50 Year Rule - traditional rooms at Folk Alliance

Subject: 50 Year Rule
From: RTim
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:39 AM

I have just read on the Ballad-L list that Andy Cohen, for the 2 Traditional Rooms he is running at the Folk Alliance conference this year, has introduced the -50 Year Rule.
That is, anything sung within HAS to be at least 50 years old.
Now that is a topic for conversation!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: s&r
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 11:08 AM

Livin doll, Jailhouse rock, Freight train, three little fishes, grandfather's clock etc....


Stu

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 11:24 AM

Works for me.

Smoke Gets In Your Eyes, Teenager in Love, Rock Around the Clock, Tequila, Stay

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 11:34 AM

HEY! Works for me!....All of Buddy Holly's stuff qualifies!!!

But then there are the REAL folk songs that people have sung for years like "Purple People Eater" and "How Much Is That Doggie in the Window?"

Can we all agree the 50 Rule is some real dumbass shit?


Spaw

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM

Enforcing a 50 year rule to keep things "traditional" is just about meaningless. Moving it right back to 90 years or a century might at least be defensible in that you would be focusing on material that took root and survived without the benefit of broadcast media.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: IanC
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM

Even that's cobblers ... the first million seller (as far as I know) was "The Murder of Maria Narten" published by Jemmy catnach of 7 Dials in 1828. He was just using the Broadcast Media of the time ...

:-)

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: IanC
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 12:09 PM

Marten

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: Bert
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 12:57 PM

the 2 Traditional Rooms he is running... I guess if he is running them he can run them how he pleases.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:19 PM

Nobody can run anything"how he pleases"--that's a malicious myth that's been circulated by people who've never had to run anything. Andy has all my sympathy, because it looks like people are already determined to turn his idea on it's ear.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:28 PM

Yes, MTed ~ but that is because it is a misguided idea. To you young people, 50 years sounds like 4-fucking-ever. Believe me, to the ~ ah ~ mature, it is no time at all. It's more than 50 years since the advent of rock'n'roll, remember. Is he going to admit all those 20s-30s-40s standards. He thinks Cole Porter "Traditional" does he? Jimmy Kennedy? Johnny Mercer? Oh, come on...

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:08 PM

Check out Andy's Videos, before you jump to any conclusions about how "misguided" he is--As to Jimmy Kennedy, Cole Porter, or Johnny Mercer tunes, and those 20s-30s-40s standards, well, hot jazz is traditional music too.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:31 PM

Reinterpretation of current/past popular music in traditional style, within the limitation of traditional/acoustic (and perhaps solo) instrumental constraints, is a definite part of the "songster" tradition:

Examples:

Mississippi John Hurt's "Creole Belle" (and undoubtedly several others currently slipping my mind);

Dave Van Ronk's "Would You Like to Swing on a Star," "Teddy Bears Picnic," etc.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: gnu
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:34 PM

I am remiss... 50 years AFTER the death of the author?

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:38 PM

The Ozark Folk Center in Mountain View, Arkansas, has a similar rule, although they use a different cutoff date. I think it may be 1940 or thereabouts.

Of course that doesn't guarantee that everything before that date is "traditional" but that's not necessarily the intent.

Can you imagine trying to enforce a rule that everything had to be "traditional"? That would just lead you into endless arguments about what is "traditional" and what is not.

If you are going to enforce ANY rule, it had better be a simple rule that anyone can understand.

You can argue, if you like, that he should have chosen a date earlier or later than 1960. (I'd vote for earlier.) But do you think it's "dumbass shit" to choose a date at all? No, I think it's brilliant.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:08 PM

As the foremost purveyor of dumbass shit around here, I know it when I see it!!!

Seriously Jim, maybe it will work but I doubt it.......and it will probably trigger some of this same kind of discussion. First thing you know a singing horse will show up and Bob's your uncle.

