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Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle
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Subject: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 10 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM Hindu wins Northumberland funeral pyre battle ... and why not? What struck me about this battle to stop the gentleman having a 'traditional funeral' for his religion: what really struck home over the "environmental standards" issues: was/is this... When we had foot and mouth in this country the funeral pyres of millions of animals burned long hard, some for days and nights, smouldering away with whatever health hazard may have been caused to the public. Many concerns were issued back then over the pyres. As far as I know the pyres did not need planning permissions and most were open to the public's gaze. Each year we allow tons of fireworks to be let off into the atmosphere. And we won't even get into other emissions for this discussion. Mercury levels from our owm crematoria are worring but have been/are being addressed now. etc, etc. I have no idea how many Hindu folk live in the UK but I suspect there are not a great many and IF - a big if - they all wanted a traditional funeral would it come to anywhere near the level of dangers we already throw into our atmosphere each year? In short I saw double standards. I am not aware of ALL the facts, as some would be on this case, but I think he should be allowed his funeral and his will, along with others, if he so wishes. Putting the public health argument and planning permission laws in his way either makes it wrong for him or wrong for all those animal pyres and the fireworks each year. Can anyone throw any legal right on this and why it is deemed different for animal disposal compared to human? Of course we should have it in an enclosed area - not least for the dignity of the human and their family - but we did not say the same for the animal pyres. I'm curious more than anything as to why a gentleman wanting a tradition funeral should cause the law such a total stressing. Thankfully, in the end, the law has come good for him Is there really any harm in this? mp |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: Simon G Date: 10 Feb 10 - 12:43 PM Common sense prevailed, but why did it have to go the the High Court to find some common sense. The judge was very angry that the solution hadn't been accepted by the local authority 4 years ago. Governmental organisations are not very adept at common sense and over-staffed government organisations are worse. To reduce the impact of inept meddling by officialdom in our activities simply reduce the staff and they won't have time to meddle and common sense will prevail. Fundamentally we are too wealthy in the West and are spending our ill gotten gains on tripping ourselves up with unnecessary regulation and officialdom. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Feb 10 - 01:01 PM I can't see what it's got to do with anyon else how we dispose of our remains. And in any case, I'd see a proper funeral pyre as much more acceptable than using an oven the way it's normally done. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 10 Feb 10 - 01:10 PM I think the only thing I can think of where umm 'air quality' might be an issue, is the smell of roasting/burning human flesh and fat saturated smoke for neighbours - I don't dig the smell of BBQ's at the best of times! |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Feb 10 - 01:38 PM Now banning barbecues might indeed make sense. I'd be against funeral pyres in back gardens as well. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish Date: 10 Feb 10 - 02:07 PM It's all a little morbid for me. I'm not going. I've decided I like it here. ;0) But..if I HAVE to go, then I'd like daffodils to grow on my grave... St. Just in Roseland has quite the most beautiful churchyard you could ever imagine... And two of my dogs are buried high on a hill above Penzance, on a farm..It's a special animal cemetery and the lady started it when her horse died. He was the love of her life, on a par with her husband, so she told us, with a smile. He'd lived to a grand old age, the horse..and when he died she buried him in a field, planting an apple tree on his grave. Pretty soon, she had a whole darn orchard! And each tree marked the resting place of a beloved horse companion. Next came a field for the dogs, one for the cats, the guinea pigs etc... And now, she has a field for their owners too...an environmentally friendly burial field... She's planning on being buried next to her horse.... Everywhere you go there are roses, trees, bushes..and so much love. The first thing she does, when you arrive is take you round her farm animals...showing you life, rather than death..and you get to meet Noah, her award winning bull, who loves to have his nose tickled! :0) She gives him a shampoo regularly and he's won soooooo many prizes around the country...he's golden coloured and very handsome! This is where my dogs are.. Penwith Woodland Burial - Cornwall My other dear dog, is buried near Kingsbridge...under a circle of tall trees, surrounded by other much loved animals...and the only sound you can hear is the wind gently rustling the leaves..and the cows mooing in the surrounding fields. So peaceful... Meadow Wood Pet Cemetery I love wandering through churchyards, looking at names, matching everyone up, imagining their lives...their faces, their homes, their families..seeing them in their clothes, according to whatever period they lived in...My imagination brings them all alive again.. :0) I don't like crematoriums, find them horrible places...Yuk! |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 10 Feb 10 - 02:19 PM Mr Ghai and the AAFS actually cremated the remains of a young Sikh man in Northumberland in 2006, here without all the conditions that he has now agreed to. One of the arguments against this was that some members of the public witnessing anything like this by chance may find it distressing. