Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)

Subject: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: GUEST,An X-Seaman
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 04:59 PM

Can anyone give some background info on a drinking song about the pub known as The Old Dunn Cow? I found it on an old Lou Killen album (his first?) called "Lou Killen Sea Chanteys" produced by Pat Sky in 1968. Our group recorded it under the name "McIntyre" on our first album.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM

1893 Harry Wincott, sung by Harry Champion, also Elsa Lancaster. according to Kilgarriff.
Proper title 'When the Old Dun Cow Caught Fire'

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: Beer
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 05:14 PM

Look Brendan Nolan up on the net and drop him a line. I'm sure he would be more than pleased to help if the answer is not forthcoming here.
He also does a wonderful version of it.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:23 AM

More than once recorded by Bob & Ron Copper ~ on eg Banks of Claudy, Folktrax 1985; tho more of a music-hall song than their usual rural repertoire.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:41 AM

We've looked at this one a few times over the years. Try this thread for openers!

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:02 PM

Further to Coppers' version: they do not seem, although they recorded it more than once, to have regarded it as one of the 'family' songs ~ it does not, e.g., so far as I can ascertain, appear in any of Bob's song books, books about the family or about his own collecting, &c. I suspect they just sang it occsionally as a bit of fun.

I have a vague recollection of having once asked Bob about this and received some such reply: but it is just possible that I would just like to think I did.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM

John Copper sang a very animated version after the launch of the Young Coppers' album at Cecil Sharp House a couple of years ago. So it's still in the family.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: skipy
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:24 PM

Enysbury Giant once sang it at an RAF folk competition at RAF BZN in about 1978, anyone know what happened to them? Are any of them catters?
Skipy

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: Celtaddict
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:51 PM

'Dun' (with one N) means grey-brown (or in a horse, having the mane and tail darker than the body), from Middle English and probably a Gaelic root.

Does anyone know anything about the author named above, Henry Wincott? The song has become well-entrenched (at least in the U.S.) in the Irish repertoire, but the use of 'somebody shouted 'MacIntyre'' as rhyming slang for 'fire' has puzzled me.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:08 PM

1867-1947
Harry Wincott was one of the world's best known music hall comic song writers.
He was born Alfred James Walden in Camberwell, London the son of Alfred and Charlotte Walden. ---


from website www.harrywincott.co.uk, where all the info you could wish.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:40 AM

I've been told the 'McIntyre' shout is the invention of Cliff in the Liverpool Spinners.

Don't let 'em in 'till it's all mopped up, somebody shouted... McIntyre.

I suspect that there should be a 'to' where the dots are. That's the only way it makes sense. Never seen it written down, though.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:06 AM

If you check the website on the author I give two posts back, you will find that the lines are clearly shown there as ~

"Well don't let em in till it's all mopped up
Somebody shouted, "MacIntyre"

(This an actual copy&paste)

So there it is written down. I have never made out what this bit means: but that is certainly the way it is.

Don't believe everything you hear.

Subject: Add: Correction The Old Dun Cow
From: IanC
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:07 AM

I notice that they can't spell Maria in the DT.

;-)

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:20 AM

In the original version, the line , which makes perfect sense, is
'Don't let em in till its all mopped up
Somebody said to mcIntyre'

    It is not recorded that this word is repeated by the chorus.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:32 AM

What do you mean "The original version", Tug? The original version, as written by Harry Wincott, is as I have quoted it above, 23 feb 1008pm, according to his website. Wherein, BTW, IanC, the name is spelt 'Moriah'.

I am not defending these usages, simply reporting how they appear in the author's text as shown there.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:35 AM

... & it is NOT 'McIntyre' there,NB, but 'MacIntyre'.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: pavane
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:23 AM

MacIntyre - maybe cockney rhyming slang?