Spaw

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM

I can't wait until someone starts to sing a song, and someone else interrupts with "I'm sorry, but that song was written 50 years ago next Tuesday - you'll have to wait until next week to sing it here."

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:50 PM

I think it's a nice idea.

A game, a challenge, with an arbitary imposition of a rule. Why not?

No different from someone putting on a Christmas concert and stipulating everyone must sing a Christmas song, or a Valentine's Day gig wherein all must sing a love song.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:54 PM

Equally there is an enormous amount of music that is stylistically completely "traditional" (whichever tradition you are talking about) which is very much more recent in origin than 50 years.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: John P
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:59 PM

This is at the Folk Alliance, right? In a room dedicated to traditional folk music? Why is everyone talking about rock & roll and jazz?

Why would it be difficult to figure out what fits?

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: Joe_F
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:04 PM

Someone on the ng at first misinterpreted the rule as restricting the singer to songs that he or she *had known* for 50 years. I could even live with that for a few evenings.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: DebC
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:09 PM

Well, considering that *I* am 53 yeras old, I only have a couple of songs that qualify for the initial interpretation.

I will be in Andy's showcase at FA at 2 PM on Saturday and I can guarantee that all the songs I sing will be at least 50 years old.

Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: John P
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:33 PM

Someone on the ng at first misinterpreted the rule as restricting the singer to songs that he or she *had known* for 50 years. I could even live with that for a few evenings.

That would be interesting. At age 55, my repertoire would be quite limited . . .

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:34 PM

Ain't none of my business and never will be.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 11:07 PM

If it is your club, make a list of what songs you'll accept, and if someone wants to sing something else, let them plead their case. If they succeed, add their song(s) to the list.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 11:22 PM

"Can we all agree the 50 Rule is some real dumbass shit?"

nawww, 'spaw... it's too lenient.

I worked with some guys once who were talking about some radio station that played the "oldies", and they said that they remembered that *I* like them.

"Sure",I replied, "but 'oldies' in my crowd means before 1700."

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: banjoman
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 11:54 AM

What a load of tripe this 50 year rule is. The tradition is about the singing and not necessarily about the content. Any "Folk Club" that I have been involved with (and thats over 50 years) has always welcomed anybody who was prepared to sing even if the content didn't always fit with my idea of folk music. There are loads of great songs written in a traditional style which are much less than 50 years old.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 03:35 PM

I am either very annoyed or very amused at some of the comments here, I can't quite decide which.

If you know anything about Andy Cohen, you have a pretty good idea of what you're going to hear, and, if Andy is running an open performance event, you just naturally want to play a Gary Davis tune, or some such thing(well, I'm not sure I'd have the nerve to play a Gary Davis tune with him right there, but you know what I mean).   

It is really tedious to have someone like Banjoman pontificating about "The Tradition", when anyone who doesn't live under a rock (actually, a folk rock) knows that there are different traditions, vigorously pursued in different places, and that people get very picky about style, source, and age of music, because that is what makes different kinds of music different.

In Galax, at the Old Time Fiddler's Convention, they have this rule "No Bluegrass Banjo style picking to be in Old Time Band. No Old Time Banjo style picking to be in Bluegrass Band", though we all know that rule already--

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 03:43 PM

I remember playing an Irish pub, and being asked for traditional songs, so we did a few. The guy came up and said "No, real traditional songs". We eventually worked out that he meant country and western.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: mkebenn
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM

Dave, LOL Mike

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: John P
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 06:00 PM

My own definition of traditional music includes new songs that sound like traditional songs and have been absorbed into the playing of those who play music from whatever tradition they're in. This suits my notion of traditional music being a living, growing thing that is not just historical music. So many people, however, apparently can't tell the difference, or don't want there to be a difference, between traditional music and contemporary music that I can understand why someone would institute this rule. If I wanted a venue to have only traditional music I might do the same, as an easy-to-understand method of differentiation.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 08:44 PM

"when anyone who doesn't live under a rock (actually, a folk rock)"