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: bubblyrat Date: 10 Feb 10 - 02:43 PM Well,not distressing ,maybe,but certainly a bit disquieting ?? I mean, why SHOULD we allow every Tom,Dick,and Hare,from every religion on the planet,to come to our country and insist on the right to indulge in their traditions and customs without let or hindrance,without even bothering to ask the indigenous populace for their views on the subject ?? As it happens,I don't particularly have any issues with Hindu or whatever cremations,etc.---they have been chucking peoples' ashes off Reading Bridge for ages now ( for Ganges, read Thames !),and in fact,I have asked Karen to do something similar for me,involving Henley bridge ! But it would be nice to be ASKED or CONSULTED ----I gather the Sikhs have suggested that their children should (MUST ??) be allowed to wear curved daggers to school !! NO WAY !! Unless Christian kids can too, of course---it's called "democracy" ! |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: SINSULL Date: 10 Feb 10 - 02:49 PM I have visions of a local Tibetan having his body exposed in a London park for the birds to carry off piecemeal. An extreme, I know. Babbling. Sorry. But when I was in Tibet, an American tourist died - an older lady. Her family was given the option of a cremation in China or exposure on a mountain in Tibet. They chose cremation. I hope my family would have known I would prefer exposure. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 10 Feb 10 - 02:54 PM Some interesting comments and posts Simon's ideas certainly spell out that sometimes rules way outstrip any common sense. I confess, Lizzie, that the romanticism of a peaceful graveyard can often be quite touching. The walking through, the history, the abundant wild flora and fauna, the smell of the flowers and sound of insects. A place of memory, love and peaceful reflection. I can go for that. However, I have been to burials in the rain and watched torrents of water falling into a grave while a Mother shouted and pleaded that no-one "put her boy down there". Of course, they did. And the thoughts of a loved one rotting and putrifying is not too pleasant if one's mind wanders below the surface of an idyllic place. So I think plus and minus for burial. Certainly, I agree, a graveyard can be a beautiful place if you can keep your mind above the surface. But cremated remains of loved ones can lie in a peaceful garden of rememberance too. You can spread ashes on a sea, or a place they loved to be where you could not be allowed to bury them. Again: plusses and minuses. It has be a thing of choice in the end and that choice be respected. And I respect eajay's point about distressing passers by BUT the gentleman in question certainly is not looking to distress anyone. Funeral's can be quite distressing in themselves and I suppose no-one wants to upset any innocent byestanders who happen by. Rightly so. Personally I can find distressed feelings from switching on the news and seeing some of the images displayed there. I certainly hate to see people distressed. I also wonder, going back to Simon's post, how much too is death and our hatred/fear/concerns etc for it worse in the 'western world'? Other cultures seem to embrace it better and deal with it with lots more spirituality and enlightened attitude. One thing is for sure... we will all face it some time in our life! Boito, one of Verdi's lyricists wrote this upon his death... "My dear friend, in the course of my life I have lost those I have idolized, and grief has outlasted resignation. But never have I experienced such a feeling of hatred against death, of contempt for that mysterious, blind, stupid, triumphant and craven power." Power indeed. The way we dispose of our dead - those we love and have loved - maybe shows an angle of humanity that is seldom explored but is very much required. That we care how we go and how we are disposed of, remembered, and thought of in death as in life, says a lot I think. Add spirituality in there and there is always that hope to have that craven power overturned :-) mp |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: pdq Date: 10 Feb 10 - 03:04 PM All laws must be applied to all people living in a country. They must be applied equally, without regard to religion, race or country of origin. To do otherwise is unconstitutional in the U.S. and is wrong even if not specified by such a document in another country. