is one of the oldest shanties, being noted by Captain Marryat while he was aboard" a Western Ocean packet in 1837."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 11:45 AM

"seems unlikely to me that Shay and Berger would have taken this from Benet and changed the song. Benet is the literary person here. I would think that it is more likely that he adapted it."

Unlikely? Why? Simple and easy, especially if they assumed, as one might like to, that Benet had inside information. There's no basis for that assumption. What's more, the captain in Benet's poem really is named "Captain Ball."

Without a stated traditional source, there's no basis for accepting Benet's verse (or anyone else's) as traditional in any way.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM

Lighter, I really shouldn't try to write these notes when I'm tired at the end of the day. Especially when I lose the first two attempts! By the time I finally got that note posted, I'm not sure what I was trying to say or in fact what I did say. What I would say in the clear light of day is that whatever the unknown source of Shay's "maverick verse", etc., without that source, we don't have much to go on today. I'll let Benet, Berger and Shay stand on their own for what they are worth, but I'm not going to go any further with them.

Likewise with the "Congo River" verses. It's clear they were sung. Colcord doesn't say when or where she might have heard this verse herself or that she got it from her father, which would have put it either between 1890-99, or as far back as 1874. Doerflinger's version is from Richard Maitland, who went to sea in 1869 at the age of 12, but we don't know when Maitland heard or learned his version. So, I'm not going to pursue "Blow Boys Blow" as a strong candidate for a shanty from the slaver ships. However, a version may have originated in that context.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 03:10 PM

Up until the age of eighteen Joanna Colcord sailed with her father to many distant parts of the world:

1889-1890: Portland(ME)-Buenos Aires-Rosario-Boston
1890-1892: New York-Penang-Singapore-Shanghai-Hong Kong-New York
1894-1895: Portland(ME)-Buenos Aires-Rosario-Boston
1895-1897: New York-Port Elizabeth-Durban-Newcastle(NSW)-Mollendo-Astoria-Portland(OR)-Santa Rosalia-Victoria(BC)-Tacoma
1899-1900: New York-Hong Kong-New York
1900-1901: New York-Hong Kong-New York

According to her brother's introduction in SONGS OF AMERICAN SAILORMEN (1938), Joanna collected the vast majority of her shanties directly from the sailors on her father's ships, and some from her father and some from other retired sailors.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 04:46 PM

It seems pertinent to give Colcord's lines and words about slaving, and about "Blow, Boys, Blow" since they are discussed somewhat obliquely here.
"A group of famous old shanties had their origin in the packet-trade with Liverpool, which developed soon after the close of the war of 1812."
Her primary version, following that quote, begins "A Yankee ship came down the river" (name of river not specified). The captain was "Bully Hayes." Following the chantey, she writes of the chantey being taken over by "the 'packet-rats' of the Western Ocean, and celebrated the brutalities aboard the Atlantic liners" and "Doubtless all of the well-known masters and mates .... have heard themselves picturesquely described in this shanty; but it is Captain Hayes, who was lost in the Rainbow in 1848, whose name seems to have survived."

Following the chantey and musical score, she says, ""Blow, Boys, Blow" started life as a slaving song, the opening couplet being "A Yankee ship on the Congo River, ...."
She gives another couplet, "dating evidently from the Civil War ....
What do you think she's got for cargo? Old shot and shell, she breaks the embargo."

Obviously Colcord regarded the chanty as belonging to the period after the War of 1812, and up to and including the Civil War, and that it included versions concerning the continued trade in slaves despite US law.

Yankee slavers (mostly sailing from the southern ports but also from the northern ports but with other destinations stated rather than the African slave ports) continued to operate during the entire period because of the enormous profit in the slave trade, undeterred by the US law. Some were stopped by the US Navy (see previous post) but that didn't stop the trade.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:35 PM

Charley, thanks for providing that information on Colcord's time at sea. It helps make her work a lot more concrete for me. And, Q, thanks for giving the rest of what Colcord has to say about "Blow Boys Blow". Your interpretation of that makes sense to me.

I came across a verse in Hugill's "Alabama/John Cherokee" that intrigued me. The shanty tells the tale of "John Cherokee, The injun man from Miramashee" and how "They made him a slave down in Alabam". Apparently he kept running away, so "They shipped him aboard of a whaling ship", but "Agen an' agan he gave'em the slip." But, "they cotched him agen an' they chained him tight, Kept him in the dark without any light." (page 439/'61) .

The line that caught my attention was "They shipped him aboard of a whaling ship,". This reminded me of Hugill's (d) version of "Shallow Brown", which has the verse "Ship on board a whaler," and "Massa going to sell me... to a Yankee." (page 260/'61) I'm wondering if these verses from both "John Cherokee" and this version of "Shallow Brown" might not reflect the use of whaling ships as slavers in the period that Q discusses above. Sharp has basically the same version of "Shallow Brown" here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/englishfolkchant00shar#page/60/mode/2up

My assumption had been, with regard to the "Shallow Brown" shanty that the slave was being sold so that he could become a *seaman* on a whaling ship. To "ship on board a whaler" would seem to imply that. But who is the slave and who is being sold in this song, Shallow Brown or Juliana? What if Shallow Brown is the slave that is being sold to a Yankee and is being *shipped* north on a whaling ship? And thus he has been separated *by his own sale* from Juliana who must stay behind.

This makes sense when seen in the light of "John Cherokee". There, John was a slave and they "shipped" him aboard a whaling ship, and he kept running away until they put him in chains. We know that whalers were also used as slavers. So is it possible that these two songs actually reflect such a use?

And then there is the version of "Shallow Brown" given by Sharp that uses the verses from "Blow Boys Blow", (it does not mention the Congo River):

http://www.archive.org/stream/englishfolkchant00shar#page/34/mode/2up

I would assume that this is the song that Lloyd is referring to in Charley's not above.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 07:42 PM

John,
History seems to say that whaling ships were an escape and a safe haven for slaves and potential-slaves. The Yankee whaling ship owners have been noted as staunch abolitionists. And in the whaling trade, a number of African-Americans rose to prominence. Anything is possible though, I suppose; I am just noting the general trend as I understand it from such works as BLACK JACKS and BLACK HANDS, WHITE SAILS.