Was it the Dun Cow in the Old Kent Road? That is now a vet's - quite appropriate I suppose.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: Celtaddict
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:58 AM

Thanks, MtheGM, I should have googled him. It does have a music-hall ring to it. What puzzled me is that the 'MacIntyre' certainly seems to be rhyming slang for 'Fire' but the rhyming slang is not particularly Irish; usually Cockney or (in my experience) Australian. Perhaps in America there is a tendency for many drinking songs to make it into the 'Irish' song repertoire. Pubs certainly seem to be the main place I hear most of these songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM

This, celtaddict, is an entirely Cockney song ~ written for the great Cockney music-hall comedian Harry Champion [best known for such as Any Old Iron, Boiled Beef & Carrots, I'm Enery the 8th I Am, &c], by his friend Harry Wincott, prolific writer of Cockney music-hall songs. Where on earth did you get idea there was anything "Irish" about it?

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:45 AM

My dear old bro-in-law rarely needs much encouragement to deliver an all action version of The Old Dun Cow. The reason you won't find it in any of Bob's books is that although it resides proudly handwritten in Jim Copper's song book, the publishers of Bob's books found copyright issues too difficult to overcome. I know it sound incredible now but 40 years ago apparently there were problems.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:14 PM

That's very interesting, Jon. How come they didn't sing any other music-hall pieces? Or that no others appear to have penetrated the wonderful family tradition? Why just that particular one? And where did Jim get it to copy into his book, as the words Bob & Ron sang were, to my recollection, pretty well word-for-word the ones printed on the Harry Wincott website as sung by Harry Champion. (Except, as I remember it, 'someone', rather than 'somebody' shouted...) Did he have a sheet-music copy that he just copied into his book; or what? Do you, or John, or any of you, know?

Best to you all ~ Michael

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:39 PM

Mike, there are a plethora of Music Hall songs in the repertoire -'The Horse the Missus dries the clothes on', 'Corduroy'. 'It won't last very very long', 'The Golden Dustman', 'My Uncle Jimmy', 'The Veteran', 'Scapegrace', 'There was an old farmer who had an old sow' and many more. We're pretty sure that Jim Copper an inveterate music hall attendee introduced them (don't forget we had music hall in nearby Brighton) and he also bought sheet music as well. These appear in Jim's 1933 songbook together with all the old traditional 'hits' but they are absent from what Jim described as 'The BBC songbook' which ONLY included traditional material and reflected those which that august organisation wished to hear at the time of the early broadcasts on Country Magazine in the the 1950's. Hope that helps.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:46 PM

Yes, thanks very much, Jon. I hadn't realised there were two books. Which was the one Bob used to take to gigs and he and Ron would keep open as they sang, so that, he told me once, there would be no risk of their ever throwing one another with a slight alteration in the text as they sang? I remember Bob once let me hold that one and look thru it, which felt a bit like unrolling one of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:47 PM

It would have been the postwar BBC book which was taken everywhere! Now safely and securely retired. I think PB had the same reaction as you...

Of course the Holy Grail (whilst we're on religious metaphors) is Brasser's 1924 songbook of which we only have a facsimile which (to us) is absolutely priceless.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:10 PM

Ah, thanks, Jon. Where is the original of Brasser's. Is that the famous one with the song in it called "Here's A Dew Sweet Lovely Nancy"?

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:49 PM

Yes that's the one which also has "my grandfathers used to sing this song". It sits here at home.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: Celtaddict
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:00 AM

MtheGM: I am interested in learning the background of songs that I like; as I noted above, I did not think it was Irish but it seems to be a part of the standard Irish repertoire in the U.S. and I wondered if there is any reason for that other than that Irish songs are often sung in pubs and so many drinking songs make it into the 'Irish' repertoire.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dunn Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 10:12 PM

Thanks for clarifying, Celtaddict.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:17 AM

Sorry M, not been on line for a bit, for a discussion of Dun Cow, including quite a lot of material and some verses not included in the
Wincott webpage see
http://www.pbm.com/pipermail/minstrel/1996/007288.html