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Feb 10 - 03:05 PM I'm afraid we haven't got the right birds here for a Tibetan sky funeral. Pigeons couldn't hack it. I think the sight of a oven-syle crem with smoke pouring out of the chimney is a lot more disquieting than a funeral pyre would be. It's not exactly a foreign tradition in Europe, just one that's been out of fashion for a long time. How about a Viking style send off with a burning boat? |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 10 Feb 10 - 03:08 PM Whilst I myself amd happy this gentleman got his result, I am not invoking religious argument for it. Each to their own. What I am saying is that some of the arguments seemingly used against him do not stand up to fair scrutiny. In short I am asking if human pyres can be anywhere as near as damaging as animal pyres and why is one okay and the other not? I mention the number of Hindu folk simply as a measure against how many animals were so burnt. I suspect that we could have a graet many decades of Hindu funerals before getting close to one foot and mouth outbreak. Why are the same regulations not in place or which laws differ sufficiently that one is okay and the other not? It is more a philosophical legal debate than a religious one. That is where my curiosity lies in this though secondarily I will admit I see no harm in allowing it on religious grounds. But the latter is my own opinion and I respect others differ. This is not a religious argument but one of seemingly double standards when disposing of animal remains by fire basically Hope that explains my basic premise mp |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: GUEST,Lizzie Route Date: 10 Feb 10 - 03:09 PM Lovely post, mp... We have lost the precious gift of being able to accept death...and of treating our remaining bodies with respect and spirituality. It saddens me a great deal.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: Rowan Date: 10 Feb 10 - 05:00 PM All laws must be applied to all people living in a country. They must be applied equally, without regard to religion, race or country of origin. To invoke 'constitutionality' or democracy in such a discussion requires an understanding of who is who in the zoo and their origins. Where colonial invasion has been relatively recent (Oz, N & S America, Africa come to mind) the indigenous inhabitants weren't really consulted about the validity of their conventions; most of them were marginalised and repressed instead. Where the colonial invasion was less recent (the UK comes to mind) it seems a bit churlish for the later invaders and their descendants to both ignore their predecessors and repress later arrivals with notions of "laws". It could even be described as merely a brutal exercise of power "because we could." Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: Rasener Date: 10 Feb 10 - 05:11 PM Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. I have written in my will, that I want to be burnt on a fire in my own garden and when the its all over, I want my ashes, to be buried under a tree that will be planted by my wife in the front garden. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: SINSULL Date: 11 Feb 10 - 10:49 AM I am to be cremated and spread on the sidewalks in the first snowfall following my death. Always like to be useful. SINS |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: mousethief Date: 11 Feb 10 - 01:58 PM Where colonial invasion has been relatively recent (Oz, N & S America, Africa come to mind) Define "relatively recent" -- in terms of glaciers 500 years isn't a long time but in terms of colonialism it seems pretty long. O..O =o= |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: open mike Date: 11 Feb 10 - 02:14 PM the title "battle" evokes images of a contest such as who can build the biggest pyre... reminds me of the fires on the levee in louisiana...a december tradition |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: vectis Date: 11 Feb 10 - 06:56 PM Down here in Sussex we havea monument to hindu soldiers called the Chattri. They used to cremated them up there on the top of the downs. Why did he need to go to Northumberland? Couldn't the Chattri just be put back into use? |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Feb 10 - 01:08 AM Why Northumberland? Well, he lives in Newcastle. ....................... I would imagine that this ruling would, quite rightly, open the way for non-Hindus to have similar arrangements for disposing of their bodies. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 12 Feb 10 - 04:40 AM No doubt bureaucracy would finally win because, by the time you have paid for all the forms to be signed and be looked over, the cost of such funerals will be higher than the present ways now (cremation and burial). Costs of 'conventional funerals' are quite high, even for the most basic, once everyone else who plays a part in it has had their cut. That said, maybe for a Hindu, the costs are cheaper than being repariated to a country you can have a pyre and, to be buried in one's own country must be a basic right surely? I know there was a intimation, that somehow went missing, much earlier about basically when foreign people are in a given country they should have to abide by our laws like we do theirs when abroad. But what is often missed is that someone who may appear to be from abroad may not be foreign in any way. THIS, the UK, IS their country. Certainly I think an open discussion about burials/cremations and a review of methods and ideas would be time well spent. My basic premise of using environmental considerations against such pyres stands though. If you can do one, why not the other? mp |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:19 AM Hardly a new phenomenon, in South Wales this happened over a century ago. For details see the Wikipaedia information on Dr Price from whom our own member takes his nom de plume, and who is commemorated as patron of Llantrisant Folk Club Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: Bat Goddess Date: 12 Feb 10 - 08:34 AM I've always like the concept of a Viking funeral...although my personal preference is for slow oxidation in the treetops. I spend a LOT of time in old New England cemeteries and I plan to cut my own slate marker at some point. But I won't be there -- I'd like my ashes to be scattered over the North Atlantic. Linn |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: Dave the Gnome Date: 12 Feb 10 - 09:24 AM Maybe we could take a leaf out of this John Prine song:-) Please don't bury me Down in that cold cold ground No, I'd druther have "em" cut me up And pass me all around Throw my brain in a hurricane And the blind can have my eyes And the deaf can take both of my ears If they don't mind the size DeG |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: Jeri Date: 12 Feb 10 - 09:39 AM Linn, metal oxidizes. People drip. