BS: At last a Pope talks some sense

Subject: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:41 AM

It's about time that an important bloke like the Pope spoke out about the stupid equality laws made by this labour government (???).

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:48 AM

You referring this THIS load of horseshit, Bozo?

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: GUEST,LTS on the sofa
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM

So it's natural for men to live separately and not have intimate contact with other humans or procreate then.... (or sex if you prefer the earthier version)

Makes me wonder if I shouldn't start stockpiling Celestial Brownie Points and prepare for the Apocolypse....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:31 AM

Absolutely, LTS - all this talk of The Natural Law sounds like Owd Ratty's carrying on his Hitler Youth indoctrinations into his dotage. Still, if Bozo supports this sort of stuff it makes sense of some of his other pronouncements in recent months. Ho hum...

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:38 AM

"...the effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs."

Don't worry, your popeness....no one can force you to be rational. However, they 'might' just have some input on who you impose irrationality on.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:51 AM

Oh stop trying to be provocative, Uncle Boko - just because they won't let you play the troll on the Beeb Messageboard, there's no need to come over here and do it. We know it's all an act.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:58 AM

Of course he is talking sonse. He is, after all, the voice of God on earth.

Now, where did I but that ironic smiley...

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:59 AM

...oh, and I'll tell Auntie Boko what you said. She'll probably make you scrub the kitchen floor again and clean behind the fridge.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Amergin
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 11:01 AM

What do you expect of a Nazi?

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 11:53 AM

Methinks he (and the other clowns) feel equality doesn't sit well with bigotry.

Nobody says you have to change your weird misogynist views, just don't say that somebody cannot apply for a job based on their lifestyle. Mind you, I have gay friends who are also church goers.   Now, I cannot comment on belief because I fail to understand the fascination with having an imaginary friend, but to attend a church when church leaders think you are inferior... That takes a sense of belief beyond my reckoning.

No, let him sit in his palace whilst his multitudes starve. I was sickened by what I saw in many latin American places where people are on the bread line whilst the church in the middle of town is ornate, wonderful and the priest well fed.

he isn't in a position to preach to anybody, least of all a secular society. Anyway, Henry VIII declared the Pope cannot interfere with British law and that is fine by me!

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 12:30 PM

Kind of ironic for the Pope to complain about a law that forces the Catholic Church to employ gay people, and to call it a violation of natural law. Seems like that horse has left the barn already.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 12:51 PM

Any English lawyers on the Mudcat? Is the Statute of Praemunire still on the books? This, I think, dates back to Richard II and was used by Henry VIII (of course) to some effect! It appears to state that it is a criminal offence to obey a foreign power or government above that of England. The Pope is not only the head of the Catholic Church but the representative of such a power, the Vatican. So arrest all those bishops etc and try them for treason.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 01:34 PM

OK, equality - an aquaintance of mine used to work for the police on the admin side. A woman was employed as an audio typist - must have equality - just one snag - she was deaf - must have equality - and therefore useless in the job which requires listening to a voice through headphones - must have equality!!!

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Smokey.
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 01:51 PM

Crikey Bonzo - the Pope must be right, then..

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 07:30 PM

Ah well. It's nice to have proof that Brown is doing something right.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 07:39 PM

Well.....I think this is one discussion I'll stay out of.
I liked it better when the Catholic Church had an unofficial "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy on homosexuality. The churches just aren't ready to deal with the issue of homosexuality rationally - so I think it's better right now if they don't say anything until society sorts itself out. Still, I'm not sure I like government telling churches who they can and cannot employ.

-Joe Catholic-

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 08:06 PM

I usually make it a point not to agree with the Pope, but on this point I agree absolutely.

No government has any business dictating to a Church who may or may not be ordained to their priesthood or ministry, rabbinate, etc. An official of any institution should be expected to share that institution's values and beliefes, surely.

Now, in the case of an individual gay guy who wants to be a priest, I'd ask him why in hell he would want to burrow inside an institution that condemns his very nature? And then I would advise him to look into the Episcopal Church of the US.

I suppose I can try to understand why someone born and raised within a particular religious tradition would want to "stay home" within said church, but at some point you need to recognize that while you may have changed, the church is not changing ~ or if so, not much and not quickly at all.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:09 AM

I am going to assume PoppaGator and Joe Offer are intelligent people and are not purposefully misrepresenting the new law.