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: Noreen
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:39 AM

http://www.pbm.com/pipermail/minstrel/1996/007288.html

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:29 PM

MtheGM,
The version you quote does inded appear ona website, but appears yo have been copied from elsewhere. Don't YOU believe everything you read.
This fromm an old thread.
WHEN THE OLD DUN COW CAUGHT FIRE
Words and Music by Harry Wincott, c 1893,
As Performed by Harry Champion 1911.(Born William Henry Crump,1865)
Old tyme music hall classic.
"To be sung with the rapidity of a machine gun burst." Entered the folk repertoire through the singing Copper family of Rotttingdean, Sussex, England.
-from Chris Simmons

Some pals and I in a public house
Were playing dominoes last night,
When all of a sudden in the potman runs
With a face just like a kite.
"What's up?" said Jones. "Why you silly old fool,
Have you seen old Aunt Maria?"
"Aunt be blowed," then the potman cried.
"The blooming pub's on fire!"
"On fire!" said Brown. "What a bit of luck!
Come along with me," shouts he.
"Down in the cellar if the fire ain't there,
We'll have a fair old spree."
So we all goes down 'long with good old Brown.
Booze we couldn't miss.
We hadn't been ten minutes there,
When I was just like this.

CHO: And there was Brown upside down
Licking up the whisky off the floor.
"Booze, booze, booze!" Then the firemen cried
As they got knocking down the door.
"Don't let 'em in 'till it's all mopped up!"
Someone said to MacIntyre.
So we all got blue blind paralytic drunk
When the Old Dun Cow caught fire.

Old Johnson flew to a port wine tub
And he gave it just a few hard knocks.
He then starts taking off his pantaloons.
Ditto his boots and socks.
"Hold hard," said Snooks. "If you want to wash your feet,
There's a barrel full of four ale here.
Don't put your trotters in the port wine, Jack,
When there's some old stale beer."
Just then there was such a dreadful crash,
Half the blooming roof gave way.
We got drowned with a fireman's hose,
But still we were all gay,
For we found some sacks and some old tin tacks,
Shoved ourselves inside.
We all got drinking good old scotch
Till we got bleary eyed.

We got so drunk that we did not know
The blooming cellar had caught fire.
Poor old Jones had the D.T.'s bad
And wanted to retire.
"There's Old Nick," said another poor chap,
"And he's poking the blooming fire."
"That's no bogy. It's a fireman, Tom,"
"At least" said MacIntyre.
"Let's get out of here," said a blind eyed boy.
"It's getting rather hot down here."
"Don't be a fool," said a boozy bloke.
"We haven't drank all the beer!"
So we filled our hats and we drank like cats
'Midst the flames and smoke.
I had to take my trousers off.
I thought that should "croak."

Spoken:

At last the firemen got inside
And found us all dead drunk.
But like all true heroes, there they stood.
They did not do a bunk.
They saw the booze upon the floor
And gave a sudden yell.
They took their helmets off and then
Upon their knees they fell.
"At last! At last!" the firemen cried,
"At last we know the news!"
"Come on! Come on!" us lads all cried.
"Come on and have a booze!"

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 11:18 PM

Thank you TtC. No, indeed, I don't believe all I read ~~ esp with regard to folklore versions. But I certainly recall a vinyl record with this on it as a track by Bob & Ron Copper, in which they certainly sang the "Someone [or somebody] shouted 'MacIntyre" version which has always mystified me ~~ whence topic of this thread, whose title has been recently altered for reasons unclear to me ~~ WHY, Joe?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: Reinhard
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 02:45 PM

Would that be Peter Kennedy's LP from 1960, "A Jug of Punch: Broadside Ballads Old and New"? Bob Copper sings the first two verses above with slight variations, and the chorus has the line "Someone shouted MacIntyre".