"John Cherokee", as I read the words, wasn't necessarily shipped on the whaling ship against his will. That was his *escape* (i.e. boarding masters shipped him, or he shipped himself), and how he gave them the slip. After that, they caught him again.

Gibb

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 08:02 PM

John-

Don't ask me where I read this but I seem to remember that some slave owners rented out their slaves to whaling captains to fill out their crews.

On the other hand there were Black whaling captains such as Capt. Boston who manned their ships with all Black crews. Bet they did some fine singing! Barry Finn and Neil Downey did a great job of resetting a song to music about Capt. Boston found in an old log book in their rendition of the "Schooner Industry" on their recording FATHOM THIS, © 2007.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:35 PM

Gibb, I'm in over my head on this one. I really don't have the historical background on slavery. My thinking was influenced by the Berger reference:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZC4diHs-RWMC&pg=PA43&dq=%22Blow+Boys+Blow%22&lr=&cd=149#v=onepage&q=%22Blow%20Boys%20Blow%22&f=

Scroll back up a page. There is too much that I don't know and the time frames keep slipping around on me a bit too much. I really appreciate all of the "course corrections" I've been getting here from everybody.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:37 PM

Epstein mentioned the practice of contracting out slaves to fill out crews on ships.

Yankee ship owners were abolitionists only in part- William Lloyd Garrison (1805-1879) spoke out against and printed attacks on the New England merchants who continued in the slave trade all during the first half of the 19th c. Maryland courts convicted and jailed Garrison for his attacks on one such trader; he had to leave Baltimore.

See Hugh Thomas, 1997, "The Slave Trade," Simon & Shuster.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:15 AM

Here's another footnote on slave trading.

The dubious honor of being the last American slave trader to be hanged in the United States goes to Captain Nathaniel Gordon in New York City on February 21, 1862: Click here for article!

For more information about this case read the recent book titled Hanging Captain Gordon: The Life and Trial of an American Slave Trader by Ron Soodalter.

I also agree that "John Cherokee" is not a good candidate for a slave trading shanty. It's a fine shanty, and a more curious mixture of Native-American/Black American/Canadian/Alabama sailor is not featured in any other shanty I'm familiar with.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM

Well, I'm not only in over my head on this thread, but I'm also being buried under a ton of snow down here in Virginia at the moment. I finally have figured out how to search Mudcat by using Google and I've turned up a bunch of stuff that I should have read before I jumped into the deep end here. There is a lot of good discussion that has already taken place on most of the things that I'm interested in at the moment. I want to post a few especially good links to other threads that I've come across.

These have to do with the issues of slavery, and of Black sailors. Here is one from Barry Finn from back in December of 2006 to the "Black Jacks, history and shanties" thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=97356#1914431

And here is another one from him with a shanty from way back in September of 1999:

thread.cfm?threadid=2864#116742

And one from November of '01:

thread.cfm?threadid=2864#600658

However, in going through these old threads, and I am sure there are more of them, I have not found a references to shanties that might have been sung on board the slave ships by the crews of those ships, other than an occasional reference "the Congo River".

Charley, thanks for that article on Captain Gordon and the "Erie". Here is a quote:

"It was in evidence (given by Lieutenant Henry D. Todd, U.S.N.) that the ship Erie was first discovered by the United States steamer Mohican, on the morning of the 8th day of August, 1860; that she was then about fifty miles outside of the River Congo, on the West Coast of Africa, standing to the northward, with all sail set; that she was flying the American flag, and that a gun from the Mohican brought her to."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 02:07 PM

John-

There's the long focs'le ballad "The Flying Cloud" which describes a slaving voyage and which is then transforms into piracy, in SONGS OF AMERICAN SAILORMEN, pp. 145-147.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 02:17 PM

With trading mostly outlawed, records of on-board activities on slavers of the 19th c. will be very rare.

My thanks also for the article on Gordon.

The reference to "Hard Times in Old Virginia" thread 2864, post by Barry Finn, is without reference, but it comes from Lydia Parrish, Slave Songs of the Georgia Sea Islands, 1969.
She found it on Sapelo, a 'shanty' combined with "Aye Lord, Buddin' of the Fig Tree," and "My Old Missus Promise Me." Doubtfully a work song.
No other information.
Barry Finn worked it up as a chantey.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 04:27 PM

Q-

Capt. Gordon was a native of the State of Maine and maybe this February 21 we should raise a glass to him, or not! Ordinarily slaving captains were not actually hung but Capt. Gordon's sentence happened to coincide with the beginning of the Civil War and President Lincoln wasn't in the mood to grant a pardon.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 10:50 AM

About twenty years after the "Julia Ann" was arriving at Sydney and then sailing on down to Melbourne and then to Newcastle for a load of coal and being hit by a "buster" in Sydney harbor, we have Frederick Pease Harlow's account of the "Akbar" arriving in Sydney and Melbourne and then going Newcastle for a load of coal. There must be a lot of similarities between the voyages of these two ships, even though they are twenty years apart. And Harlow gives us shanties!

The Akbar left Boston Harbor on June 8, 1876. Harlow says, " The "Akbar" sailed from Sydney June 8, 1876 to Newcastle, for a cargo of coal for Surabaya, Java." (p. 38). Then a bit later he says, "On the fourth day out [from Newcastle] we ran into a "southerly buster."   This caused enough damage that they were forced to head back to Sydney, arriving there on August 3. After repairs were made, the "Akbar" left for Java on November 14th.

From page 32, to page 103, Harlow gives a running account of the events from the arrival at Melbourne to the final departure from Sydney. In these pages, he gives about 45 different shanties and versions of shanties, most with tunes. And most of these he claims were being sung on the Akbar at the time these events took place. His account is a running narrative with the shanties given at the appropriate places when they were used.

Allowing for the fact that this is a reconstructed, literary narrative, but one based on the actual experience of a young man, and on notes and journals as well as memory, this is an amazing account. Almost all of the shanties that Harlow gives for this particular segment are familiar ones.

Now, on the one hand, twenty years is a long time and a lot changes in twenty years. Where were you and what were you doing on February 7, 1990? Look how much has happened since then! And yet there is definitely continuity as well. And our world is supposed to be on overdrive in terms of the speed of change. I'm sure that certain changes happened fast in the 1860s and '70s as well. But there was also continuity. For one thing, it is entirely possible and likely that some of the men Harlow sailed with in 1876 had been around in 1855.