This is not about ordaining as priests. Anybody can tell that such a calling does need some form of belief in what you are doing. After all, the pay is a stip' rather than a salary to acknowledge it is as much public office as employment.

This is about employment. To say you don't like being told who you can and can't employ is missing the point somewhat. it is not about who you can't employ as much as ensuring you do not refuse to employ somebody who is capable and willing regarding the job in hand but has a feature about them that is nothing to do with the job, but goes against your prejudice.

If a cleaner / accountant / lawyer / electrician / architect / office worker / whatever happens to be gay or a woman, that has no bearing on their ability to perform the task. The churches want to opt out of this. Why?

Suppose I decide I won't shortlist anybody with a beard or wears sandals and ask the government to give me a clause to do so. What is the ruddy difference.

(I do have a beard by the way. But there again, sadly, we are finding some catholic priests are neither celibate, heterosexual or indeed law abiding.....)

Anyway, this Pope isn't one to talk about equality. He sits in his palace whilst catholics starve, and as far as discrimination is concerned, I am sure he learned a lot during his membership of a youth organisation many years ago.....

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:59 AM

"What do you expect of a Nazi? "

Are referring to Bonzo/Boko there, or to the pope?

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: eddie1
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:06 PM

I always liked Billy Connolly's line to the effect that he had read that the Roman Catholic Church didn't mind homosexuals as long as they weren't practising. "Funny", he said, "that's just the way I feel about Roman Catholics!"

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM

From an article in todays Times, written by Lord Johnathan Sachs, Chief Rabbi of UHCC.

The preface to his article sums up my stance on the issues we have been discussing.

"The Pope is right about the threat to freedom
We may not agree with the Vatican line on homosexuality. But the State is trampling on our rights as individuals.
There are times when human rights become human wrongs. This happens when rights become more than a defence of human dignity, which is their proper sphere, and become instead a political ideology, relentlessly trampling down everything in their path. This is happening increasingly in Britain, and it is why the Pope's protest against the Equality Bill, whether we agree with it or not, should be taken seriously."
article

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:18 PM

Perhaps the meaning of the term "liberal fascists", which has puzzled so many for so long, has become a little more apparent?

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:47 PM

I don't see any threat to freedom in anti-discrimination laws. No-one is being told who they can and cannot employ. The RC church already employs more homosexuals than their fair share, or so it would appear, and defies the law regularly to obscene lengths by aiding and abetting the revolting crimes of many of its members regardless of sexual preference. His protest is no more than a sick, attention seeking PR exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM

I think the above post by Smokey, is exactly what the Rabbi was alluding to.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:12 PM

Just to make it even more clear for Joe and PoppaGator (I accept that Bonzo is beyond reason) the UK is not dictating to any organisation who it may and may not employ. It is outlawing discrimination. Some people here might not appreciate the distinction but the courts will understand.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:28 PM

As long as they are taxed the same as any other business they should obey the same laws as any other business.

Stipends, cars, property etc. should be taxed too. If they make charitable donations they should get a tax credit like any other business.

Those who give, get a break. If the church gives they get a break too.

Anything more than these charitable tax exemptions, such as property tax free, etc. is obscene, perverse and absurd.

Who do they think they are?

AIG?

I guess they do offer a kind of insurance policy that can never be proven if the church paid out or not.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:33 PM

Maybe Parliment should pass a pedophilia tax just for the church since they are still allowed to get away with it.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:44 PM

I think they are exempt from tax as long as they don't engage in political activity.. Hmm..

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:00 PM

From the article cited in the second post, I couldn't get a clear understanding of the proposed legislation, or of the Pope's position.

The issue has come up in the United States, and generally religious organizations have been granted a exemption from anti-discrimination laws when hiring employees who have a religious function. If a church teaches that homosexuality is wrong, then I suppose perhaps it shouldn't be compelled to hire a homosexual religion teacher. I'd think that a large Catholic hospital should be compelled to employ anyone who is qualified for most positions, but should a Catholic hospital be allowed to refuse to hire a doctor who performs abortions, if those abortions are performed at another location? What about hiring a church secretary/receptionist who is not a member of the congregation?

