BS: Beware our troops

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 02:14 PM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3776750618788792499&hl=en#

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 08:00 AM

" The reason you hear about the abuses in the Military is exactly that, they are abuses, They are illegal and they are punished when exposed."
Not true; the reason they are punished is when WE (the world at large) find out about them. Atrocities by 'our boys' are only dealt with when they are publicly exposed.
This still doesn't answer the continual use of chemical weapons against a civilian population and the illegal detention in inhuman conditions of suspects without them being tried.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 03:56 PM

Another thing I note is that we are told that our troops are willing to take a bullet to protect and defend our Constitution. But they're really not if they're not willing to take a bullet to defend the Constitution when it is under assault by our own government. The military people in the videos I posted say that the troops don't really fight and put their lives on the line for their fellow citizens or the citizens of other countries, or for any principles, like Democracy, free speech, or the US Constitution, but rather, they fight and put their lives on the line for their fellow military people. They say that that consideration supersedes all others. Which kind of makes them a nation unto themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:40 PM

Don T, did you happen to watch and/or listen to any of the videos I posted links to here in this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:39 PM

No excuses indeed, providing that your troops can be convinced that some gung-Ho 2nd Louie won't pull a .45 and air condition their brain box.

Are you suggesting that a 2nd Louie in a military base here in the States would pull a .45 on a troop for refusing to be shipped out in the case of an illegal order to invade another country?

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:37 PM

All of that aside, I agree with Olddude that we owe a debt of gratitude for the defensive operations of our troops, in our behalf, and when they are used aggressively, and offensively, we should remember that they act upon orders, not from choice.

With the exception of a few rotten apples, soldiers are a national asset, and until all nations share a common commitment to peace, a necessary one, unless you are unworried by the prospect of somebody else's army marching up your street and taking charge.

So why don't we all settle for trying to remove the real culprits, the politicos and power seekers who give the orders.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:27 PM

""So no excuses, then, for those who don't face a bullet to the head for refusing to comply, if they don't refuse to comply with the orders?""

No excuses indeed, providing that your troops can be convinced that some gung-Ho 2nd Louie won't pull a .45 and air condition their brain box.

That's the hurdle you have to overcome, and I'm not sure that any modern army could inspire that level of confidence among its troops.

It has to be said that the US army has, perhaps, a harder job in doing so than most, given the Ameican love affair with the gun.

They have arguably cornered the market in quick trigger Gung-Ho 2nd Louies.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 01:40 PM

So no excuses, then, for those who don't face a bullet to the head for refusing to comply, if they don't refuse to comply with the orders?

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM

The Nuremburg court seemed to believe that they did have a duty to refuse, Carol, and it is now enshrined in International Law.

In Germany 1933-1945, to obey that law was to commit suicide, and, for many who didn't obey, the outcome was the same.

It's easy for us to debate the academic point at a considerable remove from the realities of the situation, but I have to say that my own inbuilt instinct for survival would tend toward obeying the man with a 9mm Luger in his hand, and worrying about international courts at a later time.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM

"If they held a war and nobody came the Visigoths would come .."

No mg, you have not read my post.

I asked "What If they held a war and NOBODY came?"

No Visigoths, No Romans, No Celts; No Catholics, No Muslims, No Hindus; No Whites, no Blacks, no Browns; No Men, No Women, No Children.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 07:31 AM

In WWII, they George Patton with his push to rush through the battle field driving his soldiers like cattle . They called him old blood and guts. As one soldier said "our blood and his guts". That is why I could not tolerate George Bush in anyway.   He threw away lives on both side for what ... At least the first Gulf war had some justification Saddam was attacking Kuwait and putting Saudi Arabia at risk. Even so I am unsure all other steps were fully exhausted.
The whole world was behind stopping his expansion. The second gulf war was for what reason? None that I can justify ..

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 07:10 AM

Amergin
my friend, no one can go through battle without losing a part of themselves, that is why war is such a curse and why all leaders have to understand that any decision that leads to war causes much more damage then just the death and destruction. It is a curse to all involved and the suffering and pain goes on for the entire life of a soldier after which cannot be measured, no matter how strong one maybe.   It is an evil and unless all and I mean all means before hand have been exhausted, unless there is a clear and present danger it is an option that should not be used. They are heros to me for their service.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:09 AM

Sometimes the suicides start before the wars do.