And it seems likely that many of these shanties would have also been around in 1855. He doesn't give any of them as "new" or "recently made" songs. The verses would change - every time they were sung - but the basic songs remained familiar. The jobs basically remained the same. The "Akbar" was "about 1000 tons burden, carried three royal yards and was hemp rigged." (page 13). She was bigger than the "Julia Ann", but many of the tasks must have been similar.

I realize that one cannot make any final statements about 1853-1855 based on an account of something happening in 1875-1876. But I think you might get a fairly good sense of what it *could* have been like on the "Julia Ann" by reading Harlow's account. Harlow ends his book with a marvelous poem of his own which describes these same events, on pages 237-238, called "While I Am At The Wheel".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 11:05 AM

Harlow's book THE MAKING OF A SAILOR, OR SEA LIFE ABOARD A YANKEE SQUARE-RIGGER, which was supposed to originally be THE MAKING OF A SAILOR: CHANTEYING ON THE AKBAR, was published in 1928. The "chantey" part of the book was not finally published until 1962, after Harlow's death. It has been republished in 2004 by the Mystic Seaport Museum. I would suppose that Harlow was working on his memoirs and chanteys in the 1920s, and perhaps earlier. Pond wrote his memoirs in 1895. In both cases, Harlow and Pond were "recollecting" about forty years or so after the events which they recall.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 11:57 AM

The Harlow book is certainly a good read, and it's rare to have shanties printed in the context of when and where they were sung. And the book is readily available from Mystic Seaport for those who have such an interest.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: GUEST,warren fahey
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 10:36 PM

very interesting forum John - I do have some recent information gleaned from the digitized Australian newspapers. A bit flat out at the moment but I'll try and get it to you. Can I have a direct email. The information - including first-hand accounts of Australian shanties - will go up on my site but that queue is still rather large.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:48 AM

Thanks, Warren. It is good to have you here. Just hit PM after my name on one of my posts to email me. I really appreciate your work and have been enjoying your CD "Across the Seven Seas". Anything you could send me I would appreciate, and anything you feel like posting here would be great.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 08:07 AM

Welcome aboard, Warren!

Do consider becoming a regular member at Mudcat so we can communicate with you more directly, via PM for example. I'd also like to discuss with you some of the stevedore poems of E. J. Brady.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:50 AM

I've just about finished my look into what I would call "shanties sung on board the whalers". Once again, the information seems to be a bit scarce. I want to begin by distinguishing the following four categories:

1. Songs sung on board of the whaling ships
2. Shanties that mention whaling
3. Whaling songs used as shanties (maybe on the whalers?)
4. Other shanties that *may* have been sung on the whalers
5. Shanties that are actually documented as having been sung on the whalers

Since I am still focusing on the period leading up to and immediately following the voyages of the "Julia Ann" in 1853-1855, I'm primarily interested in whaling shanties that come before that period, and could have been current among the ships' crews in San Francisco and Sydney, as well as Melbourne, Newcastle, Tahiti, and Honolulu. Shanties from the twenty or thirty year period after the wreck of the "Julia Ann" may obviously reflect an earlier period and may have been sung in an earlier period.

I will deal with the first category of "songs sung on board the whaling ships" - other than shanties - first. One only has to look at Gale Huntington's book SONGS THE WHALEMEN SANG, to know that there was a *lot* of singing going on aboard the whalers. His collection not only comes mostly from the first half of the 19th century, but it is historically documented because it is taken from actual logs and journals from that time period. But as far as I can see, he doesn't list a single shanty and doesn't even mention shanty-singing on board the whalers! [Please correct me if I am wrong here.]

Apparently some of these songs that were popular among the whalemen were adapted for shanty use, at least on ships other than whalers, and may also have been used as such by the whalers themselve. I'll return to this category later. But, for now, "songs sung..." are not the same as shanties.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:51 PM

What are the shanties that mention whaling or have it as a central topic? Perhaps the oldest one of these is one quoted in THE QUID (London, 1832). Doerflinger says that this is the "work of an anonymous author who signs himself only as "a Steerage Passenger," it describes a typical voyage to the Orient in a ship of the Honorable East India Company...." (p. 93) Two (or three?) examples are mentioned. First of all is "Pull away now, my Nancy, O!", with no words given, and then there is this verse:

        "Oh her love is a sailor,
        His name is Jemmy Taylor,
        He's gone in a whaler
        To the Greenland sea!"

and

        "Oh! if I had her,
        Eh then if I had her,
        Oh! how I would love her
        Black although she be."

It's not clear from the context whether these are two different songs or two verses from the same song. Doerflinger gives another old Scottish song on page 307 of his book SONGS OF THE SAILOR AND LUMBERMAN called "Were You Ever In Dumbarton" which has some similar words to "oh! if I had her".

The most obvious example of a shanty that mentions whaling is probably "Reuben Ranzo". W.B. Whall, who went to sea in 1861, gives us a version of this shanty in his book SEA SONGS AND SHANTIES   He says this might have been derived from the name "Lorenzo", "for Yankee whalers took a large number of their men from the Azores, men of Portuguese descent...." (p. 60)

W.L. Alden, in his 1882 article in Harpers, gives a verse and the music for "Randso" (p. 264) which gives the verse about him shipping "on board a whaler".

http://books.google.com/books?id=SsoaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA284&dq=-+Randso&cd=2#v=onepage&q=-%20Randso&f=false

Doerflinger gives a version by Captain Richard Maitland and one by Captain Patrick Tayluer. Maitland went to sea at the age of 12 in 1869. Tayluer went to sea "about 1885" (p. 323). Maitland's version is the more commonly heard type and Tayluer's gives more "whaling" details but is perhaps later.

Another shanty that mentions whaling is "Tommy's Gone To Hilo". In his book AMERICAN SEA SONGS AND CHANTEYS, Frank Shay says that "Hilo" or Ilo, the southernmost port in Peru, was "something of a message center for whalers." (p. 56). One of the verses found in this shanty mentions that

        "Tommy's gone on a whalin'-ship,
        Oh, Tommy's gone on a damn long trip."   (Hugill, p. 262/'61)

There is an old whaling song known as "The Coast of Peru", which Huntington has from the "Bengal" dated 1832.

        "Our captain has told us
        And we hope it will come true
        That there's plenty of sperm whales
        On the coast of Peru."