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 03:40 PM

No ~~ the one I recall was definitely Bob & Ron Copper.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: Reinhard
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 03:57 PM

Well, the song is credited in the liner notes to "Bob Copper accompanied by Peter Kennedy (banjo) with Ron Copper", the latter joining in on the chorus. Sorry for having been imprecise.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:21 PM

No ~~ no accompaniment on the one I remember; just Bob & Ron singing in harmony thruout as they almost always did. I think it was on some sort of compilation record which I had borrowed from the library which is why I can't now put a hand on it. I do know it dates from before the A Song For Every Season 4-record compilation, which was purportedly a complete record of the family's repertoire, as I remember thinking it wasn't that complete as it only included the seasonal, i.e traditional songs, not marginals like The Old Dun Cow which I knew by then to be part of the actual corpus of songs they did. {Cf Jon Dudley's reply to me above of 25 Feb 0139 PM}

~Michael~

Subject: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: GUEST,John Orford
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 09:18 AM

It's been pointed out that McIntyre is rhyming slang for fire and perhaps this is how it got in. But they wouldn't have shouted "fire" when the firemen were already there, so "Arry's version makes more sense. It doesn't matter how you spell MacIntyre - it was originally Mac an-t-Saoir anyway.

What strikes me as amusing is to find dear decent Bob Copper singing such a song. Suppose his pub had caught fire and his regulars began looting it - you can imagine his disgust at such behaviour.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 09:40 AM

Having lost a couple of dear ones to alcoholism, I don't find "We all got blue-blind paralytic drunk" to be that amusing. To me it's disgusting, as you say, but for different reasons.

However, I'm intrigued by the tune. There's a MIDI of it here:

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/song-midis/Old_Dun_Cow.htm

In a way, it resembles a Playford country dance from the 1600's. It doesn't have the tonality I would associate with 1893. (I would associate 1893 with 'Bicycle Built for Two' or 'Man on the Flying Trapeze'.)

I almost could work the tune up as a faux early-music piece for my band of friends, but no. Too many of them are recovering alcoholics. They have been to the lip of the abyss, and it's nothing to joke about.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 12:10 PM

Indeed, Leeneia, I know just where you are coming from. However, we need to recognise that, as lovers of folksong/music-hall &c, we must accept the earlier convention that drunkenness is a huge, enjoyable joke, in exactly the same way as we have to adjust our today's expectations to all the sexism & racism with which the genres abound. It's one of those leaps of historical imagination we have to keep making.

But, I reiterate, I find drunkenness just as funny as you do ~~ i.e. not in the least...

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 02:09 PM

Thanks for your kind words, Michael.

What do you think about the tune? Can't you visualize a contra dance to it?

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 04:09 PM

I agree it is an interesting tune; more like a hymn tune than music-hall and little like the sort of thing Harry Champion generally used to sing. Perhaps a formal sort of dance might be performed to it; but being no sort of dancer myself, I have no strong opinions on that aspect.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:14 AM

A hymn tune? That's in interesting thought.

It does remind me of the Welsh tune, Aberystwyth, which you can hear playing here:

http://www.hymntime.com/tch/htm/h/o/holylord.htm

As for the mysterious Mr. MacIntyre, I think it's interesting that the sort of people who would sing a song like this have voted for rhythm over reason. By that I mean, that they have excised the t' from 'somebody shouted t' MacIntyre' in order to have the song scan better.

Also, to be able to shout back at the singer, albeit in a jolly way.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: mikesamwild
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:55 AM

It has elements of Princess Royal in either major or minor form. That goes back as far as Carolan at least

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 10:10 AM

Yes, indeed; now pointed out I can well hear a relationship with Princess Royal, esp the opening phrase.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: mikesamwild
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 01:08 PM

I often wondered if it 'back inside!'

Subject: RE: Origins: The Old Dun Cow (McIntyre!)
From: GUEST,Peterr
Date: 31 Jan 20 - 05:45 AM

I was looking for the original as sung by Harry Champion, found it on YouTube, with words almost exactly as posted by Tug the Cox above. Also delighted to find out that the version as usually sung these days is from the Coppers - I had wondered how and when it got changed. Long live the oral tradition!