My friend's young son, around 19 at the time, signed up to the army. Went to do his initial training in Plymouth, where he, and his new friends were all denied outside contact with their families for around 6 weeks. Two of the young lads took their own lives. Luke became so terrified and depressed by the brutal way he was treated that he felt the same way. It was the Chaplain who got him out in time. ALL the families of the lads and lasses who were in that training session were made to sign documents saying they'd not talk about it to the media...

????????

How many other times has that happened?   Terrible.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Amergin
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:18 AM

Olddude, I would never paint all soldiers with the same brush as wankers like this guy, or those involved with any horrific acts such as Abu Ghraib. My brother is currently on his second tour in Iraq, though this time he is stuck in a computer room behind the lines (and we are all happy, except for him) he does suffer from PTSD from his first tour. The things he saw there, will stick with him. People will deal with it in different ways, and unfortunately, even today there is little being done to help our boys and girls who serve.

Just by being who I am, just by being out there, walking around in public, sometimes talking with people at a bar, or on a walk through Portland, I have seen the effects the wars have brought unto our countrymen, the effects of bad policies brought about my money grubbing politicians and their corporate masters. Many are apparent, missing limbs, scars, burns, but most are not. Not until you take a closer look into their eyes, and see the psychological damage that will never truly heal.

A Restored Soldier?

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 01:10 AM

The reason I ask if you've watched or listened to the videos I posted links to, olddude, is because they are full of servicemen and women who are saying that killing civilians is not only not discouraged by the commanders, but that in many cases, it is actually encouraged. And it's not just a few bad apples who do it, it is the norm. And not only are those who do it not held accountable and punished, but their commanding officers make it very clear to them that if they do it, they will be protected and what they do will be covered up. And according to them, that is exactly what is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 12:54 AM

Amergin
and there are some bad people also. I agree with you, and there are some crazies who only get their kicks out of armed conflict ... for the most part, most honorable people ever in one place is those who serve. With the rare exceptions, they understand it and live it most do, and they pay the price for it also. Most police are that way also but you will find the bad also in any group. I wish more understood the concept of honor. It is lacking in most politicians today for most soldiers are too smart to throw away lives for causes that are not wise nor just. My opinion ...

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 12:47 AM

By the way, olddude, you didn't watch or listen to any of the videos I posted links, to, did you?

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 12:45 AM

Olddude, according to the US Constitution, the treaties we are a signatory to are the highest law of this land. And the international law that we are subject to is based on treaties and other agreements that we have signed, including the UN Charter. Our invasion and occupation of Iraq was a violation of the UN Charter and other treaties that we are bound by. So invading and occupying Iraq was not only a violation of international law, it was also a violation of the United States Constitution. So if our military people are duty bound to refuse to obey an illegal order, and if their first duty is to the US Constitution, then they were duty bound by international law and the US Constitution to refuse to participate in the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:30 PM

Carol they are duty bound to the constitution of the united States and the orders of the commander and Chief. They are bound by the laws of this nation and the constitution not the United Nations or any other foreign government. That is for the politicians to debate not the soldiers. No soldier is murdering anyone, they are engaged in an armed conflict and are trained to stay alive not to debate politics. That is for the politicians. But no soldier is targeting anyone that isn't trying to kill them. There are rules of engagement, murder will get you on death row. There is no soldier I know that would obey an order to shoot an unarmed civilian and they are duty bound to disobey any such order. Civilians do get killed, it happens in war any war, but civilians are not the target. Not by this military. Saddam, and other government well one only has to ask the Kurds. British soldiers are duty bound by their leaders also. Did they debate the legality of invading the Falkland islands? and I am sure civilians died in the conflict also sure they were not targeted. War is a curse to everyone, no one wants it, but it is one of the sure things in life unfortunately

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:12 PM

US Soldier Waterboards Daughter

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:35 PM

The winter soldiers are saying it's coming from the top down, olddude.