That was good, M Ted.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 10:21 PM

Thanks. I do try to keep a sense of humor about this all.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: banjoman
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 10:09 AM

M.Ted I think its you who is doing the pontificating and probably only coming out from under your own personal rock to make such blatantly aggressive statements. I have never lived under a rock and have considerable experience of lots of the various traditions that make up the whole genre of folk music.For anyone to try and impose their own view of what the tradition is, is doing a serious injustice to the tradition of singing and playing.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: Mooh
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 11:50 AM

Reminds me of the old codger at church who was up in arms because we sang stuff written by people who weren't even dead yet.

Anyway, is it just to avoid the James Taylor and Cat Stevens cover syndrome? I would agree then. Or is it a general modern music bias?

Generally I don't rules or authority beyond what the Good Lord has given me.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 11:57 AM

Traditional? I have an idea of what it means to me, that it's very old stuff indeed. Certainly stuff that was around before people started thinking about 'what a folk song is?' Otherwise I think anything with a Copywrite attatched is not a folk song - if by 'folk song' we mean 'belonging to the folk'.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: John P
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 12:10 PM

I don't know if I would call it a bias -- it's just a desire to have a place where lovers of traditional music can hear traditional music. Sort of like a bluegrass room or a songwriting workshop. Give a specific audience something they want to hear. Why would someone want to play a long dreamy ballad at a rap venue?

Contrary to what SOP or banjoman would have us believe, traditional music -- in all it's many forms -- exists as a thing separate from other types of music. "Singing and playing" is an activity. Saying that singing and playing is a tradition and therefore anything that gets sung and played is traditional music is silly. In fairness to SOP, I think he's seeing the interconnectedness of all music and the fact that every form of music has some sort of history behind it. I agree with that, but it doesn't stop me from hearing different types of music and being able to say, "that's a rock song, that's baroque, that's flamenco, or that's a traditional French dance tune".

I, too, don't like rules about music making. But not playing in a venue that's booking a style of music you don't play just seems like common sense.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 12:21 PM

John P, I know.

All I want is a simple piece of wordage which does what it says on the tin and pragmatically conveys to other people what I mean when I use it - more or less - as most bits of wordage do. I don't want to work out how much bran is in a loaf of brown bread to see if it complies to the exact gram with officially determined freaking levels of branness before I buy it. But nor do i want white slice that's called brown bread either - unless I actually want white slice for butties. In which case I'm happy to eat white slice.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 12:38 PM

I mean - how is a simple poorly educated lass like meself supposed to contend with all the wadges of intellectualized doo-dah that goes down around here? Just as well it's not so complicated at 'burger-mac I-Tunes want fries with that' where the smart people hang out.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 06:12 PM

The only problem I can see with what Andy is trying to do is that some people will assume he has some idea that 50 years and older has something to do with the definition of traditional. I think the words 'vintage' and 'antique' can be defined in years but surely not 'traditional'.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 07:33 PM

I've had the impression that Folk Alliance is almost completely oriented toward singer-songwriter performances, so a restriction like this in at least one part of Folk Alliance, is encouraging to see.

-Joe-

(I hope you don't mind that I augmented the thread title)

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule - traditional rooms at Folk Alliance
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 10:36 PM

It pretty much cuts out singer songwriters altogether, in the sense in which I know the term. Except Woody Guthrie.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule - traditional rooms at Folk Allia
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 01:38 PM

Banjoman--Since you don't seem to know anything about Andy Cohen, here is something from his website.

"What I do mostly any more, is a sort of Country Blues 101. It_s broader than that, of course, covering material from before the twenties to about the fifties, and ranging over the several states to which Memphis is adjacent. I grew up during the Sixties Revival in Massachusetts, but I_m a Southern boy at heart. I made a point of acquainting myself with all the blues players I could, on record and in person. In my shows, I do material by Rev. Davis, John Hurt, Big Bill, Gus Cannon, Frank Stokes, Memphis Minnie, Bukka White, Barbecue Bob, Charlie Patton, Ted Bogan, Henry Spaulding, or any of a hundred other blues people."