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: frogprince Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:04 AM One thing that did occur to me: Wouldn't a funeral pyre leave a lot more charred bone intact compared to high-temperature oven cremation? My understanding has been that in India those remains would typically go into the Ganges. While a few sterilized bones in a U.K. or American river probably would do no one any real harm, it would be a consideration; what will be done with any remains in the instance under discussion? Personally, I've said for years that I like the thought of being burned openly on some little hill, where I would largely be carried off on the breeze. I would expect some bone to remain, and my concept would include a "post hole" nicely below the frost line, at the base of a tree, for that. My more realistic intention is "regular" cremation, and scattering with no formalities in one of a couple of favorite places, just depending on what is realistic for my wife by the time leave the cadaver behind. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: frogprince Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:16 AM ...by the time I leave the cadaver behind. I'm also torn, as to ideal plan, between the funeral pyre and simply asking that the body be dropped off deep in the woods, where smell and stages of decomposition aren't apt to ruin anyone's day while a few assorted critters enjoy the treat. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: Amergin Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:24 AM I know I've said this before but I always liked the idea of getting stuffed.... |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:27 AM The bony remains could easily be collected up and put in a small crusher for that purpose, I imagine, as I think is done with normal cremation for anything left behind, before giving the ashes to the relatives. Ultimately such a pyre must reach the right temperatures or else other countries would have a major problem with remains being left behind and the people who make these pyres know what they are doing. As for bony remains and waterways or even the land... we are biodegradable and the land and water, coupled with many organisms, quickly dispose of most of it. Yes, there is always the chance some bone fragments could get left but surely 'mother Earth' has dealt with plant and animal remains since organisms first inhabited the planet? It certainly does so in burial grounds/cemetries. The idea of my initial remains being wafted up into the air and going global is not an unpleasant one to me either. My ashes can be spread where my family know is best and where they too can find some comfort hopefully. So many of us seem to have the need to visit some remains in order to truly have a place to remember the person who has died. Quite what form those remains take varies so much across the globe. The remains I try to focus on is their spirit... for which I have a feeling but no definition of what form it possibly could take. A single memory can be a remains I guess mp |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: MarkS Date: 12 Feb 10 - 04:05 PM Wonder if the courts will go along if the Hindu gentleman wants to do a Suttee along with the services? Why not. We should not be culturally judgemental. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Feb 10 - 08:24 PM It's a bit like having a law saying you have to use a knife and fork when you eat. What's it got to do with the government anyway? Here's a painting of Shelley's funeral pyre. Can't get more English than that. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: mousethief Date: 13 Feb 10 - 12:19 AM What's it got to do with the government anyway? Public sanitation, for one thing. O..O =o= |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: Royston Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:52 AM MarkS - are you one of those BNP clones again? Sati is unlawful in India, because suicide, or assisting it, is illegal and if the widow is forced then she is murdered and that is illegal. Are you surprised by that? We have the same laws here. MT is right to raise the issue of sanitation and of general good order. So the only question to be resolved is that of how to facilitate this man's reasonable request. Not to find silly reasons to prevent it. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Feb 10 - 04:25 PM Can an already-dead Hindu win a legal battle? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: MGM·Lion Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:34 PM He is not dead yet, he is anticipating and planning for the future as his health is not good. |
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Subject: RE: Hindu wins UK funeral pyre battle From: Nigel Parsons Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:32 AM Can an already-dead Hindu win a legal battle? He is not dead yet, Okay, he'd an un-dead Hindu. Is he allowed to drink blood? |
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