And if they are duty bound to not carry out illegal orders, then all of those who fought in Iraq were duty bound to refuse to fight there because that invasion and occupation were (are) illegal under international law.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:29 PM

The reason you hear about the abuses in the Military is exactly that, they are abuses, They are illegal and they are punished when exposed. Same as with the police or anyone else in any service profession. By the way soldiers are trained to NOT carry out illegal orders. The old defense that "I was only following orders gets you in prison. Everyone likes to point out, look at the Iraq prison abuse or look at the Vietnam village massacre, also look at the punishment that was handed out. No so in many other countries. We do have rules of engagement and they are specific. Abuse in war will occur, when it is exposed it is dealt with and no one I think does a better job of exposure as our country since there are embedded reporters along in most situations today. Like I said , easy to judge when you are sitting in a cozy house. Not so, when the air to metal ratio is very high and is flying at your head.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 08:21 PM

The UCMJ deals with illegal orders.

See this link.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 09:04 PM

As far as I'm concerned, Don T, your rebuttal hasn't met my criteria. Whether or not I spoke clearly enough, I assume and accept that sanctions will be needed. We don't read much about it, but before the Iraq invasion Iraq was fairly well constrained in its own space, with no-fly zones and monitoring. And yes, I have read Mein Kampf.

If or when an enabling country goes against legal sanctions, that country will find itself hamstrung as well.

Note that I am NOT postulating any such process for any time soon. I am simply saying that it will happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM

And that is precisely why Olddude is right. Soldiers will always be needed as long as there are acquisitive leaders, trying to annexe territory.

In the case of the current conflicts, the US is in the position of the power that is trying to annexe territory. Whose soldiers would be in the right if they were to fight against the US doing this?

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 07:53 PM

Did they have a duty to refuse?

And what duty do military people have if they are given orders that are illegal under international law and the consequences for refusal don't involve a bullet in the head?

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 06:10 PM

The answer to your question, Carol, is that they should have refused.

Given that a refusal meant a bullet in the head against the back wall of th building, I wonder how many of us would have had the necessary courage.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 06:06 PM

""People who reiterate that war with Hitler was inevitable, even necessary, are missing my point that by the time Hitler invaded Poland it was way, way too late.

Negotiation based on the ultimate wellbeing of issue-driven conflicts, stigma earned by those who transgress, and sanctions imposed by a united voice. Something like the situation that Iraq was in prior to the invasion.

And that's all I have to say about that.""

Read "Mein Kampf", and you will see that Hitler had already decided his stategy for domination of Europe, and beyond. It is evident both directly, and by inference, that he had no intention of accepting any diplomatic solution.

He clearly foresaw that he would be able, little by little, to annexe territory, and that he could do so safely, as long as he didn't grab anything large enough to make going to war worthwhile for the other side.

He knew, however that war was inevitable, and was only surprised that the trigger was Britain keeping faith with Poland.

WWII was inevitable from the point where the British failed to kill the rotten little bastard in WWI.

Diplomacy only works if both sides are prepared to a) Talk, and b) compromise. Hitler was using it solely as a delaing tactic, until he was ready for war.

And that is precisely why Olddude is right. Soldiers will always be needed as long as there are acquisitive leaders, trying to annexe territory.

And soldiers should not be blamed for what their leaders decide, but only for any crimes they may commit while serving their compatriots.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 05:37 PM

""Estimates regarding suicides amongst the vet population range from 50,000 to 150,000.""

Is that really the figure for the post Nam period, or, as is more likely, the figure for all US vets post WWII?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 07:08 PM

No answers for that question?


These guys have my deepest respect and gratitude...

http://www.ivaw.org/wintersoldier

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/205390-1


http://www.ivaw.org/

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6CNd2fxNUA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqfznE3BAvw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7RNbYObjwk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW31YlDlNm0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfpDOohpCCA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pqFX_Vx6Rs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkglAYl4KAs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xfsGT66Dbw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqamAzs-NR4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebp2Ks1aL14&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:03 PM

During WWII, what duty did the German soldiers have when they were given orders to do things that were subsequently determined to have been war crimes?