A lot of us know who he is, since he's been performing for 40 years or so--he is certainly well know to many associated with the Folk Alliance, and, if you, or others who were quick to express vociferous opinions had been inclined, you could have learned as
much as you needed to know about him by simply Googling. Assuming, of course that you needed to know anything before giving you opinions.

If I offended you with either my amusement/annoyance or my use of the word "pontificate"--I was in a hurry, and couldn't think of a better way to describe what you were doing.

I suppose I should apologize to His Holiness, as well.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule - traditional rooms at Folk Alliance
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 02:40 PM

You all know perffectly well what Andy is striving to say.

The tradition is real, and the differences between it and the pap passing for folk now...

THIS POST CURTAILED !!!

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule - traditional rooms at Folk Allia
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:18 PM

There was also the "Traditional Music is Art" rule, which, simply stated, was that traditional music was anything that Art played.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule - traditional rooms at Folk Alliance
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:39 PM

Andy Cohen has done more for traditional music than all of the posters on Mudcat put together has ever thought of doing. Instead of sitting on his duff pontificating on what is and what isn't folk music, Andy is showing audiences the beauty and fun that is REAL folk music.

If you think for a minute that Andy is going to get hung up on checking the DNA of a song, you don't know Andy. He is going to share his considerable knowledge with others - and he WON'T act superior as some of our friends from across the pond who post here seem to do on a regular basis.

People like Andy, and a whole host of young people who are carrying on the tradition IN THEIR FASHION, are making a folk community that is stronger and more vibrant than anything that has been considered "folk" in the last 50 years.   They realize that folk music is not a museum piece and that you can explore and honor traditional music without making it out of touch with reality.

To get back to the last sentence in the original post - the only conversation that this thread should have created was one to give Andy credit for his work and to stimulate similar ideas for sharing this great music. Instead, the old codgers of folkdom have reared their ugly heads once again and shown why the "F" word has been such a turnoff. Andy is undoing 50 years of serious mistakes that people like some of our Mudcat posters continue to make.   We need more Andy Cohens who have a sense of honor and decency, something that is sorely lacking on Mudcat - particularly from certain people from the wrong side of the pond.

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule - traditional rooms at Folk Alliance
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 03:44 PM

BRAVO, Ron. BRAVO!

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule - traditional rooms at Folk Alliance
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:12 PM

Even if Andy Cohen sits at the right hand of god and is up for sainthood at Folk Alliance, 50 years is simply just another stricture which will ruin the term trad as other things ruined the term "folk." Like Bill said, maybe longer is better? Or not?

Let me just go with Arlo on the subject.   He kinda' puts the subject in the perspective where it oughta' be or at least one I like................Even if he's wrong!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule - traditional rooms at Folk Allia
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:16 PM

Thank you, Ron. Thank you, Ron, and thank you, Ron, again!!! It's nice to know that there is someone around here who cares about "the music", instead of just ranting about "The Tradition"--

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule - traditional rooms at Folk Alliance
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 04:29 PM

He is clearly a control freak, and an absolute pratt!

Subject: RE: 50 Year Rule - traditional rooms at Folk Alliance
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 05:32 PM

Language usage shifts. But the material I'm interested in stays static. I don't care what terms others use to define the music that interests them, I'd just like to be able to use a term defining the music that interests me without too much confusion. I don't use 'folk' because today it means something different to what it once did. I use 'traditional songs' purely because I (obviously wrongly) assumed most people still agree on what that means. I guess it doesn't though, so those of us interested in umm very old songs, will have to coin another fresh term to describe them. Maybe I'll resort to SO'P's rather longwinded but descriptive English Speaking Traditional Folk Song and Balladry from now on. Gonna be a bugger for creating threads on Mudcat though!