He says this song "probably dates back to the last quarter of the eighteenth century when whaling in the Pacific was still new." (p. 4, SONGS THE WHALEMEN SANG)

Two other shanties, which have already been mentioned that refer to whaling are "Shallow Brown"

        "Ship on board a whaler." (Hugill, p. 260/'61)

and "John Cherokee",

        "They shipped him aboard of a whalin' ship." (Hugill, p. 439/'61)

Hugill's "Sister Susan"/"Shinbone Al" has:

        "A whaler's life is no life for me,
        I jumped her an' I left the sea,
        I ran right back to Shinbone Alley." (Hugill, p. 391/'61)

Are there other shanties that mention whaling? I know that some of the whaling songs like "Tis Advertised in Boston" were used as shanties, but I think that's a different category.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:16 PM

Another forebitter was the folk-processed versions of "Lowlands of Holland" which was transformed into "The Cold Coast of Greenland" as recorded by Bill and Gene Bonyun on Songs of Yankee Whaling, Heirloom Records, © 1960.

On that same recording is "The Bonnie Ship The Diamond" in which the Bonyuns note that this whaling ship was lost with twenty other ships in the ice off Melville Bay in 1830.

Also on the recording is the mournful ballad "Ship in Distress" which focuses on the cannibalism that took place in the lifeboats after a whale sank the whaling ship Essex.

"We'll Rant and We'll Roar" is the transformation by Yankee whalermen of the old English forebitter "Spanish Ladies."

"Reuben Ranzo", the Bonyuns notes, was a shanty and a favorite of whalermen, and in one version Ranzo does end up becoming "captain of a whaler."

"The Little Mohea" (aka "The Little Maui") was also noted by the Bonyuns as a great favorite aboard the whaling ships, and they suggest that the tune itself came from the traditional Tahitian song "E Tau Hoa Here" which is also on their recording as sung by Eilienne LaRoche.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:32 PM

Unless someone can produce a broadside or some other early text, I'm afraid that "The Cold Coast of Greenland" looks like another Lloyd creation.

Lloyd and MacColl recorded an LP called "There She Blows!" around 1957 made up entirely of whaling songs.

I can post the titles if you like.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 02:51 PM

Songs in Journals pre-1850; Gale Huntington, 1964 and reprints, "Songs the Whalemen Sang," Barre Pub., Dover and Mystic.
Songs found in logs.
Songs of the 1850s should be included.
This list is to remind me to look for other versions and variants of songs sung on ship c. 1850. Some may have been sung by the common seaman.
Of course there are the songs of Charles Dibdin and Charles Dibdin Junior, and many others, but many would have been forgotten by 1850.

The Coast of Peru, 1832
The Whalefish Song, 1849
The Greenland Whale, 1833
The Cruise of the Dove, 1845
Our Old Friend Coffin, 1846
The Wounded Whale, 1836
The Ship Euphrasia, 1849
A Wet Sheet and a Flowing Sea, 1844
Sling the Flowing Bowl, 1839
Loose Every Sail to the Breeze, 1795
Captain James, 1768, 1840, etc.
The Topsail Shivers in the Wind, 1876, 1835
The Sequel to Will Watch, 1847
Will Watch, ?c. 1820
The Sea, 1847
Saturday Night at Sea, 1843
I Was Once a Sailor, 1843
Hearts of Gold, 1832
The tempest, 1827
The Can of Grog, 1776
The Pirate of the Isles, 1847
The Demon of the Sea, 1847
The Rover of the Sea, 1849
Most Beautiful, 1837
The Sea Ran High, 1833
The Ocean Queen, 1845
Neptune, 1848
The Dauntless Sailor, 1808
The Sovereign of the Sea, 1776
A Life on the Ocean Wave, 1847 (But much earlier)
Covent Garden, 1828
Cupid's Garden, 1767
William Taylor, 1817
The Tarry Trousers, 1847
The Captain Calls All Hands, 1832
A Young Virgin, 1817
The Nobleman's Daughter, 1840
John Riley, 1847
The British Man-of-War, 1847
Pretty Sally, 1845
The Beggarman, 1845
Bright Phoebe, 1847
The Dark-eyed Sailor, 1847
Our Ship She Is Lying in Harbour, 1847
The Silvery Tide, 1847
The Ship Carpenter, 1767
The Lily of the West, 1844
Lovely Caroline, 1845
The Turkish Lady, 1768
The Times, 1804
The Sons of Liberty, 1790
The Lass of Mohee, 1847
The Heathen Dear, 1832
The Moon Is Brightly Beaming Love, 1847
Shearing Day, 1832

(More to come)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 04:19 PM

(Con't.)
Sarah Maria Cornell, 1845
Banks of the Schuylkill, 1840
Banks of Champlain, 1839
A New Liberty Song, 1776
A Song of the Nantucket Ladies, 1819
Springfield Mountain, 1845 (late parody)
Blessed Land of Love and Liberty, 1839
Sons of Worth, 1808
John Bull's Epistle, 1817
Of Yankee Manufacture, 1849 (Banks of Sacramento var.)
The Captain, 1833
The Confession, 1836
Virtuous America, 1844
Willie Gray, 1846

BRITISH ISLES ORIGIN

The Shepherds Dughter, 1795
A New Song, 1776
The Croppie Boy, 1827
Queen of the May, 1832
Song on Courtship, 1819
When First into this Country, 1847
O Logie O Buchan, 1827
Fair Betsy, 1847
I Had a Handsome Fortune, 1847
Bonaparte on St. Helena, 1827
The Bonny Bunch of Roses-O, 1847
Bonaparte, 1834
The Green Linnet, 1847
One Night Sad and Languid, 1847
A Farmer's Boy, 1845
The County of Tyrone. 1847
Rinordine, 1845
Behind the green Bush, 1768
Reily's Jailed, 1845
The Shepherd's Lament, 1767
Women Love the Kissing as Well as the Men, 1768
Fanny Blair, 1839

PARLOR SONGS
Silvery Moor, 1847
Willie's on the dark Blue Sea, 1849
The Banks of Banna, 1795
The Maid of Erin, 1847
Adieu My Native Land, 1847
Angel's Whisper, 1847
The Bride's Farewell, 1840
The Dying Soldier, 1853
Mary's Dream, 1847
The Ocean, 1840
Thou Hast Learned to Love Another, 1842
Jamie's on the Stormy Sea, 1849
Adieu to Erin, 1847
Blow High Blow Low, 1847
The Rose of Allendale, 1849 (Mary's Cot, 1848)
The Beacon Light, 1835