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 07:45 PM

"Since in some cases I gather the choice of IRA terrorists was either to be kneecapped by the IRA or join,"
Do you have any solid evidence for this Richard? It's always seemed more than a little incongruous to me that a clandestine organisation should fill its ranks with reluctant recruits who are quite likely to do a runner and grass them up at the earliest opportunity.
This was equally the case with organisations like the Nazis; why waste time, energy and manpower forcing people to join their ranks when German people were queuing to become members; very soon the reluctant 'volunteers' would outnumber those who 'forced' them to join - a dodgy position to be in, to say the least. I'm afraid I take stories of people being 'forced' to join such bodies with a large pinch of salt, be they pope or ordinary man-or-woman-in-the-street.
I sometimes think people took our propaganda machine far too seriously.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:40 PM

Whatever the number, it is inarguably too high. I hark back to my contention that the day will come when war in this world will be unacceptable.

People who reiterate that war with Hitler was inevitable, even necessary, are missing my point that by the time Hitler invaded Poland it was way, way too late.

Negotiation based on the ultimate wellbeing of issue-driven conflicts, stigma earned by those who transgress, and sanctions imposed by a united voice. Something like the situation that Iraq was in prior to the invasion.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:28 PM

"120 War Vets Commit Suicide Each Week

The military refuses to come clean, insisting the high rates are due to "personal problems," not experience in combat.

November 26, 2007

Earlier this year, using the clout that only major broadcast networks seem capable of mustering, CBS News contacted the governments of all 50 states requesting their official records of death by suicide going back 12 years. They heard back from 45 of the 50. From the mountains of gathered information, they sifted out the suicides of those Americans who had served in the armed forces. What they discovered is that in 2005 alone -- and remember, this is just in 45 states -- there were at least 6,256 veteran suicides, 120 every week for a year and an average of 17 every day.

The above is from

http://www.alternet.org/world/68713/


Ain't arguin' with you Eb. I thought the numbers seemed high. The ones I quoted earlier are from newspapers (various). The article above of course doesn't refer to Vietnam vets in particular.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:03 PM

Here is an interesting site:

History.com

"Myth: The media have reported that suicides among Vietnam veterans range from 50,000 to 100,000 - 6 to 11 times the non-Vietnam veteran population.

"Mortality studies show that 9,000 is a better estimate. "The CDC Vietnam Experience Study Mortality Assessment showed that during the first 5 years after discharge, deaths from suicide were 1.7 times more likely among Vietnam veterans than non-Vietnam veterans. After that initial post-service period, Vietnam veterans were no more likely to die from suicide than non-Vietnam veterans. In fact, after the 5-year post-service period, the rate of suicides is less in the Vietnam veterans' group." [Houk]"

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 08:11 PM

Hi Richard, the evidence we found in researching the Doherty case is that no one ever was coerced to join the IRA. Knee capping was a punishment for petty crimes in Republican controled areas. In point of fact, the IRA paid a reasonalble wage, and so, with high unemployment it was a job sought after by many. However, the IRA never put more than 300 volunteers in the field at one time, so as to manage the force fairly well, so it was a job that was hard to get.
War is never the answer, but after war, a truth and reconciliation process of some kind is needed.
Very best wishes, dear friend
Lorcan

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:26 PM

"1. The Vietnam War cost the United States 58,000 lives and 350,000 casualties. It also resulted in between one and two million Vietnamese deaths."


Estimates regarding suicides amongst the vet population range from 50,000 to 150,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:03 PM

Ebbie, I sent you some more imagination. I hope you enjoy it.

Rarely does a poll become so one sided that it ends up 99 to 1.
But when you ask people, "Will we ever live in a world with no war?"
almost everyone thinks not. Personally I know of no one who is not proundly touched by war. The degree and intensity of that "touch" goes to the end of the world and back again.

The legacy of war is to throw away young and old soldiers once they are used up. My mother saw it in WW 1 veterans. btw The only living and last American WW1 veteran is now a vibrant 112 years old.
I saw Korean vets and Viet Nam vets chewed up on all sides.

When we started our Iraq and Iran wars in the early 70's I knew that soldiers would not be glorified or supported by the DOD once they got home or once their job was done.