It's not an easy question to answer, because "faith-based" organizations depend on having a staff that has a shared religious experience. I volunteer at a nonsectarian women's center that is run by two Catholic nuns. We generally do not employ religious fundamentalists (particularly not Catholic fundamentalists), because they would not approve of some of the things we do to help our clients.

"My" nuns belong to a religious order that operated a Catholic high school in Sacramento until the school closed last year. The school hired a drama coach who had done volunteer work at a clinic run by Planned Parenthood, and that clinic performs abortions. One family in the school raised a stink, and the bishop of Sacramento ordered the school to terminate the drama coach. The nuns did so, reluctantly, giving the coach severance pay to cover the six months remaining in the school year (they billed the bishop for the severance pay, but I don't think he paid). Later, the nuns expelled the family that had raised such a stink in this and other matters over a number of years.

What's happening in the Catholic Church is that an organized movement of conservative lay people, is forcing the Church's hand on a number of issues, and the bishops end up enforcing the letter of the law - even when it violates our principles of compassion. That's what has happened to our "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Of course, the "don't ask, don't tell" practice had the (probably unintended) side effect of protecting priests who were suspected of child molestation. The child molestation scandal has forced bishops to enforce the rules far more strictly, and the conservatives have taken advantage of this change to further their agenda.

Our diocese had a priest who is a brilliant man with a dynamic personality, a gifted musician. He worked in the bishop's office as director of liturgy for the diocese, and he lived with his (male) lover. We had a progressive bishop who ignored the priests living situation; but then we got a new, conservative bishop. The new bishop ordered the priest to break off his relationship, and the priest refused and left the priesthood. Now the former priest is working as a lay employee in a parish as music director. He was replaced in the diocesan job by a layman who was so-so; and now that guy has been replaced by a lay woman whom I like very much - but we went for about five years without a good liturgy director for the diocese, and that was a problem.

So, it's messy.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:32 PM

Look, it's very simple. Should vile bigots be entitled to refuse to hire people who can do the job, because of the bigotry?

What will come next? Protection from prosecution from enforced clitorectomies because of a religious belief in such mutilation?

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:38 PM

Well, ya know, Richard, that's a little strong...

Taboos against homosexuality have existed in many (perhaps most) cultures forever. Those taboos are dropping away, but I think it's a little strong to put the label of "vile bigotry" on those who have not yet relinquished the taboos.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:45 PM

Why do conservatives reject compassion? Is it Intolerence that is the leading doctine? Should the church follow or lead conservative intolerence?

Maybe the church should support conservatives on every issue across the board by merely bringing back blasphemy laws and traditional punishments and/or enforcments.
That way all the blasphemers, demons, heretics and unbelievers will be cast out and eliminated, leaving a heaven on Earth for the faithful to fight Satan and his army.
Putting the question upon people today however should not be called an inquisition. The test of faith can be called somthing a bit brighter such as "a quiz of faith".

Currently there are about 6 Goverment agencies that you can use to make annonymous accusations that require no substantiation that will cost the accused thousands of dollars to defend against and an inordinate amount of time denying. Punishing the unbeliever in the wallet makes conservatives smile.

But punishing these tolerant compassionate heretics who disobey some segment or all of the conservative dogma, could go far beyond the wallet. Perhaps it should include torture or even advance to the point that the Shia and Sunnis now use to prove the superiority of God's word. Bomb the HELL out of each other.

Tongue and cheek my ass. It is always the conservatives who are first to throw the rehetorical bombs like Glen Beck or Rev Dobson and say things like "THEY are leading you to be exterminated! You must arm yourself and strike them down first!"

I have noticed that Roman Catholics I encounter today are much more likely to seek vengence than the understanding I expected in the past from Jesuits. And even they weren't all that damn understanding..

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:55 PM

"Taboos against homosexuality have existed in many (perhaps most) cultures forever"

No they haven't. Intolerance of homosexuality is an invention of the church.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:06 PM

I have a dream that someday somebody can bring up a religious leader such as the Pope, and not have the thread rapidly devolve into a hatefest about how horrible all religion is.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM

Hmmm....there's hope for you yet mousey.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:12 PM

Coming from you, Ake, that really...

scares me.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:15 PM

and not just against religion, but against any alternative view to the "liberal" orthodoxy.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:17 PM

"Puir wee cowrin' timerous beastie"   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:24 PM

Is liberal fundamentalist a contradiction in terms?