FRAGMENTS
A New Sea Song, 1817
Down Wapping, 1847
The Bible Story, 1769
Farewell My Dear Nancy, 1847
The Turkey Factor in Foreign Parts, 1769
A Sailor's Trade is a Roving Life, 1847 (Dig me a grave verse)
Hunter's Lane, 1849
Fare You Well, 1827 ?
Moll Brooks, 1849
Nelson, 1847
Come Let Us Be Jolly, 1813
Ye Parliaments of England, 1846
Old Horse, 1842

LAST BUT NOT LEAST (unclassified)
Wait For the Wagon, 1853
Prayer, 1834 (marine)
The Pilot 1833
The Lord Our Guide 1834
Row On, 1846
The Recruiting Sargeant, 1769
The Post Below, 1835
A Love Song in the Year 1769, 1769
Elegy on the Death of a Mad Dog, 1819 (Goldsmith?)
A Charming Fellow, 1776
The Wreath, 1847
As I Grow Old, 1808
The Sailor's Farewell, 1833
Terrible Polly, 1817
The Wide World of Waters, 1832
Song of Solomon's Temple, 1827
Poll and Sal, 1817
Billy O'Rourke, 1849
Now We Steer Our Course for Home, 1843

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 04:26 PM

Lighter-

Bill and Gene Bonyun were long-time family friends and I know they sang "The Cold Coast of Greenland" years before they recorded it. They certainly didn't get theirs lyrics from Lloyd and MacColl but I'll have to do some more research to find out who did collect the song. The Bonyuns did recognize that the song was folk-processed from "The Lowlands of Holland."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 04:53 PM

Q, Lighter and Charlie, thanks for all of your information. Q is certainly documenting my first category of "songs sung on board the whaling ship, which aren't shanties".   Lighter, thanks for the heads up on "The Cold Coast of Greenland". It had not shown up in any of my searches. Charlie, I'll be looking further at some of the songs you mention.

In my third category of whale related songs, I am looking at songs about and presumably sung by whalers that were probably used as shanties on both whaling and non-whaling ships. Harlow gives the two classics: "Tis Advertised in Boston" and "The Greenland Whale". He says that "Tis Advertised in Boston" (pp. 211-213) was used as a "windless" shanty. He gives a different chorus for this:

        "Cheer up my lively lads, in spite of stormy weather,
        Cheer up my lively lads, we'll all get drunk together."

Hugill, on page 221-222/'61, gives much the same version and says that it was used at the capstan and pumps. However, his version makes no reference to whaling! He then gives "the whaler version", which he says is unique to Colcord, "who obtained it from an old logbook in the New Bedford Public Library." (p. 233) Her version is found in SONGS OF AMERICAN SAILORMEN (Oak, 1964), pp. 187-188. How can the "whaler version" be given only by Colcord when Harlow obviously has one? Huntington also has this song (pp. 42-46), from the "Elizabeth Swift" journal of 1859, and he says this song was "often used as a chantey"(!). [I was wrong in what I said about him never mentioning shanties in my previous note.] Is this the same source as Colcord?

The other whaling song used as a shanty, according to Harlow, is "The Greenland Whale". Harlow says it was used as a capstan shanty (p. 225), and that it was sung by a Negro sailor named Richard Duncan. (p. 243) Colcord gives it as a "forecastle song" (pp.147-148) Huntington has a version (pp.11-13) from the "Bengal" in 1833. Neither Colcord nor Huntington say anything about it being used as a shanty. Hugill does not mention this song in his SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS. He does mention both of these songs in SHANTIES AND SAILORS SONGS, but not as shanties.

Hugill says (on page 581/'61) about the forebitter "We'll Go To Sea No More", which in some versions talks about a sailor being shanghied, by old "Shanghai Brown" himself and shipped aboard a whaler bound for the Arctic Seas, that "most of my old shipmates seem to think that it *was* used as a shanty at both capstan and pumps." No one else makes this claim, although the song shows up in other collections.

I have been unable to find any other historical examples of whaling songs being used as shanties. There are a number of contemporary examples, such as some of those mentioned by Charley above.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 05:10 PM

Charley, I look forward to anything you can find out about "The Cold Coast of Greenland" - or any othyer sea songs!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 07:04 AM

So far, I have mentioned the following as possible shanties that could have been sung on board the whalers:

"Ranzo"
"Tommy's Gone To Hilo"
"Sister Susan"
"Tis Advertised In Boston"
"The Greenland Whale"
"We'll Go To Sea No More" (?)

I don't have a clear sense about either "Shallow Brown" or "John Cherokee" . Just because they mention whaling doesn't mean they would have been used as whaling shanties. Of course this is true of "Ranzo", "Tommy's Gone", and "Sister Susan" as well. Sometimes "Ranzo" almost seems like a parody of the whalers, like the merchantmen making fun of them. And of course, "Tommy" sails all over the world.

It does seem like "Ranzo" has been traditionally associated with the whalers. There are two others that might have had some reference to whaling. First of all, there is "Row, Bullies, Row", or as it it more commonly known "The Liverpool Judies". Hugill says the "shanty might quite well have been a whalers' rowing song, explaining perhaps why some versions give 'Row, Julia, row', in the chorus." (p. 403/'61) He goes on to say that "Whalers must have had many rowing songs, but unfortunately none have survived." In his book SHANTIES AND SAILORS SONGS, Hugill does suggest that this song probably originated in the 1840s, but says, there is "not actual proof" that it was ever used as a rowing song by the whalers. (p. 158).

I have not come across a version of "The Liverpool Judies" that actually makes a reference to whaling. It seems to me that the connection here is slim. The connection for the next song seems even more remote, but I'll mention it because it's out there as a theory. This is Hugill's suggestion that "Wild Goose Nation" really is "whale grease nation". He discusses this in relation to the "Huckleberry Hunting" shanty. (p. 251/'61) This is a shanty that is about Ranzo Ray. Hugill says, "Far-fetched? Yes! But as acceptable, I feel, as any of the previous theories!" Perhaps.