When my sister went in the Army she was hoping to get benefits like dental care but instead she was insidiously murdered by friendly fire by a military experiment with ionizing radiation. When my brother went in the navy he did not expect to end up in a mental institution. As a kid I saw war as an exciting fatal game but sone decided to not study war no more. I was the last survivor from my mother's womb and was reminded to not become cannon fodder more often than any other parental adage like "don't chew with your mouth open". I had seen Nazi films of the naked Jews being herded to their death before I was even 5 years old. Bottom line, no one is untouched by war, even if they never went there themselves.


For somthing so abhorrent as war, why do we not think we can ever be free of it?



As for this thread, I didn't see any intentional button pushing to deliberatly enrage anyone, but feelings and phrases run so deep regarding war, that no one can truely confront the reality disspassionatly.

The only people I know who are totally disspasionate when discussing war, are folks like Henry Kissinger or Pol Pot. And I think there is something seriously wrong with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 12:40 PM

"If my figures are correct, about 52,000 of our men died in Viet-Nam,combat related. 58,000 Nam vets died of suicide, after returning home."GfS

No, your figures are NOT correct. However, I expect it is a typo, although I can't imagine how a person would 'typo' to that extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 12:29 PM

While I am no friend of "the ugly American" and neither am I a friend of IRA terrorists, I think we might try to remember that most people here are not those cartoon characters. I forget it sometimes too.

However, since the tricks of the King's shilling are no longer with us, most mercenaries and most members of the regular military and indeed part-time military like the territorial army are there through choice, so there is likely to be an element of self-selection.

Since in some cases I gather the choice of IRA terrorists was either to be kneecapped by the IRA or join, there may be a lesser element of self-selection there.

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 05:04 AM

If my figures are correct, about 52,000 of our men died in Viet-Nam,combat related. 58,000 Nam vets died of suicide, after returning home.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 04:24 AM

"piss off"
I take it the wedding's off then?
"history shows what you and yours stood for"
And history has shown what you and yours stood for - night after night we watched your B52s raining napalm on civilians, and your torturing of prisoners is common knowledge; and you still refuse to comment on your country's war crimes - didn't expect you to really - too busy wrapping yourself in the flag.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:30 PM

Who pissed in your Geritol?

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 09:30 PM

inobu
good examples of how a person doesn't have to be in uniform to be brave and stand for something other than themselves. you make a very good point. unlike several on this thread who never stood for anything but themselves, let the other guy do it for them. some put their ass on the line for a higher cause some run their mouth at those who walk the walk and don't even live here. but this is a "yank" forum asshole remember that for once

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 09:04 PM

Jim C

Do you honestly think I give a rats ass what you think ..
history shows what you and yours stood for

piss off

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 08:32 PM

No, Freedom is NOT free, but it sure is not won by soldiers. It is won in spite of state terror. In the US, it was won by folks like Frank Little, who came back from WWI a pacifist. For his service, his speech against the war got him hanged under a railway trestle. It was won by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., writing from a Birmingham jail cell, it was won by Lord Richard Buckley, who gave his life for frees peach in my very home, in New York City, in my theater, where he died for the right to say what is on your mind on a New York Stage. It was won by Tom Fox in Iraq, by Bonheoffer in Germany, by the persistent gentle people who would not be silenced.
All the best
Lorcan

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:28 PM

"Between 1947 and the present, Canada has participated in almost 40 UN peacekeeping missions. More than 100,000 soldiers have served as peacekeepers."

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:27 PM

"the Visigoths would come and kill everyone in sight"
I'll bet the Visigoth generals were telling their men exactly the same thing about their enemies, and, judging by some of the correspondence on this thread, they would have been right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:32 PM

Hitler would have loved it in 1939 if nobody threw a war.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mg
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:22 PM

If they held a war and nobody came the Visigoths would come and kill everyone in sight. They would bayonette babies. They would rape 10 year old girls (no offense to the Visigoths..maybe they didn't do these things). They would throw dead bodies in the wells. They would destroy all livestock or take it. They would blow up any buildings in their way. They would turn people into their slaves.

Any more questions? mg