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM

Joe, the Greeks celebrated homosexuality and heterosexuality alike. On what exactly are you basing your touching belief that homosexuality has been taboo in most cultures forever? (I can see that if your belief were well founded it would give you the feeble defencce that "we are not the only bigots.")

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:52 PM

"the Greeks celebrated homosexuality and heterosexuality alike

So did the Romans. There is more than ample evidence of that in the Vatican library, which houses the word's largest collection of written pornography. Unfortunately it's all in Latin, and the wee devil sitting on my shoulder whispering in my ear says that the pages are probably all stuck together as well, but being a gentleman I would never say such a thing. I apologise unreservedly for his bad taste.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 08:04 PM

I remember learning somewhere that the Romans viewed the Greeks with distaste for the homosexuality thing. "The Greek Vice" they called it. I don't remember (augh!) where I read this. But I'm not sure the blanket approbation of homosexuality was as universal as has been here averred.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 08:36 PM

I wouldn't call it approbation - just absence of taboo.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:26 PM

Plato also speaks of "barbarians" looking askance on homosexuality (which he of course rhapsodizes at length). So there must have been some lands known to him which weren't so sanguine.

I'm not trying to make any "this is wrong / this is right" arguments, just show that "everybody in the world liked homosexuality until the Christians came along" kind of bullshit is overstated. Although there are people who have a vested interest in believing that all the world's ills come from Christianity. Nothing you say will convince them otherwise.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:48 PM

It's overstated now; no-one said that. The present day western taboo, or what's left of it, comes from the church.

Incidentally, the Vatican porn collection appears to be a myth. I apologise for that. The material certainly exists though. There isn't much that the Romans didn't get up to.

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:08 PM

For the sake of balance, it should be noted that the Christian movement did in fact introduce some much needed moral standards into Roman society. The rest is history..

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:35 PM

Well, the examples of Greece and Rome were brought up to counter this statement of mine: Taboos against homosexuality have existed in many (perhaps most) cultures forever.

Much of what is now considered acceptable in the culture of Europe and (to an extent) North America, is unacceptable in African and Arab cultures - which were not significantly influenced by Christian churches until recently. So, it seems unfair to say that opposition to homosexuality is primarily or exclusively a Christian taboo. As to the origins of the taboos of Europe and America, were they from the churches, or were they indigenous taboos that were assumed by the churches?

The fact of the matter is that many, many ethnic groups have had longstanding taboos against homosexuality. I happen to agree with the need to do away with those taboos, but I question the wisdom of condemning those who still hold to their cultural upbringing. To what extent is it ethical for us to impose our "enlightened" modern thinking on others who hold onto cultural practices that have existed for centuries, or even millennia?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: 3refs
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:39 PM

Let's remember that some rather important people from some other religious institutions didn't necessarily outright disagree with him. I'm pretty sure that in Texas, they refer to it as "The Ole Texas Two Step"!
I think another institution that's watching this closely may be the Masons. "No atheist can become a member of a Freemasonry Lodge. Masons do not care what your individual faith is ­ that is a question between you and your God - but we do require that a man believe in a Supreme Being". What do they do about this one?
It just about sums me up with two words; Dignity and Respect! Everyone deserves nothing less until they've done something that goes against or offends my own unique set of morals, values and spirituality. I'd suggest that not many people share identical beliefs with me or with anyone else on the planet.
I don't think I'm a bigot or racist at heart, but I admit I've told all the jokes and said the worst words one can say about another. Sometimes I feel guilty, and other times I feel justified because of something they have done or said. That aside, I'm a "Male Chauvanist Pig-First Class"!

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:49 PM

Let's remember that some rather important people from some other religious institutions didn't necessarily outright disagree with him. I'm pretty sure that in Texas, they refer to it as "The Ole Texas Two Step"!

I always thought that meant diarrhea!

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: At last a Pope talks some sense
From: 3refs
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:50 PM

That too!