Out of the songs in this category, I think that only three are on very firm grounds for being used on board the whalers and they are the two whaling songs "Tis Advertised in Boston", and "The Greenland Whale", and then also "Ranzo".   Two of these certainly go back to the earlier part of the 19th century, and "Ranzo" may as well.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 08:22 AM

The "Cold Coast of Greenland" is somewhat elusive in terms of written sources. One German website which lists the song on tracks from Thar She Blows provides a link to the lyrics of the "Cold Coast of Iceland"! Close geographically but an unrelated song. The version that Gene Bonyun leads, as transcribed from Songs of Yankee Whaling is two verses shorter than what appears in the DT here:

As sung by Gene Bonyun
Recorded on Songs of Yankee Whaling, American Heritage/Heirloom Records, © 1960
Traditional, related to the "Lowlands of Holland"

The Cold Coast of Greenland

Last night I was a-married and on my marriage bed
There came a bold sea captain and to my love he said,
"Arise, arise, you brisk bonny lad and come along with me,
To the cold, cold coast of Greenland and the sperm whale fishery."

I held my love all in my arms, a-thinking he might stay
Till the cruel captain called his men and forced my love away.
Saying "It's many a bright and bold young man must sail this night with me
To the cold, cold coast of Greenland and the sperm whale fishery."

My love he went on shipboard and a lofty ship was she,
With a score of bold young whalermen to bare him company,
But the mainmast and the rigging they lie buried in the sea
Off the cold, cold coast of Greenland in the sperm whale fishery.

Said my father to me, "Daughter, what makes you so lament?
There's many a lad in our town can give your heart content."
"There is no lad in all our town, no lord nor duke for me,
Can ease my mind now the stormy brine has twined my love from me."

Here's a longer version:

The Cold Coast of Greenland

1. Last night I was a-married and on my marriage bed
    There came a bold sea captain and he stood at my bed's head
    Saying, "Arise, arise, you bonny brisk lad and come along with me,
    To the cold, cold coast of Greenland and the sperm whale fishery."

2. She held her love all in her arms, a-thinking he might stay
    Till the cruel captain came again - he was forced to go away.
    "It's many a bright and bold young man must sail this night with me
    To the cold, cold coast of Greenland and the sperm whale fishery."

3. Her love he went on shipboard and a lofty ship was she,
    With a score of bold young whalermen to bear him company,
    But the mainmast and the rigging they lie buried in the sea
    Off the cold, cold coast of Greenland in the sperm whale fishery.

4. Said the father to the daughter, "What makes you so lament?
    There's many a lad in our town can give your heart content."
    "There is no lad in our town, no lord nor duke," said she,
    Can ease my mind now the stormy wind has twined my love from me."

5. "No shoe nor stocking I'll put on nor comb go in my hair,
    Nor broad daylight nor candlelight shall in my room appear
    Nor shall I wed with any young man until the day I die,
    Now the cold, cold coast of Greenland has parted my love and I."

6. Oh, Greenland is a dreadful place, a place that's never green,
    It's a wild inhabitation for a lover to be in,
    Where the icebergs grow and the whales do blow and the sunset's never seen,
    And the cold, cold coast of Greenland lies between my love and me."

From the singing of Ewan MacColl on Thar She Blows!, © 1956
Riverside RLP 12-635
Child #92 aka "Lowlands of Holland"
JB
apr97

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 08:52 AM

And what of the shanties that we know were used on board of the whalers?    There were a few which have some documentation. First of all there is the shanty "Hieland Laddie". Hugill says that it "is based on an old Scottish march and dance tune and was very popular both as a walkaway and a capstan song in the old Dundee whalers and according to Davis & Tozer it was also used at halyards, withoout the final grand chorus." (p. 143/'61) Hugill's (a) version has heavy Scottish overtones and is all about whaling. He says that he learned it from Bosun Chenoworth, who had "sailed for years in the hard-bitten whaling ships of Dundee." (p. 144) Here is a Mudcat thread on this shanty:

thread.cfm?threadid=54643#2814365

And here is a link back to my previous discussion of this shanty above:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=188#2826380

We have already discussed the two shanties given by Olmstead in his book INCIDENTS OF A WHALING VOYAGE, which are a version of "Drunken Sailor" and a version of "Haul Her Away", or perhaps "Cheerily Men". Olmstead also mentions another shanty used for pulling the whale's teethto the tune of "O! hurrah my hearties O!":

http://books.google.com/books?id=oJUFAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA182&dq=%22O!+hurrah+my+hearties,+O!%22&lr=&cd=2#v=onepage&q=%22O!%20hurrah%20

Colcord, in her book SONGS OF THE AMERICAN SAILORMEN, mentions that the whalemen had their own verse for the shanty "Goodbye, Fare You Well!", which went:

        "The *whales* we are leaving, we leave with regret!" (p. 110)

She also gives us another piece of important documentation. In her introduction to the shanty "Santy Anna", she says,

        "The last whaler to return to New Bedford hauled into dock to the tune of this old shanty; and it was told me by one who was present tht the grim old seafarers who gathered on the pierhead to watch, shed tears unashamed as the well-remembered notes rang out across the harbor for the last time." (p. 80)

So, I think we can add these two shanties to our list: "Goodbye, Fare You Well!" and "Santy Anna".

In his introductory note to Frank T. Bullen's SONGS OF SEA LABOR (1914), none other than Arthur Conan Doyle makes the following interesting comment:

        "You have done real good national work in helping to preserve these fine old Chanties. Like yourself I have heard them many a time when I have been bending to the rhythm as we hauled up the heavy whaling boats to their davits."

Was Doyle referring to personal experience of being at sea on board a whaler? Or were "whaling boats" something found on other kinds of ships?

There is one other source that I have looked at and I'm not quite sure how to fit it into this discussion. That is the essay by Roger Abrahams in his book DEEP THE WATER, SHALLOW THE SHORE (1974), entitled "Solid Fas" Our Captain Cry Out: Blackfishing at Barouallie". In this essay Abrahams gives about twenty-five shanties used by the Barouallie whalers. Some of them are recognizable as being descendants of more commonly know traditional shanties, such as "All Through the Rain and Squally Weather"/ "Blow Boys Blow", "Oh, My Rolling River ("Solid Fas")/ "Shenandoah", "Those Girls from Bermuda"/ "Goodbye, Fare You Well", "Royo Groun'"/ "Rio Grande", "Little Boy Lonzo"/ "Ranzo", "Johnny Come Down to Hilo", "Blow the Man Down", "We Are Bound DownSouth Alibama" / "South Australia", "Rosebank Whores"/ "Sally Brown", and "Time for Man Go Home"/ "Time for Us to Leave Her".

These songs are obviously "whaling songs" and pretty obviously shanties. And they come from a region with strong historical ties to whaling. And they are very recently recorded. They would add substantially to the list of "whaling shanties", although they are not recently used on the deep water ships. Are they the living remnant of a tradition of old whaling shanties?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 09:11 AM

John-

Black sailors from the West Indies often made up a sizable portion of any whale ship's crew. And I think you're on firm ground with the suggestion that some of the blackfish whaling shanties of Barouallie are obvious relics of whaling shanties from deep-water whaling ships.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:14 AM

This about sums up my efforts to look at "whaling shanties" as an early category of shanty that might have been sung on board the "Julia Ann" in 1853-1855. We've already suggested that "Drunken Sailor" and "Highland Laddie" and "Nancy Fanana"/"Haul Her Away" ("Cheerily") could have been sung on the "Julia Ann" from earlier discussions. I would now add "Tis Advertised in Boston" and "The Greenland Whale". And I'm going to add "Ranzo".

Out in Australia, we find "Rueben Ranzo", "Drunken Sailor", and "Donkey Riding" (a version of "Highland Laddie") in the Carey Collection (from Warren Fahey's AUSTRALIAN FOLKLORE UNIT webpage), collected from George Pattison. We also find "Rueben Ranzo" and "Goodbye Fare You Well" from Malcolm Forbes in the same collection.

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s1.htm

Before I add either "Tommy's Gone to Hilo" or "Sister Susan", I want to do some more research on them in other contexts. And the same is true of "Santy Anna" and "Goodbye, Fare You Well". Colcord's reference with regard to "Santy Anna" is a late reference, and her reference to "Goodbye" is undated.

Of these, we find versions of "Ranzo", and "Goodbye, Fare You Well" from the Barouallie whalers. We also find versions of "Blow Boys Blow", "Rio Grande", "South Australia", "Sally Brown", and "Time for Us to Leave Her" being used as whaling shanties by the Barouallie whalers, which are all songs we have discussed above as possible candidates for the "Julia Ann". I'm not exactly sure how to get from the Baroullie whalers back to the early 1850s though.

Before I leave the subject of the whalers, I wanted to call attention to this link about Cape Verde whalemen:

http://www.umassd.edu/specialprograms/caboverde/whale.html

And to highly recommend this CD by my friend, Danny Spooner, called "The Great Leviathan - Songs of the Whaling Industry". There are also some whaling songs on his earlier CD "Launch Out On The Deep" (scroll down):

http://www.dannyspooner.com/discography.htm#CD

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 03:58 PM

I have two questions on this snowy afternoon in the Blue Ridge. First of all does anybody know of any references to shanties that were sung on pirate ships, and here I am making a distinction between "songs about pirates, such as "Captain Kidd" and working shanties? It is my understanding that most of the historical pirates were gone by the 1830s. Did they even use shanties at all? I'm thinking mainly about the time period between the end of the wars and end of the pirates from 1812 or 1815 to 1835. I am aware that Hugill says that "High Barbaree" was used as a capstan shanty. (p. 419-420/'61). However, he does not claim that it was actually sung on board pirate vessels. It is an old song, perhaps coming from the 1700s or earlier. Here is some Mudcat discussion:

thread.cfm?threadid=89254#1683172

My second question, is on a different subject. W.B. Whall says in the "Introduction" to his book SEA SONGS AND SHANTIES (first published in 1910):

   "Going to sea then, in 1861, in the old passenger-carrying East Indiamen, these Sailor Songs and Shanties struck me as worthy of preservation. During my eleven years in those ships, I took down the words and music of these songs as they were actually sulng by sailors, so that what I present here may be relied upon as the real thing." (p. xi)

The East India Company was finally dissolved on January 1, 1874, so Whall was a part of this in the very last days of its existence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company

This would mean that Whall's collection of shanties constitutes a relatively complete record of what was being sung on the East India Company ships in the '60s and early '70s, and what may have been sung on them earlier in the 19th century. Presumably he was sailing with much older men whose memory would go back at least twenty or thirty years.   If we are looking for "songs sung on the East India merchant ships", is this the gold mine?

Remember, I am looking for sea shanties that would have, could have, been around in the early 1850s that *could* have been sung on the "Julia Ann" on her voyages in 1853-1855 from San Francisco to Sydney. I have been looking at different categories of the history of sailing in the 19th century. So far I have considered the slave ships and the whalers. Now I'm interested in the 19th century pirates and the East India traders.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:01 PM

John-

With regard to pirate "shanties" I don't think you'll find a single one unique to pirates. However, some of the forebitters or ballads certainly were focused on the exploits or demise of certain pirates but generally were composed by non-pirates.

My favorite reference is Stuart Frank's THE BOOK OF PIRATE SONGS, © 1998.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:19 PM

John, those of Whall's shanties that he learned in 1861-62 certainly *might* have been in existence less than a decade earlier.

Beyond that, we can't say.

Charley, thanks for the Bonyuns' version of "Greenland." If they didn't record it till 1960, it seems most likely that it came, directly or indirectly, from MacColl & Lloyd.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM

Lighter-

But the Bonyuns were singing that version of the "Cold Coast of Greenland" in the early 1950's at our family music parties. However, I'm still puzzling over where they learned it, not having come across any earlier literary reference. I don't believe they would have had a copy of THAR SHE BLOWS, 1956, but I suppose it possible that one of their friends had a copy. There's no sign of this song in Colcord, C. Fox Smith, Hugill, Doerflinger, Palmer, Huntington, Whall, Bullen, Warners, or Lloyd. Anyone else have any better luck?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM

The Blackball Line was begun in 1816 and lasted until 1878. Here is some interesting background on the era of the Western Ocean Packets.

http://www.themonro.com/packetshipsfromt.html

While there is no written documentation from that period that I have been able to find with regard to the shanties sung on board the packet ships, there does seem to be general agreement about the songs that come from that era. Here is the list that I have so far. I am taking them from Hugill's SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS (1961), and will include Gibb Sahib's interpretation of some of them.

"Haul The Bowline" (pp. 353-357)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwMBUX5kPrw&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=171

"Blow Boys, Blow" (pp. 224-230), which we've already discussed at length. See here and following:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347#2828023

"We're All Bound To Go" (pp. 303-307)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHNizFUQTUM&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=145

"The Liverpool Judies" (pp. 401-402)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb7U-f3N3IQ&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=5

"Paddy Lay Back" (pp.. 321-325)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo0KJq1Xn5U&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=155

"Paddy Doyle's Boots" (pp. 330-334)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCDcZJs6gz8&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=157

"Paddy West" (pp.334-336)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OInKfWlt29A&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=160

"Banks Of Newfoundland" (pp. 412-413)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5bQHsjn-Fs&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=11

"Liverpool Packet" (pp. 466-469)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqftVU3xZHI&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=37

"Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her" (pp. 293-298)
        Especially "Across The Western Ocean"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Eko6TOiHY&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=140

"Blow The Man Down" (pp. 199-214), especially Hugill's (b) version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2Gt66yu9Qw&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=97

"Blackball Line" (pp. 130-133)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxy3L6ZU3cM&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=56

"Time For Us To Go" (pp. 509-510)
        Especially "A Hundred Years Ago"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaE6ZUM1wWE&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=55

"Can't You Dance The Polka" (pp. 369-372)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRM_fOOg9WQ&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=184

"Paddy Works On The Railway" (pp. 103-104)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WW7ktFM9gw&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=161

I have focused first of all on the Western Ocean Packet songs that don't show any direct Black influence or influence from the "cotton hoosiers" of the Southern ports. The exception might me "Blow The Man Down", which may be based on a song of Black origin known as "Knock A Man Down" (p. 199-200).

And I have focused on songs that were current during the early Irish emigrations brought on by the Potato Famine of 1845-1852. One of my own great grandfathers, George Edward Semple, from Clonmel, County Tipperary, sailed as a "ship's doctor" in 1849, on a crossing that took six weeks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

I am assuming that all of these songs, in one version or another, would have been current in New York and other eastern ports in the late 1840's and would have found their way to California during the Gold Rush of 1849, and thus would have been available in San Francisco to sail on board the "Julia Ann" on her voyages to Sydney in 1853-1855.

Can anyone think of a reason why any of these shanties would not have been current then in that location? And are there some which are more likely than others? And, have I missed some that might fit in this rather loose category?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 06:54 PM

John-

And your great grandfather failed to note what shanties were being sung, and their lyrics? What on earth was he doing?;~)

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 09:47 PM

"Can anyone think of a reason why any of these shanties would not have been current then in that location?"

Unfortunately I can: there is no documentation that they were. And   the researcher always bears the responisibility of establishing the reliability of the evidence before he goes on to discuss it or apply it.

As far as I can tell (and you may know more avout it than I do), any statement about particular shanties (and perhaps even shantying in general) in the period before Dana and "Steerage Passenger" is based entirely on inference, supposition, informed guesses, etc.

While it seems extremely likely, for reasons we know, that many or most of the well-known "revival" shanties - at least their tunes, choruses, and some of the familiar verses - were sung in the 1850s and earlier, we can't apply that very general statement to any particular shanties without particular documentation.

Words that might come in handy in a discussion of early shantying include "possibly," "plausibly," "conceivably," "presumably,"
"likely," and "uncertain," "unclear," and "maybe."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:02 PM

You're right Lighter. And I had been paying particular attention to that language, too. Here is how my sentences should have read:

"songs that don't *seem to* show any direct Black influence or influence from the "cotton hoosiers"

"I have focused on songs that *may have been* current during the early Irish emigrations brought on by the Potato Famine of 1845-1852."

"I am assuming that all of these songs, in one version or another, *could* have been current in New York and other eastern ports in the late 1840's and *could* have found their way to California during the Gold Rush of 1849, and thus *could* have been available in San Francisco to sail on board the "Julia Ann" on her voyages to Sydney in 1853-1855."

"Can anyone think of a reason why any of these shanties *could* not have been current then in that location?"

Not "would", but "could". And a lot of inference. At this point I will settle for "extremely likely".

Charley, it would seem that the shanty-singing was not all that remarkable at the time. Lighter is right. We just don't have documentation from anybody from that period about these songs, including my great grandfather.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 09:14 AM

And of course, from my post above, I said:

"While there is no written documentation from that period that I have been able to find with regard to the shanties sung on board the packet ships, there does seem to be general agreement about the songs that come from that era."

And I should have said:

"there does seem to be general agreement about the songs that *might have* come from that era."

I want to refer back to some excellent comments by Lighter earlier in this thread:

thread.cfm?
threadid=126347&messages=1#2827247

In another note posted above by Gibb Sahib, he says:

" If you look at all the discussions that have gone on (e.g. on Mudcat) about the advent of this or that chantey, you'll find that most are not *positively* documented during the period under discussion -- that is, if your measure of positive documentation demands their direct mention in a piece of writing. However, based on their language, style, melody characteristics, and other historical info, they can be reasonably dated. I am saying this even as a natural skeptic. So I do appreciate the line of thinking that "these chanteys may not really be as old as we tend to think," but lack of references until later does not account for why they would have characteristics of earlier eras of song.

So if, for example, the goal is to produce some proof in the form of a literary reference that "Clear the Track Let the Bulgine Run" was being sung at a date before 1853, then you won't have it. There is no smoking gun. But there are many other pieces of evidence you could present to the jury to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was around by the 1840s. Is this the sort of thing you are asking, i.e. about alternative ways to "prove" besides this straight "literary mention" sort of thing? " (01 Feb 10 - 11:42 AM)

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=1#2827309

While I am not really trying to "prove" anything, I am trying to take very seriously what both Lighter and Gibb are saying here. I want to recognize the clear limits placed upon us by historical documentation. And I also want to recognize the limits of "historical documentation" in the process of reconstructing what *could* have been the case within some reasonable parameters. I would prefer to think that I have one foot firmly planted in each place rather than that I am straddling the fence here. Sometimes I lean heavier on one foot than on the other. I agree with Lighter that one has to be careful about making later historical arguments based upon earlier "coulds". I hope that this is relatively clear.